Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: kfz on October 11, 2023, 02:15:21 PM
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Help, I keep inspecting and re-assembling my Mille GT clutch but it just drags like mad. Bad enough to stop selection of gear. Ive inspected all the components but can find nothing wrong. It feels all wrong at the lever and doesnt have a progressive pull like you would expect. Its very heavy and does not have a progressively harder feel feel you would expect as springs compress. its also doesnt make the distinctive ring - a -ding when its pulled in its not disengaging!!
Really at a loss with this. The clutch was disassembled because of the dragging, Where i replaced the frictions, Pushrod and springs. Ive done loads of clutches and they just work. But this one is driving me mad.
- New springs, Frictions (in fact 2 set of frictions), thrust bearing, pushrod
- Intermediate plate is not warped and shows dead flat on a straight edge
- Pushrod measures 245mm. springs measure 29-30mm
- Springs defnetly located correctly. Dimple positioned right see pic
- Plate shoulders to rear
- clutch centre tool used
- Cup located
- I did the main seal at the same time so removed the flywheel, not sure if this relevent?
- The ring gear shows slighly uneven wear, slight burnishing (may the drag) to the outer edge, see pic
- Intermediatte plate is not warped and shows dead flat on a straight edge
(https://i.ibb.co/CMNZ6Lg/p1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CMNZ6Lg)
(https://i.ibb.co/BqgFzwB/P2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BqgFzwB)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZKTxLm0/p3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZKTxLm0)
(https://i.ibb.co/TLLf4JW/p5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TLLf4JW)
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The intermediatte plate looks dead flat to me. Ive seen warped ones and this isnt it.....
(https://i.ibb.co/TcnFx7R/p7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TcnFx7R)
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Make sure the cup that rod fit's in is not too deep of a hole. A friend of mine just had one of these keep wearing down. Get measurement of new and compare.
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Not wanting to be an A$$, but have you checked the cable (freeness and routing), bar lever, the actuating lever pivot points?
You probably have checked but you didn't say
Also, I had a problem with an aftermarket lever not doing what it should do so might be worth a check if that applies
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What friction plates have you used? If SD-TEC, they are a bit thicker than the original and will require some extra length be added to the throw-out assembly to disengage correctly.
Is the outer body of the throw-out assembly flush or nearly so with the rear cover of the transmission? If it's recessed into the cover more than a millimeter, there can be clutch issues.
When it's recessed too far, I add an extra thrust washer from an old throw-out bearing, sometimes two if necessary.
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Make sure the cup that rod fit's in is not too deep of a hole. A friend of mine just had one of these keep wearing down. Get measurement of new and compare.
Good call, i'll check that, sure i have spare somewhere.....
Kev
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Not wanting to be an A$$, but have you checked the cable (freeness and routing), bar lever, the actuating lever pivot points?
You probably have checked but you didn't say
Also, I had a problem with an aftermarket lever not doing what it should do so might be worth a check if that applies
Nah, its not that. Ive tried all kinds on adjustments a all points, Tried a new cable. To get the clutch remotely disengage i've no free play , something is very wrong.
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What friction plates have you used? If SD-TEC, they are a bit thicker than the original and will require some extra length be added to the throw-out assembly to disengage correctly.
Is the outer body of the throw-out assembly flush or nearly so with the rear cover of the transmission? If it's recessed into the cover more than a millimeter, there can be clutch issues.
When it's recessed too far, I add an extra thrust washer from an old throw-out bearing, sometimes two if necessary.
Sureflex. But tried another set as well and they are exctly the same.
The plunger was well recessed so i popped a 3mm Ball in there. it brought the plunger back up fluch with the case but the clutch was actually worse.
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How do the spline grooves in the flywheel look ? Are they notched at all?
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Nah, its not that. Ive tried all kinds on adjustments a all points, Tried a new cable. To get the clutch remotely disengage I've no free play , something is very wrong.
I thought as much
No one with any sense gets that far into an engine without a good degree of tackling the basics first ..... though I have seen it on threads!
Good luck though and I shall watch this thread with interest.
You never know, I might end up in the same predicament somewhere down the line
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I'd only use Sureflex plates if they were the only ones available. Tried them once and within 10k miles they had notched the hub. Were always grabby with on/off engagement. SD-TEC plates are far better.
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I'd only use Sureflex plates if they were the only ones available. Tried them once and within 10k miles they had notched the hub. Were always grabby with on/off engagement. SD-TEC plates are far better.
Same here. The Sureflex were very grabby.
The SD-TEC work great, but I suspect the machining of the grooves left the surface uneven, so they drag a bit. From then on, I sanded the surface a bit to even them up and no more issues.
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I agree as well regarding the sureflex plates. They are very grabby, and even though new, I replaced them right away with sd tech. on my 73 eldorado.
Rick D.
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"Plate shoulders to rear"
You mean the friction plates, and to the rear means the rear of the bike? Not facing in toward the flywheel correct?
Another thought, is you trans clutch lever bottoming out on the trans case when you pull the hand lever?
Tom
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From a diagnostic standpoint, it would seem that whatever you were trying to correct in the first place still exists. Look to the pieces you did not change- pushrod, etc. as stated some part may be worn and length is an issue. When did the first problem begin? Was a new transmission housing installed? New input spline, mismanufactured? Flywheel on backwards? If you remove everything you've put new, you're left with what's the problem...somewhere .
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"Plate shoulders to rear"
You mean the friction plates, and to the rear means the rear of the bike? Not facing in toward the flywheel correct?
Another thought, is you trans clutch lever bottoming out on the trans case when you pull the hand lever?
Tom
Nope , i dont think so.... But its disembled now.
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How do the spline grooves in the flywheel look ? Are they notched at all?
like new. and clean.
clutch hub is perfect as well
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Just to be clear. The friction plates have a raised area where the spline is rivet to in the center on one side and the other side if flat.
That raised side should face out while installing the friction plates. When the clutch assy is together, you will see the raised center.
If you install them with the raised in toward the engine, IIRR it can make it so the clutch will not open when you pull the hand lever.
Added a pic. The one on the left is how it would look with the clutch assembled.
(https://i.ibb.co/5j35N8X/0617181749.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5j35N8X)
Tom
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Do you have a visible actuating arm that compresses the pushrod ?
If so, what happens if you mechanically depress that arm fully ?
If doing that frees the clutch, then the components upstream are not providing the required travel..
If it does not free the clutch, the it’s nothing upstream of the actuating arm.
Can you be convinced that the plate is not twisting on the splines and therefore still dragging on one part of the perimeter ?
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Do you have a visible actuating arm that compresses the pushrod ?
If so, what happens if you mechanically depress that arm fully ?
If doing that frees the clutch, then the components upstream are not providing the required travel..
If it does not free the clutch, the it’s nothing upstream of the actuating arm.
Can you be convinced that the plate is not twisting on the splines and therefore still dragging on one part of the perimeter ?
Hi Tom, Yes. This was my second tjough after the warped intermediate, but no the plates are fitted correctly pointing aft (rearward).
Kev
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Do you have a visible actuating arm that compresses the pushrod ?
If so, what happens if you mechanically depress that arm fully ?
If doing that frees the clutch, then the components upstream are not providing the required travel..
If it does not free the clutch, the it’s nothing upstream of the actuating arm.
Can you be convinced that the plate is not twisting on the splines and therefore still dragging on one part of the perimeter ?
Yes.
The Clutch still drags
The fraiction plates are new. Ive tried another new set i had in stock. The plates are good fit (Deep splined hub).
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Yes.
The Clutch still drags
The fraiction plates are new. Ive tried another new set i had in stock. The plates are good fit (Deep splined hub).
Ok so now you know that any investigation into levers, cables etc…Is a time wasting exercise for you.
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Ok so now you know that any investigation into levers, cables etc…Is a time wasting exercise for you.
Huzo,
yep, i sorta knew that, hence stripping the bike down and pulling out the clutch in the vain hope I coild find something amiss.
My suspicions lie with the pushrod and cup at the moment.
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Huzo,
yep, i sorta knew that, hence stripping the bike down and pulling out the clutch in the vain hope I coild find something amiss.
My suspicions lie with the pushrod and cup at the moment.
If the pushrod is the correct length, then it isn't that. The hole in the center of the "cup"/thrust piece should be around 6.5 mm deep. It would have to be much deeper to cause the issues you're having.
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I would suspect the splines of your clutch plates, although they may be near new, are not "splinning" well in their marriage to the center hub of the transmission.
A burr on a part or some slight variations in machining is all it would take to cause a bind. A little work with a die grinder or needle file may be all it would take.
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I would suspect the splines of your clutch plates, although they may be near new, are not "splinning" well in their marriage to the center hub of the transmission.
A burr on a part or some slight variations in machining is all it would take to cause a bind. A little work with a die grinder or needle file may be all it would take.
Happy to look into any thing. I'll check it out.
KEv
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never been into one yet.. but these kind of issues are fun for me to think through.
so the following is probably crap, but I'm wondering if it is possible that the entire clutch / flywheel may not be in the correct position.
not fully seated or missing shim ???
I'm also wondering if you have measured over the friction material of the old clutch vs. the new clutch.
if the variation is large, it may point to an incorrect friction thickness on the new part...
OK... Ill shut up now
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Really surprising that no one else has said it but here goes.
As with any multiplate clutch, the only part that truly ensures clutch disengages drive is the pressure plate. It must travel freely and squarely a few thou and plates will spin.
Even though I hate Surflex plates , they only change friction point when hot imhe, from cold they’re as expected.
So , if pressure plate teeth/flywheel internal teeth are not the issue we are only left with 8 springs, each must give same pressure for plate to travel squarely when pushed from centre.
Assemble clutch with engine nose down (in car tyre), making sure all springs are perfect and correctly located into recesses BEFORE fitting centering tool. When assembled and tool removed fit gearbox while still nose down, in gear so output shaft does not turn.
Adjust pushrod and then press lightly on clutch operating arm, minimal pressure will allow output shaft to spin (clutch releases ).
Assemble in bike , run and enjoy
I have found springs wonky and distorted from being assembled with engine upright, even though dots are lined up, one spring can fall out of recess causing issue. That spring is now u/s —it will not bend back
If in any doubt whatsoever, buy 8 new springs
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Do you mean the clutch doesn’t release when you pull the lever? If that’s what you’re saying, what I do is space the lever farther from the handle bar to give it more throw. Works especially well on ram clutches so it will release as well as have freeplay. I have made my own spacers but someone here posted a link for them so I’ll post that if I find it.
Found it! https://www.righteousstuntmetal.com/products/rsc-perch-spacer
I initially made one trying to get a Ram clutch to release while giving it free play. I liked it well enough that I use it on a regular clutch. I went to an adjustable lever for more fine tuning. It may help.
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I'm sure you have double checked that you got the conical push rod seals out before installing new ones or the O ring setup.
Tom
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I'm sure you have double checked that you got the conical push rod seals out before installing new ones or the O ring setup.
Tom
Yes i did, but for the first time i went for the o rings as per Dave Richardson. But how can this cause such terrible lack of disengagement. I cant seehow, but its the only thing i dont normally do.
Kev
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Do you mean the clutch doesn’t release when you pull the lever? If that’s what you’re saying, what I do is space the lever farther from the handle bar to give it more throw. Works especially well on ram clutches so it will release as well as have freeplay. I have made my own spacers but someone here posted a link for them so I’ll post that if I find it.
Found it! https://www.righteousstuntmetal.com/products/rsc-perch-spacer
I initially made one trying to get a Ram clutch to release while giving it free play. I liked it well enough that I use it on a regular clutch. I went to an adjustable lever for more fine tuning. It may help.
ive adjusted it way past the any sort of free play and it still doesnt disengage. I douby adding travel will make any difference. Plus its not getting to the causes, They dont do this something is wrong.
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Checked cup against a pristine one. Not worn. its not the Cup.
running out of ideas here.....
(https://i.ibb.co/kHN4PgQ/cup.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kHN4PgQ)
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As mentioned, I would focus on springs and splines if you think other parts and dimensions are all in spec.
The spring pressure has to be even to maintain balance for proper actuation. If a weak spring allows racking, plates may bind on splines. If the springs compress too much as a group when you pull the lever (comparable to effect of cable stretching because of 1-2 unseen broken wires), you might as well not be pulling the lever. The splines simply need to be smooth enough to facilitate movement between parts while engaged. It doesn’t take much imperfection to impair that movement.
What the history of this problem- how did it develop? Did clutch work properly in the past? What about onset of this clutch problem- slow, fast, ? It didn’t begin at time of changing rear engine seal. Just curious.
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As mentioned, I would focus on springs and splines if you think other parts and dimensions are all in spec.
The spring pressure has to be even to maintain balance for proper actuation. If a weak spring allows racking, plates may bind on splines. If the springs compress too much as a group when you pull the lever (comparable to effect of cable stretching because of 1-2 unseen broken wires), you might as well not be pulling the lever. The splines simply need to be smooth enough to facilitate movement between parts while engaged. It doesn’t take much imperfection to impair that movement.
What the history of this problem- how did it develop? Did clutch work properly in the past? What about onset of this clutch problem- slow, fast, ? It didn’t begin at time of changing rear engine seal. Just curious.
Springs are brand new. I'll check them all again (ive checked them once) , but I think they are fine. I can put the old ones back in.
Splines are 100%. I will post pictures.
The clutch started dragging, Over time i took up adjustment until non was left. I put in new mainseal, new clutch plates ,springs and pushrod. repeat this step twice with differnet combination of plates. clutch drags worse than ever. No adjustment works.
Kev
Kev
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You mentioned you went with the O rings for the push rod. You did read the instructions on how to install them right?
With the above said.
You say that the bike was fine, then it started to get the clutch drag problem. You adjusted all the slack out of the cable and it would still drag.
I don't see how this could be missed, but the clutch lever on the back of the trans is not frozen is it?
Tom
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The lever is the determining factor on how far the push rod goes in. Have you changed the lever or is the bushing worn or lever bent in on the lever and not allowing the cable to pull the correct distance?
I have an adjustable clutch lever. If I adjust the lever to be closer to the grip, The clutch will not fully disengage. If I adjust the cable to allow the clutch to fully disengage, the clutch slips. I cannot use the setting on the lever that places closest to the grip.
Adjust the three points until the clutch slips under power and them back the adjustment back in.
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The lever is the determining factor on how far the push rod goes in. Have you changed the lever or is the bushing worn or lever bent in on the lever and not allowing the cable to pull the correct distance?
I have an adjustable clutch lever. If I adjust the lever to be closer to the grip, The clutch will not fully disengage. If I adjust the cable to allow the clutch to fully disengage, the clutch slips. I cannot use the setting on the lever that places closest to the grip.
Adjust the three points until the clutch slips under power and them back the adjustment back in.
No adjustment of the clutch will cause it to slip. Even winding it it on all three adjusters and then pulling the lever it doesnt slip.
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I think this is the last query response. No noticable wars on Flywheel, pressure plate, Intermediate plate or hub
(https://i.ibb.co/TRDxr3H/s1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TRDxr3H)
(https://i.ibb.co/kSQnw2W/S2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kSQnw2W)
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I'll offer a reward for the guzzisti that gets it right and solves this....
Free of charge I'll lend to the bike to anyone for the first 2 weeks of June (TT week) or August if you prefer (classic TT).
I'll meet you at Manchester airport (40 mins from the boat). Bring your lid and your gear.
Kev
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Some random thoughts
1) Is the pivot point on the lever or the point it pivots about on the casing worn
2) Is the lever on the box bent
3) Is the lever hitting anything and preventing full movement
4) Is the pocket where the push rod fits worn
Good luck, a tricky problem
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Some random thoughts
1) Is the pivot point on the lever or the point it pivots about on the casing worn
2) Is the lever on the box bent
3) Is the lever hitting anything and preventing full movement
4) Is the pocket where the push rod fits worn
Good luck, a tricky problem
Het Tris,
1. Nope its fine. Even the pin isnt seized.
2. I dont think so, Travle is normal at the bars, But i can easily check it against another.
3. I dont think so, but bike is apart now.
4. In the lever, Good point I'll check.
Ta
Kev
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Is the pushrod perfectly straight? Sometimes it doesn’t want to go in its pocket and can be bent just enough so it flexes and will not compress the springs quite enough.
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Maybe we should start over with what happened when the issue came about.
The clutch had been working fine. Then one day the clutch started dragging. You adjusted the slack out of the cable. Did the cable get excessive slack at the hand lever? Or was it still as you normally adjust it?
I believe you also tried the other adjustments for the cable. I would think you took out ALL of the slack and it was still dragging.
Has the hand lever always had the same amount of travel, as in you could always pull the lever to the hand grip? Or is it stopping short of the hand grip?
I would think of two things that would cause clutch drag if the hand lever still has the same range of travel. The throw out bearing has gone bad causing excessive free play in the cable, but you would notice that. Or a warped intermediate plate. But you showed us that and it does look flat.
Another thing that could be the issue is that the trans lever is hitting the trans when you pull the hand lever, or hitting the end of the cable. Though the hitting the cable is not likely.
I think at this point I would install the clutch assembly. MAKING SURE that the dimple on the pressure plate lines up with the arrow on the flywheel.
Mount the trans to the engine with it's fasteners. Make sure the throw out bearing is good. Make sure the clutch push rod is seating into the hole in the cup (if the end plunger/outer body is sitting well out, like 5 or so mm, your not in the cup). Note where the plunger/outer body is in relation to it's hole, should be just about level. Hook up the clutch cable and work the hand lever to make sure it is not hitting the trans cover.
Provided all is well so far. I would try putting the trans in gear, confirm it's in gear. Taking a vice grips or the like, protect the output shaft of the trans with something and clamp the vice grips to it to use as a handle. Pull clutch hand lever and see if you can turn the output shaft WITHOUT the engine turning. Adjust cable as needed to allow the shaft to turn. You may need to go tighter than you would normally adjust the cable at to get the shaft to turn by hand.
If the shaft turns, sounds like your ready to assemble the bike. If not.....
Could your crank shaft be moving forward and back throwing off your cable adjustment like the V7II crank issue? I can not think of anything in the trans that would cause the clutch to drag.
One last and not very likely thing. If the splined input hub is not fully seated into the trans, it would be hitting the pressure plate. But if it was, you would more likely get the clutch to not fully engage.
Hope this helps a bit,
Yom
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I should have already brought this up. If your clutch cable is stretching when you pull the hand lever, that could cause clutch drag. But if you have made adjustments to remove all the slack, the cable would just keep stretching no matter how many times you adjust it until it fails.
That's about all I got,
Tom
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I should have already brought this up. If your clutch cable is stretching when you pull the hand lever, that could cause clutch drag. But if you have made adjustments to remove all the slack, the cable would just keep stretching no matter how many times you adjust it until it fails.
That's about all I got,
Tom
Wasn't there a batch of crappy clutch cables a couple years ago that did just that? The outer sheath stretched and compressed? Or am I making stuff up...again?
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Before assembling the clutch ensure that all of the plates fit and slide freely in the flywheel splines, stack the plates in the flywheel and ensure that the clutch hub also slides freely through the plates centers before proceeding. I have had a brand new plate miss machined and bind in the assembly. If assembling the clutch with motor still in crabbed frame make sure to tighten the end of each spring coil slightly with a pair of pliers so they lock onto the short raised nubs on the keeper plate. Once assembled and bolted up to the trans always check the operation before going any further. I have found a welders vise clamp fits the end of the clutch arm nicely and can be opened up to clamp to a convenient spot to then clamped to hold the arm in. Then, using the drive shaft with some vise grips ,check that the clutch is indeed releasing before further assembly.
(https://i.ibb.co/WcbH4x3/IMG-0250.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WcbH4x3)
(https://i.ibb.co/BqX6VFG/IMG-0156.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BqX6VFG)
(https://i.ibb.co/4jF2c3x/IMG-0157.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4jF2c3x)
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TLDR; Is this possibly one of those times that with different plate thicknesses & pushrod lengths you need to put a ball bearing in to get it to work? fwiw idk
Apologies if it was already mentioned or discussed
:popcorn:
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TLDR; Is this possibly one of those times that with different plate thicknesses & pushrod lengths you need to put a ball bearing in to get it to work? fwiw idk
Apologies if it was already mentioned or discussed
:popcorn:
np. Tried it, made it worse.
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Before assembling the clutch ensure that all of the plates fit and slide freely in the flywheel splines, stack the plates in the flywheel and ensure that the clutch hub also slides freely through the plates centers before proceeding. I have had a brand new plate miss machined and bind in the assembly. If assembling the clutch with motor still in crabbed frame make sure to tighten the end of each spring coil slightly with a pair of pliers so they lock onto the short raised nubs on the keeper plate. Once assembled and bolted up to the trans always check the operation before going any further. I have found a welders vise clamp fits the end of the clutch arm nicely and can be opened up to clamp to a convenient spot to then clamped to hold the arm in. Then, using the drive shaft with some vise grips ,check that the clutch is indeed releasing before further assembly.
(https://i.ibb.co/WcbH4x3/IMG-0250.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WcbH4x3)
(https://i.ibb.co/BqX6VFG/IMG-0156.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BqX6VFG)
(https://i.ibb.co/4jF2c3x/IMG-0157.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4jF2c3x)
Lucia,
Yes this is the plan , i need to carefully reassemble it one step at a time, checking everything.
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I should have already brought this up. If your clutch cable is stretching when you pull the hand lever, that could cause clutch drag. But if you have made adjustments to remove all the slack, the cable would just keep stretching no matter how many times you adjust it until it fails.
That's about all I got,
Tom
Wasn't there a batch of crappy clutch cables a couple years ago that did just that? The outer sheath stretched and compressed? Or am I making stuff up...again?
This is why I mentioned possible cable issues in my suggestions. 4 shoe brakes are extremely sensitive to imbalance caused by cable stretch/sheath compression. Even one broken wire in one cable can seriously impair the function of the entire brake.
Sounds like the clutch cable was replaced in this situation, so may not be the problem here.
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This is why I mentioned possible cable issues in my suggestions. 4 shoe brakes are extremely sensitive to imbalance caused by cable stretch/sheath compression. Even one broken wire in one cable can seriously impair the function of the entire brake.
Sounds like the clutch cable was replaced in this situation, so may not be the problem here.
Tried multiple cables including a new one. Exactly the same. Still feels horrible.
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Back to the OP- you replaced the rear main seal. Why? How many miles are on the engine? Investigate the crankshaft end play; on old automotive stuff, some engines tend to idle with the crank to the rear of the thrust bearing which means you have to push them to the front to disengage the clutch which can take up a significant amount of pedal travel if it's severely worn. Grasping at straws here.
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Could your crank shaft be moving forward and back throwing off your cable adjustment like the V7II crank issue? I can not think of anything in the trans that would cause the clutch to drag.
Worn Thrust Washer on Crankshaft.
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Lucia,
Yes this is the plan , i need to carefully reassemble it one step at a time, checking everything.
Now that sir is an excellent decision, not before time
I think you’ll find the answer is in this thread, I’ll stick by my original thought in my last post #27
Springs are either misplaced or deformed (perhaps by someone trying to make them stay in vertical pressure plate,?)
Of course, the end float answer above is possible too, crankshaft could even be broken, I’ve seen it, bike still ran too, clutch was a bit howsyerfather in that one. Otherwise it’s pretty simple stuff
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It did occur to me that given that its not a brand new bike, there might be wear in multiple places that added together result in the issue you're experiencing
Which means that from an assembly position there's nothing for you to identify easily
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It did occur to me that given that its not a brand new bike, there might be wear in multiple places that added together result in the issue you're experiencing
Which means that from an assembly position there's nothing for you to identify easily
Its on the to do list, Try and make some progress soon as i can. I think i posted a pic of the Pressure plate as it was ast disembled and its looks corretly positoned. its certinaly no unvenly postioned. I'll dig it out below....
(https://i.ibb.co/xhVBBx7/p5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xhVBBx7)
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check the runout on the crankshaft by gently prying it back and forth. I dumped all my Guzzi manuals when I sold my last Lario so I am not sure what the spec is, but surely not more than a few thousanths...
You've checked everything else, if you can pry the flywheel back and forth and you can see it move and hear it go "thunk" then you've likely found your problem.
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C ould be the nut loose on crank timing gear.pull timing cover, easy to elemate that, it wouldgive crank the end play that may be the prablem. Hope it is that simple.
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Sureflex. But tried another set as well and they are exctly the same.
The plunger was well recessed so i popped a 3mm Ball in there. it brought the plunger back up fluch with the case but the clutch was actually worse.
That's your problem!
I've had exactly this issue on an Sport 1100 I bought. Previous owner couldn't get the clutch to work so put a 3mm ball in there.
He did about 30kms like thar before I bought it and it jammed in gear on my first ride.
Take the 3mm ball out. The issue will be clutch adjustment with the sureflex plates.
The sureflex plates are crap, they expand as they warm so you need to adjust it slightly tight when cold. As it warms up the adjustment improves.
Do not be tempted to adjust when hot, then when cold it's way to tight and drags.
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That's your problem!
I've had exactly this issue on an Sport 1100 I bought. Previous owner couldn't get the clutch to work so put a 3mm ball in there.
He did about 30kms like thar before I bought it and it jammed in gear on my first ride.
Take the 3mm ball out. The issue will be clutch adjustment with the sureflex plates.
The sureflex plates are crap, they expand as they warm so you need to adjust it slightly tight when cold. As it warms up the adjustment improves.
Do not be tempted to adjust when hot, then when cold it's way to tight and drags.
No its not. I tried and tried to adjust it out, believe me. Wound the clutch on full to get it to disenengage. Its not that, something wrong, it doesnt even feel right.
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C ould be the nut loose on crank timing gear.pull timing cover, easy to elemate that, it wouldgive crank the end play that may be the prablem. Hope it is that simple.
There is some discenrable movement. Hear it more then see it.
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No its not. I tried and tried to adjust it out, believe me. Wound the clutch on full to get it to disenengage. Its not that, something wrong, it doesnt even feel right.
Yep, that's exactly what I had.
Need to slacken the cable at handle, where it bolts to gear box and set it at clutch, adjust so its just touching. The gearbox then handle.
Thats how you get the Surflex plates to work
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The ring gear fits on back to front
Creates this scenario apparently, I read it on here, spose it’s just extra preload on springs?
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Still refused to be solved this issue. Ive pretty much had enough now.
The problem must be with the actuation or the disengagement. I can mock up the disenagement by using the centre tool and compress the pressure pate and test for free play.
I can see that i have a problem with consistent free play. One side of the flywheel has approx 1-1.5mm of free play in the plates (this sounds a but right to me judging by the percieved movment of the arm/rod) but the other side shows Zero Free play. I.e. even when the plate is fully compressed I have NO free play on the frictions.
The problem is the pressure plate is not compressing evenly. As you can see in the pictures below the plate has about 1.5mm of run out (18.85mm vs 20.24) measure from the ring gear flange on the flywheel.
(https://i.ibb.co/LZgr23w/po1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LZgr23w)
(https://i.ibb.co/smMJFd4/po2-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/smMJFd4)
Ok, ive followed this through, First suspect the springs are not loating. Ive tried 2 sets of springs (old and new), ive also tested the springs that they locate in the pressure plate ans flywheel. Ive even tried glueing the spring into thr flywheel so i know 100% that they are located and straight! No difference.
What also happing is that the surflex plates at 8.4mm thickness and not 8.00mm as per psec, this is losing my nearly a 1mm of free play. The combination of the plates and runout if meaning i am not getting free play in the clutch!!!!
QUESTIONS.
1. Why do i have 1.5mm of runnout the pressure plates and does this actually matter is it normal.
2. do the oversize plates matter?
Kev
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Bingo...the plate thickness. there is a slightly longer pushrod available that goes with the RAM single plate clutch.That might well cure your problem.
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Still refused to be solved this issue. Ive pretty much had enough now.
The problem must be with the actuation or the disengagement. I can mock up the disenagement by using the centre tool and compress the pressure pate and test for free play.
I can see that i have a problem with consistent free play. One side of the flywheel has approx 1-1.5mm of free play in the plates (this sounds a but right to me judging by the percieved movment of the arm/rod) but the other side shows Zero Free play. I.e. even when the plate is fully compressed I have NO free play on the frictions.
The problem is the pressure plate is not compressing evenly. As you can see in the pictures below the plate has about 1.5mm of run out (18.85mm vs 20.24) measure from the ring gear flange on the flywheel.
(https://i.ibb.co/LZgr23w/po1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LZgr23w)
(https://i.ibb.co/smMJFd4/po2-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/smMJFd4)
Ok, ive followed this through, First suspect the springs are not loating. Ive tried 2 sets of springs (old and new), ive also tested the springs that they locate in the pressure plate ans flywheel. Ive even tried glueing the spring into thr flywheel so i know 100% that they are located and straight! No difference.
What also happing is that the surflex plates at 8.4mm thickness and not 8.00mm as per psec, this is losing my nearly a 1mm of free play. The combination of the plates and runout if meaning i am not getting free play in the clutch!!!!
QUESTIONS.
1. Why do i have 1.5mm of runnout the pressure plates and does this actually matter is it normal.
2. do the oversize plates matter?
Kev
1/ probably spring pressure variation but inadmissible, so yes
2/ surmountable, see.earlier posta
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Bingo...the plate thickness. there is a slightly longer pushrod available that goes with the RAM single plate clutch.That might well cure your problem.
I dont think the longer rod will help, im tightening up the clutch tool right up so the pressure plate is at full travel and the springs are coil bound.
Its them fecking plates! But I changed the plates it made it worse. Crazy.
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1/ probably spring pressure variation but inadmissible, so yes
2/ surmountable, see.earlier posta
No i dont think so the plate is hard back on the tool. The springs are coil bound.
Again. Same.
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Let's see if I understand the problem: The pressure plate doesn't release evenly? One side compresses the springs, the other does not?
If that is the case, it must be hanging up on the splines somewhere. I can't imagine a weak or strong spring having such a radical effect.
I've heard of new plates having sharp edges from being stamped out, which then grab the spline. I've had to carefully de-bur those edges to ensure smooth operation.
But that doesn't explain the original problem how a normally operating clutch gradually started dragging.
One of the clutches I've done (seems all of the Guzzis I've had over the last seven years have needed clutch work for one reason or another - usually not because of worn friction material) the flywheel splines were notched. Since I couldn't find a replacement flywheel at the time I spent many hours scraping the teeth eliminating the notches. What a miserable job! When I was done they weren't perfect, but weren't notchy anymore. The clutch has worked perfectly ever since.
I had the same problem with the sureflex plates - grabby to the point of being hard on the drive train.
Anyway, it seems like you're homing in on the source of the problem. It could be (and probably is considering the complexity) one of those issues with multiple problems. There's a truth that comes to mind - the more difficult the problem, the more individual things that need to be resolved and the more steps there are to its resolution. What I'm saying is that the original issue may have been due to parts that have now been replaced, and the current issue could be something entirely different.
I do know that once solved, you'll be floating on air for days. :-)
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As mentioned. If your pressure plate is not being depressed evenly. Pull the flywheel so you can lay it on a table with the springs glued into the flywheel as you stated you have done.
Then just set the pressure plate "properly aligned" with the arrow on the flywheel and check the depth all the way around. Then maybe set a weight on the alignment tool or a large socket and see what you get.
You may also need to measure the spring height while glued in the flywheel (BTW: I glue the springs to the flywheel while the flywheel is flat on a bench). You may also want to NOT properly align the pressure plate. Find a tooth that makes the pressure plate sit on the springs between the spring holes.
Depending on what your are using for an alignment tool. It may not have a large enough center hole to clear the raised area on the pressure plate the the cup fits into. That could tilt the pressure plate a few MM to one side.
This is one puzzling issue. If this was your FIRST clutch job, very easy to say operator error. But you stated you have done, forgot the term you used, but a number of them with out problems.
Keep us informed!!!
Tom
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You may also need to measure the spring height while glued in the flywheel (BTW: I glue the springs to the flywheel while the flywheel is flat on a bench). You may also want to NOT properly align the pressure plate. Find a tooth that makes the pressure plate sit on the springs between the spring holes.
I like that idea and I'm gonna steal it. Thanks Tom.
Haven't read through the whole thread, but I'm guessing that the obvious 'warped intermediate plate' isn't an issue (no need to respond to that).
Have you tried a different set of clutch plates? At this stage...might be worth it.
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For the record. When I say glue the springs, I don't mean JB Weld or the like. Use something removable, Permatex #2, silicone adhesive sealant, rubber trim glue.
Tom
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For the record. When I say glue the springs, I don't mean JB Weld or the like. Use something removable, Permatex #2, silicone adhesive sealant, rubber trim glue.
Tom
Tom, dont worry , i know what your meant. Just intentionally locate the springs.
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CRACKED IT!!!
I think its working, haven't been able to ride the bike yet but Ive run it up on the drive and its selecting gear and drag has stopped. Long story short i followed lucian's advice fitted the springs into the pressure plate not the flywheel (I'll do this every time now). I also used the welding moleys on the lever to test it. Worked a treat!!!
Im 99% sure the problem was caused by the oversize surflex frictions that measure 8.4mm, which is 0.4mm over size. Times that by 2, i'm losing 0.8mm free play.
Massive thankyou to everyone for the encouragement to keep plodding away. Hopefully this thread will serve as warning for anyone else, dont assume new parts are good.
Kev
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Im 99% sure the problem was caused by the oversize surflex frictions that measure 8.4mm, which is 0.4mm over size. Times that by 2, i'm losing 0.8mm free play.
Kev: It is worse than you think. Yes, you have inadvertently increased the total thickness of your clutch pack by 0.8mm. But the lever on the back of the transmission is a 'Class-II' lever. The position of the pivot fulcrum and the actuating screw mean that the lever system has perhaps 5:1 or 6:1 ratio of mechanical advantage at the outboard forked end. If you alter the length of the throwout system by 0.8mm, it will present itself as nearly 5mm of position change at the outboard fork end of the transmission lever. And consequently a similar large amount at the hand lever. That screw adjuster in the transmission lever is thus VERY sensitive. Half a turn is a lot!
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Kev: It is worse than you think. Yes, you have inadvertently increased the total thickness of your clutch pack by 0.8mm. But the lever on the back of the transmission is a 'Class-II' lever. The position of the pivot fulcrum and the actuating screw mean that the lever system has perhaps 5:1 or 6:1 ratio of mechanical advantage at the outboard forked end. If you alter the length of the throwout system by 0.8mm, it will present itself as nearly 5mm of position change at the outboard fork end of the transmission lever. And consequently a similar large amount at the hand lever. That screw adjuster in the transmission lever is thus VERY sensitive. Half a turn is a lot!
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
The whole thing felt *wrong*.
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I've even had 'normal' plates be slightly oversize resulting in clutch drag - but only for the first few miles or first ride. It was many years ago, so don't recall the details, but I may have torn it back apart to find what I'd done wrong. At any rate, I decided to ride it and see if that didn't fix it, which it did.
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result!!!!!
fingers crossed you've got it sorted
I've suffered some surfex woes in the past, been following this thread with interest.
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This thread is why I use a spacer on the clutch lever perch. It’s only drawback is you have to use a split perch to do it that way. It gives the hand lever enough travel to operate and have free play.