Vintage Black & Decker valve grinder

[SED]

The level of expertise on this forum is amazing so I am saddling you with another, nearly Guzzi-free quest for help...

Lets get the Guzzi stuff out of the way asap.  Asked around our club to borrow a valve seat grinder to set the valves deeper in the head of the Bacon Slicer (seats have been welded and re-cut, but not deep enough so the rocker geometry is off) and an old Gent offered to loan his, then decided to sell the whole kaboodle!   (at a very nice price - Guzzi-content)

If you have an 11mm pilot for a Sioux valve seat grinder, or 10 & 11mm collets to fit a B&D valve refacer from the 1920s or know where I can get them - let me know.   

End potential Guzzi content...

I think this is from the '20s.  No model number.  Apparently there is a model Number 45 with serial numbers that start with A.  This serial number starts with B and has a movable left-side table top (on which the valve chuck and smaller motor sit).  It's missing the lever to move the table (it clamps to the 5/8" shaft on the left side of the base).

   


I've only found photos of 2 more on the interblower, one having another "B" serial number.  Model B?

It works, but don't grab the base are you'll get a shock!  It needs the lever mentioned above, the motor shaft bushings need to be replaced.  The valve motor has the wrong belt and probably wrong pulley. 

Do any of you have pictures or know where to find parts so I can refurbish this one?   

Also got these.  The Sioux motor works.  The B&D does not (yet) but it's 100 years old!!!

         




 

[SED]

Back story is that Jim's father bought a garage in south Seattle in 1946 - Foster Service - and the valve grinder was older then.  Jim and his family lived in one end of the same building as the garage.  He and his brothers would wash windshields, pump gas (he still has their old hand-pump, glass-top pump) and eventually graduate up to lube jobs and valve grinding.  He became an engineer.  Eventually the garage was razed to make way for I-5.

[Chuck in Indiana]

With your rapidly improving lathe skilz, you can make the bushings.  Sioux stuff rocks. Nice find..

[dxhall]

A word of caution on these old valve grinders.

The accuracy of these machines depends in large part upon the mechanism which holds the valve stem.  Old machines hold the stem in what is basically a drill chuck.  Newer machines hold the stem in a collet.

The TIR (total indicated runout) of the chuck machines is something like .04.  The TIR of collet machines is something like .004.

If you are looking for ultimate performance, chuck machines are not the way to go.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Shirley  it would be possible to put a modern accurate chuck on it?

[SED]

A word of caution on these old valve grinders.

The accuracy of these machines depends in large part upon the mechanism which holds the valve stem.  Old machines hold the stem in what is basically a drill chuck.  Newer machines hold the stem in a collet.

This is a collet machine.  Though there's probably plenty of runout other places.  This one came with 5/16, 11/32 and 3/8 though I'd love to be able to find 10mm and 11mm collets for this one but seems like a long-shot.  And I don't need them yet.  I have 2 smaller collets to trade. 

[SED]

With your rapidly improving lathe skilz, you can make the bushings.  Sioux stuff rocks. Nice find..

Yes, everything looks rebuildable and robust so hoping to find or make everything it needs.  Glad to hear about Sioux.  Thinking about turning an 11mm pilot to use it on the slicer head...

[Mike Tashjian]

Those Collets look like 5C's.  If they are, you should be able to find them at any machine tool site.  If they are the 3C they are a bit harder to find but around.  And you can always make your smaller collets into the bigger ones by machining and or grinding. Bushings can be turned and the larger collets can hold them to get almost any smaller size.  If they are some oddball size, new ones can be made if you can't find any or just want them in a particular size.  Good collets run within a few tenths(.0001) and a good chuck should be just a few thousandth's(.001). A good sketch of the pilot with dimensions and I am sure it can be made with no problem.   Mike

[Don G]

Sioux pilots are not a problem, lot of 7/16 pilots in the world, under and over by .001's, browse e-bay. Also check the run out in your chuck and ways, you will be surprised how far she may be out!  DonG

[SED]

Thanks guys, great info. 

I need to do some more measuring, but it looks like it might be a 4C collet - it has a 15/16" body diameter.

Pilot diameter is .385" but I've already found the 11mm version at https://www.cylinderheadsupply.com/t433.html

Would love to find an original handle, but I've got a spare kick start lever that might work with a shim.   

[SED]

Reviving this one because I finally have torn into the B&D valve grinder.

Mostly the electrical was shorting out and it was horribly dirty.

Wiring insulation had turned to goo where it was attacked by oil.  5/16" round brushes are unobtanium (any clues?).  A misplaced insulating washer and worn brushes caused arcing a pitting of the commutator rings in the motor.  (the black circular plate should be shiny brass!)  E-8 is the same bearing in the GTV's Marelli dynamo!

               



Disassemble and clean.  It was originally painted dark gray and at some point someone painted it red.  Just happened to have some Chevy engine paint in a spray can...





Assembly is way more fun than cleaning!  Only thing missing is the lever to move the left table - originals were cast iron and broke easily.  Anyone have a kickstart lever to fit a 5/8" shaft? 

           


Had bought the wrong switches so just hard wired the motor to test - will pick up the correct switches tomorrow.  The valve holder and its motor has suffered some bodging - missing pulley and ?    Right now it is good enough to set the valves on a friend's Cushman.   

   

[s1120]

That brings back memories!!  I used a setup a lot like that back in the early 80's a lot. My stepdad started working on cars in the early 30's, and progressed up to owning his own shop, and junkyard..  All those old school tools where everywhere when I was young. Its all gone now sadly.  Good luck getting it all back together and running. Once its done it will last long past we all roam this earth.

[Chuck in Indiana]

A worthy project, and nice work.. Back in the day, I've machined a *lot* of carbon for EDM electrodes. *Assuming* those brushes are carbon, you can turn new ones on the toy lathe you've restored. 

[larrys]

That's a cool project! I have some old Sioux drill motors and some Mall drill motors. Bad brushes and brush springs are common issues for them old motors. The local True Value hardware store has a good selection of carbon brushes. I have had to shorten brushes and springs to make them fit, that's not a problem. Much harder to make them longer...
Larry

[John A]

http://store.eurtonelectric.com/roundmotorbrusheswithspring.aspx
This is a good place for brushes

[SED]

Thanks for the comments - and John - you found the brushes I need!!! 

Put it to work today setting the valves on a friend's Cushman:

   


Started cleanup of the valve holding turret.

[Chuck in Indiana]

 

[Indian2]

Traded for an old B&D unit that does seats. I'd like to find it a home.

[SED]

Found a list of date codes for GE motors going back to 1923. 
https://www.vintagegolfcartparts.com/media/pdf/general-electric-motor-dating-guide.pdf

This machine is from 1926 when Ford model Ts were being built NEW!

The smaller motor was in rough shape with worn bearings (and shafts) and loaded with crud.  Strangely the stator was seized into the housing - after some failed pulling and pushing I just left it...  Even more strangely some of the armature poles have wood dowels (like from a tree! ) between them!

      


QUESTION: this is a split phase motor - does it matter which terminal the hot and neutral wires go to?  It rotates the same direction regardless. 

Worst was the wiring which had either crumbled or turned to goo depending on the amount of oil.  New rocker switches fit in the old 1926 holes without modification - some things never change!

      


The valve collet drive had been modified to take a V-belt.  Photos of 2 similar machines show a gear drive, while 2 more show different belt drive systems.  The large pulley looks original and is clearly belt drive for a circular (O-ring style) belt drive, but at some point the drive was modified to fit a very stiff v-belt. The motor was raised on spacers and someone had gone to the trouble to braze rings over the outer flanges of the motor pulley!  I cut the brazing off and opened the notch up a little and ordered a belt from McMaster-Carr.  First photo shows a gear-drive machine seen on ebay.

      


The motor's bronze bearings and carbon brushes were replaced, collet head and bearings cleaned up, missing oil cups replaced and final wiring done. (still missing a 5/16 x 32 tpi bearing cap screw for the motor)

Ready to go!  Facing the stone, set-up to check runout (<0.001") and refaced Ariel valve.  (unfortunately I will have to buy new collets to reface GTV valves.

         
 

[Rusty goose]

If anyone is interested, I have a Black and decker valve grinding cent I'd like to sell. It works fine, I have used it many times. I have the seat cutter and many collets for it as well. PM me if you are interested.

It's in Sacramento, CA.

[RinkRat II]

QUESTION: this is a split phase motor - does it matter which terminal the hot and neutral wires go to?  It rotates the same direction regardless.

     It's all dependent on the type of wood being used in the rotor, 
      Great write up, very cool that you brought it back to life. Thanks for sharing

       Paul B

[SED]

     It's all dependent on the type of wood being used in the rotor, 

   Just as I suspected!   bamboo or pine