Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: guzzi771 on April 30, 2020, 04:45:09 PM
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My 2016 Norge runs so much better now thanks to the Booster Plug and Sprint air filter money well spent
(https://i.ibb.co/VMjq6Ck/IMG-0643.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VMjq6Ck)
(https://i.ibb.co/1KgCPzX/IMG-0653.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1KgCPzX)
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:popcorn:
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After 500 km on my new 2018 Eldorado , I got and installed a booster plug , that was all I needed to improve the
low speed running . Nice and easy :thumb:, Peter
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:popcorn:
Move over I wanna good seat to witness the spectacle about to unfold :popcorn:
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At some point repeating the consequences of running a booster plug and open air filter just seems senseless . It's like the car tire argument , or the discussion about whether we have been to the moon , no one's mind gets changed .
Dusty
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At some point repeating the consequences of running a booster plug and open air filter just seems senseless . It's like the car tire argument , or the discussion about whether we have been to the moon , no one's mind gets changed .
Dusty
What consequences are you taking about ? My Guzzi runs better now and thats a good thing .
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What consequences are you taking about ? My Guzzi runs better now and thats a good thing .
Do you understand what that booster plug/fat duc thing is actually doing ?
Dusty
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Do you understand what that booster plug/fat duc thing is actually doing ?
Dusty
Please tell me because my bike runs better not worse
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Please tell me because my bike runs better not worse
The booster plug is a spoofer , it is nothing more than a 50C resistor that is telling the computer that the engine is cold . The funny thing is , on the official Booster Plug website they admit they are selling snake oil , because they call the "other" products that do exactly the same thing snake oil . A proper remap is way more effective , and won't cause the engine to overfuel . There are probably 20 threads on WG that explain the reality of this .
Dusty
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The booster plug is a spoofer , it is nothing more than a 50C resistor that is telling the computer that the engine is cold . The funny thing is , on the official Booster Plug website they admit they are selling snake oil , because they call the "other" products that do exactly the same thing snake oil . A proper remap is way more effective , and won't cause the engine to overfuel . There are probably 20 threads on WG that explain the reality of this .
Dusty
Thanks for warning I'll research it .
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That’s how all the plug and play units work. The original patent (Guy named Dubec) expired several years ago. Hence the plethora of Optimizers, O2 tweakers and such in the last decade or so. Dynojet for many years had exclusive licensing rights.
Sorta like Paul’s patent with emulators. For years Racetech was the only game in town. Now they’re all over the place
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Move over I wanna good seat to witness the spectacle about to unfold :popcorn:
Yea
If all it works on is temp sensors it'll wash cyl walls at some point.
Better to just turn off O2's
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I've gone through most of these earlier posts concerning the "booster plug " , consensus appeared that
those that don't like the idea poo pooed them , those that installed them enjoyed them , no remarks of
people that used them actually removing them . The greatest criticism came from those that hadn't used them.
(not completely unusual ). If it works for you , then Yahoo . These discussions are what keep us coming back
to this site , heck, some peoples opinions about tires and seats are different than mine too :grin:. Peter
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I've gone through most of these earlier posts concerning the "booster plug " , consensus appeared that
those that don't like the idea poo pooed them , those that installed them enjoyed them , no remarks of
people that used them actually removing them . The greatest criticism came from those that hadn't used them.
(not completely unusual ). If it works for you , then Yahoo . These discussions are what keep us coming back
to this site , heck, some peoples opinions about tires and seats are different than mine too :grin:. Peter
Pete Roper has posted about engines he has torn down that were ruined by spoofers . You are basically over jetting the engine and washing the cylinder wall down with gasoline . A proper remap is the answer , not these over priced pieces of nonsense .
Dusty
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I'll let you know in a decade or so :boozing: . Peter
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I tried one on my Norge, seemed like a cheap way to make the bike run better (Guzzi content). On my first trip with the kit the bike ran so rich it fouled the O2 sensors to the point where the bike went into limp mode. Oh, and fuel mileage dropped to the mid 20s. I removed that POS as soon as I got to my destination (700 miles) and borrowed a pair of O2 sensors so I could get home. A simple remap of the ECU proved to be a much better solution. Over time a spoofer will wash the cylinders and cause excess ring wear.
Peter Y.
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Spoofers, by their definition fatten up the mixture. This sounds like a good theory if indeed the mixture is always lean.
The danger is that mapping is NOT always lean as it is only regulated so under certain operating conditions.
We've been told by a few who have deep dived into multiple Guzzi maps that they go rich, pig rich, at certain times including WOT.
So those times will be over-fueling.
One of the best Guzzi mechanics we know has warned us that he has personally torn down a few Guzzi motors destroyed by these things.
So even if you get away with it for a while you are still risking catastrophic failure over time. Seems like a silly thing to risk for a perception of better "performance".
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Move over I wanna good seat to witness the spectacle about to unfold :popcorn:
We're like a herd of Lemmings pulling over at a car crash :evil:
Let the games begin,lol :laugh:
:popcorn: :popcorn:
Kelly
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Using the word perception must come from a nay sayer , not a user .
On another note , please publish the dyno , exhaust gas readings from
a dyno'd California or Eldorado . Engine temp readings would be nice too.
:azn:Peter
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Here's a good explanation by roger04rt on AdvRider.com of how the BMW ECUs deal with the Booster Plug - in a few tankfulls the ECU corrects out it's initial effect. Does anyone know if the Guzzsi ECU reacts similarly?
When you install just the boosterplug, it changes the temperature signal sent from the intake manifold to the ECU (Motronic or BMSX). Momentarily, that results in the ECU seeing a cooler air temperature and adding about 6% fuel. However, moments after that, the ECU is reading the O2 sensor, sees that the mixture is too rich and within seconds reduces the fueling to exactly where it had been before the addition of the BoosterPlug (let's not just pick on them, every IAT shifter has this problem). And worse, after enough riding, all the long term trims have fully adjust to the IAT temperature shift and there is no fueling difference anywhere--the long term trims are all set to about 0.94, which is 6% less than 1.00. So the simple math is that the BoosterPlug says to add 6% to fueling and the Long Term Trims say to remove 6% fueling and you end up back at stock fueling. https://advrider.com/f/threads/2004-r1150rt-wideband-o2-sensor-project-and-af-xied-for-bmw.749080/page-112
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These spoofers are like "engine rebuild in a can" snake oil , there is no substitute for a proper remap .
Anyone else remember those little fan thingies advertised in the bike mags that when installed in the intake tracts would boost power by some incredible amount ? Yeah , they were the blades from computer cooling fans :laugh:
My favorite is still the 100 MPG carburetor , although I haven't heard about one of those in a few years :grin:
Dusty
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My favorite is still the 100 MPG carburetor , although I haven't heard about one of those in a few years :grin:
Dusty
Oh the Pogue carburetor. My favorite useless invention.
Problem with ‘em is nobody wants to carry an unstable thermobaric bomb around. Understandably! But Then again..maybe the 75% failure rate (read explosions) In testing is part of some great conspiracy 🤪
I remember the “turbine induction” blades. They always seem to be the equivalent of Pet Rocks!
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Gentleman , I've never suggested that the remapped ecu wasn't a good ( or even excellent idea ) , but there is no Beetle map for the Eldorados !
Also these remarks about the ecu basically eliminating the effects of the booster plug , well to that I'd have to ask "how long does it take "? 'Cuz
it doesn't appear to have changed in the last 800 km . And guys , don't get me wrong , I pretty much started a conversation to hear peoples
experiences ( the "2018 Eldorado thread), at that time there were very few with actual experiences replying , I wasn't attempting
to hi jack this thread , it's just about similar bikes with similar concerns . And I have read remarks from those that removed it :azn: , Great , I'm
not about to poop on others better experiences . Peter
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Using the word perception must come from a nay sayer , not a user .
On another note , please publish the dyno , exhaust gas readings from
a dyno'd California or Eldorado . Engine temp readings would be nice too.
:azn:Peter
The word perception comes from a user of other types of these devices on other platforms (O2 foolers on Harleys). No exhaust gas analyzer, but cylinder head temp readings with a laser pyrometer and tracking fuel mileage lead me to conclude there was little to no benefit.
On Guzzis I went another route and had a reflash done by Guzzitech on a CARC, the improvements were noticeable, including a otherwise paradoxical seeming INCREASED fuel mileage with at higher rpms/WOT. But the explanation I received from Pete and Beetle was that the Guzzi maps being overfueled at those points so Todd must have been smart enough to back out some of the fueling at those points to help.
But I'll anxiously await the before and after data from your dyno runs and exhaust gas analysis since you brought it up.
Here's a good explanation by roger04rt on AdvRider.com of how the BMW ECUs deal with the Booster Plug - in a few tankfulls the ECU corrects out it's initial effect. Does anyone know if the Guzzsi ECU reacts similarly?
When you install just the boosterplug, it changes the temperature signal sent from the intake manifold to the ECU (Motronic or BMSX). Momentarily, that results in the ECU seeing a cooler air temperature and adding about 6% fuel. However, moments after that, the ECU is reading the O2 sensor, sees that the mixture is too rich and within seconds reduces the fueling to exactly where it had been before the addition of the BoosterPlug (let's not just pick on them, every IAT shifter has this problem). And worse, after enough riding, all the long term trims have fully adjust to the IAT temperature shift and there is no fueling difference anywhere--the long term trims are all set to about 0.94, which is 6% less than 1.00. So the simple math is that the BoosterPlug says to add 6% to fueling and the Long Term Trims say to remove 6% fueling and you end up back at stock fueling. https://advrider.com/f/threads/2004-r1150rt-wideband-o2-sensor-project-and-af-xied-for-bmw.749080/page-112
Yes, it's called fuel trim and most (all?) forms of modern feedback injection use some form of fuel trim whereby small adjustments are made over time to compensate for differences in the system (basic wear).
That was the conclusion we reached on O2 sensor spoofers and it doesn't surprise me that others have reached the same one with air temp spoofers.
I will say that the amount of trim and the total effect on the map may vary from brand-to-brand or model-to-model. But I would expect the same end result over time.
How much time M-U asks - many tankfuls. And it happens very slowly, which is something that can be hard to notice as one gets used to the feel of a machine as they use it more and more.
Why did I originally use the term "perceive" because a lot of people will refer to things like
* Smoothness
* Power
and PERCEIVE what they expected to perceive and absent that data, well, they are often fooled.
It's one of the reasons why a mechanic sometimes jumps on a customer's bike and goes "holy crap this is wrong" and the customer is like "what do you mean". It's because they are USED to it so they don't notice it the same way, it doesn't jump out at them.
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If your new bike runs like crap and the dealer needs you to pay for their learning curve and cannot show any improvement, you would be willing to try most things, even things that are detrimental for the bikes health . I was there once myself but through learning and experience , I won’t do it that way again.
Edit, just reread the op, that’s not a new bike. My opinion is still the same but with more options there are better ways
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Good points all , but possibly 42 years as a motorcycle mechanic in Harley shops and Yamaha shops gives one
a bit of hands on experience , and yes dyno times were spent mostly on Harleys , they wanted bragging rights and
were only too willing to pay for it . I spent some time with my much modified Le Mans 2 on the dyno . But I have no
interest at all in putting mine on one , I was simply asking for recorded proof ( not completely unwarranted ) .
I live on a steep (all be it short ) driveway and for the first 500 km I simply had my wife wait at the top before getting
on , after said component change she gets on with me and we're off , no revving , just smooth take up .
I'm kinda curious about these remarks suggesting how in time , the ECU decides to ignore any of the connected sensors
and randomly just go with another one of choice . Didn't notice it on any of the other brands I worked on , but
maybe 2018 Eldorado's are different ? If this is correct , then I should eventually discover that my bike with my
wife on the back will no longer slide up the driveway at 1700rpm ? I'll definitely report back , it's not like I've got
a crap load of time and energy invested in this . And as lovely as the Guzzi Teck components sound , they are right out
of my price range .
Sorry "John A " , but I never mentioned it ran like crap , just the low speed was rougher than I wanted . More than a few people
thought driving a 1400 cc twin at anything less than it's torque peak rpm was crazy .
And isn't this way more fun than listening to the news ? Peter
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I put an O2 Optimyzer on my Breva 1100 not long after I got it. It did seem to run smoother at low rpm's. I left it on for a while, until I read some of Pete's posts about the damage they can cause. I removed it and strangely, I couldn't tell any difference in how the bike ran.
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I went for 200+ mile ride today in the Texas hill county and my Norge GT 8V ran perfect . I have a Agostini slip on exhaust and a compensator eliminator on order I can't wait to get the Norge fully uncorked . The intake is much louder now with the Sprint air filter and snorkel removed air flow is much better. I could not be more happy with the Booster plug and improved throttle response and faster acceleration ,gas milage is the same or better.
(https://i.ibb.co/stFbfyp/95586964-10218983835201583-8882212966238257152-n.jpg) (https://ibb.co/stFbfyp)
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1. Who said I didn't have a map for the 2018 Eldorado?
2. What happened to Huzo's post?
3. Even with your booster plug, the autolearning still occurs. However, the window in which it runs closed loop has been narrowed somewhat.
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2. What happened to Huzo's post?
I pulled it..
If I keep going, I’m just going to get worse....
I’m comfortable with the fact that I’ve got the best Norge going around and have become uncharacteristicall y smug...
I don’t have to convince any bastard, or prove anything to anyone..(for once).. :wink:
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Fairies Nuts.
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Choose to ignore warnings from Pete Roper if you like, it's your Engine after all, and can be replaced, in a year or two (depending on your mileage).
What I can never understand is this;
A Remap can be done by pretty-much anyone that can operate a Laptop, and connect a few plugs.
The Programs required (GuzziDiag, and TunerPro) are free to download.
The Cables to connect Laptop to Bike are around £25-30.
Maps can be had for free.
Even if you had to buy a cheap used Laptop, you'd still have spent less than you would buying one of these poxy 'plug-n-play' things.
Once you've got the above items, you can also do basic Servicing tasks, like resetting the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) after a Throttle Sync/Balance, and check various parameters in real-time.
You can also play around with the Map yourself via the TunerPro program.
For instance, I switched the Fuel delivery off completely on a closed Throttle, above 2750rpm.
Result is stronger Engine Braking, zero popping/banging on the over-run, and a slight improvement in fuel economy.
I also tweaked my Speedo Readout, initially to compensate for the 17" Griso Wheel I fitted to the front of my Stelvio, then later to get the readout spot-on the same as a GPS Speed reading.
Look at it like this, if you had a big Stone in your Boot, making it really uncomfortable to walk, would you;
A. Put on half-a-dozen thick (and expensive) Socks to reduce the discomfort (the Sensor Fooler)
B. Take the Stone out of your Boot (the Re-Map)?
Bit of a no-brainer I'd say
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I’m just perplexed as to why the ultimate solution is there at the end of a keyboard and guys just search for alternatives, then try to convince others.
The Titanic is sinking..
Passenger climbs into a perfectly serviceable life boat and certain salvation.
Another passenger says..
“Why not try MY lifeboat..”
“She’s right mate Van Gogh...”(I got one ‘ere)
“But mate why not try THIS one..”
“Because MY BASTARD WORKS RIGHT NOW”...!
Too cryptic...?
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I pulled it..
If I keep going, I’m just going to get worse....
I’m comfortable with the fact that I’ve got the best Norge going around and have become uncharacteristicall y smug...
I don’t have to convince any bastard, or prove anything to anyone..(for once).. :wink:
That’s what makes it fun, I just want the best running, fastest example of my particular motorcycle around. I think we all do when we start modifying the damn thing.
There was a saying from drag racing “ who sold you that tune up?” Usually derogatory in nature. Bear in mind a tune up is basically the whole engine in that context. I think it applies here as well. It’s all part of the fun
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As a general rule , Wild Guzzi is resistant to products that are potentially harmful to a Moto Guzzi . These spoofers are snake oil , once again a 50C resister sold in a fancy package .
That said , we are all free to do what we want to our own motorbikes , if snake oil makes you happy , then great . If air filters that don't filter are your thing , also your business . I think we are done with this , these discussions never end well , do we all agree ? Good .
Dusty
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Gentleman , may I say great to hear from everyone :thumb: . "Beetle " I believe it was not too long ago that
it was mentioned and I searched for an Eldorado map and there was remarks concerning damaging the ECU .
If that's changed , goody , I have no problem with the idea of remapping . As mentioned earlier I've spent some
time on dynos ( mostly Power Commanders and a couple of other complete ECU replacements ) , so if you've made
whatever adjustments to your program , I'm game . It's not like we don't have time for the learning curve . Best
Regards to everyone that's responded , Peter
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I appreciate all the reply's advice,tips and warnings of catastropic damage to my Guzzi I'm here to learn all I can about these bikes . I also like to get as many opinions as I can I don't believe everything I read or hear especially on CNN . There is a lot of propaganda out there everyone has a opinion or a agenda and sometimes it's hard to find the truth . I've been racing,riding and working on motocycles since 1972 and have owned more than 50 bikes mostly sportbikes . I just found out last week about the booster plug device some like it some don't the biggest complaint I heard was it make the bike run rich . I put new plugs in the Guzzi and went on a long test ride then did a plug check . The plugs show that it's running more lean than rich so I checked my V7III plugs for comparison they all looked more lean than rich .
(https://i.ibb.co/t3Nm5ZM/95715708-10219003836341599-7333757529521913856-n.jpg) (https://ibb.co/t3Nm5ZM)
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Sounds like the computer has already decided the spoofer is lying .
Dusty
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Sounds like the computer has already decided the spoofer is lying .
Dusty
Spark Plugs don't lie
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Spark Plugs don't lie
Very true, the single electrode plugs look almost perfect. The dual electrode plugs look a tad lean.
Paul B :boozing:
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Spark Plugs don't lie
No , but spoofers do .
Dusty
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No , but spoofers do .
Dusty
Well its a damn good lie and I want it to keep lying because the more the spoofer lies and doesn't run too rich the better my Guzzi runs
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Well its a damn good lie and I want it to keep lying because the more the spoofer lies and doesn't run too rich the better my Guzzi runs
I’m not baiting you here mate, because I don’t want this thread nuked..
You are adamant that your bike is going well, not overly thirsty and you seem to know your stuff well.
Can you tell me what litres/100 km results you get at 100-120 kph on an average day with no screeching head/tailwinds etc..?
Bear in mind that the on board averagers are not accurate, but the pump reading for litres added will be good.
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I’m not baiting you here mate, because I don’t want this thread nuked..
You are adamant that your bike is going well, not overly thirsty and you seem to know your stuff well.
Can you tell me what litres/100 km results you get at 100-120 kph on an average day with no screeching head/tailwinds etc..?
Bear in mind that the on board averagers are not accurate, but the pump reading for litres added will be good.
I'm getting 50-55 miles per us gallon at 65-75 mph and the bike runs lean not rich at all
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Well its a damn good lie and I want it to keep lying because the more the spoofer lies and doesn't run too rich the better my Guzzi runs
So what is your connection to the company ?
Dusty
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Spark Plugs don't lie
Actually absent a plug chop, they do.
No one is saying there aren't lean spots in the map. They're saying they're are also rich spots. Any if you richen everything you risk really over-richening at those points.
Do it again and again, and you may score and score the cylinder, c eventually leading to failure.
It's not instant. And those plugs may burn lean and hot most of the time and show no evidence of what is happening some of the time.
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I also like to get as many opinions as I can I don't believe everything I read or hear especially on CNN . There is a lot of propaganda out there everyone has a opinion or a agenda and sometimes it's hard to find the truth .
Sorry Dusty, as Ron White said..."I have the right to remain silent but I couldn't do it."
Guzzi771:
It appears that you have been listening to the Faux News version of this issue. With all due respect I do not think that you have a realization of the collective wisdom, experience, and knowledge of the people posting replies here. Everyone here is really trying to help you out and your device is really not good for your Guzzi.
GliderJohn
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I'm getting 50-55 miles per us gallon at 65-75 mph and the bike runs lean not rich at all
Well, that is extraordinary.
That being the case, I congratulate you and gently back away rom the till.... :wink:
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So what is your connection to the company ?
Dusty
You got to be shiting me are you serious ?
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You got to be shiting me are you serious ?
Look bud , you are claiming a 50 cent resister is making your motorbike get 55-60 MPG and apparently make more HP . If you understood stoichiometry and what that 50 cent resister is incapable of , you would understand why I am struggling to believe your claims . I know you are calling us purists on another site , and think we are a bunch of numpties ,but trust me , the collective knowledge here is equal to or greater than most places on the internet , we have heard it all and know nonsense when we see it .
Dusty
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Look bud , you are claiming a 50 cent resister is making your motorbike get 55-60 MPG and apparently make more HP . If you understood stoichiometry and what that 50 cent resister is incapable of , you would understand why I am struggling to believe your claims . I know you are calling us purists on another site , and think we are a bunch of numpties ,but trust me , the collective knowledge here is equal to or greater than most places on the internet , we have heard it all and know nonsense when we see it .
Dusty
Well I don't need your knowledge and I know nonsense and BS when I see it too
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You got to be shiting me are you serious ?
It’s actually got 2 “t’s” in it, but carry on.. :popcorn:
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Well I don't need your knowledge and I know nonsense and BS when I see it too
:laugh:
Dusty
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Guys don't go anywhere I need to microwave another bag of popcorn. With spark plugs being introduced into the conversation it only a matter of time until this drifts into and good ole oil thread.
:popcorn:Carry on!
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If he’s convinced that it goes better and it doesn’t, he can be accused of being gullible or easily impressed..
Not a crime..
But if he says that it returns 4.2 l/100 k at 100+ kph and it doesn’t..?
He’s a liar.
I’m not prepared to pin that on the guy...
There is a third possibility, maybe it’s all true..?
Don’t eat all that popcorn in one sitting.. :clock:
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If he’s convinced that it goes better and it doesn’t, he can be accused of being gullible or easily impressed..
Not a crime..
But if he says that it returns 4.2 l/100 k at 100+ kph and it doesn’t..?
He’s a liar.
I’m not prepared to pin that on the guy...
There is a third possibility, maybe it’s all true..?
Don’t eat all that popcorn in one sitting.. :clock:
+1
Thought the same, had to put it in English/Australian mpg __but is impressive
BUT same consumption at 65 as 75 ?
Shouldn’t be
I understand that
ALTHOUGH ... Guzzi engines are designed to run at higher RPM than most people think they are. My Centauro used to get its best fuel mileage in 4th gear on the highway at 5000 RPM or more, and my Stelvio is happier in 5th gear on the highway than in 6th ... newbies seem to try to make a Guzzi "chug", and it's certainly not meant for that.
But I'll leave any further development to someone with a flow bench! :thumb:
Lannis
Takes the cake
No point in a gearbox for you, sure it’s not even better in first?
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Dusty, I might be wrong but isn't this a religious thread? :boozing:
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Dusty, I might be wrong but isn't this a religious thread? :boozing:
Yes mate, you’re right...(You’re wrong..)
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I'm getting 50-55 miles per us gallon at 65-75 mph and the bike runs lean not rich at all
That is about the same gas mileage that I was getting on my Norge when I used the same device on my Norge.
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That is about the same gas mileage that I was getting on my Norge when I used the same device on my Norge.
So I guess the burning question is..
What was the mpg before the buggerising around ?
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So I guess the burning question is..
What was the mpg before the buggerising around ?
Honestly, I don't remember but it certainly wasn't any better than that mileage and I don't remember how long I had that thing on there before it was yanked. Certainly not as many miles as you have on your Norge, but my 07 is in the 60,000 plus range. The bike is basically worthless in it's current state of mileage though it looks perfectly fine, but if I've done some serious damage by sporting that FatDuc then it will just get parted out.
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That is about the same gas mileage that I was getting on my Norge when I used the same device on my Norge.
Wow!! On my '07 Norge, with 75,068 miles I average 41.4 mpg. And, believe me, I have tried all the tricks of the trade/experts. Only once I got 50 mpg, and that was in southern Virginia, using non-ethanol premium. I think I've got to slow down :wink:
BTW, now it's back to stock, with a new map and Mistral can, and runs great!
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Interesting thread.... :drool:
Here's my take. After a glorious conversion to Moto Guzzi via a 2007 Griso, I bought a 2014 Norge with 800 miles for a steal. It was a 'sick' bike, and wouldn't rev over 6K rpm. Short end, the intake cam was off by 1 sprocket.
Took almost 1K miles to get it sorted, tried everything imaginable, new plug caps (and plugs), then coils, then wires, stock map refresh, TB sync, removed evap system, then Beetle map, active monitoring with guzzi diag. I was near MI at the time, and Micah and Jason (great Guzzi Techs) couldnt figure it out. To my good fortune, Pete had a Stelvio in his shop with a similar problem and ended up being a cam off one tooth. Took it to MI and confirmed that was the problem (thanks Pete!). Good to go.....
Once that was sorted, I found I was not thrilled with the overall responsiveness of the Norge engine as compared to the 4V Griso. Sure the over 6K surge and power were better, but other than that, the motor sounded and felt flat and less satisfying than the Griso.
I spent the next 2 years and 7K miles adapting, changing, tinkering before it was finally dialed in. I removed the Catalytic convertor and put on Ago Y pipe, took off snorkel, and did probably 4 adjustments to the Beetle Map (thanks Mark!) Finally, the bike was spot on perfect. I ended up putting the snorkel back on, motor sounded and responded better with it on.
TWO things I would NOT do or even consider in all the 'playing' was to put in a rock strainer for an air filter, or a plug to fool the 02 sensor. Why? after 40 years of wrenching and observing on cars and motorcycles, I've seen BOTH do damage to a motor. Significant upper valve train wear and carb clogging, cyl scoring over fueling, and several other things mentioned above. True, most of the damage from the gauze/oil air filters is from improper oiling, but over time, other than 'sounding cooler' the high flow filters alone are problematic (and expensive). *Not familiar with the sprint filter.
Now as for 50+ MPG on a Norge........... Well, I've seen that, going downhill....... Over 10K miles, best average I ever got was 44mpg during a very sedate day of 40-45mph riding on my tour to Nova Scotia. This was measured with GPS mileage and gallons calculated at the pump, not the odometer and computer, it always read high. My average MPG was always 38-41 otherwise, but I tend to get less MPG than others due to being harder on throttle. Heck, I rarely get more than 45mpg on my V7.
You are free to do with your bike as you please. This isn't an issue of 'purist ideology' it is wise experienced counsel. You don't have to heed, but your'e fooling yourself to ignore it.
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#1. This is an 07 Norge, not an 8 valve Norge which doesn’t get as good of gas mileage for obvious reasons. #2 My mileage was at a more sedate speed of 60-65mph and higher speeds did not see that kind of mileage but nothing in the 30’s range either at higher speeds. Also, I weigh 145 lbs on a good day.
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I appreciate all the reply's advice,tips and warnings of catastropic damage to my Guzzi I'm here to learn all I can about these bikes . I also like to get as many opinions as I can I don't believe everything I read or hear especially on CNN . There is a lot of propaganda out there everyone has a opinion or a agenda and sometimes it's hard to find the truth . I've been racing,riding and working on motocycles since 1972 and have owned more than 50 bikes mostly sportbikes . I just found out last week about the booster plug device some like it some don't the biggest complaint I heard was it make the bike run rich . I put new plugs in the Guzzi and went on a long test ride then did a plug check . The plugs show that it's running more lean than rich so I checked my V7III plugs for comparison they all looked more lean than rich .
(https://i.ibb.co/t3Nm5ZM/95715708-10219003836341599-7333757529521913856-n.jpg) (https://ibb.co/t3Nm5ZM)
Those plugs above are not necessarily lean. Notice the dark deposits on the screw shell. You need to look deep inside with an otoscope device to check the mixture. Modern fuels and ignition systems do not color plus like they did years
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Three pages of hounding a guy, can't you see it makes no diff. It's his bike, he can trash it if he wants. More work for someone like me!!
BUT, if you want reality, put a sniffer in the pipe & watch the percentage.
At some point this will turn into a RED TRIANGLE OF DEATH thread.
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Move over I wanna good seat to witness the spectacle about to unfold :popcorn:
LOL... Me too
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^You're a little late getting here :azn: . Peter
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I have used the Boosterplug on two bikes that I have owned. Neither of the bikes suffered any negative consequences for a lot of miles and continuing. If I could put a EJK fuel controller on the Eldorado 1400 then I would eliminate the Boosterplug and go with that as it is the most user friendly fuel module out there. But, unfortunately they don't make one for the 1400 or any of the Guzzi's except the 1200 sport. And besides, I'm in California which is under CARB rules. (That didn't stop me from purchasing 4 of them for different bikes through EBay). I know one thing, my 2016 Eldo runs great! As my dad used to say "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".
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what dusty said... the thing you're buying and plugging into your bike is just a 50c resistor!!!
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Pete explained to me in an E mail that the computer will in fact trim around the spoofer in a few miles , in other words , after a short period of time that 50 cent resister isn't doing anything . This is based on research done using computers and sniffers , not some seat of the pants testing method . Belief is a powerful thing , but in this case your butt dyno is just not accurate .
As for any claims of increased mileage , consider this . The spoofer is adding fuel , don't know about the laws of physics in your exact location , but in most areas adding fuel will NOT increase mileage , it will decrease it . Alchemy always loses to physics .
The funny thing is , a beetlemap is cheaper than a booster plug , and you receive actual real time help from a very knowledgeable expert , someone who doesn't make any crazy internet claims about a product making you sexier or smarter .
Dusty
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So...we've gone from the spoofer will cause over fueling, which will wash the cylinder walls to an eventual engine failure to now...
The ECU will in short order compensate for the spoofer and essentially neutralize the impact of said, afore mentioned spoofer.
That being the case, there shouldn't be any long term impacts...
Simple If....Then statement...it's either the first or the second...can't be both.
:thumb: :thumb:
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So...we've gone from the spoofer will cause over fueling, which will wash the cylinder walls to an eventual engine failure to now...
The ECU will in short order compensate for the spoofer and essentially neutralize the impact of said, afore mentioned spoofer.
That being the case, there shouldn't be any long term impacts...
Simple If....Then statement...it's either the first or the second...can't be both.
It’s not that simple if you contemplate the variables
:thumb: :thumb:
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So...we've gone from the spoofer will cause over fueling, which will wash the cylinder walls to an eventual engine failure to now...
The ECU will in short order compensate for the spoofer and essentially neutralize the impact of said, afore mentioned spoofer.
That being the case, there shouldn't be any long term impacts...
Simple If....Then statement...it's either the first or the second...can't be both.
:thumb: :thumb:
It depends on the age of the bike Paul , newer ones will trim around the spoofer , earlier models with less sophisticated ECU's won't . Sorry , this is coming from the guys who work with this stuff everyday .
Dusty
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Let me explain.
Disclaimer: I have no dog in this fight. If folks want to use booster plugs, fatducs, or any other black box gizmo that spoofs the ECU, modifies injector pulses, aligns your zygotes, attracts unicorns or repels weasels, go for it. I don't care.
The booster plug spoofs the ECU by modifying the signal from the intake air temperature sensor. Thus, the ECU reads the intake air temp as lower than actual. The map has an pressure-air-temperature correction table. It's a look-up table. The real-time injector pulse width is corrected by a factor determined by the air and (for CARC bikes) ambient pressure. Later models have MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensors, but they are outside the scope of this discussion. The booster plug directly affects the actual intake air temperature reading, therefore directly affecting the value read from the look-up table. When the intake air temperature is low, the mixture is enriched, when it's high, it's not as rich. Got it?
The ECU operates in two modes. Closed Loop and Open Loop. Closed Loop is when the lambda (O2) probe is actively affecting the real-time pulse width. Typically, Closed Loop is only active below 4000 RPM, and ONLY when the engine temperature is above 55°C, and ONLY when the intake air temperature is above a set value ~19°C. The ECU only trims the fuel in the Closed Loop area when the throttle is steady for a predetermined time, ie cruise. Above 4000 RPM, the ECU operates in Open Loop
Now, if the booster plug is set to spoof the temperature by, say -10°, then Closed Loop will not activate if the intake air temperature is read as 9°. The temperature look-up table will therefore cause a more enriched mixture. Therefore, in cooler ambient temperatures, the reported intake temperature may never get above 19°. Ergo, no Closed Loop. In warmer temperatures, or on a longer ride, the reported intake air temperature may go above 19°, thus activating Closed Loop. Don't forget, the engine heats up the airbox as well. Intake temperature is never the same as ambient temperature once the engine is warm. In this case, as I mentioned in my earlier post, the window in which Closed Loop is active is narrowed somewhat.
If you install a booster plug, the entire RPM range is enriched by the spoofed signal. For most later model Guzzi's, including all the CARC series, the mapping above 5000 RPM is stupid rich. This is where the danger of over-fuelling lurks. The booster plug just adds fuel to an already rich condition.
There is absolutely no way you can improve mileage with a booster plug. It's physics, Jim.
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Beetle. I think I posted you before about taking this spoofing crap too seriously. Dealing with ignorant, less knowledgeable people is usually fruitless unless they want to learn. Back in the '30s and after the 2nd World War there were a lot of adds for milage gizzmos and 100 MPG carburetors. They sold like hot cakes. P.T. Barnum, the circus guy, said there is a fool born every minute, I think its' more often. I've Known many highly educated people who had zero common sense, who subscribed to many of societies snake oil remedies. Beetle, back off, relax, and understand that the majority of humanity is ignorant and uneducatable. The saddest part of this discussion is that these creatures are allowed to vote.
Wow. Please read my post again. I don't care what people do to their bikes. A few posts up there was this:
So...we've gone from the spoofer will cause over fueling, which will wash the cylinder walls to an eventual engine failure to now...
The ECU will in short order compensate for the spoofer and essentially neutralize the impact of said, afore mentioned spoofer.
That being the case, there shouldn't be any long term impacts...
Simple If....Then statement...it's either the first or the second...can't be both.
I was trying to explain. I'm more than happy to piss off and never post another reasonable explanation again.
Thanks for reading.
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Let me explain.
Disclaimer: I have no dog in this fight. If folks want to use booster plugs, fatducs, or any other black box gizmo that spoofs the ECU, modifies injector pulses, aligns your zygotes, attracts unicorns or repels weasels, go for it. I don't care.
The booster plug spoofs the ECU by modifying the signal from the intake air temperature sensor. Thus, the ECU reads the intake air temp as lower than actual. The map has an pressure-air-temperature correction table. It's a look-up table. The real-time injector pulse width is corrected by a factor determined by the air and (for CARC bikes) ambient pressure. Later models have MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensors, but they are outside the scope of this discussion. The booster plug directly affects the actual intake air temperature reading, therefore directly affecting the value read from the look-up table. When the intake air temperature is low, the mixture is enriched, when it's high, it's not as rich. Got it?
The ECU operates in two modes. Closed Loop and Open Loop. Closed Loop is when the lambda (O2) probe is actively affecting the real-time pulse width. Typically, Closed Loop is only active below 4000 RPM, and ONLY when the engine temperature is above 55°C, and ONLY when the intake air temperature is above a set value ~19°C. The ECU only trims the fuel in the Closed Loop area when the throttle is steady for a predetermined time, ie cruise. Above 4000 RPM, the ECU operates in Open Loop
Now, if the booster plug is set to spoof the temperature by, say -10°, then Closed Loop will not activate if the intake air temperature is read as 9°. The temperature look-up table will therefore cause a more enriched mixture. Therefore, in cooler ambient temperatures, the reported intake temperature may never get above 19°. Ergo, no Closed Loop. In warmer temperatures, or on a longer ride, the reported intake air temperature may go above 19°, thus activating Closed Loop. Don't forget, the engine heats up the airbox as well. Intake temperature is never the same as ambient temperature once the engine is warm. In this case, as I mentioned in my earlier post, the window in which Closed Loop is active is narrowed somewhat.
If you install a booster plug, the entire RPM range is enriched by the spoofed signal. For most later model Guzzi's, including all the CARC series, the mapping above 5000 RPM is stupid rich. This is where the danger of over-fuelling lurks. The booster plug just adds fuel to an already rich condition.
There is absolutely no way you can improve mileage with a booster plug. It's physics, Jim.
Sir, I lift my steaming mug of the black water of life to you................ .
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Beetle, I hope I didn't piss you off. Your posts are the most educational and entertaining on this site. Keep 'em coming. Horst.
Well...
Equal best.
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Beetle. I think I posted you before about taking this spoofing crap too seriously. Dealing with ignorant, less knowledgeable people is usually fruitless unless they want to learn. Back in the '30s and after the 2nd World War there were a lot of adds for milage gizzmos and 100 MPG carburetors. They sold like hot cakes. P.T. Barnum, the circus guy, said there is a fool born every minute, I think its' more often. I've Known many highly educated people who had zero common sense, who subscribed to many of societies snake oil remedies.
So you mean the booster plug, magnets on my fuel lines, E3 special spark plugs and open topped air filter arent going to work? Man..... I'm bummed............ :evil:
Totally unrelated, I had a buddy in High school that had a 1978 AMC Pacer that had a strange looking carb on a straight 6, got no kidding 50PMG.... He bought it from a buddy who's dad worked for AMC and had it from new. Rumor had it he finagled to get a hold of a test car with an 'experimental' carburetor design. Was great fun.
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Let me explain.
Disclaimer: I have no dog in this fight. If folks want to use booster plugs, fatducs, or any other black box gizmo that spoofs the ECU, modifies injector pulses, aligns your zygotes, attracts unicorns or repels weasels, go for it. I don't care.
The booster plug spoofs the ECU by modifying the signal from the intake air temperature sensor. Thus, the ECU reads the intake air temp as lower than actual. The map has an pressure-air-temperature correction table. It's a look-up table. The real-time injector pulse width is corrected by a factor determined by the air and (for CARC bikes) ambient pressure. Later models have MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensors, but they are outside the scope of this discussion. The booster plug directly affects the actual intake air temperature reading, therefore directly affecting the value read from the look-up table. When the intake air temperature is low, the mixture is enriched, when it's high, it's not as rich. Got it?
The ECU operates in two modes. Closed Loop and Open Loop. Closed Loop is when the lambda (O2) probe is actively affecting the real-time pulse width. Typically, Closed Loop is only active below 4000 RPM, and ONLY when the engine temperature is above 55°C, and ONLY when the intake air temperature is above a set value ~19°C. The ECU only trims the fuel in the Closed Loop area when the throttle is steady for a predetermined time, ie cruise. Above 4000 RPM, the ECU operates in Open Loop
Now, if the booster plug is set to spoof the temperature by, say -10°, then Closed Loop will not activate if the intake air temperature is read as 9°. The temperature look-up table will therefore cause a more enriched mixture. Therefore, in cooler ambient temperatures, the reported intake temperature may never get above 19°. Ergo, no Closed Loop. In warmer temperatures, or on a longer ride, the reported intake air temperature may go above 19°, thus activating Closed Loop. Don't forget, the engine heats up the airbox as well. Intake temperature is never the same as ambient temperature once the engine is warm. In this case, as I mentioned in my earlier post, the window in which Closed Loop is active is narrowed somewhat.
If you install a booster plug, the entire RPM range is enriched by the spoofed signal. For most later model Guzzi's, including all the CARC series, the mapping above 5000 RPM is stupid rich. This is where the danger of over-fuelling lurks. The booster plug just adds fuel to an already rich condition.
There is absolutely no way you can improve mileage with a booster plug. It's physics, Jim.
Thank you, Sir!!! :bow: :thumb:
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My .02c.
Make no mistake the booster device wasn't for mileage improvement , it was to slightly fatten the fuel/air ratio for smoother running.
When the BMW oil head came out there was wide spread complaints that the engine had a low throttle setting "surge" and this (and other) devices was aimed at a quick fix for the perceived "surge" problem.
I helped install a couple of the devices and they had a remote air temp probe that was mounted somewhere in the free air areas of the machines (1100cc bikes). Most installers agreed that it cured the "surge" problem on the 1100 by making it a bit fatter. Mileage was not a factor. Never heard of any mechanical,(cylinder washing?),problems even w/high mileage use. If it was so fat to make that happen I wonder if the engine would even run correctly.
BMW apparently "solved" the problem? on the 1150 machines by adding a two spark plug head.
I run my CX a bit "fat" w/ mechanical carbs 'cause I like to run an air cooled engine a bit fat across the board.
One fellow I helped w/install of the "fat device" told me that even if a new map was available he would be paranoid about trying to down load a program to his stock ECU.
The "fat device" is simple, cheap and easy to install, about I hour for my first and much less for the second. (also to remove if not satisfied).
We need to remember that "snake oil" for one person is "medicine" for another. I've been a user of various snake oil(s) in my lifetime including the frightful "marvel mystery oil" in my gas and oil...oh the humanity.
:-)
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Hi friends
I was reading this thread and I search a little bit only from curiosity because I am
convinced that for our bikes, the beetle map is the way to go, I have already installed on my V7 II and I am super happy.
Anyway I found the following link with some interesting technical information.
https://www.monocilindro.com/2018/12/27/make-your-own-booster-plug-for-your-ducati/ (https://www.monocilindro.com/2018/12/27/make-your-own-booster-plug-for-your-ducati/)
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Great to hear from Beetle and a more thorough explanation , I appreciate that he didn't add hearsay .
Makes my mechanics' heart happy :bow: . Peter
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OP wished for the experience of someone who had tried one and removed it. That's me.
Back in the Dark Ages there were few choices on how to improve the fueling of a CARC. I installed a fatduc.
I'll give y'all a moment to roll your eyes.
Ok. So then what happened? Well you have to adjust it! The adjustments ranged from "Runs like Shite" to "What's that Red Triangle?" matched up with varying degrees of increased fuel consumption. Did I mention that it didn't really run better? It didn't.
Now the good part! P. T. Barnum was right! I sold it!
Along came beetle and molly with maps to cure our fueling woes using science and, being a sucker for science and things that can be proven rather than just believed, I installed a map corrected for my Norge.
Night and Day difference.
Night and Day.
I'm not judgin' and you can farkle and tweak to your hearts content.
But you've been warned by the experts. Rock strainers and spoofers are engine wreckers.
And that is the science.
Hunter
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A bit more.
The FatDuc is an O2 or lambda signal manipulator. It spoofs the O2 probe signal, emulating a lean condition. The booster plug spoofs the intake air temperature signal, emulating cold air. Thus, the basis on which they operate is different, and they cannot be directly compared.
IMNSHO, the FatDuc has the potential to do most harm.
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IMNSHO, the FatDuc has the potential to do most harm.
Why ?
This one just acts in the closed loop, no ?
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Why ?
This one just acts in the closed loop, no ?
Yes, only in closed loop. Let me explain. The FatDuc spoofs the Lambda signal. In closed loop, the ECU trims the fuel to between 14.5 & 15.1 AFR. If the spoofer is set to a point where the signal is indicating >15.1 all the time, the ECU will add fuel (up to the set limit). That may result in actual AFR's in the low 12's (worse case scenario). This is bad. There will be no warning or error from the ECU.
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If there were O2 sensors calibrated to 13A/F, it would be ideal, right?
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13.2 for the 2V engine.
13.0 for the 8V.
It can be done with a wideband sensor. I did it when I was running a 1200. It's a lot of stuffing about, however.
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13.2 for the 2V engine.
13.0 for the 8V.
It can be done with a wideband sensor. I did it when I was running a 1200. It's a lot of stuffing about, however.
Have always been a minimalist , show me the simplest way to effect a direct fix that doesn't require additional hardware and we're good. Some years ago an acquaintance installed some aftermarket gizmo on his K1200 LT BMW that failed out on the road several hundred miles from home . A BMW shop in Denver worked on it for a couple of hours removing said aftermarket device and he rode it home . Then the genius ordered the same aftermarket gizmo and him and his genius friend installed it again , with the same result . He cussed BMW , cussed the sky , cussed his kids , yelled at everyone but the right person , which was of course him .
Dusty