[Wirespokes] has my old Bassa - Please support him

[Shiny Hat]

Thanks, John. Sounds like we're on the same page.

Hat - in this case, it's quite possible the sensors never did give the correct data to the computer. I'll check it out and go from there. I'm like 25 years behind the times, but hey - I'm into old stuff so that's how it goes. i tried to stay away from FI bikes for the last 20 years after riding an R11S for several. I've found the older technology to be more robust, simpler, better economy and not lacking in power. It's a little more fiddly, but I prefer the trade-off, and besides, I can optimize the older stuff myself whereas the newer stuff is built to be untouchable. I'm still debating whether to convert this thing to 40mm carbs and ditch the pump and other complexities. These older bikes are now going pretty cheap so it's difficult to ignore them - and here I am.

What’s a carb or that thing they call points?
I’m the opposite, I’d take FI over those other things. Well most, not including D jetronic or CIS. Well ok, maybe more versions due to growing pains.
I do understand your reasoning due to familiarity.
I picked up a 2003 stone that sat for 6 years with a tank half filled with water and the other half was everything besides gasoline. Cleaned the tank, new fuel filter, hit the starter and fired right up.
Give it a chance, not good, switch to carbs.

[johnwesley]

The 03 ev I bought had the same problem. He bought it new and the dealers never could fix the issue. He would get milage in the 20’s. Tried every trick in the book including the brass base for the engine temp sensor instead of the plastic one. He eventually went to an ecu from the vintage and that seemed to fix the issues. I would assume it was in the ecu since all sensors were replaced and verified to be in proper working order. Odd thing and it was the only one I’d heard of until this thread.

[normzone]

To add mystery, the bike got 40+ MPG on the highway when I first got it, but gradually declined to the mid twenties despite a tuneup from Sean Fader and my efforts based on the forum members counsel.

[wirespokes]

Norm - I tried to lift off the tank yesterday and almost succeeded. Disconnected the fuel line at the tap, unplugged one connection, disconnected the vent line, but then there was still a line from the pump. Time for dinner and put it all back together. The right side throttle didn't want to spring back closed so needed to clean and access the pivot points - and of course, that requires tank removal. Had the bike all this time and hadn't pulled the tank yet - it's the longest I've ever had a bike and not done that. i much prefer the earlier bikes - remove fuel lines at the petcocks and lift the tank off.

Anyway, when the tank was tilted up i noticed the temp sensor was disconnected so plugged it back in. Thanks for answering the question. :-)

I feel a lot of play at the left side butterfly like the shaft bushings must be worn. Probably need to remove it for a good look.

My friend in LA repairs appliances and won't have anything to do with any made in Italy. Says they're overly complex and he can't warranty them. I was thinking of him while confronting this fuel injection system. Sure, they're nice when they work, but when they don't they can be a nightmare to sort out. So I was looking at the complex linkage to open two butterflies and wondering why two cables, one to each throttle body, wouldn't work. Why all this complex linkage? All because of the cold start idle advance? And why is that necessary? Can't one just open the throttle a little? Maybe not. And then there's the second throttle cable keeping tension on the linkage.

And I look at all that stuff packed under the tank - and still it holds a gallon less than my LM and gets five to ten miles worse economy. Is this really an advanced technology?

Since these are 40mm throttle bodies, will a 40mm Dellorto mount to the rubber spigots? Anyone ever tried? It just seems so much simpler to mount some carbs, replace the throttle with a dual pull Tomaselli, get rid of the fuel pump, giant fuel filter and that complex throttle linkage. I'm seriously spoiled by the earlier bikes - I prefer simplicity, especially when it comes to troubleshooting.

I'm seriously considering the change, but in the meantime I'll see if I can't get it sorted. It runs well enough, but it doesn't have that turbine-like feel of my other bikes. There's a roughness to it that needs tuning. And I know it can get better mileage.

[Tom H]

If the Bassa is like my EVT, there is a pull throttle cable and a return cable. If the throttle ever gets stuck, you can twist the grip to the off position.

All that fancy linkage between the TB's is there to keep the TB's in factory sync and keep them working as the factory intended. Unless you know what your doing, best not to mess with them. Or do some reading on how it works first.

Tom

PS: have fun with the ummm...."quick disconnect". What a false name if I ever heard one.  I believe the Bassa has the electric petcock. Sorry for the confusion.

[Moparnut72]

I may be all wet but it seems to me that FI has gone through transition periods since it has come to motorcycles. I had a 2006 Harley with FI, the first year on Softails. The bike was lost in a fire so I replaced it with a brand new 2017, also a Softail. It had low rpm surging which drove me nuts probably due to transitioning from open loop to closed loop and vice versa. The 2006 didn't have this setup and ran on set values. My 2016 1400 Audace had similar issues like the Harley but not as bad. I think the newer bikes have had these issues worked out. My 2019 V7 runs perfectly as does my V100 but that was helped by water cooling. I would not go back to carbs even though they are easy to service and tune now that run ability with FI has been improved substantially.
kk

[normzone]

Do not try to tinker with the FI until you have read thoroughly on this forum regarding "the sacred screw" and the yellow paint - it's possible to jack the system up such that you're unlikely to ever get it back where it's supposed to be - at least that is how the cautions read.

I took a trawl through my old bookmarks - no clear answers for you here but some good clues to follow up on ...

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=115161.0

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=69168.0

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=96957.0

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=119140.0

[Moparnut72]

The sacred screw gets brought up constantly. What exactly is it used for and what will it do if messed with?
kk

[John A]

The sacred screw gets brought up constantly. What exactly is it used for and what will it do if messed with?
kk

Huzo knows quite a bit about that. He made something for getting it back in range after someone moved it
There’s others of course but he may be the most recent . Maybe when he comes in from the heat…

[wirespokes]

The sacred screw, as far as I've learned, is a factory setting for the right throttle body butterfly. It was set on a flow bench, and is a datum for the computer. Whenever I have the TBs off, I'll take a measurement with a pin gauge to record how far the butterfly is open.

Well, yeah, Norm, it's taken me this long to get some basic idea how to sync the throttle bodies. That sacred screw really concerned me. It does run now - I don't want to cripple it and make it unrideable. Thanks for the links - I'll check them out.

Tom - I don't get it. We still have to balance the throttle bodies, so why not have a cable to each? I know, there was a move away from dual cables to a splitter (at least that's how it was on the beemers) so this linkage is probably the logical next step.  I prefer dual cables, and think it would work here also. But since it has this linkage already, I'll try to make it work. I like what buzzer did with his in the build forum.

kk - I agree - if it works, then why change? Change oil, fill the tank and go. I rode an R11S for several years, twenty years ago, and those bikes had a surging problem at low RPMs. I managed to get rid of it mostly till there was only the slightest hint of it left. It's a great bike, but I found more pleasure in the older bikes. Part of it is that adage: It's more fun riding a slow bike fast than a fast one slow. The R11S always felt slow until up into triple digits.

[Tom H]

The factory set up the entire assembly as a unit. Not to be messed with except for balance. Air screws for low RPM and linkage for high RPM balance. There is a bunch that can be done if the screw has NOT been messed with. Then more work if it has.

Go to Benders site, find the manual and the supplement and read up. Also go here for the quick and dirty real world setting up the bike including the TPS, screw and balance.

https://archive.guzzitech.com/EVTuneup-Jeff_B.html

And if you really want to read:
http://www.dpguzzi.com/efiman.pdf

 Tom

[Moparnut72]

Thanks guys. I keep reading about the sacred screw and wonder what its function was. Since balancing can be done fairly easily I just wondered what more there was that could be done.
kk

[Shiny Hat]

Wow, I started reading links to information regarding TB setup and looked up and couldn’t see.
Quite the mix of information and a tendency to over complicate.

There’s a reason for sacred screws but not as life ending as you might think, this includes some basics as to why you do what you do. There is a range something can operate in, stepper motors, bleed screws, etc.
As far as the TPS, some are fixed with no adjustment (I like these, keeps idle hands from playing with them). The ones you can adjust, as on my Stone, set to the recommended spec. Closed plate @150mv and you are done with bothering the TPS. The reason for the rest is to stay within an operating range as far as idle is concerned.

Here are two factory examples of the procedure, what MFG they reference doesn’t matter, they are examples.
1) set the throttle stop to zero then plus 1/8 turn. Freeze the idle control motor by grounding a test lead, set the bleed screw to get 750 RPM’s, remove test lead to return the idle motor to operation, done.
2) set throttle plate to zero then plus 1/4 turn, hook diagnostic tool and monitor stepper motor, adjust air bleed until stepper motor reads 8, done.
Both are just for idle control, TPS does not come into play.

The point of this is to help you understand one is not related to the other as far as TPS setting and idle setting.
Once you set the TPS forget it exists. The throttle stop is to get it in a range the air bleeds can operate and allow you to balance the two TB’s and set the idle speed.
The sacred screw on an MG, I would use a wire gauge on an unmolested TB and that would be my base adjustment.
Keep in mind once you open a throttle and let it fly closed repeatedly that factory flow tested, or however they do it, setting is out the window.

Clear as mud.

[wirespokes]

I think it's starting to make sense. The instructions I've read say to twiddle this screw or that adjustment, but not what they're doing. And then we're not supposed to touch THAT screw or you'll be totally Fuuked.

So when I look for those screws on my bike - they're not there, or are different.

I've now boiled it down to what those screws do, so I can locate them on MY bike. Here's where I'm at:

1. Warm up engine and hook up manometer
2. Adjust bypass screws to 1 turn open
3, Rev to 2800
4. Adjust balance with the left Butterfly
5. At idle speed with linkage disconnected
6. Balance with idle stop screws.

At that point it gets into the TPS adjustment.

Frankly, I don't understand step 6. How is a throttle stop screw going to balance vacuum? The only things affecting vacuum are the butterfly opening and bypass screws, unless you're talking about balance as the throttle is opened. But balance has been set at 2800, and fiddling with linkage will affect that.

On a 'normal' engine (with carbs) it's synched at idle with mixture and speed adjustment, then at 2 or 3K with the cables or linkage. Setting the mid-range balance first makes no sense to me. But hey, what do I know? Perhaps the computer requires something different?

Thanks, Hat, for validating my idea of checking the 'sacred' right side butterfly with a pin gauge - and record that data in my notes for the bike. It would probably even help in setting up the left side throttle body.

[Tom H]

Maybe pictures will help. Just use the pics so you know what to look at. Then use Jeff B's very detailed and clear instructions.

http://www.bikeboy.org/tpssetting.html

Your 1-6 are sorta backwards and sideways.

IF your doing a complete from scratch setup. Backing out both idle stop screws as well as disconnecting the link bar and setting the TPS BASELINE is top of the list. Then set TPS with the idle stop screw, then leave that screw alone.

Tom

[Shiny Hat]

I think it's starting to make sense. The instructions I've read say to twiddle this screw or that adjustment, but not what they're doing. And then we're not supposed to touch THAT screw or you'll be totally Fuuked.

So when I look for those screws on my bike - they're not there, or are different.

I've now boiled it down to what those screws do, so I can locate them on MY bike. Here's where I'm at:

1. Warm up engine and hook up manometer
2. Adjust bypass screws to 1 turn open
3, Rev to 2800
4. Adjust balance with the left Butterfly
5. At idle speed with linkage disconnected
6. Balance with idle stop screws.

At that point it gets into the TPS adjustment.

Frankly, I don't understand step 6. How is a throttle stop screw going to balance vacuum? The only things affecting vacuum are the butterfly opening and bypass screws, unless you're talking about balance as the throttle is opened. But balance has been set at 2800, and fiddling with linkage will affect that.

On a 'normal' engine (with carbs) it's synched at idle with mixture and speed adjustment, then at 2 or 3K with the cables or linkage. Setting the mid-range balance first makes no sense to me. But hey, what do I know? Perhaps the computer requires something different?

Thanks, Hat, for validating my idea of checking the 'sacred' right side butterfly with a pin gauge - and record that data in my notes for the bike. It would probably even help in setting up the left side throttle body.

Confusion with your steps.
Start with cleaned TB’s. You are backing off the left throttle stop to zero, plate is in contact with the TB bore. Now set your TPS  using a multimeter to the recommended spec, 150 my. This sets the TPS and you are done with that.
Now adjust the throttle stop to the TPS reading, this is not adjusting the TPS it’s adjusting the throttle plate at idle. You are using the TPS reading as a reference for the plate position, it equates to a plate opening in degrees.
Then set the right per the instructions posted.
You balance the TB’s using the air bleeds for idle balance, the linkage screw adjustment for off idle balance.

Follow the instructions listed in the post above and you will get to where you need to be.

If the throttle plate stop screws are adjusted to open the plate too far or too little it can make the air bleeds ineffective. Open too far and you can close the air bleeds and not hit the idle spec, opposite also applies.

[wirespokes]

Thanks guys! I'll have to go back over your instructions when I've got more time. But I REALLY appreciate the help! Right now they're giving me a headache. :-)

I don't do well with detailed instructions since, quite often, I find different and conflicting ways of interpreting them. I need to understand what is needed and why, then it all makes sense. You're getting me there. Thank you!

So, that brings me to the next problem - how to remove the tank. I can remove the fuel line from the petcock, unhook the electrical lead, the lead for the low fuel sensor has been disconnected so nothing to do there, unhook the vent line...

...which brings us to the fuel pump line. How to I take care of that one?

Once the tank is off I can remove the TBs, inspect/fix whatever, and move on to the tune-up part of the game.

You know, I tried just opening the throttle a little on cold startup and it worked just fine, so it appears the throttle lever on the left grip isn't totally necessary.

[Shiny Hat]

On my tank the pressure regulator on the return line screws onto the tank, looks like yours is different from that.
The high idle lever is just that and you can ignore and just use throttle when starting. It does nothing as far as fuel enrichment is concerned, it just opens the throttle plates a little. I use the throttle and ignore the lever more often than not. just be sure it’s not messing with the throttle plates when in the off position, it could be a recipe for hair loss.

[Tom H]

There should be a screw to adjust the high idle lever.

Unless your tank and pump setup has been changed. You should have a manual or electric petcock and a return line to work on. The others are vents and drains. Don't mix up which wires go to the fuel level and the electric petcock.

Tom

[wirespokes]

Tom - your bikeboy link was exactly what i needed. The photos showed my bike perfectly.

I pulled the left side TB and it looked good. What a miserable job pulling all that stuff apart! There must be an easier way to get those cables back on the
wheel under the center of the backbone. I removed the high idle mechanism and left it off. One less complication and something to deal with.

I set the TPS when the TB was off, but need to fiddle with it a little more. But I think I'm close. The bike runs better.

My next challenge is going to be reading the TPS while it's installed. I don't have a cable, just used two safety pins contacting the connections with the rubber insulator boot pulled back. I'm hoping that same technique works with the TB installed. The bike wasn't really well warmed up when making the adjustments and I ended up fiddling with the left idle stop a little at one point and shouldn't have. I was getting pretty frustrated about then - unknown was I'd neglected to tighten the right side TB rubber mounting tube. Later that night I had the thought those clamps were loose, so I went back out there and sure enough, they were loose. Have you ever had that happen - look back at the days work and realize something is incomplete or backwards or something?

Anyway, tightening those clamps, even though the TB fits pretty snug, did make a difference. A lot of difference actually. So I need to go back and recheck the TPS idle setting. I don't think it's very far off since it idles and runs well.

[Shiny Hat]

If the ECU is easy access back probe the connector on it to avoid trying to fiddle with the TPS connector.
You can read the voltage there. Follow the instructions linked. You set the right side throttle stop with the air bleeds bottomed for setting idle balance. When you install the link arm on the left you might have to adjust so it drops on without moving the throttle plates. You’ll recheck at 2000 - 3000 RPM’s. Recheck the idle balance again, use the air bleeds to set the final idle and balance RPM’s. Once you get through it once it will all make sense.

[Moparnut72]

I do some of my best work when I am asleep. I don't know how many times I have awoken with the solution to a problem or a fabrication stumbling block.
kk

[wirespokes]

Yeah, it's getting easier.

Hat - where are the wires at the ecu? I guess I could do a continuity and color check. Good idea! Thank you.

Tried to ride the bike yesterday and it ran like crap. Brought it back home and checked it over. The base TPS setting had changed. Once that was back where it's supposed to be, it ran ok again.

John Croucher said to check the Butterfly seals as he's found them installed backwards. I'm thinking that may be the case here since it idles slightly high even though I've set the TPS back to about 400mv and the air bleeds are completely closed.There's extra air coming in from somewhere! I've got new o-rings on the bleeds, and the rubber manifolds are fine. I had thought the left butterfly was floppy, but don't know what I was feeling because it's not loose at all.

Now that I'm more familiar with the system, I wish it had individual cables to each TB, and ditch that goofy linkage that takes up so much room. It's a lot of extra unneeded complexity as well.

It is getting easier and I don't even have to consult the notes anymore when adjusting the throttle bodies.

[Shiny Hat]

At the ECU pin 1 yellow (can appear to be whitish), pin 11 black/violet.
Search Bassa prints on this site and you will find the print for your bike.

I agree, a Y splitter and a cable to each TB would have been easier. My RT was easy, a Guzzi GS911 would also be nice.

[wirespokes]

Hat - When I take the voltage readings off my TPS - it's the two outside wires I tap into. The black/violet #11 is actually the middle of those two wires and gives me readings that go something like 5volts at idle. down to 100mv at full throttle. I tried tapping into the Violet (I think that's it) but a continuity check gives something like 15 or 20 ohm. And it doesn't read the same as plugging into the TPS.

Man! there sure are a lot of little wires plugged into one spacei!

[Shiny Hat]

Pull the boot back on the TPS and check the colors on the two outside wires. That will be the colors you look for at the ECU. When you do a resistance test be sure both connectors are unplugged from the TPS and ECU otherwise you can get an inaccurate reading. Resistance tests aren’t my favorite but for this it’s the easier way.
The 3 pins at the ECU for the TPS are 1, 11, and 22. 22, violet, should be the 5 V reference from the ECU.

[Tom H]

You might try reading #8 again:
https://archive.guzzitech.com/EVTuneup-Jeff_B.html

Here is a Casper's break out cable (clicky the picy and then clicky the picy again to zoom in). Note the two outer wires are the ones to connect to. They are purple and purple/black. IIRR the cable has the same colors as the Guzzi TPS harness. Hook the meter up backwards, the reading will go to minus instead of plus. TPS should read about .5V or 500mV with throttle off and TB's set correctly. Then as you rotate the throttle it will read up to about 4.8V or so for W/O.




If you plan to work on the bike, I would grab the Casper's cable. Much easier than pins in the connector.

Tom

[Shiny Hat]

I went out to my bike and checked the TPS wiring. The violet and violet/black are the outside wires.
The yellow wire is in the center and is the 5 volt reference from the ECU. The violet ground signal splits off for the TPS, engine temp sensor and air temp sensor. Violet/black is the signal return to the ECU. Thanks to TOM H for correcting. I went off the print layout and that was a mistake.
You noted you did a resistance test, I think, on the violet wire and came up with 20 ohms or so. This is a common ground signal for 3 sensors so you might want to put a little weight on checking that wire to be sure it is ok. I did a resistance test on the violet/black .4 ohms and the violet .2 ohms. If there is a fault in that wire it can skew three sensor readings. I would ohm all three wires from the TPS to be sure they are ok.
This is the partial print I was using, the TPS has the lettering CAB for the terminals, bottom of print.

[Huzo]

Huzo knows quite a bit about that. He made something for getting it back in range after someone moved it
There’s others of course but he may be the most recent . Maybe when he comes in from the heat…

https://youtube.com/shorts/NGHMAry4iks?si=fADX7GyI54bvRP9S

https://youtube.com/shorts/hvYAoeYDLN0?si=BDSSJPklBvHKrQdX
I later put some red dye in the water for better visibility.

https://youtube.com/shorts/zZlspieRKUE?si=bTvwlINP_OuY_AH0

As the compressor loads the reservoir, it bleeds out through the TB and the reducing pressure is recorded on the manometer.
My reasoning is, that a correct un molested TB will dump a given amount of air in a given time, say 20 seconds.
A molested one will have a different dump time due to the greater or lesser aperture.
What I do is record the time for a known good TB and manipulate the molested one to the same dump time.
When I can match the molested one with the known good one by manipulation of the Sacred Screw, I then have an equal flow rate, as indicated by the equal dump time.
This is all done with the air bleed closed.
Then re fit the TB’s and do a TPS reset on Guzzidiag.
The right side is then balanced by the APPROPRIATE adjustment screw on the LEFT TB.
NOT THE BELLCRANK CROSSOVER ROD…!
This procedure is done with the engine running and a manometer hooked to both TB’s.
The idle balance is achieved by opening the idle bleed on the side with the HIGHEST reading.
Idle speed is achieved by the stepper motor which is commanded by the ECU and has a target value of 1100-1150 rpm hard coded in…
My bike is a Norge and I only know about it.
The SS is on the left throttle body and it sets the position of the butterfly @ idle, at this position the TB will flow the amount of air specified ex factory.
When things are right, this setting is recognised as a TPS setting of 4.6-4.7

[Tom H]

Huzo, The TB setups are different. Simular, but the linkages are different and there is no TPS reset in the ECU. The EV's had a TPS that was adjustable, you can loosen the securing screws and turn the TPS.  Norge/Stelvio, not adjustable.

BTW: Nice work on the test rig!

Thank you!
Tom