Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: normzone on October 19, 2023, 12:41:24 PM
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Hello again, all -
wirespokes has my old Bassa - he's a pretty clever fellow, but I wanted to ask the lot of you to offer technical support to him if you will.
The bike still suffers from poor fuel economy, I never did resolve that issue. And any counsel you can lend him regarding synching up throttle bodies and all that good stuff would be helpful as well. I have added a few links from my bookmarks.
I know I can count on your collective good will - I haven't seen him post here yet on this topic, so I thought I'd ask on his behalf, as part of my entering "currently between Guzzi's" status.
Thanks again for all your help -
normzone
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/
An old GuzziDiag link - I believe there are updated ones now
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=69168.0
Tuneup counsel from the V11LeMans folks
https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/topic/19610-decent-tune-up/
More tuneup counsel
https://archive.guzzitech.com/EVTuneup-Jeff_B.html
throttle body sync google
https://www.google.com/search?q=throttle+body+sync&sitesearch=wildguzzi.com%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Fboard%3D1.0&start=0&num=100
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Sad to hear you let your old baby go :sad:
Hope fully you can bet back into the riding mode in the near future :thumb:
If Henshaw comes back around, I'll put you up in a cabin if I can make it :cool:
Tom
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Yes, I bought Norman's Bassa and rode it home from San Diego. I laid over at some friends place in Long Beach for a couple weeks helping them out and getting the Bassa ready for the long haul back to Portland Oregon. First on the agenda was air pressure - both were way down, like 24 and 15. Getting any air into them torqued the valve stems and what was in there escaped. So, without my tire tools I broke the beads, reached in and undid the valve stems. They're 90 degree after-market with oring seals on the outside. The orings were toast. Since all my orings were at home, I shoe-goo'd them and they sealed. The aftermarket crashbars weren't attached at the lower end which essentially left that frame fixing point un-fixed. The crash bar rattled against the frame and sounded like a rod knock. Prices for stuff in LA are crazy - I spent close to ten bucks for a couple allen bolts, nuts and washers. The wonky rear turn signals got replaced with the undamaged front ones, and the fronts got replaced with some decent asian signals. And, of course, I got rid of the bar-backs first thing. I'm into the sportier bikes and that riding position so it was a step in the right direction. I've always had bikes with low bars, so having a Cali with floor boards and wide bars is an entirely new experience. I feel pretty clumsy on it.
I left Long Beach early on a week day and didn't get to Santa Barbara until noon. Man - surface streets were not the way to go!
Visited a friend in Santa Barbara for an hour or two then headed up 101 towards San Francisco. It was nice weather and it was especially comfortable behind a big old barn door.
I had a friend in Berkeley I'd intended on seeing, but he didn't get back to me with his address. Since it was a fairly warm evening I kept on riding getting through the bay area around ten or so. By the time I got to I-5 north of Sacramento I was ready to crash. Pulled into a rest stop and slept and hour or two. Did that a couple more times and then just before dawn pulled into South Weed for gas. After fueling, the bike was dead. Flicked the kill switch a couple times. key on/off a couple times. Nothing. I was starting to feel kinda fuuk'd. But then my better instincts kicked in and figured I'd do something simple like check the fuses. Not much hope, but hell, worth a try. What do you know - a blown fuse!!!
Went back into the gas station mini mart and asked for fuses. Nope... oh wait - he went back to one of the end of one of the aisles and came back with a little package. Said " these have been back there forever - maybe they'll work?" Sure enough, they were the right ones and there were two 15s in the assortment. I'm starting to feel luckier...
Went outside and it's getting light now. Wonder if I should put in a different fuse than a 15 in case the new one also blows, then I'll only have one left. Oh hell, just stick it in! It didn't blow!! I'm feeling better now. :-)
Gear all back on, turn the key and now the pump comes on, but only a click from the starter. (not feeling so hot again)
A guy was walking out to his car-hauler from the mini-mart so asked him for a jump. He came over with his remote starter pack. Gear back off, I unpacked to get at the seat and the battery. Hooked up the battery pack and it registered 12.8 volts. I'm concerned the battery died showing voltage but no amperage. That was the only thing that made any kind of sense. Anyway, I hit the magic button, and hey, she started up. But...
The guy says "looks like you've got a leak".
Sure enough, there's a big puddle under the bike. Turn off the engine and dripping stops. He unhooks the battery pack anbd takes offl. I'm kinda worried. When I get the leak fixed, will it start again?
The only fuel line I can see is the one coming from the tank so I tighten the clamp a couple turns. It's got a steel mesh covering so I'm not real sure it had any effect, but sure enough - key on, no leak. Bike starts right up. No clue what happened before but now it's all good.
Norman dropped the bomb on me when I picked up the bike that he figured he was getting something like 25 mpg. So far the bike had been running just fine and was closer to the 40 mpg mark. It's possible low tire pressure, high speeds with a barn door fairing and not using fifth gear (he never told me what he had against fifth) contributed heavily to the poor mileage. The mileage improved a few mpg after tightening the fuel line clamp. Go figure.
So I kept riding. An hour or so later I'm heading up the Siskiyous and it's raining - been dry and warm up till this point. Get close to the summit and it's snowing. It's that wet snow and it's coming down heavy. I wipe the visor and it's instantly covered. Can't see squat. Open the visor and it stings my eyes. And, as if that isn't bad enough, the inside of the visor is all fogged also. If I wipe the visor, the next instant I'm heading towards the edge of the lane. Spooky shit!!! So I manage to pull in behind a slow moving semi and plant myself right there. another couple miles and the snow is replaced by heavy rains. Big relief, but I'm getting soaked - wasn't prepared for this. At the bottom is a rest stop, I pull out the rain gear, warm up my hands in the hand dryer (it blew mostly cold air) then fumbled into the rain gear.
Several hours later it had cleared up and was pretty nice. I was starting to nod off, twice, so pulled off at the next rest stop. Got off the bike and laid down on the grass. Fell instantly asleep. Now, my phone was dead and there's no clock on the bike. But from the gas station receipts it appears I slept of a couple hours. I must have been quite a sight lying on my back with all my gear on including my helmet. LOL
So I made it home and have been fiddling with the bike ever since. I've gotten the speedometer working and replaced the tach. Gotta have gauges! I've cleaned up the wheels and got the corrosion off the chrome. And then there's the little stuff like clutch lever bushing (the old one was so worn it was demolishing cables), adjusting shifter linkeage, and don't recall what all else.
I've been trying to figure out how to adjust the throttle bodies, but they don't seem to conform to the different tutorials I've read. And I'm afraid of twisting the wrong screw. John Croucher said to check the butterfly seals, so that might be my next task. When I screw in the air bleeds almost all the way, it idles at 1000 rpm, but looks to be very rich. From what I've read, the air bleeds should be out a 1/2 to 3/4 turn. But then it idles at 1300.
The valve were set at something like 8 and 10, and if I'm remembering correctly, that was 10 intakes. It was something crazy like that. So now they're at 4 and 6. It's feels like it's running rough and needs balancing - in the worst way, so that's where I'm stuck right now. Richardson gives detailed instructions for the Bassa and in one of the steps says to adjust the thumb screw on the bottom side of the left throttle body. No thumb screws here. So I'm lost. I'm thinking I need to take the pin gauges and measure just how far open each butterfly really is and record that data in case I mess things up.
I tell you, I'm not a big fan of FI - much prefer carbs. And on top of that, I think I like a distributor and points also. Not having a way to control timing and idle speed is driving me nuts.
I tried to remove the cam sensor but it's extremely tight. I could wiggle it up maybe a quarter inch, but that was about it. I eventually just set it back down and tightened it up.
Now, that brings me to another question - the temp sensor in the right cylinder, head or whatever. It looks to be original and probably plastic, but I'm not sure. It kind of looks coppery, but I have a feeling it was made to fool me. Where do I get a proper metal one? I've got the new sensor but don't want to touch the old one till the new mount is handy.
Do I like the bike? I think so. I think I'd like it just fine if it was all tuned and adjusted. But, you know, I've realized that a bike like this doesn't give me the satisfaction I get riding the LeMans or similar. It's got gobs of power and sounds nice, but to me it's just transportation - like a car. Well, maybe not that bad, but I'm kinda bored riding it. I never thought I could feel that way riding a bike. But I do. So eventually i'll probably wind up re-doing it with a LM tank and seat and perhaps a full on racing style fairing - I do like having the protection this winter.
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Hi Wirespokes , that was a great bit of reading and adventure, you had me riveted to the screen, I always look forward to Nick Adams adventures but what a story, hope to hear more of your adventures. And hope you get the bike sorted :popcorn:
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Adventure on two wheels! I can picture you sleeping in your helmet, been there, done that.
I pulled the original mount for the sensor and replaced it with the metal one, and after reading the elaborate series of arguments on the matter on the forum (which, after all the arguments, boiled down to "technically, it can't make a difference") crafted a homemade copper spring to go from the bottom of the sensor well to touch the base of the sensor mount because it amused me to do so.
Got the speedometer working? Medical school misses you, there is a shortage of skilled surgeons.
If it gives you 40 mpg, then it's a show of respect from the bike. It started out like that with me also.
I agree with you on carbs, points, and a distributor.
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On the cam sensor being tight, what happens is the body swells and gets tight in the hole. It will come out but I would only take it out if I was going to replace it. It seems to me ever one with a swelled up body is dying but I don’t know that for sure
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Adventure? Sounds like a nightmare to me. Sending him off with those tire pressures, leaking fuel, crap battery, is inexcusable.
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I was thinking the same but I also wasn’t there so who knows the terms and conditions. Beside that it was well written and a great read, I could picture it as if I was there, wirespokes has a talent for writing.
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"Sending him off with those tire pressures, leaking fuel, crap battery, is inexcusable."
When I last rode it a couple of months prior, tire pressures were fine, it had never leaked fuel, and I put a new battery in it for him the week before he got here.
But the story IS more entertaining without those details. :thumb:
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Adventure? Sounds like a nightmare to me. Sending him off with those tire pressures, leaking fuel, crap battery, is inexcusable.
Well, he didn’t exactly “send him off” anywhere..
Did I read that he is a surgeon ? He probably knows how to make command decisions. Also, the title says “my old ‘Bassa”.
Can I ask what the bike is that he bought ?
I thought a ‘Bassa was an Ambassador.
(https://i.ibb.co/48SdT63/IMG-4580.png) (https://ibb.co/48SdT63)
What am I not understanding ?
Encountering adversity on long trips is something I can relate to, at least he didn’t try to set it on fire…!
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Can I ask what the bike is that he bought ?
I thought a ‘Bassa was an Ambassador.
What am I not understanding ?
Bassa was a full dress version of the Tonti California, much like the EV. Tubeless wheels and a fair amount of bling are the main differentiators between it and other 1100 Cali's
this photo is simply a Bassa from the interwebs. Along with the CalVin, the finest iteration of the breed, in my view
(https://i.imgur.com/oDYdzJn.png)
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Bassa was a full dress version of the Tonti California, much like the EV. Tubeless wheels and a fair amount of bling are the main differentiators between it and other 1100 Cali's
this photo is simply a Bassa from the interwebs. Along with the CalVin, the finest iteration of the breed, in my view
(https://i.imgur.com/oDYdzJn.png)
Ahhh.
Thank you.
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I was told that Bassa means low in Italian but that is probably incorrect.
Its other name is Special Sport. Basically an EV with different bars, lower seat, adjustable fork damping and tubeless spoke wheels. They moved the smaller 15 M computer to the left side under the side cover to lower the seat. Miserable bikes, they never wear out. They came out in ‘99, I bought one new and I still have it and still like it.
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I was told that Bassa means low in Italian but that is probably incorrect.
Its other name is Special Sport. Basically an EV with different bars, lower seat, adjustable fork damping and tubeless spoke wheels. They moved the smaller 15 M computer to the left side under the side cover to lower the seat. Miserable bikes, they never wear out. They came out in ‘99, I bought one new and I still have it and still like it.
Not quite true John. The Special Sport is a different model. Bassa had pearl paint, SS had two tone paint. SS had tube tires and non-adjustable fork damping.
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I thought they were the same. What years were the Special Sports?
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Mine was an 02. I think they were also available as an 01. This was mine.
(https://i.ibb.co/3swv5bF/IMG-0153-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3swv5bF)
Commonly known as the copper top. Others had a red and black paint job.
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Yup - that's what this Bassa looks like - even the pearl paint. It's gorgeous - makes me want to leave it as it is, even though I'm not into cruisers.
Nope, not a surgeon! Norman just said that because if I could take care of the things I have, then I should have been.
The battery is good - I have no clue why it didn't start that one time after replacing the fuse. That's one of the reasons I'm not into FI bikes - the more complex they are the harder it is to troubleshoot. I've read explanations why it was necessary to transition to FI, but my thought is that it's easier to produce and requires less work in a service. So far, I haven't seen better fuel economy than carburetors and high pressure fuel kinda scares me. I also prefer manually operated petcocks with reserve positions, rather than dodgy low fuel lights.
There are more stories I can tell. Let's see...
You know, after getting home I told my friend in Santa Barbara how the trip had gone. His comment "I've had many of the same adventures, but not all on the same trip!" LOL
Norm might not know that I repair BMW airhead speedometers as my retirement job. I'm always backlogged a few months at least. But fixing this speedometer was a challenge. Especially since all my tools were 1000 miles away in Portland. My friend is a top-notch appliance repairman and one of his neighbors is a handyman so I did have some tools at hand, but speedos are a lot like watch or clock repair requiring different and finer tools.
First problem was removing the bezel. Veglia made them out of stainless and let me tell you, they are S T I F F !!! it's nice they don't get dented, corroded or rusted, but uncrimping them is a major undertaking. It's a JOB. So once it was opened up and got a look inside, it was obvious the main needle shaft bushing was ultra sloppy. I've worked on Veglias on the LM4, T3 and others, and hadn't run into this problem before. To get at that sloppy bushing requires removing the hairspring which is held in place on the shaft with a split collar. It's on there very tight and I tried budging it with a screw driver and twisting a little bit, but realized that any more pressure would torque the shaft to the side and possible bend or snap it. So I went looking for another small screwdriver so I could lever from two sides at once. Lever it straight up. I put down the work and while I was searching for another screw driver, my friend picked it up and did just what I'd been doing and snapped the shaft. Damn!!!
My friend lives in Bellflower about 20 miles from Signal Hill. So... a trip to Moto Classics was DEFINITELY in order. A day or two later I was talking to Mark and he had a good used speedo for eighty or a hundred. After digging around in his junk pile, came up with one just like mine, but only half there. Price was right (free) and since it appeared to have a good shaft I left with high hopes of getting the thing up and running.
So - how to remove the hairspring without snapping the shaft? Levering with two screw drivers didn't do it. Then I had the bright idea to jam a wedge (dinky screwdriver) into the split of the ring and force it apart a little. Success - that worked.
Now I had the shaft out, and inspected the bushing. It too was very sloppy. Both of these bushings appeared to have never had any lubrication, and another inspected later also looked to have never been lubed. Perhaps this was one of the reasons for these gauges failing? Seems likely.
Ok - how to fix a sloppy bronze bushing??? I went to sleep chewing on that one. Possibly fill the hole with epoxy - but how to keep the opening centered? Came up with the idea to place three strands of copper wire in the hole. My friend couldn't find his soldering iron, so bought one so I could use it. I soldered in three strands of wire and then just kept going and filled the whole thing with solder - with the needle shaft inserted. The solder didn't stick to the shaft thankfully. Problem solved. I was really proud of that one!
So then it all went back together, though the odometer jammed about 100 miles later, and the trip meter only tripped the 1s digit, so I never reset it. At least the trip meter did track mileage for gas stops. The solder-fix held up the whole trip home and was still tight, though I did replace it with a proper bronze bushing. I've pulled the speedo (many times over) and made everything right Well, it wasn't as simple as it sounds or that straight-forward. I think I've removed it ten times, and as recently as today, making adjustments. The most recent was that it read about right at 60, but when it read 30, actual speed was around 25. Played around with it four or five hours yesterday and finally got it reading correctly and re-installed. Fingers crossed - I think it's DONE!!!
I've got an M2.5 Left hand tap and die coming so I can repair the trip meter on one of the spare gauges. The trip knob at some point must have gotten bumped which snapped off the threaded end. I'll be making a knob plus the shaft it attaches to.
I feel like I've graduated a course in Veglia speedo repair.
I'm not much on posting photos, but I'll see what I can do. Hope you're not upset with me Norm for taking paint remover to the valve covers. They're not flat black anymore. I found the seat pretty comfortable, but don't understand why the passenger section was cut off?
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It's your bike now, and I'm eager to see you do as you please with it.
The passenger part of the seat was long gone, when I got it the P.O. original had done good things and bad things to the seat.
The front part was a custom Russell seat, unfortunately sized for somebody about a foot shorter than I.
And the back part was this seperate painful little hard thing about the size of a burrito like they used to do on hard tail choppers sixty plus years ago - it hurt to sit on even in the parking space.
It's difficult to say why people do what they do with bikes - this one looked new when I got it, but immediately began shedding it's plastichrome and spitting instruments.
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It's your bike now, and I'm eager to see you do as you please with it.
The passenger part of the seat was long gone, when I got it the P.O. original had done good things and bad things to the seat.
The front part was a custom Russell seat, unfortunately sized for somebody about a foot shorter than I.
And the back part was this seperate painful little hard thing about the size of a burrito like they used to do on hard tail choppers sixty plus years ago - it hurt to sit on even in the parking space.
It's difficult to say why people do what they do with bikes - this one looked new when I got it, but immediately began shedding it's plastichrome and spitting instruments.
The not starting was most likely the ignition switch is dirty or worn. Spray some electrical cleaner through it. Next replace all the relays with 5 prongs so you can rotate them forward one notch if you ever have an issue again. Flush the holder with cleaner too. I'd replace all the fuses and clean it's holder too. They get brittle with age.
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Thanks, Vagrant. Good advice! The bike lived many years in San Diego, outside under a carport. I know how foggy it can get, so even though it was fifteen or twenty miles from the ocean, the salty marine foggy air performed its magic. Not as bad as I'd have thought, but the chrome and aluminum suffered. The aluminum can be polished up (and mostly has been now) but the chrome has little spots and bubbles. it looks pretty good at five feet, but any closer and you can see its compromised. However, I figure with a good coat of wax, it should be pretty stable.
Norm - so the temp sensor mount was replaced. Cool! But the sensor wasn't? You gave me a new one - correct? I"ll have to test it and see how it's doing.
Ok - I won't fuss with the cam position sensor. Thanks for the advice, and i'll have to pay attention to it.
When I saw Mark at Moto Classics I asked him about an ignition switch mount for a T3. He said he'd keep an eye out and when he ran across one, he'd set it out for me.
So the second time I went back to see if he had any other parts I needed, including the ignition switch mount. This time he wasn't as friendly as last time. I'm good friends with a previous business partner of his from the early 90s , Joshua, who has been selling BMW parts all this time. In fact, during my 'divorce years' in the late 90s in LA, I spent a day per week helping him out with his parts business doing whatever was needed, dismantling, cleaning, fixing up bikes, advice, helping with several moves, etc. Joshua told me later that it's pretty normal for Mark to fly-off-the handle at people and play games on them.
I asked Mark about the ignition switch holder and he went over to the one he'd found and asked how much i was willing to spend. Then he went into a tirade about how he'd bet his helper I wouldn't spend $20. That I was cheap and wouldn't spend what stuff is worth. He then told me it was worth $40 and showed me a listing on ebay where one was being offered at that price. And, he said, there would be shipping on top of the ebay offering as well. All of this in an angry tone. He asked if I still wanted it, which I didn't, and he threw it at the work bench. One of the things he told me (a few times) was that he knew I was cheap because I'd gotten a hydro pushrod from him a month before and I'd balked at $20 - for a rare item i wasn't going to find anywhere else.
Truth is, I was very happy at the time he had the pushrod and $20 was more than acceptable. However, in talking with him a little more about a few other things I needed, he told me to look again, that the parts I needed may still be there. What i needed were special head nuts, and sure enough, they were still in the sockets where they normally lived. So I got back to him telling him I didn't need those other parts and to just send the pushrod.
Evidently Mark forgot about that and I hit a hot button with him. I do find it humorous someone getting upset about us cheap Guzzi owners. :-)
I left his shop empty handed that day. But I did get an ignition switch holder from photoguzzi a few weeks ago. Thanks, photo!
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I do not recall specifically whether the sensor itself was replaced in that round, but I'll wager it was because at that time I was doing everything I could, based on advice from threads here in the forum, to solve the poor fuel economy problem.
And I didn't have any problem with throwing money at potential solutions, so if somebody said something might be an influence on that, I went ahead and swapped out the component in question if I could get one.
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The way I solved the poor mileage on my Bassa is I took the leads from the temp sensor in the right cylinder head and ran it through a dpdt switch through or around a 5k (IIRC, consult chart) resistor. So it shows the ecu it’s either cold or fully warmed up, depending on the switch position. I use it as an electric choke, it won’t start cold without it. It runs about the same either way except in warmed position it can get 50 mpg if I run close to the speed limits.
Edit: the ecu gets its signal from either the original sensor or a resistor with an ohms rating corresponding to a fully warmed engine. I tried a rheostat and it worked but was not necessary.
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I don’t know Mark but I know some other small shop and parts suppliers and ran my own small business before retirement.What we all had in common were dealings with customers who took up a lot of our time and efforts then complained about the cost.Cheap was only the first word we called them.If the shoe fits…
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John - That sounds like good data. Let's see if I understand what you did: The ECU 'sees' one of two circuits - #1. The stock temp sensor in the right side head, or #2. A 5K ohm resistor.
When the engine is warmed up, the temp sensor should have 5K resistance?
Tkelly - May all your dealings with Mark be joyful and pleasant. :-)
Does anyone know the o-ring size for the bypass screws?
Thanks, Norm. Now that I know the holder isn't the cheapo plastic part, I can check it all out.
One other question - does anyone know what these electrical connectors are called? I'd like to make a test harness for the TPS.
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Yep, you got it. I wouldn’t use that resistor unless I checked the chart in the injection supplement, I didn’t have a quick link. It really does work well and a similar setup is used on 98 EV’s
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John - I'll have to locate the injection supplement. This FI stuff is a new ballgame for me.
I realized a DPDT switch isn't needed. The returns (grounds) can be tied together and a single pole switch directs current either to the sensor or the resistor.
Ok - I looked around for sensor specs and finally found the data in Guzziology. Dave says all the MG sensors have the same values. At 30F resistance should be around 10K ohms, gradually getting less until about 260F it's 100 ohms.
A resistance of 5K would approximate a temp of about 60F. That's essentially an engine at room temp.
What makes sense to me is giving the ECU a fully warmed up reading, otherwise it's adding fuel. A cool engine needs a richer mix. If the mapping is calling for a leaner mix than optimum, then reporting a cooler temp would help. But only at those particular RPMs where it runs lean.
I'll have to monitor the temp sensor to see if it's reading correctly first, then go from there. If it reads higher than acceptable resistance when warmed up, then it could explain running rich. In my experience, bikes run the best, and get the best mileage, when the mixture is correct.
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I was going off memory but I think you got the right idea.it was almost thirty years ago and it’s worked for over 100k miles. When I did it I used a resistor the same value as a fully warmed engine, I don’t remember what that particular value is. We played with it on the dyno and it worked there . I don’t remember why I used a dpdt switch, it may have just been what I had for it has an aviation switch cover on it. So I open the cover, flip the switch to use the sensor for a cold start and depending on ambient temp, close the cover which puts the signal to the resistor and forget about it until the next cold start when it’s hard to start until I switch it to the sensor. That’s why I don’t use it on the wife’s bike, it adds complexity which is hard for her to comprehend. She called once this summer because of the kill switch being in off position after her brothers pushed her around a parking lot for a while trying to get it started. I was happy it was an easy fix over the fone!
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John - I'll have to locate the injection supplement. This FI stuff is a new ballgame for me.
I realized a DPDT switch isn't needed. The returns (grounds) can be tied together and a single pole switch directs current either to the sensor or the resistor.
Ok - I looked around for sensor specs and finally found the data in Guzziology. Dave says all the MG sensors have the same values. At 30F resistance should be around 10K ohms, gradually getting less until about 260F it's 100 ohms.
A resistance of 5K would approximate a temp of about 60F. That's essentially an engine at room temp.
What makes sense to me is giving the ECU a fully warmed up reading, otherwise it's adding fuel. A cool engine needs a richer mix. If the mapping is calling for a leaner mix than optimum, then reporting a cooler temp would help. But only at those particular RPMs where it runs lean.
I'll have to monitor the temp sensor to see if it's reading correctly first, then go from there. If it reads higher than acceptable resistance when warmed up, then it could explain running rich. In my experience, bikes run the best, and get the best mileage, when the mixture is correct.
The FI on your bike is primitive but certainly functional.
Information is based on a Bassa print I found without knowing what year your bike is so there might be changes from the one I found.
You have 4 players in the game, engine temp, air temp, pressure and TPS that determine fueling.
Engine temp, you’re familiar with this one.
Air temp, also an NTC, and used for air density.
Pressure sensor, could be piezo type, used for atmospheric pressure, altitude compensation. This one is built into the ECU.
TPS, variable and the major player in this system.
Check the sensors you can, engine and air temp (watch the range for opens as the meter reading changes as temp changes, don’t mistake an auto range meter for a blip).
Set the TPS as accurately as humanly possible.
Playing with sensor resistance is as old as fuel injection itself. You can find some improvement messing with it but it can be a tedious waste of time. If there is an issue requiring large changes it’s an indication that one of the sensors needs to be replaced. Normally you should be just fine as designed unless there was a major f-up with the design).
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Thanks, John. Sounds like we're on the same page.
Hat - in this case, it's quite possible the sensors never did give the correct data to the computer. I'll check it out and go from there. I'm like 25 years behind the times, but hey - I'm into old stuff so that's how it goes. i tried to stay away from FI bikes for the last 20 years after riding an R11S for several. I've found the older technology to be more robust, simpler, better economy and not lacking in power. It's a little more fiddly, but I prefer the trade-off, and besides, I can optimize the older stuff myself whereas the newer stuff is built to be untouchable. I'm still debating whether to convert this thing to 40mm carbs and ditch the pump and other complexities. These older bikes are now going pretty cheap so it's difficult to ignore them - and here I am.
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In the collection I stuffed in the saddlebag is a new air temp sensor in a 2 1/2" cardboard box - it's a little resistor that mounts under the front ride side of the gas tank.
The couple of times I've had diagnostics hooked up that sensor would sometimes read error messages - If you've not installed it yet it couldn't hurt. When I'd test the sensor value on the bike it would show nominal, but who knows?
It would be fascinating to watch you take the bike to carbs, better you than me. :popcorn:
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Thanks, John. Sounds like we're on the same page.
Hat - in this case, it's quite possible the sensors never did give the correct data to the computer. I'll check it out and go from there. I'm like 25 years behind the times, but hey - I'm into old stuff so that's how it goes. i tried to stay away from FI bikes for the last 20 years after riding an R11S for several. I've found the older technology to be more robust, simpler, better economy and not lacking in power. It's a little more fiddly, but I prefer the trade-off, and besides, I can optimize the older stuff myself whereas the newer stuff is built to be untouchable. I'm still debating whether to convert this thing to 40mm carbs and ditch the pump and other complexities. These older bikes are now going pretty cheap so it's difficult to ignore them - and here I am.
What’s a carb or that thing they call points?
I’m the opposite, I’d take FI over those other things. Well most, not including D jetronic or CIS. Well ok, maybe more versions due to growing pains.
I do understand your reasoning due to familiarity.
I picked up a 2003 stone that sat for 6 years with a tank half filled with water and the other half was everything besides gasoline. Cleaned the tank, new fuel filter, hit the starter and fired right up.
Give it a chance, not good, switch to carbs.
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The 03 ev I bought had the same problem. He bought it new and the dealers never could fix the issue. He would get milage in the 20’s. Tried every trick in the book including the brass base for the engine temp sensor instead of the plastic one. He eventually went to an ecu from the vintage and that seemed to fix the issues. I would assume it was in the ecu since all sensors were replaced and verified to be in proper working order. Odd thing and it was the only one I’d heard of until this thread.
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To add mystery, the bike got 40+ MPG on the highway when I first got it, but gradually declined to the mid twenties despite a tuneup from Sean Fader and my efforts based on the forum members counsel.
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Norm - I tried to lift off the tank yesterday and almost succeeded. Disconnected the fuel line at the tap, unplugged one connection, disconnected the vent line, but then there was still a line from the pump. Time for dinner and put it all back together. The right side throttle didn't want to spring back closed so needed to clean and access the pivot points - and of course, that requires tank removal. Had the bike all this time and hadn't pulled the tank yet - it's the longest I've ever had a bike and not done that. i much prefer the earlier bikes - remove fuel lines at the petcocks and lift the tank off.
Anyway, when the tank was tilted up i noticed the temp sensor was disconnected so plugged it back in. Thanks for answering the question. :-)
I feel a lot of play at the left side butterfly like the shaft bushings must be worn. Probably need to remove it for a good look.
My friend in LA repairs appliances and won't have anything to do with any made in Italy. Says they're overly complex and he can't warranty them. I was thinking of him while confronting this fuel injection system. Sure, they're nice when they work, but when they don't they can be a nightmare to sort out. So I was looking at the complex linkage to open two butterflies and wondering why two cables, one to each throttle body, wouldn't work. Why all this complex linkage? All because of the cold start idle advance? And why is that necessary? Can't one just open the throttle a little? Maybe not. And then there's the second throttle cable keeping tension on the linkage.
And I look at all that stuff packed under the tank - and still it holds a gallon less than my LM and gets five to ten miles worse economy. Is this really an advanced technology?
Since these are 40mm throttle bodies, will a 40mm Dellorto mount to the rubber spigots? Anyone ever tried? It just seems so much simpler to mount some carbs, replace the throttle with a dual pull Tomaselli, get rid of the fuel pump, giant fuel filter and that complex throttle linkage. I'm seriously spoiled by the earlier bikes - I prefer simplicity, especially when it comes to troubleshooting.
I'm seriously considering the change, but in the meantime I'll see if I can't get it sorted. It runs well enough, but it doesn't have that turbine-like feel of my other bikes. There's a roughness to it that needs tuning. And I know it can get better mileage.
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If the Bassa is like my EVT, there is a pull throttle cable and a return cable. If the throttle ever gets stuck, you can twist the grip to the off position.
All that fancy linkage between the TB's is there to keep the TB's in factory sync and keep them working as the factory intended. Unless you know what your doing, best not to mess with them. Or do some reading on how it works first.
Tom
PS: have fun with the ummm...."quick disconnect". What a false name if I ever heard one. I believe the Bassa has the electric petcock. Sorry for the confusion.
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I may be all wet but it seems to me that FI has gone through transition periods since it has come to motorcycles. I had a 2006 Harley with FI, the first year on Softails. The bike was lost in a fire so I replaced it with a brand new 2017, also a Softail. It had low rpm surging which drove me nuts probably due to transitioning from open loop to closed loop and vice versa. The 2006 didn't have this setup and ran on set values. My 2016 1400 Audace had similar issues like the Harley but not as bad. I think the newer bikes have had these issues worked out. My 2019 V7 runs perfectly as does my V100 but that was helped by water cooling. I would not go back to carbs even though they are easy to service and tune now that run ability with FI has been improved substantially.
kk
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Do not try to tinker with the FI until you have read thoroughly on this forum regarding "the sacred screw" and the yellow paint - it's possible to jack the system up such that you're unlikely to ever get it back where it's supposed to be - at least that is how the cautions read.
I took a trawl through my old bookmarks - no clear answers for you here but some good clues to follow up on ...
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=115161.0
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=69168.0
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=96957.0
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=119140.0
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The sacred screw gets brought up constantly. What exactly is it used for and what will it do if messed with?
kk
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The sacred screw gets brought up constantly. What exactly is it used for and what will it do if messed with?
kk
Huzo knows quite a bit about that. He made something for getting it back in range after someone moved it
There’s others of course but he may be the most recent . Maybe when he comes in from the heat…
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The sacred screw, as far as I've learned, is a factory setting for the right throttle body butterfly. It was set on a flow bench, and is a datum for the computer. Whenever I have the TBs off, I'll take a measurement with a pin gauge to record how far the butterfly is open.
Well, yeah, Norm, it's taken me this long to get some basic idea how to sync the throttle bodies. That sacred screw really concerned me. It does run now - I don't want to cripple it and make it unrideable. Thanks for the links - I'll check them out.
Tom - I don't get it. We still have to balance the throttle bodies, so why not have a cable to each? I know, there was a move away from dual cables to a splitter (at least that's how it was on the beemers) so this linkage is probably the logical next step. I prefer dual cables, and think it would work here also. But since it has this linkage already, I'll try to make it work. I like what buzzer did with his in the build forum.
kk - I agree - if it works, then why change? Change oil, fill the tank and go. I rode an R11S for several years, twenty years ago, and those bikes had a surging problem at low RPMs. I managed to get rid of it mostly till there was only the slightest hint of it left. It's a great bike, but I found more pleasure in the older bikes. Part of it is that adage: It's more fun riding a slow bike fast than a fast one slow. The R11S always felt slow until up into triple digits.
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The factory set up the entire assembly as a unit. Not to be messed with except for balance. Air screws for low RPM and linkage for high RPM balance. There is a bunch that can be done if the screw has NOT been messed with. Then more work if it has.
Go to Benders site, find the manual and the supplement and read up. Also go here for the quick and dirty real world setting up the bike including the TPS, screw and balance.
https://archive.guzzitech.com/EVTuneup-Jeff_B.html
And if you really want to read:
http://www.dpguzzi.com/efiman.pdf
Tom
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Thanks guys. I keep reading about the sacred screw and wonder what its function was. Since balancing can be done fairly easily I just wondered what more there was that could be done.
kk
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Wow, I started reading links to information regarding TB setup and looked up and couldn’t see.
Quite the mix of information and a tendency to over complicate.
There’s a reason for sacred screws but not as life ending as you might think, this includes some basics as to why you do what you do. There is a range something can operate in, stepper motors, bleed screws, etc.
As far as the TPS, some are fixed with no adjustment (I like these, keeps idle hands from playing with them). The ones you can adjust, as on my Stone, set to the recommended spec. Closed plate @150mv and you are done with bothering the TPS. The reason for the rest is to stay within an operating range as far as idle is concerned.
Here are two factory examples of the procedure, what MFG they reference doesn’t matter, they are examples.
1) set the throttle stop to zero then plus 1/8 turn. Freeze the idle control motor by grounding a test lead, set the bleed screw to get 750 RPM’s, remove test lead to return the idle motor to operation, done.
2) set throttle plate to zero then plus 1/4 turn, hook diagnostic tool and monitor stepper motor, adjust air bleed until stepper motor reads 8, done.
Both are just for idle control, TPS does not come into play.
The point of this is to help you understand one is not related to the other as far as TPS setting and idle setting.
Once you set the TPS forget it exists. The throttle stop is to get it in a range the air bleeds can operate and allow you to balance the two TB’s and set the idle speed.
The sacred screw on an MG, I would use a wire gauge on an unmolested TB and that would be my base adjustment.
Keep in mind once you open a throttle and let it fly closed repeatedly that factory flow tested, or however they do it, setting is out the window.
Clear as mud.
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I think it's starting to make sense. The instructions I've read say to twiddle this screw or that adjustment, but not what they're doing. And then we're not supposed to touch THAT screw or you'll be totally Fuuked.
So when I look for those screws on my bike - they're not there, or are different.
I've now boiled it down to what those screws do, so I can locate them on MY bike. Here's where I'm at:
1. Warm up engine and hook up manometer
2. Adjust bypass screws to 1 turn open
3, Rev to 2800
4. Adjust balance with the left Butterfly
5. At idle speed with linkage disconnected
6. Balance with idle stop screws.
At that point it gets into the TPS adjustment.
Frankly, I don't understand step 6. How is a throttle stop screw going to balance vacuum? The only things affecting vacuum are the butterfly opening and bypass screws, unless you're talking about balance as the throttle is opened. But balance has been set at 2800, and fiddling with linkage will affect that.
On a 'normal' engine (with carbs) it's synched at idle with mixture and speed adjustment, then at 2 or 3K with the cables or linkage. Setting the mid-range balance first makes no sense to me. But hey, what do I know? Perhaps the computer requires something different?
Thanks, Hat, for validating my idea of checking the 'sacred' right side butterfly with a pin gauge - and record that data in my notes for the bike. It would probably even help in setting up the left side throttle body.
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Maybe pictures will help. Just use the pics so you know what to look at. Then use Jeff B's very detailed and clear instructions.
http://www.bikeboy.org/tpssetting.html
Your 1-6 are sorta backwards and sideways.
IF your doing a complete from scratch setup. Backing out both idle stop screws as well as disconnecting the link bar and setting the TPS BASELINE is top of the list. Then set TPS with the idle stop screw, then leave that screw alone.
Tom
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I think it's starting to make sense. The instructions I've read say to twiddle this screw or that adjustment, but not what they're doing. And then we're not supposed to touch THAT screw or you'll be totally Fuuked.
So when I look for those screws on my bike - they're not there, or are different.
I've now boiled it down to what those screws do, so I can locate them on MY bike. Here's where I'm at:
1. Warm up engine and hook up manometer
2. Adjust bypass screws to 1 turn open
3, Rev to 2800
4. Adjust balance with the left Butterfly
5. At idle speed with linkage disconnected
6. Balance with idle stop screws.
At that point it gets into the TPS adjustment.
Frankly, I don't understand step 6. How is a throttle stop screw going to balance vacuum? The only things affecting vacuum are the butterfly opening and bypass screws, unless you're talking about balance as the throttle is opened. But balance has been set at 2800, and fiddling with linkage will affect that.
On a 'normal' engine (with carbs) it's synched at idle with mixture and speed adjustment, then at 2 or 3K with the cables or linkage. Setting the mid-range balance first makes no sense to me. But hey, what do I know? Perhaps the computer requires something different?
Thanks, Hat, for validating my idea of checking the 'sacred' right side butterfly with a pin gauge - and record that data in my notes for the bike. It would probably even help in setting up the left side throttle body.
Confusion with your steps.
Start with cleaned TB’s. You are backing off the left throttle stop to zero, plate is in contact with the TB bore. Now set your TPS using a multimeter to the recommended spec, 150 my. This sets the TPS and you are done with that.
Now adjust the throttle stop to the TPS reading, this is not adjusting the TPS it’s adjusting the throttle plate at idle. You are using the TPS reading as a reference for the plate position, it equates to a plate opening in degrees.
Then set the right per the instructions posted.
You balance the TB’s using the air bleeds for idle balance, the linkage screw adjustment for off idle balance.
Follow the instructions listed in the post above and you will get to where you need to be.
If the throttle plate stop screws are adjusted to open the plate too far or too little it can make the air bleeds ineffective. Open too far and you can close the air bleeds and not hit the idle spec, opposite also applies.
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Thanks guys! I'll have to go back over your instructions when I've got more time. But I REALLY appreciate the help! Right now they're giving me a headache. :-)
I don't do well with detailed instructions since, quite often, I find different and conflicting ways of interpreting them. I need to understand what is needed and why, then it all makes sense. You're getting me there. Thank you!
So, that brings me to the next problem - how to remove the tank. I can remove the fuel line from the petcock, unhook the electrical lead, the lead for the low fuel sensor has been disconnected so nothing to do there, unhook the vent line...
...which brings us to the fuel pump line. How to I take care of that one?
Once the tank is off I can remove the TBs, inspect/fix whatever, and move on to the tune-up part of the game.
You know, I tried just opening the throttle a little on cold startup and it worked just fine, so it appears the throttle lever on the left grip isn't totally necessary.
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On my tank the pressure regulator on the return line screws onto the tank, looks like yours is different from that.
The high idle lever is just that and you can ignore and just use throttle when starting. It does nothing as far as fuel enrichment is concerned, it just opens the throttle plates a little. I use the throttle and ignore the lever more often than not. just be sure it’s not messing with the throttle plates when in the off position, it could be a recipe for hair loss.
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There should be a screw to adjust the high idle lever.
Unless your tank and pump setup has been changed. You should have a manual or electric petcock and a return line to work on. The others are vents and drains. Don't mix up which wires go to the fuel level and the electric petcock.
Tom
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Tom - your bikeboy link was exactly what i needed. The photos showed my bike perfectly.
I pulled the left side TB and it looked good. What a miserable job pulling all that stuff apart! There must be an easier way to get those cables back on the
wheel under the center of the backbone. I removed the high idle mechanism and left it off. One less complication and something to deal with.
I set the TPS when the TB was off, but need to fiddle with it a little more. But I think I'm close. The bike runs better.
My next challenge is going to be reading the TPS while it's installed. I don't have a cable, just used two safety pins contacting the connections with the rubber insulator boot pulled back. I'm hoping that same technique works with the TB installed. The bike wasn't really well warmed up when making the adjustments and I ended up fiddling with the left idle stop a little at one point and shouldn't have. I was getting pretty frustrated about then - unknown was I'd neglected to tighten the right side TB rubber mounting tube. Later that night I had the thought those clamps were loose, so I went back out there and sure enough, they were loose. Have you ever had that happen - look back at the days work and realize something is incomplete or backwards or something?
Anyway, tightening those clamps, even though the TB fits pretty snug, did make a difference. A lot of difference actually. So I need to go back and recheck the TPS idle setting. I don't think it's very far off since it idles and runs well.
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If the ECU is easy access back probe the connector on it to avoid trying to fiddle with the TPS connector.
You can read the voltage there. Follow the instructions linked. You set the right side throttle stop with the air bleeds bottomed for setting idle balance. When you install the link arm on the left you might have to adjust so it drops on without moving the throttle plates. You’ll recheck at 2000 - 3000 RPM’s. Recheck the idle balance again, use the air bleeds to set the final idle and balance RPM’s. Once you get through it once it will all make sense.
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I do some of my best work when I am asleep. I don't know how many times I have awoken with the solution to a problem or a fabrication stumbling block.
kk
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Yeah, it's getting easier.
Hat - where are the wires at the ecu? I guess I could do a continuity and color check. Good idea! Thank you.
Tried to ride the bike yesterday and it ran like crap. Brought it back home and checked it over. The base TPS setting had changed. Once that was back where it's supposed to be, it ran ok again.
John Croucher said to check the Butterfly seals as he's found them installed backwards. I'm thinking that may be the case here since it idles slightly high even though I've set the TPS back to about 400mv and the air bleeds are completely closed.There's extra air coming in from somewhere! I've got new o-rings on the bleeds, and the rubber manifolds are fine. I had thought the left butterfly was floppy, but don't know what I was feeling because it's not loose at all.
Now that I'm more familiar with the system, I wish it had individual cables to each TB, and ditch that goofy linkage that takes up so much room. It's a lot of extra unneeded complexity as well.
It is getting easier and I don't even have to consult the notes anymore when adjusting the throttle bodies.
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At the ECU pin 1 yellow (can appear to be whitish), pin 11 black/violet.
Search Bassa prints on this site and you will find the print for your bike.
I agree, a Y splitter and a cable to each TB would have been easier. My RT was easy, a Guzzi GS911 would also be nice.
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Hat - When I take the voltage readings off my TPS - it's the two outside wires I tap into. The black/violet #11 is actually the middle of those two wires and gives me readings that go something like 5volts at idle. down to 100mv at full throttle. I tried tapping into the Violet (I think that's it) but a continuity check gives something like 15 or 20 ohm. And it doesn't read the same as plugging into the TPS.
Man! there sure are a lot of little wires plugged into one spacei!
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Pull the boot back on the TPS and check the colors on the two outside wires. That will be the colors you look for at the ECU. When you do a resistance test be sure both connectors are unplugged from the TPS and ECU otherwise you can get an inaccurate reading. Resistance tests aren’t my favorite but for this it’s the easier way.
The 3 pins at the ECU for the TPS are 1, 11, and 22. 22, violet, should be the 5 V reference from the ECU.
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You might try reading #8 again:
https://archive.guzzitech.com/EVTuneup-Jeff_B.html
Here is a Casper's break out cable (clicky the picy and then clicky the picy again to zoom in). Note the two outer wires are the ones to connect to. They are purple and purple/black. IIRR the cable has the same colors as the Guzzi TPS harness. Hook the meter up backwards, the reading will go to minus instead of plus. TPS should read about .5V or 500mV with throttle off and TB's set correctly. Then as you rotate the throttle it will read up to about 4.8V or so for W/O.
(https://i.ibb.co/NYRp7mt/casper-TPS-cable.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NYRp7mt)
If you plan to work on the bike, I would grab the Casper's cable. Much easier than pins in the connector.
Tom
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I went out to my bike and checked the TPS wiring. The violet and violet/black are the outside wires.
The yellow wire is in the center and is the 5 volt reference from the ECU. The violet ground signal splits off for the TPS, engine temp sensor and air temp sensor. Violet/black is the signal return to the ECU. Thanks to TOM H for correcting. I went off the print layout and that was a mistake.
You noted you did a resistance test, I think, on the violet wire and came up with 20 ohms or so. This is a common ground signal for 3 sensors so you might want to put a little weight on checking that wire to be sure it is ok. I did a resistance test on the violet/black .4 ohms and the violet .2 ohms. If there is a fault in that wire it can skew three sensor readings. I would ohm all three wires from the TPS to be sure they are ok.
This is the partial print I was using, the TPS has the lettering CAB for the terminals, bottom of print.
(https://i.ibb.co/sR50tWy/D9553878-FB0-A-451-A-A803-7-B7451513291.png) (https://ibb.co/sR50tWy)
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Huzo knows quite a bit about that. He made something for getting it back in range after someone moved it
There’s others of course but he may be the most recent . Maybe when he comes in from the heat…
https://youtube.com/shorts/NGHMAry4iks?si=fADX7GyI54bvRP9S
https://youtube.com/shorts/hvYAoeYDLN0?si=BDSSJPklBvHKrQdX
I later put some red dye in the water for better visibility.
https://youtube.com/shorts/zZlspieRKUE?si=bTvwlINP_OuY_AH0
As the compressor loads the reservoir, it bleeds out through the TB and the reducing pressure is recorded on the manometer.
My reasoning is, that a correct un molested TB will dump a given amount of air in a given time, say 20 seconds.
A molested one will have a different dump time due to the greater or lesser aperture.
What I do is record the time for a known good TB and manipulate the molested one to the same dump time.
When I can match the molested one with the known good one by manipulation of the Sacred Screw, I then have an equal flow rate, as indicated by the equal dump time.
This is all done with the air bleed closed.
Then re fit the TB’s and do a TPS reset on Guzzidiag.
The right side is then balanced by the APPROPRIATE adjustment screw on the LEFT TB.
NOT THE BELLCRANK CROSSOVER ROD…!
This procedure is done with the engine running and a manometer hooked to both TB’s.
The idle balance is achieved by opening the idle bleed on the side with the HIGHEST reading.
Idle speed is achieved by the stepper motor which is commanded by the ECU and has a target value of 1100-1150 rpm hard coded in…
My bike is a Norge and I only know about it.
The SS is on the left throttle body and it sets the position of the butterfly @ idle, at this position the TB will flow the amount of air specified ex factory.
When things are right, this setting is recognised as a TPS setting of 4.6-4.7
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Huzo, The TB setups are different. Simular, but the linkages are different and there is no TPS reset in the ECU. The EV's had a TPS that was adjustable, you can loosen the securing screws and turn the TPS. Norge/Stelvio, not adjustable.
BTW: Nice work on the test rig!
Thank you!
Tom
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Huzo, The TB setups are different. Simular, but the linkages are different and there is no TPS reset in the ECU. The EV's had a TPS that was adjustable, you can loosen the securing screws and turn the TPS. Norge/Stelvio, not adjustable.
BTW: Nice work on the test rig!
Thank you!
Tom
No worries.
I knew they were different, but not where and how.
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Much food for thought! Thank you guys.
The idea of the sacred screw had me afraid to touch anything - but once I had the right video/instructions it wasn't too bad. No sacred screws on this bike. I think this is the newest Guzzi I want to fool with - unless I convert back to carbs. And I may just do that. The earlier carb bikes are sooooo much simpler!
I actually find it pretty easy pulling back the TPS connection and inserting two safety pins in the outer terminals, then reading the Mv from there. However, I'll give it another try with 11 and 22 at the ECU.
The last time I adjusted the TPS, I backed it down to about 425 mv to bring the idle down. It runs well, but pops sometimes at low RPMs when backing off, or even a steady throttle. But mostly it's running better and runs strong too. Since the intake manifolds look good, it's got new bypass o-rings, so I'm thinking the butterfly seals are the next to inspect. It's getting too much air.
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Run it at night, seriously, that’s how I found my cracked intake boot. It would backfire and I could see a flame at the boot at the edge of the clamp. The boots are stiff and I couldn’t see the crack, once removed the left boot was split half its circumference right at the edge of the clamp.
Be sure to first set the TPS with the linkage off and the left throttle stop screw backed off, 150 mv, this sets the stage for the rest of the adjustments and is very important.
You can also spray some brake clean around the TB, injector and boots, listen for an RPM bump.
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Intake boots replacements a couple of years ago, but check it out ...
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T It runs well, but pops sometimes at low RPMs when backing off, or even a steady throttle. But mostly it's running better and runs strong too.
During your tune up did you do any adjustments at the trim pot in back of the computer?
Can affect mix, noticed especially when decelerating.
If you do want to adjust it ask the board first for tips.
Edit: Vagrants post below mine is correct. Different computer.
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During your tune up did you do any adjustments at the trim pot in back of the computer?
Can affect mix, noticed especially when decelerating.
If you do want to adjust it ask the board first for tips.
That's on the 98.His trim needs Guzzi dia for adjustment/ FWIW, my 2001 needed +30 on the trim and would still pop on rare occasions. FYI, the balance needs to be perfect.
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I don't have guzzi diag, so that's not possible currently. When I adjusted the base setting of 150 mv, I couldn't get it set to exactly 150. It was like five or six mv plus or minus. Will that little bit make a difference? If so, how the heck do you get it to not move when tightening the fasteners?
Thanks for the tip, hat. I don't ride at night so don't think about stuff like that, but will do. Right now, forget it! It's too fricken cold!!!
Another question - that red light near the ECU - where do I get the data on that?
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You should be fine being off a couple mv at base, meter accuracy also comes into play but I wouldn’t sweat it.
No idea about the red light.
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I just want to know for sure which ECU is in this Bassa. 15M mounted under the LH side cover or the P8 mounted on the fender under the drivers seat?
Makes a bit of a difference on tuning.
150mV +/- 5 no problem.
Tom
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Yup, 15M behind the left side cover.
Good - I won't worry about not getting the base setting exactly right.
Thanks for the new intake rubbers Norm. They still look good.
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Sean Fader had the bike in the shop in Orange County to do a clutch, and I told him anything he thought should be upgraded while it was there just go ahead and do it. Off the top of my head that included the intake rubbers, some seals, bearings in the transmission, drive line, etc.
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15M, good.
Just to be clear.......
The 150mV is with the tie rod between the 2 TB's disconnected and the idle stop screw fully backed out on the LH TB.
Once TPS is set to 150mV or as very close as you can (145, 155 is good enough). Turn in the idle stop screw until you get a TPS reading of about 525mV. Now leave the LH TB and TPS alone.
Make sure air bleed screws are closed.
Then follow instructions for the RH TB and balancing.
Tom
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Today I got around to pulling the throttle bodies. Good thing too - as John warned, the seals were installed backwards. Cleaned everything in pinesol and re-assembled. One of the seals was damaged, but n, one in town to be found anywhere in a 60 mile radius. One report is they're going to be discontinued.
And they're not $3 anymore - list is $9, but that doesn't stop shops from charging ten or eleven for them - not that they even have them. On line they can be found cheaper, but with $9 shipping it's a wash whether to drive to the Yamaha shop a week later or pay the shipping.
The Throttle bodies weren't at all carboned up and that made it easier. I installed new 2mm cross section orings - 4mm inside, 8mm ouitside on the bleed screws. The old ones didn't look too hot, not sure if that'll make any difference though.
Another thing that might make a difference is the finishing work on the throttle bodies was terrible - as in - nonexistent.They were anodized, but the sealing edges still had casting lines that took quite a bit to smooth, plus casting imperfections all along the sealing edges. I worked them over pretty good and wound up without a lot of anodized surface.
One of the butterfly shaft seals was damaged and that's how I know they're not available - I was trying to find one locally. When I couldn't find one, I built up the damaged lip with silicone sealer and put it back together. In the end, I could have left it alone, or even left it out, since there's a metal cap sealing that end off completely. No air leaks there, no way, now how!
While looking around I noticed that injectors at Harpers are three or four hundred bucks. Seems crazy to me - these FI systems are way more expensive than carburetors and a lot more trouble - unless they're working. And the seals - yeow! Carburetors are making more sense all the time.
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There is a place I think in Texas called injectorex or something like that. Also a place in Torrance, Ca. that fixes them. I;d need to look it i=up on who it is.
If there is a P/n on the injector, try the bay of fleas for a matching one.
Tom