New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete

[JohninVT]

With an overnight setup job, I'll smoke you on your goose with any '90's Sportster 883 anywhere you'd like to ride.

I'll be your huckleberry. 

[redrider90]

With an overnight setup job, I'll smoke you on your goose with any '90's Sportster 883 anywhere you'd like to ride.

There is a local guy here who could smoke most anybody on his 90's model HD dresser because he was good not because he had a good bike.

[twowheeladdict]

It is interesting reading this subject on various forums and seeing the different reactions. 

There appears to be a common theme.

Those that love motorcycling are looking forward to seeing if Harley hits the mark and sells these new creations.

Those that have motorcycle prejudices and want to hate on anything that isn't what they know.

Those that complained that Harley killed off the Vrod because of the great engine, but now that Harley is putting the engine in bikes that will also handle they aren't happy either.

[nighthawk]

The biggest concern for HD should be dealer apathy, Buell would most likely still be around if they weren't sold only in HD shops.

[oldbike54]

With an overnight setup job, I'll smoke you on your goose with any '90's Sportster 883 anywhere you'd like to ride.

 Uh , OK Valentino 

 Dusty

[Kev m]

The biggest concern for HD should be dealer apathy, Buell would most likely still be around if they weren't sold only in HD shops.

That was a different time when the arrogant HD sales staff had waiting lists or at least recent memories of them.

Think of the apathy the could strike the heart of a sales staff when literally every bike you can get is presold for a decade or more!

I still blame them, it's foolish to succumb to such sloth, but still it's human.

So today I think there's a lot more motivation to adapt and survive. Or they won't.

[oldbike54]

I'll be your huckleberry.

 Yeah , me too .

 Dusty

[Ncdan]

Next we are going to be hearing " yea but my Daddy can whip your Daddy " LMBO,
We are stooping down to  Facebook level here😂

[roadscum]

The Adv bike looks like it came straight out of a Chinese design studio.   I'll very surprised if the production version still has that block front end.

I suspect sales in China will likely exceed sales in the US. H-D have have been declining in the US but continue to be on the rise in other parts of the world, most notable is in Asia. So if these don't look like bike that you feel would  appeal to American not to worry, that's not the primary target consumer.   

Paul

[mjptexas]

Ya.....the top two are butt ugly but I'm kinda likin' the bottom one.

Agree on the bottom one. However...

major competitor will be the Ducati Monster.  Can H-D build a 150 hp, sub 500 lb bike that handles?

[pressureangle]

I'll be your huckleberry.

You gonna actually make me do it?

[Tom H]

I had commented on how bike #3 looked like a bug.... Well...

After my post I started looking at the types of bike rolling along on my commute. There was quite a few of the bug bikes, a good amount of you sport bikes, and a good amount of ADV bikes. I left the Harley variants out, just because you would expect them.

So...I guess I could see a Harley bug bike. I could see it as being cool at the local drive in bike night. Everyone else has the foreign bike and YOU have the HARLEY!

Now for an odd note. Guzzi is rarely sighted. There are 2 new style V7 series bikes that I see on almost a daily basis on my commute. One is black engine with flat green tank and the other has a red frame and maybe a silver tank. The world is changing

Tom

[Kev m]

Agree on the bottom one. However...

major competitor will be the Ducati Monster.  Can H-D build a 150 hp, sub 500 lb bike that handles?

Does it have to?!?

I mean, to be competitive in the market place is different from being the top dog.

[nick949]

Hmmm. I wonder what the inspiration for the third one might have been............ Interesting to see an American company copying the Japanese. Something the Japanese companies have been accused of (quite rightly) for a while now.

[Kev m]

Hmmm. I wonder what the inspiration for the third one might have been............ Interesting to see an American company copying the Japanese. Something the Japanese companies have been accused of (quite rightly) for a while now.

Not just accused of, actively attempted for the same reason Harley is arguably doing the same in reverse now. In both cases we're talking about companies fighting for the same customers. Hopefully both companies, despite similar aesthetics, do things their own way with regards to other unique qualities (powertrain, etc.).

[JohninVT]

Agree on the bottom one. However...

major competitor will be the Ducati Monster.  Can H-D build a 150 hp, sub 500 lb bike that handles?

A Monster 1100 has about 95hp.  On the other hand, a KTM 1290 has 177hp.  There�s a big window to shoot through.  IMHO, if the Streetfighter has Buell XB power figures(100hp & 80ft/lbs) but it�s from a modern engine, in a traditional chassis...it�ll be in the ballpark. 

There aren�t many 150hp, sub 500lb bikes.

[JohninVT]

You gonna actually make me do it?

Yes

[Nic in Western NYS]

I've got about 200,000 miles on BMW twins myself, on two continents and have never been left stranded by mine... the newest of which was a '93.  Actually, I've never been stranded by any motorcycle since 1974 but that aside I have been with quite a few other riders on 21st century  BMWs that have left their owners in the lurch.  One notable instance was a ride on which one late model GS got water in the TPS and was trucked home and another ate its valve gear.  Both on the same ride to Corsica from Munich.  Another friend had a K1600 engine self immolation, bike totaled and parted out at 60,000 miles and so on.  This stuff is not exactly rare. 

I don't think I have to lay out KTMs issues, there's a lot of info out there.  I have 6 of them in addition to my current BMW, but Ducati and Guzzi don't have a sterling reputation for reliability either... 

HD does have a good reliability reputation in the here and now.  That reputation is matched only by the Japanese and possibly by Triumph, I think that leaving an opportunity for HD and their well developed dealer network.

I wonder how much of our impressions of which make is reliable or not have to do with our own experiences.  There's this cognitive psychological area of study called 'heuristics.'  Kahnemann and Tversky about 30 years ago pioneered it.  Relevance here is, our brains are not mechanistic, they evolved to remember certain things differently.  For example, we will remember things that happen recently of course.  But we also remember the first event in a series more correctly than we remember middle events in a series.  We also remember VIVID events more clearly.  Primacy, recency, and vividness are characteristics of events that we remember and shape our actions.
Finally my small point - I got stranded on a BMW oilhead in front of a storm coming home to Massachusetts from Chicago, somewhere between Erie and Buffalo before I knew that part of the world - it seemed like I was stranded somewhere VERY remote.  The engine had a major top end failure at only 25k miles with good maintenance from new.  N of 1, almost no relation to how another oilhead would perform, nothing scientific about it - NO WAY I'd buy another oilhead.  Looked at their parallel (Rotax I think) twins, but never an oilhead.  That's not really rational.  It's not based on evidence of how likely another oilhead is to fail.  I had a Ducati clutch blow up on me and I'll never forget riding home being unable to use the clutch without stalling and being stranded - that was sort of fun as a one-off experience.
Never stranded on a Guzzi other than for a tire mishap, so my own perception of MG reliability is probably better than it should be.  Or not. I don't KNOW anything about this without a LOT of systematic data and analysis...how I feel about things is a complicated matter having to do with my particular brain, its experiences and the experiences of the early humans on the savanna.  CHEERS!

[HDGoose]

The biggest concern for HD should be dealer apathy, Buell would most likely still be around if they weren't sold only in HD shops.

Many dealers refused to carry Buells. Many said it was because the didn't have any mechanics trained on the Buells. And many dealerships refused to pay to send someone to get trained because of the cost and anticipated lack of return on that investment.

[Tusayan]

I wonder how much of our impressions of which make is reliable or not have to do with our own experiences.  There's this cognitive psychological area of study called 'heuristics.'  Kahnemann and Tversky about 30 years ago pioneered it.  Relevance here is, our brains are not mechanistic, they evolved to remember certain things differently.  For example, we will remember things that happen recently of course.  But we also remember the first event in a series more correctly than we remember middle events in a series.  We also remember VIVID events more clearly.  Primacy, recency, and vividness are characteristics of events that we remember and shape our actions.

I've been riding and hanging out with BMW people for about 30 years, weekly, taking annual or semi-annual rides in Europe with groups of them since the late '90s, and have a good friend who owns and manages a large BMW dealer.  I don't have any emotional reaction to BMW reliability and serviceability, or any particular events. I've just watched the bikes slowly, gradually become complex, bug ridden, dealer dependent and irrelevant to my interests.  The situation and bikes are wearing and decadent to me, not exciting or vivid in either a negative or positive sense.   Meanwhile, HD's reputation for reliability has equally slowly been gaining ground and is now widely understood.  I think it'll be a marketable asset in selling bikes other than HD's current cruisers...   Its one area where the non-Japanese competition is not that strong.

On a more exciting subject, the mention of Buells in this thread reminded me that I'd really like to have a Ulysses with HB bags before you can no longer find a nice used one.  The later ones (about 2008 and newer) seem to be relatively bug free, and if I could be sure the individual bike was dialed in it'd be a good choice to buy, store and ride in Europe, replacing my existing bike there: no valve adjustments, no throttle body synch, 'lifetime' belt drive with no rear drive oil to change and good handling on the passes - better than most other comparable bikes. Buells sold pretty well in Europe and you can find them easily, although prices are about 50% higher than in the US.

https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/search.html?damageUnrepaired=NO_DAMAGE_UNREPAIRED&isSearchRequest=true&makeModelVariant1.m akeId=4200&makeModelVariant1.m odelDescription=ulysses&maxPowerAsArray=PS&minPowerAsArray=PS&scopeId=MB

[ScepticalScotty]

Good on them for having a go. And for paying homage to the GS , when many manufacturers pay homage to Harley with their cruisers.

[Perazzimx14]

Amazing how some are so sure of things that haven't been released yet.

The Street Rod is none of those things, NONE.

Also amazing is how sure YOU are of things that haven't been released yet.

The Street Rods is also none of the 3 concepts.




 

[Kev m]

Also amazing is how sure YOU are of things that haven't been released yet.

The Street Rods is also none of the 3 concepts.

I didn't say I was sure. I was making some,  perhaps optimistic, predictions but at least I was BASING them on the closest current product to what they are showing - THE STREET ROD... 

[mjptexas]

Does it have to?!?

I mean, to be competitive in the market place is different from being the top dog.

Just sayin...

I got a dollar that says the magazine writers will make the Ducati comparison.  Harley will have to offer something that ticks many of the boxes to pique interest in the buying community.  IMHO if H-D fields a bike weighing less than 500 pounds, and that handles reasonably well they may have a fighting chance, as long as it's cheaper than a Ducati Monster.

[Tusayan]

Just sayin...

I got a dollar that says the magazine writers will make the Ducati comparison.  Harley will have to offer something that ticks many of the boxes to pique interest in the buying community.  IMHO if H-D fields a bike weighing less than 500 pounds, and that handles reasonably well they may have a fighting chance, as long as it's cheaper than a Ducati Monster.

I generally agree with that but my view is that price, within reason, is not the issue...  the issues for many buyers are competitive performance and reliability (yes, in comparison with Ducati etc), good styling and brand status.  New high end buyers want an easy life, good performance and widely admired brand status.

[Darren Williams]

Just sayin...

I got a dollar that says the magazine writers will make the Ducati comparison.  Harley will have to offer something that ticks many of the boxes to pique interest in the buying community.  IMHO if H-D fields a bike weighing less than 500 pounds, and that handles reasonably well they may have a fighting chance, as long as it's cheaper than a Ducati Monster.

HD could make a case for the market if their Streetfighter is just fun to ride (combination of handling, braking & power/speed)and has the same reliability and low maintenance costs like their current line up. That can be a big selling point and I would take a lower performing bike in that trade off.

[pressureangle]

Yes

Hm. You got Loudon, I have Moroso. Summit Point WV or Road Atlanta, or Roebling Road are sorta in the middle. I'd travel to Mid-Ohio for this challenge.

Stake your claim, bring what you like. I can find any old sportster around here for $2500 and have it ready in a week.

If you'd like a point-to-point race, set your points and your calendar and give me 2 weeks to show up.

Game on.

[JohninVT]

Hm. You got Loudon, I have Moroso. Summit Point WV or Road Atlanta, or Roebling Road are sorta in the middle. I'd travel to Mid-Ohio for this challenge.

Stake your claim, bring what you like. I can find any old sportster around here for $2500 and have it ready in a week.

If you'd like a point-to-point race, set your points and your calendar and give me 2 weeks to show up.

Game on.

OK.  Exit 3 in Brattleboro, VT to exit 14 in Burlington.  It’s 155 miles. My stock 2014 California 1400 Touring against any stock 883 from the 90’s.  I figure between the fact there�s a 25mph difference in topend and that you�ll have to stop in White River Junction to fill your peanut tank I should be on my second or third beer with all my gear in the chair next to me by the time you arrive.  Oh...and any time in November would be good.  A 90’s 883 can run heated gear, right?

[Perazzimx14]

I didn't say I was sure. I was making some,  perhaps optimistic, predictions but at least I was BASING them on the closest current product to what they are showing - THE STREET ROD... 

Speculation, prediction, mental masturbation, menstruation who cares. Like Johnny VT and pressure eagle I suggest we settle this like men! Thumb wrestling or a staring contest you choose. Pick your venue. Denny's, Cracker Barrel, Red Robin....

[elvisboy77]

Time will tell.  My personal experience, which is limited to a couple of friends bikes plus a few test rides while new bike shopping has left me unimpressed, which is why my expectations are low for anything that handles well, is light weight and reasonably priced coming from that manufacturer.