Griso instrument fogging (again)

[jlburgess]

I know lots of people have tried various dehumidifying strategies to keep the instruments clear.  Mine has fogged up yet again after a rainy spell and is working fine (I'm on the 2nd one) but I was wondering if anyone with a later model Griso say '14 or newer has experienced this problem?  Is it a design flaw that has possibly been updated?  I only get this in the winter or sunny days when sunlight directly hits the instrument cluster.  Just kind of annoying. Thx!

[tris]

AFAIK its a "feature Sir and they all do it" 

Moto will be along shortly as (IMO) he did the definitive work when fixing his

I went a slightly different way and improved the ventilation - I wasn't prepared to do the surgery needed to do the Moto solution.

I did find that one on the little vents in the back wasn't open and after opening that up and a couple of other things it hasn't misted up

[Moto]

I know lots of people have tried various dehumidifying strategies to keep the instruments clear.  Mine has fogged up yet again after a rainy spell and is working fine (I'm on the 2nd one) but I was wondering if anyone with a later model Griso say '14 or newer has experienced this problem?  Is it a design flaw that has possibly been updated?  I only get this in the winter or sunny days when sunlight directly hits the instrument cluster.  Just kind of annoying. Thx!

Your question is a really good one, and I hope those with later models can answer it directly. To emphasize it again:

Have 2014 and later Griso owners seen any mist on  the inside of the dash when the weather is cold and sunny and the dash is exposed to the sun?   

   * * *

I doubt the ventilation has been changed. If it has, it would have to be apparent from inspecting the outside of the dash's case. Maybe AF1 could look at a recent spare and tell you. I'm pretty sure the part number hasn't changed.

I don't want to distract from your excellent question, but I will repeat some earlier conclusions about all this anyway.

The mist is a potentially serious symptom rather than just an annoyance. The water that appears on the inside of the instrument on a cold day in direct sunlight is just a visible sign of the real problem, which is what the water was up to before it evaporated and recondensed where you could see it. Unfortunately, it had been condensed in a lower part of the case, and probably on the printed circuit board (PCB), whenever the temperature was below the dew point.

When it is on the PCB, water picks up contaminants from the soluble glues used to attach components, and then acts both as a weak acid and as a much better electrical conductor than it was when it condensed as pure water. As an acid it eats the PCB, while as a conductor it can allow electrolysis to begin between any live circuits of opposite polarity, with the potential of creating a short-circuiting dendrite bridge over time.

I happen to have rolled my Griso out of the garage in cold, sunny weather this Saturday, and saw the diagnostic condensation in the dash. This occurred because the dash had sat all winter in my unheated garage, exposed to ambient humidity. Saturday night I hooked up my desiccation pump for a few hours. The next morning there was again sunlight and cool conditions, but no condensation. So such a pump works. I think I might go ahead and install it permanently, though I'm mostly relying on a conformal coating on the PCB.

I have one particular recommendation that I am not sure I made before: DISCONNECT your battery over the winter. The reason is that electrolysis can't occur without a current, and there is a continual current going to the PCB unless the battery is disconnected. The winter is a very long period to leave your dash needlessly exposed to this danger. Of course, disconnecting the battery can't help against the acid attack.

I personally think it would have been easier for the manufacturer to begin coating the PCB at some point than to change the ventilation, but don't have any reason to think they did. (The coating would be more effective, too.)

Good luck!

Moto

[jlburgess]

So nobody has a 2014 or newer that is fogging...crickets. ...?

It got really bad today.  It's obviously sucking in damp air over the winter and clears up in summer.  Why is the membrane in the middle?  Wouldn't it be better higher up where the moisture can escape when the air temperature rises and humidity decreases?  It's looking bad enough right now that another dash failure might be imminent.

[Pisano]

upload image gif


Thats my 2014 fogging up in the bottom right corner.  It's still under warrenty but im not sure if its enough to complain about. 

What do y'all think?

[jlburgess]

That's how it starts.  Thanks for the pic.  Was your bike in a heated garage over the winter?

[zebraranger]

I have a 2016 Griso and after a year and a half, I haven't experienced any fogging.

[AH Fan]

2015 Rosso Griso......... after all these years on the coast have not had any fogging?
Machine is kept at room temp. when not in use but is also not ridden in the rain. just an FYI is all.

Ciao

[yogidozer]

try this to find the location of the leak. push a small amount of air into where the speedo cable goes. spray/brush a watery/soap solution to see where the bubbles form. once you find that, dab some clear silicone to seal it.
you can use a syringe hose to push air (also good to bleed brakes) if you use a compressor, be very careful

[JACoH]

Is there room to hide a small packet of desiccant near there to absorb the moisture?  Those things come in medicine bottles, electronics parts, farkle boxes, etc.

[Pisano]

Was your bike in a heated garage over the winter?

I took delivery of the new bike in spring 2017 and apparently the bike was stored in heated garage and showroom from date of manufacture up until delivery.

I also rode in the rain a few times.

If your saying thats how it all starts then I will notify my dealer.

Thanks
Norm F.

[Moto]

I took delivery of the new bike in spring 2017 and apparently the bike was stored in heated garage and showroom from date of manufacture up until delivery.

I also rode in the rain a few times.

If your saying thats how it all starts then I will notify my dealer.

Thanks
Norm F.

I doubt that will result in any useful action. The fogging is a symptom of a design decision, and all the unmodified Griso dashes should fog the clear cover or lens in the right conditions. Those conditions are: water or moist air inside, a quick heating of the interior by sunlight through the lens, and cold or very cool weather keeping the lens cool. In those conditions the heating will vaporize water inside that will then condense on the lens.

Just because a Griso dash has never shown fogging is no assurance that there is no hidden moisture problem inside.

The dash is designed to be open to the atmosphere via two (??) small ports, that are internally baffled (but contain no membranes, btw). This is necessary because the dash PCB has an atmospheric pressure sensor on it that is used to regulate the engine's injection timing and duration. Seems dumb, but there it is (I've photographed it).

I could write a book on the topic by now....

Good luck.

Moto

[jlburgess]

Moto, it's been a couple of years since I took the instrument panel out but I seem to recall a plastic cap and under that is a white thingy I assumed was the breathing membrane.  Is that not the case?

[Moto]

Moto, it's been a couple of years since I took the instrument panel out but I seem to recall a plastic cap and under that is a white thingy I assumed was the breathing membrane.  Is that not the case?

I don't remember such a thing. Where was the "plastic cap"? How big do you recall it was? How big was the membrane?

Breathing goes through the little ports on the bottom of the plastic case of the dash instrument. At first they looked like solid protrusions, maybe remnants of the plastic casting operation. Each is a cylinder about 3/16" in diameter and the same height. But blowing through them proves they are ports, and a closer examination reveals the half-moon shape of the first baffle in each. The instrument's case is not otherwise enclosed, but sits in a flow of air.

I didn't find any membranes at all. I also read enough about such membranes to understand there aren't any that can actually exclude water molecules in the gaseous state -- they are just too small, smaller than the oxygen and nitrogen (O2 and N2) molecules of air, even though they are made up of three atoms (H2O).

I did disassemble the dash right down to its PCB, which I then took out and coated.

Moto

[jlburgess]

Sounds like I forgot what it looked like and I need to check the lower vents and maybe blow some hot air through there?

[Moto]

Sounds like I forgot what it looked like and I need to check the lower vents and maybe blow some hot air through there?

That could help. The drier the better. It's a chronic condition, though, that will tend to keep recurring. I really don't know the prognosis for any particular set of symptoms. I went overboard in fixing up mine, maybe simpler fixes would work too.

[jlburgess]

Moto,
I just pulled the dash off and the cap I was talking about was siliconed in on this replacement dash.  I'm failing to see where the two bottom vents are though.










PS, I also found your dissertation on the issue only to find photobucket pics not showing up.  I guess I should stop at this point and wait for advice.  I suspect the membrane I'm speaking of is the air pressure sensor?  I could try to pry the silver bezel off but that sounds risky.  I don't see the two false posts that are vents either...

[jlburgess]

I'm about 5 minutes away from drilling an extremely small hole in the lower right corner of this thing to allow condensation a place to go.  Obviously Digitek knows there's a problem since they started applying silicone to the air pressure sensor cap in about 2010.  I have been to serious high altitude since this has been installed including Mount Ranier, Hood, and Lassen and it ran perfectly.

[jlburgess]

Here is said tiny hole.  It can be plugged at anytime with tape or a dab of silicone.  Now I can blow some warm dry air into the problem spot.  I used a bit of painters tape to get an x to mark the precise spot.

[Moto]

Moto,
I just pulled the dash off and the cap I was talking about was siliconed in on this replacement dash.  I'm failing to see where the two bottom vents are though.










PS, I also found your dissertation on the issue only to find photobucket pics not showing up.  I guess I should stop at this point and wait for advice.  I suspect the membrane I'm speaking of is the air pressure sensor?  I could try to pry the silver bezel off but that sounds risky.  I don't see the two false posts that are vents either...

JL,

You've a got new model of dash there, a new discovery! Here's a photo of my 2007 model, which shows the two small posts that are really baffled vents, along the bottom edge. (You can also see some circular scars caused by my experiments with various types of glues during my project.)






The circular cap on your dash, and the material underneath it, are evidently a new venting arrangement. Is this an OEM replacement, from Guzzi? I guess it must be. The new venting is not the air pressure sensor, which is only about 1/4" across and is mounted directly on the PCB. Here is a photo of it:





EDIT: I am not so sure about my interpretation. I'll cross out some stuff and follow up with a new post.

The new breather on your replacement dash replaced the old baffled vents, and was intended to allow the air pressure sensor on the PCB to still function, while solving the moisture problem, I have no doubt. Assuming it passes some air, it fulfills the first function.

However, your own experience with fogging shows that the new breather does not solve the moisture problem, just as I would have predicted. The reason is that no membranes can stop the migration of gaseous water molecules while still passing air (nitrogen and oxygen), as I mentioned earlier. (Water molecules actually pass through solid plastic, though at a slow rate!)

This is a sad state of affairs indeed. It suggests that the technicians that re-engineered the dash didn't do their homework.

I mentioned in my past "dissertation" that the original dash setup showed signs of another feature for moisture control that was not fully implemented. This was the provision of two ducts -- tubelike features -- molded into the housing that carries the dash. These are directly beneath the two small ports, and were apparently intended to direct smaller tubes away from the dash, with the intention of some kind of venting. In fact I used these ducts for exactly that purpose when making my desiccating breather. Whoever provided those ducts may have had a better understanding of what it would take to control the moisture, but, again, that project was evidently abandoned.

There is no easy fix for this problem. The ineffectiveness of the new membrane-containing port on your dash only proves it. Still, it is a fascinating development, showing that someone at Digitek (the Italian producer of the dash) is admitting the problem by designing a "solution." I suppose someone who could really press the issue might use the new design as evidence in making a case that Guzzi should replace defective dashes on their own nickel.

Your idea of getting rid of the water via a small hole is good. You might want to provide a way to apply air pressure through an additional hole to speed up the process.

Moto

P.S. Reading back through your earlier posts, I'm not sure I understood what you were saying about the membrane and cap. The membrane-containing port is a new feature. You're saying that it was completely sealed by a siliconed-on cap? The membrane was intended to stop moisture, I'm sure -- it's not a sensor. Maybe the added cap was a second, desperate modification, admitting the failure of the first one. Or maybe there is a designed-in way for the cap to allow air to get to the membrane, so that it is not really a second modification?

EDIT/P.P.S. Sorry not to have replied sooner.

[Moto]

I had another thought or two when I woke up this morning.

I wondered whether that new cap might be positioned directly above the air pressure sensor, perhaps as a filtered vent intended to provide ambient pressure only to the sensor itself. But looking at a photo of my PCB, the sensor is in a different location. It's the small grayish cap (with four cut-out corners) to the upper left of the white circular cover in this photo:





I doubt the sensor has changed position on the PCB.

It also occurred to me that the membrane in your photo may actually be a desiccant bag. (Can you feel a power or beads right behind it?) If it is, then the desiccant has probably become exhausted since your installation of the replacement eight years ago. (Was your dash fog-free for the first few years?) My own desiccant supply is much larger, and is frequently in need of replacement or recharging. If this is a desiccant, the redesign may or may not have included an air path breathing through it, for the sensor.

Finally, it also occurs to me that the redesign may have included adding a conformal coating to the PCB, in which case your replacement dash would be in little danger of failure from moisture, and the desiccant or membrane would have been intended more as a cosmetic thing, to reduce the unsightly fogging on the inside of the speedometer face. Conformal coatings are a bit hard to see. Many have a component that will light up under a fluorescent lamp, just so the coverage can be checked, but I don't think that is always true for industrially-applied coatings.

At least Digitek tried!

[jlburgess]

Well that is certainly interesting that your dash is different.  The first one I had failed in 2010 (digital display died) and this was the replacement by the dealer.  The first one was also this same design on my bike so the "fixes" had no impact.  I think it might have been fog-free for about 8 months or so.  The only difference with this one was that cap had silicone around it from the factory so I bet they knew there was still an issue.  I made sure it never got wet when washing the bike and only rode in the rain once unintentionally.  I agree it isn't water intrusion but vapor intrusion.  I like your second vent hole idea.  I'll blow some air in there and set it in the sun and see what happens...
Thanks!

[jlburgess]

Success!  Well so far anyway.  After drilling the vent hole and blowing air in from a hair dryer last night I put the dash in the sun for a couple of hours with the vent hole facing up.  No fogging. 
Usually there would be a big wet spot in the lower right corner by now but it seems to be fine.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Moto,
        I think I might have asked before (its now more important since I have acquired a 2007 Griso)

What do you think of completely sealing the dash and tubing the pressure off to a slack diaphragm, I'm thinking
something like a balloon that can compensate for temperature/elevation changes.
Perhaps some desicant for good measure.

So next sunny day I should wheel the bike outside to see if I get any condensation, perhaps cool the plastic with ice or one of those refrigerant spray cans?

Thanks for all the work you have done on this.

[jlburgess]

I don't think the dash can be completely sealed.  It probably won't be tight around the connector pins even if you got a tight seal everywhere else which seems unlikely.

[jlburgess]

Well bad news is the fogging is back.  Good news is I know why.
After sitting in direct sunlight for about 5 hours, within 5 minutes of being connected electronically, the moisture returned.  It has to be the heat generated on the PCB.  I didn't even start the bike.  I programmed the clock and turned the key back off and it's back again.  Crazy!

[jlburgess]

Update: now that I have a vent hole I was able to blow hot air up there and on the faceplate then the water droplets vanished.  Fingers crossed!  Perhaps that is a desiccant pack in the back of the type 2 dash?  It's obviously vented and now that the silicone seal is out this may provide an exit or capture spot for moisture.  We shall see....

[jlburgess]

upload image gif


Thats my 2014 fogging up in the bottom right corner.  It's still under warrenty but im not sure if its enough to complain about. 

What do y'all think?

Based on what I just found I would recommend a warranty claim when convenient in the event it does fail later.

[Moto]

Moto,
        I think I might have asked before (its now more important since I have acquired a 2007 Griso)

What do you think of completely sealing the dash and tubing the pressure off to a slack diaphragm, I'm thinking
something like a balloon that can compensate for temperature/elevation changes.
Perhaps some desicant for good measure.

So next sunny day I should wheel the bike outside to see if I get any condensation, perhaps cool the plastic with ice or one of those refrigerant spray cans?

Thanks for all the work you have done on this.

This was my first plan for my bike, but I gave it up after not being able to design anything I thought would really work.  Maybe a slack metal foil would do.

I tried to seal up my dash to make it airtight, which I gauged by pressurizing it with a balloon. My first try held air more than hour as I recall, but the second attempt was worse.

I think it would be a challenge to completely seal the dash, with or without a diaphragm, but not impossible. This could be an excellent solution if you could craft it.

[Moto]

Well bad news is the fogging is back.  Good news is I know why.
After sitting in direct sunlight for about 5 hours, within 5 minutes of being connected electronically, the moisture returned.  It has to be the heat generated on the PCB.  I didn't even start the bike.  I programmed the clock and turned the key back off and it's back again.  Crazy!

I think the heat is coming from the sun, not the electronics. My dash shows the same symptom in sunlight, on a cold morning, without turning the ignition on at all.