Hydro motor - bad years

[dxhall]

Can anyone tell me the years of the California model with bad hydraulic lifters?  Am I correct that it was only 2003 to 2005?

[Kev m]

Can anyone tell me the years of the California model with bad hydraulic lifters?  Am I correct that it was only 2003 to 2005?

All

I.E. all the Cali Tonti Hydros were defective. They stopped building them before the final fix was found.

It might have been only 03-04, I forget.

But it ended with the debut of the solid-lifter Cal-Vin with solid lifters and Breva 11 engine internals.

[Kev m]

Hmm, Google suggests you're correct 03-05 though some sources suggest there may have been an 06 (or they were selling leftovers). Looks like the Cal-Vin replaced it by 07ish.

[pete roper]

We had 2004 plated Hydros here, my mate Peter has one, it had the 'Final' fix in it from the factory. My 2003 has one of the 'Intermediate' fixes that didn't. I think the 'Final Fix Ex-Factory' occurred some time in late 2003 and the model was discontinued shortly thereafter. Real info is all a bit vague though.

Pete

[Ncdan]

It's down right amazing that a motorcycle cycle designer and manufacturer could have let a fault that massive out the door in the first place. My first Guzzi was an 04 EV, I didn't keep it very long though.

[Kev m]

We had 2004 plated Hydros here, my mate Peter has one, it had the 'Final' fix in it from the factory. My 2003 has one of the 'Intermediate' fixes that didn't. I think the 'Final Fix Ex-Factory' occurred some time in late 2003 and the model was discontinued shortly thereafter. Real info is all a bit vague though.

Pete

I wonder if that was true in the US too (I'm guessing probably since we seemed to get everything a little later than everyone else).

I'm going on memory, and it might be faulty at this point.

I just don't recall hearing about the final fix until after they were discontinued.

But that was about the time I was getting involved with Guzzi - I was looking at a new Hydro Stone Touring and bought the Jackal that had been sitting instead.

[Dilliw]

In the U.S. they were all '03-'04 but other markets I think got the EVT  Touring I (black/chrome, no heated grips, no powerlet, and no matching side panniers) in 2002.  There might be 2005's in other markets as well.

The front crossover pipe is an quick giveaway for a hydro as the previous solid lifter bikes didn't have them and neither did the Vintage.

Edit: A search shows it as the 2002 California EV Touring PI.  These bikes came to the U.S. as '03s and only in black/chrome (with the missing stuff).  That's what mine is as Zibell (first owner) bought it as soon as it landed.

[Nick]

Guzzi muddied the waters even more with the US bound 2003 MY. The first half of the year they are basically the same as 2002 and the second half they are the same as 2004. One of the distinguishing feature is the side stand. I purchased my 2003/2004 new, in 2006, from MI and they did the recall before they shipped it to me. It has 55K miles and that engine runs beautifully (known wood ;-) )

[John Croucher]

The wear problems moved from the cam and bucket to the rocker arms and valve stems. The valve stem end gets poor lubrication from the oil run off from the rocker arm, causing the wear.  The Hydro motor still needs to have the valves adjusted.  I have taken three engines apart with less than 20,000 miles and seen the same wear problem. 

Cam chain tensioner only prevent the cam chain from wearing through the side of the crank case.  Does not hold any tension.   

The exhaust valves float and hit the piston.  All three engines I have taken apart had indication of the exhaust valve hitting the top of the piston.

Just reporting what I have found, your mileage may very.  Good motor though. 

 

[Dilliw]

Guzzi muddied the waters even more with the US bound 2003 MY. The first half of the year they are basically the same as 2002 and the second half they are the same as 2004. One of the distinguishing feature is the side stand. I purchased my 2003/2004 new, in 2006, from MI and they did the recall before they shipped it to me. It has 55K miles and that engine runs beautifully (known wood ;-) )

Come on old man, admit that you have no clue how many miles that pig has on it!  After all, it did/does have an ITI speedo :)

[xackley]

Come on you guys are making me nervous. I have a 2003, configured like the 2002. Everything I read before this thread was how great the hydro is once the fix was done.

[Kev m]

The wear problems moved from the cam and bucket to the rocker arms and valve stems. The valve stem end gets poor lubrication from the oil run off from the rocker arm, causing the wear.  The Hydro motor still needs to have the valves adjusted.  I have taken three engines apart with less than 20,000 miles and seen the same wear problem. 

Cam chain tensioner only prevent the cam chain from wearing through the side of the crank case.  Does not hold any tension.   

The exhaust valves float and hit the piston.  All three engines I have taken apart had indication of the exhaust valve hitting the top of the piston.

Just reporting what I have found, your mileage may very.  Good motor though. 

 

All right, no dog in this hunt, but I gotta know (and I think others are starting to wonder).

Do you know for sure that the failed motors you worked on all had the "final" fix, since we know there were at least one or two attempts at a fix before that one was settled upon.

[John Croucher]

All right, no dog in this hunt, but I gotta know (and I think others are starting to wonder).

Do you know for sure that the failed motors you worked on all had the "final" fix, since we know there were at least one or two attempts at a fix before that one was settled upon.

All three had the fix.  The picture shown is from my engine that had less than 20,000 miles when this picture was taken and 14,000 after the fix.  The last engine, the one on my bench, the right side head gasket  and the left side base gasket were blown after the fix.  Who ever was doing the "fixing" was not doing a very good job.  The cams and buckets all look great.  No wear. 

I might add, insult to injury, the valve guides were all worn also.  Allowing a lot of oil to pass thru. 

[bigbikerrick]

The wear problems moved from the cam and bucket to the rocker arms and valve stems. The valve stem end gets poor lubrication from the oil run off from the rocker arm, causing the wear.  The Hydro motor still needs to have the valves adjusted.  I have taken three engines apart with less than 20,000 miles and seen the same wear problem. 

Cam chain tensioner only prevent the cam chain from wearing through the side of the crank case.  Does not hold any tension.   

The exhaust valves float and hit the piston.  All three engines I have taken apart had indication of the exhaust valve hitting the top of the piston.

What do you men by "the hydro motor still needs to have the valves adjusted?"  This has to be done when the "fix" was done, or at other times after the engine is fixed?
thanks
Rick.
Thanks Rick.

Just reporting what I have found, your mileage may very.  Good motor though. 

 

[Kev m]

All three had the fix.  The picture shown is from my engine that had less than 20,000 miles when this picture was taken and 14,000 after the fix.

But to be clear - all three had "THE fix"... not the first or second but the final version of the fix?

I've only watched the debacle from afar, but I'm under the impression there were multiple kits, and the first one or two versions of the kits were considered faulty and all Hydros needed the FINAL version of the kit to be considered "fixed".

[Dilliw]

But to be clear - all three had "THE fix"... not the first or second but the final version of the fix?

I've only watched the debacle from afar, but I'm under the impression there were multiple kits, and the first one or two versions of the kits were considered faulty and all Hydros needed the FINAL version of the kit to be considered "fixed".

Mine has the "not the final fix" in that it doesn't have the set then snap off rockers.  If the pictures are right on Ebay that's 000030498720, and the one with set and snap is 000030498700.   Which came first is anyone's guess but my kit arrived in the U.S. in 2006. 

I made it at least 30k miles (Zibell says 50k miles) before having the upgrade done and now has 85k to 105k miles (that's 3 ITI speedos) and has never shown any signs of trouble.  The "final" word that I know of is if it has the al spring retainers it fixed the problem that plagued the early hydro.

That said, I have seen a hydro with a blown head (exhaust valve failure) and it did have the recall.  The suggestion was to take mine to a VW bug specialist and have it checked since they are quite versed at handling that sort of thing.  I've never done it however.

[Wayne Orwig]

Do you know for sure that the failed motors you worked on all had the "final" fix, since we know there were at least one or two attempts at a fix before that one was settled upon.

John is showing wear in the top of the valve stem. NOT wear on the cam lobe or valve tappet. Not sure that is a critical issue. I had similar wear on the round adjuster on my 1994 California.
He also sees a lot of valve guide wear, and I have seen a good bit of that too at 100,000 miles. Not sure that is due to side loading of the valve or what. (maybe indirectly related to above)
He feels that the clearance of the hydraulic plunger needs to be adjusted regularly. That confuses me, since that is the point of the automatic adjustment.

From what I have seen on mine, ever 100,000 miles, get the valve guides checked if towing a large camper across country a lot, pushing a large fairing.

[Nick]

Come on old man, admit that you have no clue how many miles that pig has on it!  After all, it did/does have an ITI speedo :)

Well.....the first ITI went at 8,802 miles, the second 32,749, then I had 2,416 on a GPS because the second broke when I was on the way to Texas, and I have 14,944 on the latest speedometer, a VDO.
George, as you know, it ain't easy owning a Guzzi   

[pete roper]

Look, if it's of any interest I'm going to be doing a full top end strip on my POS when I have time to scratch myself. At 130,000 km, (By ITI odometer  ) I reckon it's time for rings, K-lines and a cam chain anyway so I'll just pull it to bits rather than farting about with the special toolkit.

This turd has definitely not had the 'Final' fix but must of had, or been factory fitted with one of the 'Intermediate' ones as it is still silent. It'll be interesting to see what is worn and what isn't.

Pete

[Tom H]

Pete, looking forward to what you find

Tom

[Jose Mendez]

Hey Guys, I don't post much. Mainly because I am not a mechanic or handy with motorcycles. I have learned quite a bit from the postings and I try to read as many as I can in my allotted weekly computer time.  All I can do in this case is share my experiences.


I have a 2003 Hydro California.  Bought it new and it was my first new bike. My first engine lasted 40,000 miles before the engine needed replacement. Long story made short, I received a used hydro engine with the updates from a warehouses in Atlanta GA. It was shipped and installed in Detroit, MI by Detroit Cycles. The 2nd engine has function admirable. I am not going to say how many miles I have on it, but it's a lot. Maintenance is regularly performed and she's going out in the morning for pie and coffee in Brenham.
 


 

[dxhall]

A Texas dealer is selling a very low mile 2003 EV.  I asked about the recall.  His response:

Hello Dennis,
We checked with a Guzzi dealer and there was not a recall for this specific bike and has no open recall campaigns either.
Bike runs a good and seems to have no issues.

Is this why in 50 years of riding I have never purchased a bike from a dealer?

[Ronkom]

I was told by the mechanic who did the work at the time that every hydro Guzzi sold by Westmoreland Cycle in Greensburg Pa. was opened up and "shimmed" before the bikes were sold.....and none of them ever had an issue.  "Hunchie" the owner of Westmoreland Cycle passed away several years ago, and his son closed up the business. It's hard to imagine uncrating a brand new motorcycle and having to tear into the motor before it could be sold, but that's what I was told by a man I trust.
Ronkom 

[Wayne Orwig]

A Texas dealer is selling a very low mile 2003 EV.  I asked about the recall.  His response:

Hello Dennis,
We checked with a Guzzi dealer and there was not a recall for this specific bike and has no open recall campaigns either.
Bike runs a good and seems to have no issues.

Is this why in 50 years of riding I have never purchased a bike from a dealer?

They are right. It was NOT a 'recall'. It was a technical update, or some such thing.

[Kiwi Dave]

I did the update on two EV Tourings, with kits provided from Moto International, who supplied the bikes.

The kit offered new camshaft, followers and valve springs, and shimming of the valve springs was necessary.

But I believe the main cause of the problem was the valve springs were considerably stronger than that spec'ed by Guzzi.  This went unnoticed and there were a couple of earlier fixes which did not solve the problem.

[dxhall]

Would the fix for a low mileage bike be just to install weaker valve springs?

[pete roper]

They are right. It was NOT a 'recall'. It was a technical update, or some such thing.

From memory the only 'Recall' was for the bottom yoke cracks because that was a direct 'Safety' issue. Everything else was just weaseling out of responsibility.

With the springs the 'Good' ones in the final recall kit, when shimmed correctly, have the same seating poundage but less pressure at full lift. Given the cam damage it's easy to see why this makes sense.

Interestingly the cam damage on 8V's is entirely different as it wasn't a poundage problem.

As for would lighter springs 'Fix it'? My opinion is probably not alone as the entire valvetrain was substantially lightened as well.

Pete

[dxhall]

AF1 shows the not-recall kit available at $2700.  That seems a little steep for a cam, lifters, and springs.  I’m seeing no reason to buy an un-updated bike.

[Kiwi Dave]

Would the fix for a low mileage bike be just to install weaker valve springs?

Dunno.  You might get away with it, but the official fix included shims, valve springs, camshaft and followers.  Half a fix might be as bad as no fix.

[Wayne Orwig]

$2700. Ouch.

The lighter springs need the lighter spring tops. The cam has extra oiling holes. The rockers are to add adjustability, to get the lifters in the right operating range.

No idea why they would be wanting so much.