bevel drive shimming?

[fredvv44]

I'm fitting new gears to the bevel box. When checking the tooth pattern I'm a little confused. Can any of you guys tell me what's going on? From the bright spot at the leading edge of the tooth it looks like I need to move the pinion further toward the axle. The bright line along the root of the tooth is confusing to me too.

[acogoff]

     I would say the marking compound you are using is confusing and is hard to tell. I would go to a nearby GM dealer and order in some #1052351 Gear Marking Compound in a 1 OZ. tube.  Don't put any on the pinion at all, just smear some on the face of the ring gear on three teeth and three teeth on the opposite side of the ring gear.

[guzzisteve]

You can get Prussian blue at the auto parts stores, that's what I use. It's easier to smear and read.

Is that all torqued to spec on cover & pinion bolts w/puller on hub pulling it out on cover?

[pete roper]

Your assumption is correct. The suggestion that there are better mediums for doing this is true but for your job you have enough (edit)colour to know.

As you suggest �Face and flank? Move the crank, ( Pinion.) Toe and Heel? Move the wheel (Crownwheel.)

As Steve says you need to make sure the pinion carrier is securely in the bearing and everything is set up as it would be in service. Pinion carrier pulled down tight in the box, crownwheel as far as it can be out from the RH side of the box.if you�ve ensured those parameters are met I�d suggest moving the pinion in a tad as you suggest.

Pete

[Rick4003]

I would say that your layer of marking compound is much too thick. Only a very fine layer is required as the print will not be correct if the layer is too thick. That might also what gives you the funny reading.

At work we make gearboxes for the cement industry and we just use a small amount of preussian blue on the ring gear and then rotate the gears so the pinion will run through the painted gears on the ring gear. It is important to keep a load on both gears. You turn the pinion while you are pushing against the ring gear to simulate the load. Then on the return rotation you reverse the loads to simulate a coasting situation. We will do the check on four places on the ring gear 90° apart.

I'll try and find a page that show how you have to move the gears to get the right contact pattern.

-Ulrik

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[fredvv44]

thanks guys. I used the paint as I had it on hand. I need to get some of the blue for other uses too.

I did have it tightened up without the pinion o-ring so the carrier was all the way in. I have Gussiology and a G5 shop manual so i have the patterns to look at. I'll do this again with the blue and post the pix after I shim the pinion in a bit more.
Fred

[guzzisteve]

For a good explanation page 91 fig 141 here

http://www.guzzitek.org/gb/ma_us_uk/1100/1100SportCarb_Atelier(I_GB).pdf

[fredvv44]

I picked up some Permatex Prussian Blue and I agree that it is superior to the Acrylic paint i was using.
I did about 6 tries with different pinion shims and seem to have a good pattern on the power side. The coast side doesn't look great. What do you guys think?
I have just a bit of play in the pinion so that looks good.






I might add that this is being used in a JZR replica Morgan 3 wheeler so it weighs about twice what the bike weighs.
www.jzrusa2.blogspo t.com

[guzzisteve]

You get a real good print on the ring gear also, should be dead center both ways. 

[Rick4003]

Great that you got the marking blue, makes things a lot easier. You still have way too much blue on the gears. You should just apply a very thin coat of blue on the ring gear using a paper towel or a bit of cloth to wipe it on with. When you have run it over the pinion it should only leave a faint trace on the pinion. If you have as much blue on as you have now you cannot see the proper contact point. The contact point should show up as a small ellipse shaped imprint on the pinion. The imprint should be exactly in the middle of the tooth on both the power side and the coasting side.

When setting up the gears you start by checking your backlash. First measure backlash and if this is OK, you check the tooth contact pattern.

The print that you have now is likely due to a incorrect backlash of the gears.

I will post some pictures of how the tooth contact pattern should look like and how to move the gears to get it in the correct pattern from where you are now. I'm currently in Pakistan and will travel home tomorrow. Will try and post the pictures and corrections on Saturday.

Sounds cool with the three wheeler. If it is guzzi powered it deserves a build thread in the build section! :)
Also the extra weight of the three wheeler makes it even more important that you get the gears to mesh 100% correctly. If they don't mesh properly they will wear fast.

I have attached a picture of the pinion on the gearbox I have just put into operation, same principle just a wee bit larger at 3750kW :) if you look closely you can see the contact pattern where the dykem red has been worn off the pinion. The red dye is put on the pinion so we are able to get a tooth pattern when under load. The torque in these gears are so high that the pinion twist under load and changes the contact point compared to a no load situation. We adjust the mesh of the gears taking the twist in consideration. Checking the tooth pattern from running under load tells us if we have made the shimming correctly.

-Ulrik

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[fredvv44]

OK, I'm getting a better understanding of the process. I wondered why the whole tooth was colored.

I'll do it again with less ink. All the videos I've watched seem to show a thick layer of color but they are all big cars and trucks.
you guys are really a big help.
Fred
Maybe too little ink but showing much better. I would say the pinion needs to go in a bit deeper. Right?

[fredvv44]

Drive side is moving toward the heel but the coast side still hasn't moved much. I suspect what will happen is I'll get both near the heel and then put a thicker shim on the ring gear carrier to move both patterns toward the toe??!!

[Rick4003]

Now you're beginning to be able to see the proper pattern.
What backlash are you getting? Also do you know what is the backlash you should have? It should be in the workshop manual or so.

The correct backlash is important to being able to get the right adjustment. Get the right backlash first and then try for the tooth pattern.

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[fredvv44]

Thanks Rick. I started realizing that yesterday and will address that today. I think the backlash is too tight. I have a .006" thicker shim to try.
For some reason I'm still not getting the nice oval pattern shown in the books. Maybe backlash adjustment will help that.
Fred V

[guzzisteve]

The pic in the book shows the ring gear and it looks more like a cigar than an oval.  I measure backlash on the pinion spline, one at 9oclock or 3oclock looking at it's nose w/dial indicator.

[fredvv44]

The pic in the book shows the ring gear and it looks more like a cigar than an oval.  I measure backlash on the pinion spline, one at 9oclock or 3oclock looking at it's nose w/dial indicator.

Steve, in the link you sent it said to smear the drive side pinion teeth..... then read the contact zone on the pinion teeth.
In my V1000,G5 book it says to smear the crown teeth and read the contact on the pinion teeth which is how I've been doing it. I would think the results would be the same but since I'm not getting the cigar pattern I'll do it again by smearing the pinion and read the pinion.

I put in a thicker box shim today and am getting what I think I want to see. I did check the backlash with a dial indicator as you suggest and I get a .004" reading; book calls for 4 to 6.
Here is today's marking.



Fred

[guzzisteve]

You got it going on then.

[fredvv44]

Here is the pattern when smearing the pinion teeth and letting it wipe off on the crown gear. pretty much the same pattern but still not getting the cigar shape.
Does this look alright to use?

[n3303j]

Here is the pattern when smearing the pinion teeth and letting it wipe off on the crown gear. pretty much the same pattern but still not getting the cigar shape.
Does this look alright to use?

I keep looking at the width of the land on the top of the pinion tooth. Maybe it's the photo but the aft end of the land on the tooth top looks narrower than I'm used to seeing. How badly is this gear set worn?

[John A]

When you quit for the evening and look at it in the morning itll  become clearer what to do next. your brain will work on it while you sleep. as you get closer it becomes harder to determine what to move.

[DAMMAG]

This is the crown wheel from a gearset I shimmed.

I used artists oil paint to mark the crown wheel which I think worked quite well. I tried engineers blue but found it harder to read.

What are peoples thoughts on the pattern I got?







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[DAMMAG]

This is a relatively new gearset that I had already run for a few thousand KM's.

[Rough Edge racing]

This is a relatively new gearset that I had already run for a few thousand KM's.

 I have done automotive ring and pinon jobs.I never knew mechanics using  Prussian blue, always used a white or red "lead" paint designed for the purpose..But spray paint also can do the job.The patterns don't always look like in the book photos...It can vary depending on the gear cutting equipment and manufacturer...What's shown above in white looks ok especially if the backlash is correct. But I'm not too familiar with ideal Guzzi patterns. And used gears will show a different pattern than new....

[fredvv44]

I keep looking at the width of the land on the top of the pinion tooth. Maybe it's the photo but the aft end of the land on the tooth top looks narrower than I'm used to seeing. How badly is this gear set worn?

Ron, that is exactly what you are seeing. the gears are new, well, they have 100 miles on them, but have no wear. the gear set is made in Germany and is called a Klingeinberg-Palloid grind, whatever that means.

[fredvv44]

This is the crown wheel from a gearset I shimmed.

I used artists oil paint to mark the crown wheel which I think worked quite well. I tried engineers blue but found it harder to read.

What are peoples thoughts on the pattern I got?







how to deactivate account

From all that I've read you want to see what the pinion tooth pattern looks like. Apparently they wipe across the ring gear teeth and will leave a similar pattern even if the pinion is not set right. My book said to use white lead marking paste.
Fred