If you could

[flower_king001]

I'd buy a new 850 Lemans w/ carbs and points !

[yogidozer]

I own carbed bikes and bikes with FI and computer. I still prefer the bikes without all the computers and sensors. The carbed bikes just seem easier for my to track down and fix the problem when one arises. But with that said my '60's truck is giving me a bit of a fit right now.

With this said. I do like the FI bikes. You just start it up and ride. But when something goes wrong, they are for me a bit harder to tack down the problem. For me to LOVE the FI bikes, I would like to be able to hook up a scanner and have it tell me EXACTLY which part has failed. On a car I had to mess with, the scanner showed the code, but the code was rather cryptic and I had to guess what part made the code come up. Yes, I did look it up on the net and found the most likely cause and fixed it.

Tom

What's up with your truck?

[Tom H]

What's up with your truck?

It has a stumble that starts at about 60mph and once it starts it continues at all speeds that I need to figure out. I may make a new topic if I can't figure it out.

Thanks for asking!
Tom

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Carbs and points. Otherwise, it's just pointless. 

[Guzzistajohn]

I'm happy with DelOrtos and Dyna. But I'm not a mechanic or electronics/ computer dude either. Nor do I have a Guzzi dealer nearby. The setup I have has worked since '89 I say if it works-don't fix it. Cheers

[oldbike54]

I'm happy with DelOrtos and Dyna. But I'm not a mechanic or electronics/ computer dude either. Nor do I have a Guzzi dealer nearby. The setup I have has worked since '89 I say if it works-don't fix it. Cheers

 Don't you also own a modern Triumph , or am I imagining things 

 Dusty

[Luap McKeever]

EFI only. There's nothing to know about them. No more chokes. No warmup hiccups. Get on, start, go.  That's the way I live life :-)

[yogidozer]

EFI only. There's nothing to know about them. No more chokes. No warmup hiccups. Get on, start, go.  That's the way I live life :-)

Problem is you need a computer to go along with them. Then comes the sensors.
Properly jetted, carb. bikes warm up pretty quick, and your oil warms and circulates in the mean time.
BAZINGA!

[Guzzistajohn]

Don't you also own a modern Triumph , or am I imagining things 

 Dusty

I thought we were talking about our Moto Guzzis ?

A 2006 probably isn't considered "modern" to some of these guys <shrug>

[JJ]

My 20-year old '98 Centauro GT - fuel-injected, electronic-ignition, Will-Creedon-chip, etc.  The only thing in >7,000 miles that has DIED, since I have owned it, (...and replaced with another OEM model),  was the POS Veglia Borletti tach.

[lucian]

If this was a post 100 years ago it would be,  Would you rather buy a new ox or one of them modern kero burning tractors?      Give me the tractor

[stonelover]

Hope to turn eighty next month and have had my share of points & carbs.  Give me the electronic ignition & fuel injection.  Just want to ride without having to fiddle!

[JJ]

If this was a post 100 years ago it would be,  Would you rather buy a new ox or one of them modern kero burning tractors?      Give me the tractor

C'mon now....Guzzi's and Kerosene burning tractors...I see the correlation!! (LOL)

[oldbike54]

 I remember when electric starters were considered , er , well , a lack of masculinity 

 Dusty

[Shorty]

I remember when electric starters were considered , er , well , a lack of masculinity 

 Dusty

And those sissy boys with windshields and front brakes.....terrible .

[oldbike54]

And those sissy boys with windshields and front brakes.....terrible .

 Yep , and who needed a 5 , or even a 4 speed transmission , why if your motor is any good 3 speeds is all anyone needs , and whatever you so don't get me started on automatic advance ignition systems , a lever on the bars is all anyone needs to control ignition advance , right ?

 Dusty

[pebra]

I'm fine with carbs and electronic ignition. 

[lucian]

Awe screw it ,  just give me an all lectric bike with 200 ft lbs. of torque and  a  300 mile extension chord.

[Ncdan]

I own carbed bikes and bikes with FI and computer. I still prefer the bikes without all the computers and sensors. The carbed bikes just seem easier for my to track down and fix the problem when one arises. But with that said my '60's truck is giving me a bit of a fit right now.

With this said. I do like the FI bikes. You just start it up and ride. But when something goes wrong, they are for me a bit harder to tack down the problem. For me to LOVE the FI bikes, I would like to be able to hook up a scanner and have it tell me EXACTLY which part has failed. On a car I had to mess with, the scanner showed the code, but the code was rather cryptic and I had to guess what part made the code come up. Yes, I did look it up on the net and found the most likely cause and fixed it.

Tom

When one can hook up the lap top and let tell what the problem is and which part failed youbcan bet the bank that failed part is some kind of piece of crap that the EPA forced on manufacturers that's not necessary on a motorcycle in the first place. 90% of the garbage on today's bikes is not essential for a gasoline combustion engine to operate.

[SED]

When one can hook up the lap top and let tell what the problem is and which part failed youbcan bet the bank that failed part is some kind of piece of crap that the EPA forced on manufacturers that's not necessary on a motorcycle in the first place. 90% of the garbage on today's bikes is not essential for a gasoline combustion engine to operate.

Including the rear wheel!      Pretty sure some carbed bikes are still sold here.  More likely it is the hp and mpg demands of the market that push the computer controlled fuel injection solution.  Well mapped FI can optimize fuel to air for better power and economy at all temperatures and elevations.  I've followed plenty of stinky carbed bikes that make your eyes and nose burn after 30 minutes. 

Don't think the EPA has anything to do with it:


 

[yogidozer]

Yep , and who needed a 5 , or even a 4 speed transmission , why if your motor is any good 3 speeds is all anyone needs , and whatever you so don't get me started on automatic advance ignition systems , a lever on the bars is all anyone needs to control ignition advance , right ?

 Dusty

"I don't want Ty o go out and play, ma. I got an x box"

[oldbike54]

"I don't want Ty o go out and play, ma. I got an x box"

 Which apparently is much worse than pinball .

 Dusty

[Daleroso]

When you've lived long enough you you've learned that each evolution of industry/technology has their unique characteristics & level of aceptance. If it works it evolves, if not it goes away. (sometimes re-invented & improved a generation or more later.) What is true is something Grandpa said (a lifelong machinist), the more you have the more goes wrong.
Another thing leatned, Based on more than one experience, I will never buy another 1st year motorcycle. The final R&D is the street

[yogidozer]

But mom, I am playing outside.

[wirespokes]

More likely it is the hp and mpg demands of the market that push the computer controlled fuel injection solution.  Well mapped FI can optimize fuel to air for better power and economy at all temperatures and elevations.  I've followed plenty of stinky carbed bikes that make your eyes and nose burn after 30 minutes. 

Don't think the EPA has anything to do with it:

I figured EFI was a way to cut maintenance costs, so it's great for shops. The EPA likes it because it prevents owners from tampering - at least most of them. As for fuel economy, I don't see any difference - a well tuned carb gets about the same mileage as injection. Carbureted bikes were going as fast 50 or 60 years ago as they are now. But you're right - injection does compensate for temp and elevation - that's why it was first developed for aircraft.

As for poorly adjusted carbs, I've lived with BMWs that surged because the mapping was all screwed up compensating for EPA noise or CO standards. And BMW of course, denied there was a problem. It's not all roses on either side of the fence, but at least with carbs I can swap jets, needles, floats and make adjustments to get it right. It's a good thing you Guzzi injected guys have a guru in your back pocket to straighten out messes like that. 

[Murray]

Another “what if” question.   Could we make points and carbs be better than they used to be with modern technology?

For example, we now routinely make spark plugs with exotic metals that resist electrostatic erosion much better.  What if we made points out of that metal so they lasted 100,000 miles. 

Maybe precision CNC machines, and improved gasket materials, could create better carbs.

The main thing that extended plus life is the removal of lead in fuel the materials have helped a bit although its more about stopping the high powered ignitions burning out conventional plugs. Higher compression makes it harder to throw a spark to keep up ingitions have gone from about 5000volts to 15-20 Kv. Magnetos are still used in drag racing for a reson.

[Tom H]

On the MPG thing. You would think the EFI bikes should get better mileage, but....

On my commute, my '72 850 Eldo carb, '04 1100 EVT EFI and the '07 Harley 1600cc EFI all got 40mpg or very close. 120 miles on 3 gallons. My '70 Ambo is the lame duck at about 36-38 mpg. Heck, my '62 F100 inline 6 gets about what my '14 F150 V6 does. F100 120 miles at about 70 mph freeway used about 9 gallons. F150 with mixed but mainly freeway and 120 miles used about 8 gallons per the computer.

Just some thoughts,
Tom

[Kev m]

What is true is something Grandpa said (a lifelong machinist), the more you have the more goes wrong.

It depends on what he meant.

There are more possibilities of things that can go wrong, that's true.

But many times what people instinctively want to assume is true science or at least disciplined analysis later proves untrue.

It's a generally proven fact that on a whole vehicles today require fewer repairs (are more reliable).

Just because a system has more possible routes to failure doesn't mean it will more often.

[Kev m]

I figured EFI was a way to cut maintenance costs, so it's great for shops. The EPA likes it because it prevents owners from tampering - at least most of them. As for fuel economy, I don't see any difference - a well tuned carb gets about the same mileage as injection. Carbureted bikes were going as fast 50 or 60 years ago as they are now. But you're right - injection does compensate for temp and elevation - that's why it was first developed for aircraft.

As for poorly adjusted carbs, I've lived with BMWs that surged because the mapping was all screwed up compensating for EPA noise or CO standards. And BMW of course, denied there was a problem. It's not all roses on either side of the fence, but at least with carbs I can swap jets, needles, floats and make adjustments to get it right. It's a good thing you Guzzi injected guys have a guru in your back pocket to straighten out messes like that.

There is no question that EFI (first open-loop and eventually closed-loop) was primarily driven by emmisions standards.

Thanks to the sometimes ridiculous testing conditions/emissions targets and unintended consequences of them carburetors can generally match power and mpg while polluting more.

The only thing the carbs can't due is safely approach the lean conditions required for best catalytic converter operation. You can see this in the evolution from open to closed loop systems, the adoption of cat-cons, and the increase in cylinder head temps and strategies for cooling air-cooled motors as the standards got tighter.

[Kev m]

On the MPG thing. You would think the EFI bikes should get better mileage, but....

On my commute, my '72 850 Eldo carb, '04 1100 EVT EFI and the '07 Harley 1600cc EFI all got 40mpg or very close. 120 miles on 3 gallons. My '70 Ambo is the lame duck at about 36-38 mpg. Heck, my '62 F100 inline 6 gets about what my '14 F150 V6 does. F100 120 miles at about 70 mph freeway used about 9 gallons. F150 with mixed but mainly freeway and 120 miles used about 8 gallons per the computer.

Just some thoughts,
Tom

The EFI machines in your examples are generally managing to get the same mpg out of heavier machined while making more hp, so they ARE more efficient. They also could likely be even more efficient if they weren't strangled with attempts to limit/control exhaust gases. You sometimes see this when a bike is retuned for more power and still manages the same or better mileage.