CARC Bikes Sales Failure. Why?

[bpreynolds]

Inspired by the recent V9 thread.   
I lov�em but why are they still not around?  And I guess I would say it�s not because of a Dcotor Evil master plan at Piaggio or Guzzi to steer the brand in a direction many others (not me) on this board say is boring, lackluster, or unGuzzi like so to speak; rather, it�s way more simple than that I suspect.  They are not around because folks didn�t buy them.  But hey, I�m not above being wrong, clearly, so convince me otherwise.  In the meantime, why didn�t folks buy them? 

[Dave Swanson]

The flat tappet fiasco poisoned the CARC well.   MG obviously didn’t learn their lesson from the Hydro motor  fiasco and chose to do a repeat. 

[PJPR01]

It's a good question....would be nice to know what were the expected sales projections Guzzi had when they first launched, and did the final volumes get close to those initial figures.

Approx 10 years of CARC bikes was a decent run time wise, I wouldn't discount that another variant comes out again.

Maybe not exactly the CARC design, but is there any doubt Guzzis will always be shaft drive but in a different flavor?

Meanwhile...CARC bikes are going for very reasonable prices and they seem to be virtually indestructible...

Are you really thinking about getting a Griso again?   

[bpreynolds]

Are you really thinking about getting a Griso again?   

Check my signature, I already did 

[DanD]

 My dealer's answer to this question was that the CARC bikes did not meet EU4 emissions standards.

10 years is a good run.  Yes,  the early models had issues butt the later models were bullet proof. 

My '16 Stelvio isn't going anywhere without me on it!

The drive train is by far the best all around of many motorcycles ibe owned. 

I'll be grabbing a Griso as soon as funds allow. 

[bad Chad]

The flat tappet fiasco poisoned the CARC well.   MG obviously didn't�t learn their lesson from the Hydro motor  fiasco and chose to do a repeat.

Wrong.  The CARC bikes didn't sell in high numbers prior to the tappet issue.  But by the time the tappet issue really became somewhat well known, the writing was already on the wall.  They had a run fo over a decade, that's not bad.  They couldn't meet EU4 emissions,  Piaggio figured the cost of doing so didn't make sense.

[Spokane2303]

Didn’t they sell the CARC patent to BMW?

[LBC Tenni]

EU requiring ABS was one more strike against Griso. While other CARC models got ABS, it seems they were unable to find a spot to hide the hardware on Griso.

[Wayne Orwig]

The flat tappet fiasco poisoned the CARC well.   MG obviously didn�t learn their lesson from the Hydro motor  fiasco and chose to do a repeat.

Don't think so. There are a LOT of two valve CARC bikes out there.
And the four valve lives on in the 1400 Cali.

[Tusayan]

The original Breva 1100 was a relatively uninspired Piaggio copy of the R1150R BMW and shortly after introduction BMW introduced the R1200R that outclassed it.  The big Breva and all its direct descendants became a bit player in the market from that point on.

The Griso was an Aprillia re-pop of the Guzzi-developed Centauro concept, I think a better idea to promote Moto Guzzi as a brand than the Breva etc, but as others have mentioned the legal constraints killed it.  I suspect that Piaggio may attempt a third version of the same concept as despite BMW returning the favor and copying the Griso, Guzzi was the original and that serves the brand.

[PJPR01]

Check my signature, I already did 

Most excellent!  Welcome back to Griso land!!  :)

[Darren Williams]

1. Unknown brand to outsiders. Those that knew Guzzi bought them, although appears in small numbers, that isn't a large demographic.
2. Small dealer network and not really advertised (see #1).
3. Reputation for needing "sorted" before being reliable, with a couple now well known "catastrophic" issues that got expensive to overcome.
4. During the main time frame the full line was offered, 2009 to 2016, the customer cruiser phase was in full swing, ST bikes (Norge)small fading niche, naked sports (Breva and Griso) not taken off yet, and only ADV bikes (Stelvio) were in phase with the market swings.

Those that rode them for more than a short test ride usually connected to the bikes and bonded well. I bought two and really liked them both. Small issues were an annoyance, but major ones killed the deal (Dash failures). Absolutely no regrets riding CARC bikes for the few years I had them. In the end, I didn't want the sorting exercise of getting a new bike reliable and went another direction.

[rdbandkab]

Here's a question for ye...    I've noticed that emissions have been mentioned as a reason CARC bikes didn't/won't/can't sell. 
I'm not sure I understand if that means that you cannot use the CARC design on newer 8v versions of the Guzzi engine,  or was if it was coincidental timing for emissions standards and also the time was up for the CARC rear drive design?

[jlburgess]

I think they were required to met Euro 4 standards at least for bikes sold there.  That meant abs and noise/emissions upgrades.  I suspect that's why 2017 Griso's magically showed up in the US but not in Europe.

[Litre1000]

I just got home from the local Moto Guzzi dealer. I was looking at their last Griso and I put an eyeball on the V7 & V9 bikes. The Griso is a whole lot sexier than the V7 & V9 bikes. But they did have last year‘s V9 in black with the yellow graphics, I guess it’s a bobber, and that did look pretty darn good in person. But the lack of power regarding the V7 & V9 bikes is definitely a deal killer for me. The Griso is just so sexy looking. Even in silver! If they built a modern-day MGS-01 with Griso-like ergonomics.....id be all over it!!!!


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[bpreynolds]

So without producting a treatise here, what does one mean when they say “couldn’t meet emisions standards”?  I have always just wrongly (I guess) assumed this had to do specifically with efficiency in some way.  And also, it seems like other manufacturers have developed their big blocks into Euro compliant.  Why not Guzzi?  From what I’m reading here in responses maybe the bikes weren’t selling enough for Guzzi to invest to do this?

[twowings]

Air-cooled engines = big investment in R&D for emissions-compliance...that's what killed the VW Beetle...better to start with clean slate than modify existing designs...


More info here:

http://www.therideadvice.com/why-the-future-of-air-cooled-engines-isnt-too-hot/

[Idontwantapickle]

I just got home from the local Moto Guzzi dealer.

What is this “dealer” of which you speak? Did you ride there on a unicorn?
No dealers=no sales. Piaggio has been notoriously difficult for dealers compared to other brands. Not specific to CARCs, but Guzzi has next to no footprint.
The CARCs are great bikes IMO, I love mine. As mentioned before they had a good run. As soon as my wife’s not looking  I’ll be looking for another one while they are available in good nick.
You either will go out of your way for a Guzzi or you won’t, Piaggio careth not.
Hunter

[Litre1000]

What is this “dealer” of which you speak? Did you ride there on a unicorn?
No dealers=no sales. Piaggio has been notoriously difficult for dealers compared to other brands. Not specific to CARCs, but Guzzi has next to no footprint.
The CARCs are great bikes IMO, I love mine. As mentioned before they had a good run. As soon as my wife’s not looking  I’ll be looking for another one while they are available in good nick.
You either will go out of your way for a Guzzi or you won’t, Piaggio careth not.
Hunter

They are not a ”REAL” Moto Guzzi dealer. They are a European multi line dealer located in northern Illinois. No unicorn ridden...just my work truck. The “other” Guzzi dealer in my area just gave-up ticket. Not much dealer support here in Illinois !


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[pete roper]

One of the biggest problems faced by the CARC bikes was the fact they offered truly modern rear, and in some cases front, suspension and didn�t look like a motorbike from the middle of the 20th century. The advent of the 8V donk compounded the issue because all the beetle-browed traditionalists lost their minds because the cams were in the heads and it had more than two valves per cylinder! The myth was created that the new motor was �Complicated� so traditional Guzzi owners didn�t buy them and the vast majority of the motorcycling population hardly know what a Guzzi is and wouldn�t buy one anyway!

The end result has been a pusillanimous retreat into designs of great mediocrity. Oddly enough they aren�t selling either.

Oh well, it was wonderful while it lasted for those of us who aren�t wedded to the past.

Pete

[Kiwi Dave]

It seems to me that the models that were killed off are those with the 5AM ECU.  Perhaps this was incapable of ABS (but the Norge has ABS) and/or traction control.  Why didn't they just update their ECU/Dashboard like they did with the V7-III and the 1400 series?  Seems to me they left a helluva gap in their range.

[pete roper]

Stelvio has both ABS and TC, albeit primitive.

[Litre1000]

I’ll admit that I am really, really late to the whole Moto Guzzi thing. Spring of 2017 I went to the dealer to look at adventure bikes and saw the Stelvio. I had an Arlen Ness Victory Vision in mind, because I’ve always enjoyed the 2009, 2010 models. So I had to decide between the Stelvio and the Vision. The Stelvio was new to me and the Vision was a bike I had been desiring for a very long time. So I chose the Vision. Since then, I’ve been reading everything I could get my hands on about Moto Guzzi. I really like the Stelvio, but the Griso is so darn sexy. I was waiting for my raise at work before I went shopping. The Rossi Red Griso is gone. And all they have left is the silver Griso. I’m not a big fan of silver. Too bad they’re gone.

[PJPR01]

One of the biggest problems faced by the CARC bikes was the fact they offered truly modern rear, and in some cases front, suspension and didn�t look like a motorbike from the middle of the 20th century. 

So Guzzi was too forward thinking on their designs on the CARC bikes and too backwards thinking on their current line up?  Somewhere in the middle of the road design needed then?  Wouldn�t that suggest that bringing back the CARC styles bikes would sell well now then?

That�s a puzzle ...

[JohninVT]

Were they a failure?  They were phased out due to Euro emissions requirements.  I see a lot of secondhand Breva's and Norge's both on Craigslist and trade-ins at dealers.  The model run lasted ten years.  I just did a quick search on Craigslist in the Northeast area and there are four V7's but there are eight CARC bikes so SOMEONE bought them.  Most have a decent number of miles so the owners liked them enough to ride for a while.

I dunno, I happened to love the 1200 2 valve.  I liked it better than the 8 valve.  I also liked the CARC drive system but it had to be expensive to produce compared to the V7.  I thought the suspension on the Sport was pretty good.  I thought the suspension on the Griso was great.  Both suspensions were a helluva lot better than the V7's or the new California. 

The CARC bikes sold in enough numbers to see them riding around.  They had decent suspensions, good engines(besides the 8 valve fiasco), good brakes and were produced for over ten years.  They were phased out after ten years.  I can't see how they were a failure.               

       

[ohiorider]

I believe Guzzi. with the CARC bikes, built a family of motorcycles designed to directly compete with contemporary BMW models.  I don't think they missed the mark by much.  But from a marketing, support, and promotional  standpoint, I believe they missed it by a mile.  IF their dealer network had been in place, Guzzi could have marketed their bikes really hard against the comparable BMW models.  But it wasn't, and that was probably apparent to Beemer riders who considered either switching to Guzzi, or at least adding one to the stable, and said 'thanks, but no thanks.'

OK, so as a motorcycle manufacturer, Guzzi could offer Italian bikes that competed favorably with those from BMW.  Perhaps they were a bit heavier, and lacked the level of dealer support offered by BMW.  But the basic bikes hit the mark.  And were generally less expensive.

The Norge is/was a lovely competitor against the RT in its several iterations ...... at least during the 1100, 1150 era.  The Stelvio likewise ..... I've talked to a couple of my BMW GS riding buddies who took the Stelvio out for a demo ride and were totally impressed.  But they wouldn't purchase the Guzzi.  These guys had grown to trust BMW, but were unsure of what level of support they'd get from Guzzi.  And when one looks at the amount of effort BMWMOA and BMWRA put into promoting the brand and lifestyle (damn, I hate that word!,) compared to the efforts of any of the Guzzi clubs, there is no comparison.

I just received a letter from MOA, promoting a raffle of 25 current BMW bikes.  A $100.00 ticket gives you one chance at each of these bikes.  The income from this raffle goes to one of MOA's causes, which is often directed at making riding safer.  Of course I'll buy one ticket.

There IS considerable activity to keep the BMW brand alive, and keep new riders joining the ranks, on the part of the clubs and by BMW.

It is that level of promotion and support that, in my mind, explains why BMW won, and Guzzi lost, the battle of comparable bikes.

So, was CARC a failure?  To my way of thinking, not from a pure design standpoint.  But there were (and still are) so many things working against Moto Guzzi.  I don't think bike design during the CARC era was one of them.

Bob

[Huzo]

The end result has been a pusillanimous retreat into designs of great mediocrity. Oddly enough they aren�t selling either.



Pete

Just in case..!


I didn't know myself..

[molly]

In a way they were a failure because Guzzi did not take the concept forward into a new model range. When I look at the present line up there is a gaping hole where a updated 1200cc CARC bike should be.

[rdbandkab]

In a way they were a failure because Guzzi did not take the concept forward into a new model range. When I look at the present line up there is a gaping hole where a updated 1200cc CARC bike should be.

Hear, hear!!!          ....here's to hoping for a naked standard to come out by the time I'm ready for a new scoot.  If not,  I just don't see the purchase of a "new" Guzzi.  Breva 1100 #3?


Is the alternative to the CARC, a shaftie with a double sided swingarm then? 

[Scott of the Sahara]

I do not believe my CARC Norge 2v a failure at all. I am keeping it.
Sometimes people hang on to what they like without upgrading every couple of years.
I bought my '08 new in 2010 and have a little over 33,000 miles. It is barely broken in.