1200 Sport Fork Upgrade Advice

[Larry]

2013 1200 Sport 8V SE ABS - the pretty red and white one. 24,000klms
If one of my fork seals wasn't leaking i probably wouldn't be going here - not just yet anyway.
But seeing as I'm going to have to replace the right hand seal, i may as well replace them both. Which means stripping the whole front end.
So, if I'm going to go to all that trouble, do i also upgrade the suspension?
I think I do.And check the steering bearings of course.
The issue is that I'm a pretty big unit - 120kgs in my skin,  265lbs to you imperialists - and I'm now using 112mm of the available 120mm unpreloadable (what gives with that on these bikes anyway) fork travel using the zip tie measuring method. Add my wife's 70kgs plus full touring luggage and things are pretty harsh up front. This needs to be rectified before we do 3 months and 11,000klms around Europe next year.
So it's not IF I do something, it's WHAT I do.
The easier, cheapest way to go is just a spring upgrade - progressive or not?  Oil weights etc. BUT I still have no preload - what gives with that on these bikes anyway.
Or, do I go for the full  Matris cartridge swap out. http://www.carpimoto.it/en-AU/Suspension/Fork-Kits/Page_1/45193_F20M110K-Matris-Fork-Cartridge-F20-Kit-for-Moto-Guzzi-Sport-1200.htm
So what is the collective opinion on this? New springs will be A$220. The Matris cartridge swap out will be A$1050. IS IT WORTH IT? I'm not a wealthy man. A$800 buys me some good luggage. But if it's worth it, it's worth it!
I'd be interested to hear from those of you who have done either, or both, on the 1200 Sport.

Thanks

Larry

[fotoguzzi]

Um, have you tried the piece of 35mm film trick to clean off the seals insitu? or get that little gizmo that slips into the seal and swipes it clean..

[Larry]

I knew that would happen :)
Yeah, done that. I have a fancy Castrol one. Makes no difference.
Thanks anyway.

Larry

[molly]

I changed the springs on my Breva 1200 (Norge without fairing) for the correct rated non progressive spring for my weight and it certainly made a difference


http://sonicsprings.com/catalog/calculate_spring_rate.php

[Larry]

I changed the springs on my Breva 1200 (Norge without fairing) for the correct rated non progressive spring for my weight and it certainly made a difference
http://sonicsprings.com/catalog/calculate_spring_rate.php

I think the Breva 1200 has damper based suspension  and the Sport 1200s have cartridge suspension, or am I wrong.

[molly]

I think the Breva 1200 has damper based suspension  and the Sport 1200s have cartridge suspension, or am I wrong.

Yeah you are right. Can you not change the spring on a cartridge system?

[pete roper]

Yes you can.

Larry, go and see Izzy at Suspensions r Us in Seaford. He’s the Matris importer and certainly knows his stuff. I have my own ‘Go To’ suspension bloke up here but buy a fair bit of gear off Izzy. Good bloke. Does excellent work.

Pete

[Larry]

Yeah you are right. Can you not change the spring on a cartridge system?

Yes you can Molly, and thanks for your input.
I was hoping someone with a 1200 Sport and have either done the spring or cartridge swap would chime in. Looking for their experience of it.
I had a Breva 1100 and did a spring change on that.

[Larry]

Larry, go and see Izzy at Suspensions r Us in Seaford. He�s the Matris importer and certainly knows his stuff. I have my own �Go To� suspension bloke up here but buy a fair bit of gear off Izzy. Good bloke. Does excellent work. :thumb

Thanks Pete. Hope you're well.
Yes,  I know Izzy pretty well, he's managed to pry quite a few dollars out of me over my Guzzi years. I've actually sent him an email and waiting for a reply.
As I said above I'm trying to find out other Sport owners experience with either or both upgrades.

BTW I'm hoping to be up your way in a couple of weeks so maybe I can shout you that beer. It'll depend on the weather as I'm using an unnecessary meeting in Canberra as excuse for a road trip on the new bike. It'll need to be fairly dry tho as I don't fancy 0c and wet.
Take care.

Larry

[JohninVT]

Have you tried adjusting the air gap or heavier fork oil?  For thirty cents you can put two pvc spacers at the top of your springs to increase the preload.  A set of custom springs from Racetech is only $130.  You can spec your riding style, weight, etc and they'll provide a spring rate that meets your needs.  They don't specifically list the 1200 Sport on their website but I know when I talked to them nearly ten years ago about mine they cross referenced the forks and could build a set of springs.   

[Larry]

Have you tried adjusting the air gap or heavier fork oil?  For thirty cents you can put two pvc spacers at the top of your springs to increase the preload.  A set of custom springs from Racetech is only $130.  You can spec your riding style, weight, etc and they'll provide a spring rate that meets your needs.  They don't specifically list the 1200 Sport on their website but I know when I talked to them nearly ten years ago about mine they cross referenced the forks and could build a set of springs.

Well I haven't tried anything yet but I do know what can be done.
I'd like to hear from 1200 Sport owners who have done upgrades/modifications and what exactly those upgrades entailed and what the outcomes were,  and particularly if the Matris or similar cartridge swap is as effective as it should be for the price.
JohninVT, your solution is the cheapest and I've done it before on other bikes, but how long a spacer, how much oil/air space,  and what weight oil?
So as much as suggestions of what can be done are sincerely appreciated they don't help me much without the info on what exactly was done and did it accomplish the desired result for the money.
At the end of the day whatever I do will require exactly the same amount of effort.

Keep 'em conning.

Larry

[ohiorider]

I wish I could offer advice.  I've had bikes that have suspension that just doesn't work for me.  Surprisingly, my 2008 1200 Sport's does!  However, going back to your initial note, I see where I'm a lightweight by comparison at 160 pounds, which might explain why mine works for me.

Good luck, hoping you find the right suspension combination.  My 2v Sport has been a wonderful bike over the past 8 years, though at my age, the weight of the bike is getting to be a bit much. I think if you're able to get it where you want it, it'll be an enjoyable ride.

Regards,

Bob

[JohninVT]

Well I haven't tried anything yet but I do know what can be done.
I'd like to hear from 1200 Sport owners who have done upgrades/modifications and what exactly those upgrades entailed and what the outcomes were,  and particularly if the Matris or similar cartridge swap is as effective as it should be for the price.
JohninVT, your solution is the cheapest and I've done it before on other bikes, but how long a spacer, how much oil/air space,  and what weight oil?
So as much as suggestions of what can be done are sincerely appreciated they don't help me much without the info on what exactly was done and did it accomplish the desired result for the money.
At the end of the day whatever I do will require exactly the same amount of effort.

Keep 'em conning.

Larry

When I swapped to EBC HH brake pads the initial bite was a lot better and it made the forks dive even worse.  I went up one weight from stock on the fork oil and added spacers to preload the springs.  I don't remember the exact length I cut the spacers.  It cost about ten bucks and an afternoon in the garage.  The first set of spacers were too long and I cut a new set that were 20mm shorter after riding it a week.  Again, I don't remember the exact length, only that the second set were shorter.   

The 1200 Sport is more broadsword than scalpel so I didn't expect to magically transform the handling.  I was only looking for balanced performance so a set of Ohlins or Matris that outperformed the rest of the chassis didn't interest me.  My riding is typically over fairly rough surfaces; cracked pavement, frost heaves, etc and I weigh about 180lbs with my gear.  The results were a more controlled rebound and slightly stiffer damping while still having good compliance.  For $8 I achieved a decent outcome. 

I've used both Sonic and Racetech springs on bikes.  For 100-130 bucks they're a great value and make a huge difference.  Having them customized to your weight and riding style makes all the difference.  If you're going to pay someone to change the fork oil, rather than adding spacers I'd suggest you swap the springs.  You're going to be into a shop bill for over a hundred bucks anyway so you might as well have them drop springs in while they've got them off the bike.  If you're doing the work yourself I'd suggest spacers.  You can tinker with them over the course of a couple weeks and get the preload exactly where you want it by adjusting the spacer length.  If you go that route make sure you get every bit of PVC shavings off the spacers by sanding the cuts smooth and wiping with alcohol.  40mm would be a good place to start and adjust from there.                     

[Larry]

 thanks John and Bob. I'll take that onboard.
It is a drag being so big, nothing is made to fit off the shelf.

[rdbandkab]

This is of interest to me also.  We have the 06 Breva 1100 and ride 2up 99% of the time.   So we're talking about 300 lbs of personnel on the bike w/luggage.

[jacksonracingcomau]

Not 1200 sport but
I got a pair of preload adj caps from Izzy (he has boxes of em)
Fitted them inside my  zocchi fork caps by boring them out and turning new down. They fit from under so are held together by compression (and loctite so they don not leak)
If you cannot buy preload adj caps that fit this is relatively easy as long as you know someone with lathe.
I’d still fit correct springs for weight but makes set up much quicker.

[LowRyter]

You might contact

http://www.racetech.com

[Larry]

An update on this.
I've really labored over this. Especially trying to get value for money.
I could go minimum - new springs front and back, but that would be false economy and of limited effect.
I could buy all the bits and save myself around $800 on the quote I got from Izzy, the bloke Pete Roper mentioned.
The clincher is that I'm 3 days into a 4 day road trip through our alpine region, yeah it's cold - minus 6c today with fog which instantly formed into ice on my visor.
Anyway, with 140kgs, me plus luggage, or 310lbs I've come to conclusion that the current suspension is totally rubbish for a bloke my size and that's after constant adjustments. It borders on unsafe at speed on our rubbish roads.
So I'm biting the bullet and getting Izzy to do the total package. Very expensive, but past experience  has been worth it.
That and I can get him to specifically tune it for our Europe trip next year. Around 240kgs.

So there you go. Thanks for all of your input and patience.
I'll report back in a couple of months once it's all fitted and tuned.

Larry

[stinga]

Hey Larry

Just wondering how the upgrade went and did you do it yourself. I brought the Matris cartridge kit for the front and a Wilbers for the rear, all built for my weight and 2 up touring, off Izzy.
Had this kit for over a year now and only look like installing soon due to house and job move.
Let me know how its going and if you installed it is there any tips, Matris instructions and bit cloudy.

[Larry]

Hi Stinga
Yeah, I went the whole hog, it wasn't cheap but I'm glad I did. I got Izzy to fit the front and I did the rear shock.
We're halfway through our 15 week southern European journey and with the bike FULLY loaded the suspension is working really well on these mostly rubbish/really bad roads. I guess my wife is the test of that as she's on the back.
We're in a place called Turda and I've just been out for a bit of a blast by myself and no luggage and with no readjustment of the suspension, wow what a difference. With us fully loaded it's pretty smooth so I guess I can say it was worth it.
Tomorrow we're heading for Sebes which is at the you of the Transalpina Highway which I hope is open.
Take care
Larry Blackmore

[stinga]

G'day Larry n All,

Well I finally got around to installing the suspension kit that I purchased off Izzy, at Suspensions R Us in Seaford Victoria Australia, about 2 1/2 years ago, also the K & L Lift previously best thing motorbike money can be spent on. The kit comprises of Matris Fork Cartridge Kit F20K up front and in the rear a Wilbers Racing shock with hydraulic pre load, slow and high speed compression and rebound adjustments and all set up for my weight and riding needs.
Some might think this is a bit of over kill, shit its only a Guzzi more of a Broadsword than a Scalpel, but after a couple of trips away fully loaded up for camping and with the wife on board this thing was dangerous. Also after dismantling the OME front fork cartridges and seeing how cheaply and flimsy they are made, all the reason to replace them so now its more of an Hunting knife or better.
The reason it's taken so long to fit this great kit is that during that time I've had a job switch and moved home plus the new home never had a shed.
Well we have finally got the shed up and running and I've finally caught up with all the new move jobs around the house so now is the time for the Guzzi to get some much needed surgery.

My Italian Mistress with her legs up in the air



 The first problem encountered, it's a bit hard to see in this and the following foto but once the cartridge bolt is tightened up I could move the cartridge back and forth about 5 mm

 These 2 following shots show the home made spring compressor made up with a road sign connecting bracket, now don't  forget a bit of string threaded up through the spacer to pull up the dampening rod, don't know why the fotos are rotated they are not like that on my computer



The operating table, Nurse more suction and wipe my brow please

Right side showing hydraulic preload

Left side showing remote canister and both high and low compression adjustments screws

 Cartridge bolt that had to be shortened

Guzzi POS on the left and Matris on the right

I think this is pretty obvious which is which



After the first ride on a known piece of road down my way called the Warner Glen Rd, now this road is a real back country tar cow road with heaps of sharp rises like tree roots under the tar, bridge joints, whoopdy do's simular to motocross ones but not as exaggerated and off camber bumpy corners, you could feel the chassis taking all the suspension jarring simular to having your tyres set at 100psi plus its very uncomfortable. Now you can still do 100 to 120 ks on this 20k stretch off road but it's like riding a bronco bull so to counter this I have backed off the high speed compression from 14 clicks to 17 clicks on the Wilbers and also backed off the compression on the forks from 20 clicks to 22 clicks.

To say that this suspension set up works is an understatement, I can now do easily and comfortably in excess of 120ks and corner speed has jumped up 30 to 40 ks higher than previously, cant wait to see how it goes once loaded up for the next camping trip so like Larry said "It's money well sent".

[Larry]

Great to hear.

Larry

[pete roper]

Have you rollerised that beast yet?

[Larry]

Have you rollerised that beast yet?

If you're asking me Pete, the answer is obviously yes because you did it for Townsville Pete.
Can't answer for Stinga though.

Larry

[stinga]

Have you rollerised that beast yet?

Nah Pete not yet, it’s a 2010 model and I’ve done 28500 ks  since new. When I get it in for its next service I will push the point with Mario, he’s pushing the Guzzi barrow and a bit reluctant saying some bikes are well into 100k. At the moment it’s a bit noisy at start up till the oil warms up, typically Guzzi no different from new, and have noticed a wee bit of pinging at gentle roll on at 4000 rpm not sure if it’s valve related. Have excepted recent fuel trimmings on PCV and it seems to have settled, but may be I’m flooring it more now the suspension seems sorted.
Haven’t done any of the servicing myself, trying to maintain paper trail, so not sure of used oil quality or removed the valve covers. But curiosity will get me soon and I’ll pull something apart to have a gander at.
Cheers and thanks for asking
Steve

[pete roper]

They'll be failing. They all do. No exceptions.

[stinga]

They'll be failing. They all do. No exceptions.

Yep understand Pete, don’t mind sitting on a time bomb so long as you know the time. Will be pushing real hard and if Mario is going to loose to much will get kit and self install. Any specific tools required.

[pete roper]

Taking the left hand cambod off takes 15 minutes. As soon as you pull the cam out the damage will be obvious. The problem now seems to be that the current importer is telling people that the damage “Isn’t bad enough” to warrant replacement. This is BS because I never had a claim knocked back by the factory, I think the importer just can’t be arsed submitting the claims. That and whoever deals with warranty is an utter ignoramus when it comes to DLC failure.