Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Guzzi-Guy on September 03, 2013, 06:45:05 AM
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It was revealed!! http://www.gizmag.com/harley-davidson-500cc-learner-bike-electric/28903/?utm_source=Gizmag+Subscribers&utm_campaign=9a3eea9c88-UA-2235360-4&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_65b67362bd-9a3eea9c88-89865682 (http://www.gizmag.com/harley-davidson-500cc-learner-bike-electric/28903/?utm_source=Gizmag+Subscribers&utm_campaign=9a3eea9c88-UA-2235360-4&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_65b67362bd-9a3eea9c88-89865682)
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http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-news-new-bikes/electric-harley-production-bike/25156.html
*added context to subject line -R59
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Awesome looking bike. It's been hitting all the forums today.
I hope it's real... ;-T
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How many watts does the audio system need to make the typical flatulence noise.
~;
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Nah the noise will be a "green" design...playing cards on the spokes
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Looks like it might be true... Harley just released this teaser, with a date for tomorrow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7u9DTfE14M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7u9DTfE14M)
INNNNNteresting...
-Joe
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Kinda looks like a Griso. Good for Harley. I hope they make it and I hope it's the best electric bike on the market. I don't think it's ugly as I do with most electric bike concepts.
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Look here is the chopper version being tested
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDTzljq-uxM
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I confident electric bikes are a building force. In 10 years I wouldn't be surprised to see electric bikes making up 20% or more of the new bike market.
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Looks pretty good, neat concept. Harley might have the production force to make something like this affordable.
Wouldn't mind seeing it with a V-rod engine or warmed up version of their 750cc liquid cooled engine.
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I don't have any interesting comments.
Lannis (yes, I know ... "so no change there, then ... :D )
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Electric bikes - a great idea for riders with a set commute length. Useless for a typical long distance Guzzi rider. Let the flames begin!
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Will it leak voltage instead of oil?
And it needs one of these: http://www.soundracer.se/?p=98
Ken
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Can't be a real Harley if it doesn't emit loud wet fart sounds!
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Shocking, just shocking. Will it have a solid state music device that goes, "potato potato potato," when you ride it?
Will it be able to properly roar when you blip the throttle at stoplights?
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Lot more
pics renderings here: http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/harley-davidson-livewire-photos/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+AsphaltandRubber+%28Asphalt+%26+Rubber%29
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Lots of production looking parts on it..
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Now the local bars will need to install charging stations for meeting the needs of "rides".
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Count me in as one who would want that. ;-T
-AJ
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Here's the announcement:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/harley-davidson-introduces-electric-motorcycle-24207699 (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/harley-davidson-introduces-electric-motorcycle-24207699)
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The article claims 130 mile range. That's pretty impressive!
edit: Other articles are claiming 53 mile range. That would make a big difference!
Still, great looking concept from HD !!!
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Livewire Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6F8O5A__Ds
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If electrics are going to take off, a market leader like HD provides one helluva boost! Glad to see this is happening.
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I must say that I am far from a harley fan but this is one good looking bike. I also like that a major mfg is trying out something that is a relatively new idea/ market. H-D will hopefully bring more attention to electric bikes therefore the demand for more efficient/ longer range and more powerful bikes will come about. I seen a article about this bike this morning over on the selvage yard. http://selvedgeyard.com/2014/06/19/harley-davidsons-innovative-bike-reveal-the-project-livewire-experience-tour/
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Electric is the future of motorcycling..... no doubt!!
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Electric bikes - a great idea for riders with a set commute length. Useless for a typical long distance Guzzi rider. Let the flames begin!
:+1 ;-T
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I wonder where Harley acquired this technology? One of the local guys purchased a Zero and rode it dinner on Tuesday. I have to wonder if the guts of this thing came from Zero.
I like the cafe styling, very clean. Would be kewl if a new XLCR was based on this look.
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I like it. But Harley didn't know how to sell Buells, and they made noise. But good for them for being the first major brand to enter the electric world.
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Insider report and pics here:
http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php?topic=93474.new;boardseen#new (http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php?topic=93474.new;boardseen#new)
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I think I saw that an electric bike set a new lap record at IOM too.
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Electric Glide
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Has anyone seen dates and stops for the LiveWire tour? I'd love to throw my leg across one.
Don't think I'd ever trade the Griso for it, but it would be fun for short hops.
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Well, at least, they are now making a "Motor"Cycle.
Bare
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Harley-Davidson LiveWire Electric Motorcycle – First Ride: http://tinyurl.com/HDlivewire (http://tinyurl.com/HDlivewire)
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humm........wonder where all the noise will be ???
http://project.harley-davidson.com/en_US
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I have owned a few Harleys and own a Fat Bob currently and their sound is one of the reasons people buy them(myself included) but many are just too loud. Now a silent H-D? I think that that would be cool as well--and the bike looks good too--but how much and how long can it go before it stops?
So far electric bikes just cost too much and don't get you very far.
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I just merged two more threads into the original.
How many more new "Electric Harley" threads do you think will be posted?
LOL...
:beat_horse
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I just merged two more threads into the original.
How many more new "Electric Harley" threads do you think will be posted?
LOL...
:beat_horse
Vegas says bet 100 to win 130 on over 5. ;D
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I just merged two more threads into the original.
How many more new "Electric Harley" threads do you think will be posted?
LOL...
:beat_horse
..... and the thread subject will be "Wow, look at THIS!"
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I think its one of the better looking e-bikes and I hope HD goes forward with production.
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I give it ;-T Hope electric modes of transportation make a huge leap forward!!
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This is what the Harley will sound like/
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a14_1403228003 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a14_1403228003)
From the user comments
"You think Harley will still be able to build an electric bike that leaks oil."
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This is what the Harley will sound like/
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a14_1403228003 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a14_1403228003)
From the user comments
"You think Harley will still be able to build an electric bike that leaks oil."
LOL! Good one! ;-T
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So Harley is building a Griso that sounds like a private jet and never needs gasoline. I am impressed, even with the minuscule range.
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I just test rode one today, and I must say it's pretty cool. They have an engineer on hard who asks for feedback after the ride, and here's the story I heard from another employee:
They will not be building this bike as it sits. They are getting feedback from riders on what they like and don't like about it, and will design a new bike based on that. It may have a completely different motor and battery system, and maybe they won't ever build a version of these. The current bike has a lithium ion battery and has a 3 phase AC motor with a single speed tranny.
Pics and vids to follow later tonight.
Ken
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The recent edition of "Time" had an interesting article on LiveWire as well as comments from HD personnel on what they're doing to improve operations.
http://time.com/2899493/harley-davidsons-livewire-goes-electric/
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:beat_horse I've heard all this crap since 1973 and no one has actually built an electric vehicle that was for the masses and did it successfully. EZ GO golf carts are the exception. Battery technology still hasn't caught up with the times and all you hear is "within the next few years, we'll have that solved." Solar Panels sound familiar? Those engineers at Delphi did it back in the 80's but GM pulled the plug. Pun intended. All it amounts to nowadays is exercises in futility and getting tax dollars to pay for "research". If all this is so swell why in the world would HD take this to the "people" and then claim it may need this or that redesigned. I'm still not buying it!
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It's kind of like in the bicycle industry. Shimano has had patient designs for 14 speed rear cog sets since the time there were only 7 but every few years we get one more. Oddly enough Campy usually adds one more out back then Shimano follows and Sram. If they sold the best stuff they had they couldn't keep selling us new stuff. Then the economic slavery would end and most people would not know what to do with themselves. All these changes have to happen slowly so they have time to come up with other stuff to sell. Free energy,100 mpg cars, not working 40hrs a week or more. who are we kidding. Pipe dreams and folk lore I tell you folk lore.
I hope they do it though. I heard there was going to be a small compartment that uses there old 4 speed trans seal to slowly drip oil underneath. Also if you let it run out a check engine light will come on and not let power got to the electric motor.
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HD doesn't build bikes for the niche market.
Dusty
And here I thought they only built bikes for a niche market. Be it there own niche market. I don't see allot of variety from Harley. It's do you want a small cruiser or large? fearing or no. bags hard or soft. that's about it.
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I think their concept for the audio signature sucks! Constant high pitch sound is very annoying. Almost like nails on a chalk board. Silent would be much preferred.
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I think their concept for the audio signature sucks! Constant high pitch sound is very annoying. Almost like nails on a chalk board. Silent would be much preferred.
Once you start moving, you can't hear the high pitch sound. Another test rider commented that he could actually hear the wind on these, and I wanted to comment on his choice of straight pipes on his current bike.
Ken
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Here's a vid on photobucket. You can also see the other pics in the library.
(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll83/ksiegel7/Livewire/th_IMG_4493_zpsb6cdfda7.jpg) (http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll83/ksiegel7/Livewire/IMG_4493_zpsb6cdfda7.mp4)
Ken
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The up close details look a lot more like a production bike than a prototype. Build quality looks to be good (from the pics, anyway).
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This is not Harley's first attempt at making and electric bike.
One of the few bikes Dale doesn't have to kick over at Wheels Through Time.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-aygnYmN8poQ/U7AfcRRvw5I/AAAAAAAABfs/Uyw_1ECIZCI/w949-h712-no/DSCN0711.JPG)
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Rode over to Sonoma H-D for the Northern California LiveWire event. I did not have a reserved ride time like my friend Griso John. I signed up on the stand-by list and got to go in the five bike group along with Griso John. I didn't expect that to happen. What a great bike, very impressive. Too bad it was only about a 5-mile demo ride. I was impressed with the instant throttle response, roll on the throttle and it surges forward, roll off the throttle and the motor braking is amazing, didn't need to use the front and rear brakes much at all. Very easy to ride smoothly, well balanced and felt light. Very well run event, the H-D marketing group knows how to presort their products.
Note my Reddy KiloWatt cap.
http://harleydavidson.phototouchinc.com/main/index/3403a4r2a494647494r2v2
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Yeahoo, you make it look tiny.
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Just found this thread through Analytics of my YouTube video; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Umvg2Qj4ooA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Umvg2Qj4ooA)
I spent hours and hours with the engineers at this event. I have extensive experience with electric powered vehicles through the material handling industry, and tried to pry as much out of the engineers as possible. A few points.
First, NOTHING about this motorcycle is fixed. They are not even prototypes, they were designed entirely to suit a single purpose; that purpose is to present their possibility to as many people as possible, with as few negative traits as possible. Their shape, their weight, their power, their ergonomics are all dictated exclusively to accommodate every conceivable rider from 5'0" to 6'8" and at every level of experience. So any disparaging of the design is unwarranted.
Second, the power package was designed for a single purpose as well-that purpose is to present it to as many people as possible, give controllable spirited performance but knowing full well that these bikes would NEVER see more than 20 miles at a time on these test rides.
That said. Batteries, the sticking point. The installed packs on these bikes have a range of about 50 miles, they said. However, that is 50 miles under test conditions; everybody whacking the throttle at every opportunity and set in the 'power' mode. Estimated commuter conditions about 70 miles. Under 'mileage' settings probably 90. Without any restructuring of the current bike, they could safely stuff another 30% battery capacity in it, giving it as much or more range than a Sportster has with the standard tank. Of course, a recharge takes longer than a fill-up, but who actually rides a Sportster more than a full tank in a day?
New battery technology is in the wings, as soon as the labs can stop them from exploding, Oxygen batteries will contain 3 times the energy with 1/2 the weight. It's only a matter of time.
Power, now we're having fun. The motor in this thing is not merely 3 phase, like the one on your bridgeport. They are SEM motors; the field coils and armatures are computer-controlled (Separately Excited Motor) which allows for 100% torque alignment at all motor speeds (as seen, 8000rpm limit with max. allowable 15,000) Shaft torque is 60 lbs/ft. *60 LBS/FT!! With the enormous reduction necessary to the rear wheel, and full torque available from 0 rpms, this thing has no trouble at all peeling the rear tire-in my video there are two times you can hear that if you listen carefully. On these test bikes the controller is programmed with an acceleration curve, which only allows the engine to spin up at a given rate; not exactly traction control but it keeps the tire from going up in smoke. In the upcoming Marvel picture "Avengers-Age of Ultron" the Black Widow rides a Livewire with all the governors removed and it's obscene. http://marvel.com/videos/watch/4903/marvels_avengers_age_of_ultron_-_trailer_2_teaser (http://marvel.com/videos/watch/4903/marvels_avengers_age_of_ultron_-_trailer_2_teaser)
Ultimately, my impression overall was very, very good-I'd buy this bike tomorrow, as ridden, and I'd pay $8000 for it with an expected battery life of 4 years. And I'd ride the shit out of it, and I'd hack the controller so I could Hooligan ride it for 30 miles and be damn happy with it. But of course it's not intended to be a targeted fit to any one person.
Anybody with questions about it feel free to ask, I'd have to write a book to put it all here.
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I saw the Harley at the Dallas show. Small little bike with about a 30 mile range. Harley had a wheel dyno set up and allowing for folks to test the bike. It made real whiiiiinnnne sound, like George Jetson or something.
(http://g3.img-dpreview.com/6195505BB6444E1F956D6BCBC9FF97B5.jpg)
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Sorry, but I want an electric bike. I suspect I won't be able to afford it for a while though.
H-D should get kudos for even presenting this thing. After all, which mfg has courted their entire customer base just by having a 'lumpy' motor. :) Talk about polar opposites.
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Could you imagine te 1%ers coming into town on these? Talk about stealth!
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WTF is Harley thinking?
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the future sure looks expensive.
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Wow, should have got a tiny URL for that.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Guzzi/i-mVTkxk4/0/54196a42/XL/2019010719281866-IMG_0082-XL.png) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/Guzzi/i-mVTkxk4/A)
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110 mile range? I'd want at least 10% in reserve, so 100 mi?
Way too limited in range to be practical. I recently bought an electric pedal-assist bicycle--I think that's the best application of the technology at this point.
Rich
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No wonder Harley wanted Alta to fail. The Alta bike is a good e-bike at less than 1/2 the price of the Livewire.
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110 mile range? I'd want at least 10% in reserve, so 100 mi?
Way too limited in range to be practical. I recently bought an electric pedal-assist bicycle--I think that's the best application of the technology at this point.
Rich
I dunno, they've been selling peanut-tank Sportsters with a 90-mile range for 50 years and people have been eating them up, so 100 mile range probably won't bother the target market. Which probably isn't us ....
Lannis
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I dunno, they've been selling peanut-tank Sportsters with a 90-mile range for 50 years
Lannis
But 90 mi to a gas station is very different from getting to a charging station and then waiting hours (I'd assume)
to recharge the batteries.
Rich
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But 90 mi to a gas station is very different from getting to a charging station and then waiting hours (I'd assume)
to recharge the batteries.
Rich
Yes, quite. But over the years, I've found, 90 miles IS a day for a Sportster rider. A LONG day. I don't know about the electric HD riders; they might put up with the range and recharge time just to be in on the bleeding edge of technology ....
Lannis
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Zero claims 200 miles (city) or 100 (Highway) so if Harley are quoting highway miles then it looks ball park reasonable for current tech. Price again looks to be what you would expect and will only appeal
really to early adopters (same people who bought Tesla Roadsters) who are happy to pay a premium, would say that Guzzi owners are in all likelihood the opposite of early adopters so you are probably
not the target market. Ultimately for transport and cars/motorcycles in general I would say that battery tech is a dead end and hydrogen fuel cell would be the way to go.
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No price is not about what you would expect. Zero best bike has apparently much more range and the zeros msrp is $16,500! Over $10,000 less than this turd.
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It is a Harley price? *shrug*
Put aside the price and brand bashing, I do wish to see more of this.
Might not like this style, BUT at least push for more competition which will have more players to make more of other style :thumb:
At least that is what I am hoping lol...
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Zero=Nissan Leaf, Harley=Tesla (BMW I3) so the price differential is about what you would expect, is it a turd, don't know haven't ridden it or the Zero.
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My favorite electric moto review
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=14&v=-U8JK7lUqA8
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Dudes. It WILL NOT get 110 miles. Every single review of any electric I’ve seen, regardless of brand, always comes in at around 3/4 of the range listed in real world riding; however, someone willing to fork over this kind of change for this bike won’t care about the 90ish mile range. In my estimation it is the best looking electric out there but will anyone be willing to go to the bank for this. Good to see Harley trying different things lately, but uh, I don’t think this bike nor the turd looking adventure bike is gonna do it for them.
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Price does not matter to most People, they are not buying it anyway. It is an exclusivity club price toy. Just lik
(https://i.ibb.co/2knyFPW/Buell-Blast.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2knyFPW)
dark knight rises bridge (https://movieplotholes.com/the-dark-knight-rises)
e many other high dollar toys that are very impracticable for everyday use. I own a Buell Blast that is everything this bike is at 1/30th the price.
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No thank you!
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Too pricey for me. But it will sell. And 100 mile range... or even 75 miles... is perfect for the average urban commuter, urban profiler, sunday rider.
It's coming. Might as well start embracing the idea.
It's still early in the game. The price on this stuff will drop, a lot, as they become more common, and more companies start offering the tech. Price will drop, range will increase.
The internal combustion engine as we know it will die eventually. It has to.
(alos, any chance a mod can alter that first post so this isn't 17 screens wide?)
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At long last "get your motor running" will be technically accurate. "Head out on the highway" less so, given the range issue.
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The price is three times what it should be but I think an E-bike might be a genius move for Harley. If they put a fast charge station in every dealership, you could almost cross the country despite the 100 mile range. There are around 700 Harley dealers in the US. I know quite a few Harley owners who will make a dealership a destination for a Saturday ride. IMHO, while I don’t enjoy riding them, their dealerships are great. They’re a nice place to spend a half hour. If an E-bike rider bought a T-shirt or related merchandise even 1 in 10 times they charge, HD would sell a ton more shirts and crap than they already do.
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It's coming. Might as well start embracing the idea.
It's still early in the game. The price on this stuff will drop, a lot, as they become more common, and more companies start offering the tech. Price will drop, range will increase.
The internal combustion engine as we know it will die eventually. It has to.
Wow, have I been hearing THAT for a long time. We DON'T yet know that it's coming, we DON'T have to start embracing the idea, and the internal combustion engine as we know it will still be the main mode of motive force on the roads for our great-grandchildren .....
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If they found a way to make the batteries hot-swappable, and eventually universal across multiple brands of vehicles, they would be miles ahead. Of course Harley and the metric clones would then need to put baseball cards on the spokes. The Screaming Eagle models would use a bladder rubbing against the spokes with a rapidly variable compressor , to increase and decrease the air pressure to emmulate shifting, and of course kikker speakers to announce "cool" to the cagers.
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No price is not about what you would expect. Zero best bike has apparently much more range and the zeros msrp is $16,500! Over $10,000 less than this turd.
Try buying a ZERO for $16,500. Oh you want the 200 mile range? That is an upgraded battery. Oh you want to be able to be fully charged in 8 hours? That is an upgraded charging system. On and on.
I remember when the Sony Walkman came out. $120 in late 1970s. You could buy an amazing Ghetto Blaster for $50. It was a rich man's toy. Thankfully enough rich men bought it and the prices came down.
Hopefully enough rich men will buy electric bikes to make them more reasonable.
If one is really focused on the economics of a motorcycle purchase there would be no wildguzzi forum to come visit. We would all be riding $3000 Hondas or Kawasakis.
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If they put a fast charge station in every dealership,
They could put a charge station next to every bar.
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If they found a way to make the batteries hot-swappable, and eventually universal across multiple brands of vehicles, they would be miles ahead. Of course Harley and the metric clones would then need to put baseball cards on the spokes. The Screaming Eagle models would use a bladder rubbing against the spokes with a rapidly variable compressor , to increase and decrease the air pressure to emmulate shifting, and of course kikker speakers to announce "cool" to the cagers.
Hot swap universal batteries would be be great but would require motorcycle manufacturers to standardize and that ain't happening.
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Twowheel, you need to check your facts. The most powerfully equiped Zero has significantly more of everything you want than the HD and for FAR less money.
Equipped for maximum run time MSRP $16,890.
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/ click SPEC at top of page
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I give credit to Harley for offering such a radical departure from their established brand of V-Twin cruiser style bike. This is so far removed from a typical H-D product and I suspect even further removed from what a H-D buyer is looking for. I like the idea of H-D selling an electric bike with sleek styling but I can't see how the H-D market could embrace this.
If the sales history of the Street Rod or Buel are any indication this is going to be a very tough sale.
I could see BMW selling a few, appealing to the tech side of their market base, but Harley Davidson ????
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I rode them.
I'll buy one.
If, I get some assurance I can hack off the control limiter.
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Sorry , this is like the $30K Motus , which is a wonderful motorbike by all accounts , but maybe no better than a $20K Honda . They will sell a few just because , but Zero is already established and builds a brilliant if limited use motorbike for much less . Predicting this thing will languish in dealer showrooms like the V-Rod and Buells did , and they were competent motorbikes . Time will tell , but the MoCo is grasping with this thing .
Dusty
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Bingo for Dusty!
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It's ever worse than I feared for HD. Their press release states in can travel an estimated 110 miles of URBAN road on a single charge. For $13000 less you could buy the Zero rated at 223 URBAN miles!!!
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It's ever worse than I feared for HD. Their press release states in can travel an estimated 110 miles of URBAN road on a single charge....[snip]
Just like that episode in Grand Tour when Jeremy let Hammond decided where to go on his EV sports car...
Chest Museum anyone?
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:rolleyes:
Now that’s funny, I don’t care who you are.......
$30K!!!
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Sorry , this is like the $30K Motus , which is a wonderful motorbike by all accounts , but maybe no better than a $20K Honda . They will sell a few just because , but Zero is already established and builds a brilliant if limited use motorbike for much less . Predicting this thing will languish in dealer showrooms like the V-Rod and Buells did , and they were competent motorbikes . Time will tell , but the MoCo is grasping with this thing .
Dusty
Do you think with the ever tightening environmental concerns that all manufacturer's would be wise to start marketing electric stuff no matter the cost right now? It's my opinion that before electric vehicles become the standard, breakthroughs in more efficient batteries are necessary'
Electric is for some but not for me..
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Do you think with the ever tightening environmental concerns that all manufacturer's would be wise to start marketing electric stuff no matter the cost right now? It's my opinion that before electric vehicles become the standard, breakthroughs in more efficient batteries are necessary'
Electric is for some but not for me..
It would seem to be a good idea , and if HD had brought this thing in at a competitive price I would see this differently .
This E-vehicle thing is something I've been studying for years , even Kevin Cameron has written extensively about the technology . My understanding is that storage capability has doubled on average every 7 years . There will be no big breakthrough that allows for a sudden leap , it is slow and grinding work that has got us where we are now . My interest is purely academic . I only drive about 1,000 miles a year now , and ride about 6,000 miles , so I have no emotional ties to IC or E technology , but real world experts say E vehicles are coming , Sweden is already a fairly large market for Tesla . Americans tend to be a bit hidebound to old tech , hot water tanks instead of tankless heaters which are not only more efficient but more durable . The Zero brand will be the heavy hitters in the 2 wheeled market , already established and all .
Dusty
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It would seem to be a good idea , and if HD had brought this thing in at a competitive price I would see this differently .
This E-vehicle thing is something I've been studying for years , even Kevin Cameron has written extensively about the technology . My understanding is that storage capability has doubled on average every 7 years . There will be no big breakthrough that allows for a sudden leap , it is slow and grinding work that has got us where we are now . My interest is purely academic . I only drive about 1,000 miles a year now , and ride about 6,000 miles , so I have no emotional ties to IC or E technology , but real world experts say E vehicles are coming , Sweden is already a fairly large market for Tesla . Americans tend to be a bit hidebound to old tech , hot water tanks instead of tankless heaters which are not only more efficient but more durable . The Zero brand will be the heavy hitters in the 2 wheeled market , already established and all .
Dusty
Traveling in Europe is a bit different than traveling in the states. How big is Sweden compared to the USA? We have counties within states that are as big as European countries. If I drive 300 miles from east to west in Pennsylvania I'm still in Pennsylvania. Do that in Europe and you might have gone over 3 borders.
We also have lots of natural resources and access to cost effective fuels so as long as gasoline and fuel oil are cheap internal combustion engines will right wrong or indifferent reign supreme in the US of A for a long time.
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Traveling in Europe is a bit different than traveling in the states. How big is Sweden compared to the USA? We have counties within states that are as big as European countries. If I drive 300 miles from east to west in Pennsylvania I'm still in Pennsylvania. Do that in Europe and you might have gone over 3 borders.
We also have lots of natural resources and access to cost effective fuels so as long as gasoline and fuel oil are cheap internal combustion engines will right wrong or indifferent reign supreme in the US of A for a long time.
Maybe , maybe not . This board is made up of old guys , in discussion with people in their 20's they are already wanting E vehicles , and in a few short years we will all be gone and won't matter . I get that we are a large country , but how many Americans really take long car trips anymore ?
Dusty
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Americans tend to be a bit hidebound to old tech , hot water tanks instead of tankless heaters which are not only more efficient but more durable.
Dusty
I do admit to be slow to adopt new technology until I can see that it's not just subsidized hype, or causes my life more damage than benefit, but I HAVE investigated both gas and electric tankless water heaters vs both gas and electric storage tanks, and when response time and total cost are considered, none of the plumbers I've talked to recommend tankless FOR OUR APPLICATION. (This was a WG topic some years back, too). Our power company has installed a "smart switch" on our hot water tank, that's operated by modulating the 110V power, and which shuts down our water heater under certain time/demand conditions and really saves on the power.
And it's going to be a slow grind increasing the energy density of batteries vs. gasoline; gasoline has over a 100 to 1 advantage over batteries in energy stored per volume. Unless someone gets with Larry Niven and asks him how the Kzinti "molecular distortion" battery works, and until someone figures out how to "fill the tank" in 2 minutes, electric is always going to have extremely limited application, just like the past 110 years .... there are millions of people criss-crossing this country every year "Seeing The USA In Their Chevrolet", probably more than before our time, when there were trains running, and before everyone flying on a plane had to agree to be sexually molested by the TSA to go anywhere ..
Lannis
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I do admit to be slow to adopt new technology until I can see that it's not just subsidized hype, or causes my life more damage than benefit, but I HAVE investigated both gas and electric tankless water heaters vs both gas and electric storage tanks, and when response time and total cost are considered, none of the plumbers I've talked to recommend tankless FOR OUR APPLICATION. (This was a WG topic some years back, too). Our power company has installed a "smart switch" on our hot water tank, that's operated by modulating the 110V power, and which shuts down our water heater under certain time/demand conditions and really saves on the power.
And it's going to be a slow grind increasing the energy density of batteries vs. gasoline; gasoline has over a 100 to 1 advantage over batteries in energy stored per volume. Unless someone gets with Larry Niven and asks him how the Kzinti "molecular distortion" battery works, and until someone figures out how to "fill the tank" in 2 minutes, electric is always going to have extremely limited application, just like the past 110 years .... there are millions of people criss-crossing this country every year "Seeing The USA In Their Chevrolet", probably more than before our time, when there were trains running, and before everyone flying on a plane had to agree to be sexually molested by the TSA to go anywhere ..
Lannis
I've installed at least 5 tankless systems on gut remodels over the years , they work brilliantly and start saving money within the first year to two years . One of our board members built a new home about ten years ago and installed a tankless driven heated slab , still running and saving a fortune . No idea why plumbers are so hidebound on the issue , maybe most of them are simply afraid of what is now 30 year old proven tech that saves tons of money . Heck , the first one I installed has now been running for over 15 years with zero issues , meanwhile at least 3 conventional hot water tanks I installed less than 10 years ago have failed and required replacement .
Dusty
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Range and recharge are tough issues to fix, which is ultimately why I think that hydrogen fuel cell tech is better way to go, fueling infrastructure is not dissimilar to what is already in place so refuel is as quick or nearly as quick as petrol/diesel, range is better than EV's for example Hyundai have a fuel cell car (https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2019-hyundai-nexo-first-drive-review) with an estimated range of 370 miles.
EV's have the Musk/Tesla marketing machine behind it,making it sound like EV's are the only solution.
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There's an old saying "never say never" I think I can safely say I WILL NEVER OWN AN ELECTRIC MOTORCYCLE, regardless of brand and you guys can hold me hold me to :)
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There's an old saying "never say never" I think I can safely say I WILL NEVER OWN AN ELECTRIC MOTORCYCLE, regardless of brand and you guys can hold me hold me to :)
I'd get one for commuting if the buy in price came down.. not the Harley but a nimble little curb jumper that can still do short freeway hops.
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There's an old saying "never say never" I think I can safely say I WILL NEVER OWN AN ELECTRIC MOTORCYCLE, regardless of brand and you guys can hold me hold me to :)
Likely I won't either , and maybe hydrogen fuel cell tech will be the dominant tech in 30 years , but it is also likely only a few of us will be around anyway . However , tech is never static , change is slow but steady . Would you have predicted that Oklahoma would be producing over 20% of its electricity with wind in 2018 ? How many of us saw the home computer computer revolution ? My grandparents couldn't even envision a day when almost every home would have air conditioning , and forget about the microwave oven , that would be voodoo .
Dusty
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I didn’t look the facts up first, but I’m fairly confident that at least 55% of the make up of the USA lives in urban/suburban areas. And certainly for 75% of those a 100 mile range will be more than adequate. I suspect I will have an electric bike and car before I’m done.
A range of a 100 miles covers 90% of my motoring needs. For the other 10% give me a sweet 90 degree IC vtwin!
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I can also envision E-bikes having foldout solar panels to be used when parked. Should be able to get some useful charge when parked for eight plus hours at work or at home. There are already glider pilots adapting solar panels into gliders for supporting electrical needs of radio, nav equipment and instruments. Even if a day of charging in the sun gave you just another 20-30 miles that would be significant.
GliderJohn
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Here is what I know , 30 years ago a 9 V pro Makita drill had a battery that was about 3 inches by 3 inches by 2 inches . The last one I purchased about 6 months ago is a 20 V model with a battery that is less than half the size of the old 9 V version , and it holds enough charge to operate for about 50% longer . So here we are , slow but steady progress at about double capacity every 7 years .
Dusty
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110 mile range? I'd want at least 10% in reserve, so 100 mi?
Way too limited in range to be practical. I recently bought an electric pedal-assist bicycle--I think that's the best application of the technology at this point.
Rich
Yes...they will sell a few...but IMHO...a 100-110 mile range is the limiting factor!! :shocked: :shocked: :rolleyes: :huh:
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Maybe , maybe not . This board is made up of old guys , in discussion with people in their 20's they are already wanting E vehicles , and in a few short years we will all be gone and won't matter . I get that we are a large country , but how many Americans really take long car trips anymore ?
Dusty
How many Europeans drive 10, 20 50 or 100 miles one way to work everyday? My wife and I drive 50+ miles each way. Over 90% of the people I work with drive at least 30 miles one way to work. You don't have to take long summer car trips once a year to warrant some driving range.
As for the tankless water heater debate its all about the fuel source you have available. Tankless water heaters are great if you have access to NG or LP not so good if you have fuel oil. Sure if you have a hydronic heating system being fed by a fuel oil fired boiler you can get a boiler with a domestic coil and basically have a tankless water heater. But then you burn fuel oil year round.
I have a hydronic hot water heating system and chose to not purchase a domestic coil as I did not want to consume fuel oil year round. Interestingly every street but mine has NG. 18 years ago when I was getting ready to install a new boiler I called the gas company to see about getting and extension to my house about 250' from the closest main. I told them I would do a total conversion dryer, water heater, range and boiler. They wanted $10,000 to connect. So its been fuel oil and an electric water heater for me for the last 18 years and will be fuel oil and an electric water heater for me for the forseeable future.
Granted I'm no house plumber running a putty wagon but I've had a little exposure to the plumbing/pipfitting trade.
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I have test ridden a couple of Zeros and would love to have a FX for local rides and light trail riding. I have had 2 strokes ,4 strokes 1,2,3,4, cylinder bikes, V twins,parallel twins. why not an E bike? Just a different way to move .But the Harley is way to much to pay for that badge on the tank. It will be interesting how it matches up to the Zero DR or the new bike they have coming out E bike when the shoot outs start.
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Well this year many MotoGP events will also have MotoE, so we ca see how that goes. Dorna insisted race distance would allow full power throught but the bikes are still slower than Moto3.
I watched Formula E last month. I was surprised at how slow it looked.
Finally-I can see electric cars being useful, heck they are all over the place here-but why would I want an electric motorcycle until they are SUPERIOR or CHEAPER? I mean, it's a fun device. Maybe for trials?
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Lets say you ride an E-bike for 30K miles. How much have you saved in maintenance costs, especially if one relys on a dealer for the work? That is significant.
GliderJohn
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Lets say you ride an E-bike for 30K miles. How much have you saved in maintenance costs, especially if one relys on a dealer for the work? That is significant.
GliderJohn
You'll have plenty of time to caculate the saving during the 300 charging cycles in that 30,000 miles.
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Lets say you ride an E-bike for 30K miles. How much have you saved in maintenance costs, especially if one relys on a dealer for the work? That is significant.
GliderJohn
Of course, for everything except the motor and transmission, maintenance will be the same as for a gas bike. Does the motor and drive gear need no maintenance, ever, on an E-bike? Windmills, for example, are turning out to be problematic maintenance-wise. They'd never survive without subsidies ... and you see more and more of them "not turning" as you pass a clump of them ... so not really enough "mileage" on electrical stuff yet to know if it "works" long term.
Lannis
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Like a turd/
On a Wire...
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Just skip to 1:40.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjANznPknyM
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Like a turd/
On a Wire...
Excellent catch!
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How many Europeans drive 10, 20 50 or 100 miles one way to work everyday? My wife and I drive 50+ miles each way. Over 90% of the people I work with drive at least 30 miles one way to work. You don't have to take long summer car trips once a year to warrant some driving range.
As for the tankless water heater debate its all about the fuel source you have available. Tankless water heaters are great if you have access to NG or LP not so good if you have fuel oil. Sure if you have a hydronic heating system being fed by a fuel oil fired boiler you can get a boiler with a domestic coil and basically have a tankless water heater. But then you burn fuel oil year round.
I have a hydronic hot water heating system and chose to not purchase a domestic coil as I did not want to consume fuel oil year round. Interestingly every street but mine has NG. 18 years ago when I was getting ready to install a new boiler I called the gas company to see about getting and extension to my house about 250' from the closest main. I told them I would do a total conversion dryer, water heater, range and boiler. They wanted $10,000 to connect. So its been fuel oil and an electric water heater for me for the last 18 years and will be fuel oil and an electric water heater for me for the forseeable future.
Granted I'm no house plumber running a putty wagon but I've had a little exposure to the plumbing/pipfitting trade.
I don’t know what region you live in, but based on your claim, you don’t live where the large majority of Americans live.
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Likely I won't either , and maybe hydrogen fuel cell tech will be the dominant tech in 30 years , but it is also likely only a few of us will be around anyway . However , tech is never static , change is slow but steady . Would you have predicted that Oklahoma would be producing over 20% of its electricity with wind in 2018 ? How many of us saw the home computer computer revolution ? My grandparents couldn't even envision a day when almost every home would have air conditioning , and forget about the microwave oven , that would be voodoo .
Dusty
All true Dusty, time does march on and I'm sure my grandson will no Doubt possibility ride a fantastic non internal combustion engine cycle. However at 66 years old I just think I can evolve fast enough to ever be satisfied not hearing a Vtwin rumble under my butt.
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Like a turd/
On a Wire...
Leonard Cohen lives.
OTOH, every time HD has varied from their prime product, it hasn't worked out. Ya gotta give them credit (Bless their hearts) they keep trying. Hope it works out for them.
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Americans tend to be a bit hidebound to old tech , hot water tanks instead of tankless heaters which are not only more efficient but more durable . The Zero brand will be the heavy hitters in the 2 wheeled market , already established and all .
Americans are more cost conscious, and gas prices are a lot lower here. I don't know what electricity costs in Europe, but, gas and diesel cost what 3-4X what it does here in the US? That is a big factor in the decision to buy an electric vehicle. Even with gov't subsidies, electric vehicles still cost significantly more.
I would think with water heaters, cost is also the factors. The tankless ones cost more. If if they'll pay for themselves, Americans seem to take whatever is cheapest in the short term. There are a lot of people in this country that can barely make ends meet, so, I can't say as if I blame them.
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Traveling in Europe is a bit different than traveling in the states. How big is Sweden compared to the USA? We have counties within states that are as big as European countries. If I drive 300 miles from east to west in Pennsylvania I'm still in Pennsylvania. Do that in Europe and you might have gone over 3 borders.
We also have lots of natural resources and access to cost effective fuels so as long as gasoline and fuel oil are cheap internal combustion engines will right wrong or indifferent reign supreme in the US of A for a long time.
Sweden has a little more land mass than California, with the population of Illinois, and a population density of Oklahoma.
Sweden:
Area
• Total - 173,860 sq mi
• Water (%) - 8.7
Population
• October 2018 census - 10,215,250
• Density - 59.6/sq mi
Pennsylvania:
Area
• Total 46,055 sq mi
• % water 2.7
Population
• Total 12,805,537 (2017)
• Density 284/sq mi
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I give credit to Harley for offering such a radical departure from their established brand of V-Twin cruiser style bike. This is so far removed from a typical H-D product and I suspect even further removed from what a H-D buyer is looking for. I like the idea of H-D selling an electric bike with sleek styling but I can't see how the H-D market could embrace this.
If the sales history of the Street Rod or Buel are any indication this is going to be a very tough sale.
I could see BMW selling a few, appealing to the tech side of their market base, but Harley Davidson ????
The street rod is a 750cc bike. Are you talking about the Vrod? I rode the Vrod and it was fun, but didn't feel like a Harley. For a 3rd of the money I bought the less prestigious Vulcan Mean Streak power cruiser.
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Twowheel, you need to check your facts. The most powerfully equiped Zero has significantly more of everything you want than the HD and for FAR less money.
Equipped for maximum run time MSRP $16,890.
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/ click SPEC at top of page
You forgot to check the options to get to the range you talked about and the extra charging. The starting MSRP is now $19,990.
I would need to compare all the features side by side before I decided that the Harley has enough extra features to justify the extra cost. I don't care enough to do that though. But it would be interesting to know how they stack up feature to feature.
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I don’t know what region you live in, but based on your claim, you don’t live where the large majority of Americans live.
I live in the North East. I am located within less than 2 hours of Baltimore, Washington DC, and Allentown. 3 hours from either Pittsburgh or Philly and 4 hours of NYC.
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I don't like to sound like a hater, but IMHO, HD is doing this wrong.
They released the price tag and the "urban range" numbers.
The first is far too high, the second, far too low.
Yet, we have no specs from them on important things on this machine. Wheelbase, seat height, weight, battery capacity, and especially, they're mum about HP and torque numbers. They say it will go from zero to 60 in "under 3.5 seconds" and that's nice... but how many times can you do that before the battery is flat? How long does it take to recharge? Can we add more battery packs for more range like Zero?
I remain underwhelmed with this bike, and I don't have great expectations for it's longevity.
Alta was building better machines than this, for less money, and now they're out of business.
And as for the Zero, if you get their long range model and add the extra battery pack, the "power tank" option, you get 223 miles urban or 112 miles highway at 70 mph.
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/ (https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/)
Kudos to them for understanding the difference between stop and go 30-45 mph urban driving and 60-70 mph open road cruising. HD could learn a few things about electric bikes from reading their competitors websites. My internal pessimist says this will not end well... and we, the consumers, will be forced to accept whatever crappy options the manufactures deem worth building.
FWIW, I would love an electric bike for daily commuting. My ride is 42 miles each way. One way is all up and down hills, the other is mostly flat, but the last 20 miles would require driving on a divided highway that while posted at 65, if you're not doing 75-80 you're risking getting ran over. So, the high end zero would just nicely cover my commute. Add the Power Tank and I'd have a decent reserve. Depending on how the V85 is doing in two more years, well, the price tags are similar enough, so I can easily see one or the other coming home with me.
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It almost like H-D is setting this up to fail. It would make more sense to me for them to initially sell under cost to possibly get the ball rolling a bit. Wonder what audience they will target with the marketing? Between being electric and the styling I don't see hardly any interest from the faithful. I could see a H-D rider that is a serious rider than happens to prefer H-D road bikes buying an electric for daily commuting but that is going to be a small group.
GliderJohn
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Sort of like the Chevy Volt.
HD has checked the box.
That's about it...
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Twowheel you still don’t have it right. I was correct. The SR with the zf14 battery and power pack option does provide the mileage I quoted for less than $17,000. I never claimed it had high speed charging in this configuration.
I believe you are coming up with the inflated price by adding the $2295 Power Tank, which is not compatible with the Power Pack option. As well ass adding the $600 Quck Charger accessory.
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Twowheel you still don’t have it right. I was correct. The SR with the zf14 battery and power pack option does provide the mileage I quoted for less than $14,000. I never claimed it had high speed charging in this configuration.
I believe you are coming up with the inflated price by adding the $2295 Power Tank, which is not compatible with the Power Pack option. As well ass adding the $600 Quck Charger accessory. Yet even with those options which you can’t do the price would still be a sub $17,000 msrp, where are you getting $19,990??
As we were saying on another thread, any bike with an "MSRP" (aka "FOB Factory Loading Dock") of $16,999 is going to be north of $19K "out the door", once preparation, set up, document charges, freight, and all the other delightful "dealer costs that have to be charged" are added in. That's probably where it comes from ....
Lannis
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No Lannis that is not what he said, and I assume he means what he says,
His quote is as follows, "You forgot to check the options to get to the range you talked about and the extra charging. The starting MSRP is now $19,990."
We all know we have to add shipping, tax, maybe some doc, but that goes into every new sale, it is not part of any MSRP. We are still talking about a $13,000 difference in list price between the two bikes.
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It almost like H-D is setting this up to fail. It would make more sense to me for them to initially sell under cost to possibly get the ball rolling a bit. Wonder what audience they will target with the marketing? Between being electric and the styling I don't see hardly any interest from the faithful. I could see a H-D rider that is a serious rider than happens to prefer H-D road bikes buying an electric for daily commuting but that is going to be a small group.
GliderJohn
The same market that buys in early to all modern tech. The same folks that bought a Betamax machine when it first dropped, and were first in line for a plasma TV, and stood in line for the latest and greatest phone... .the same market that will pay a premium to be first, always. and then, slowly, the tech standardizes, R&D costs are recovered, and it slowly becomes commonplace.
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No Lannis that is not what he said, and I assume he means what he says,
His quote is as follows, "You forgot to check the options to get to the range you talked about and the extra charging. The starting MSRP is now $19,990."
We all know we have to add shipping, tax, maybe some doc, but that goes into every new sale, it is not part of any MSRP. We are still talking about a $13,000 difference in list price between the two bikes.
Busted.
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Well there will always be some sales... The big buck collectors will buy one because then can, and no one else will have one.. That being said there are a LOT of riders out there that think 100 miles is a long tour..I think the tech would be awesome for a nice little mid size commuter. the problem is hiding the high cost of the new tech. its a lot easier to hide a few extra grad in a fancy wiz-bang bike, then a basic sub 10grand everyday bike.. So I think in years to come it will be a thing.. and maybe a few of these specials will come and go, and get some miles on them, and "trickle down" sort of.. I think there IS a future for them.. odds are not my generation... And odds are not the next... with Millennials not being much for riding... but things like this tend to jump generations... Our grand lids will be loving them.
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It is expensive, no doubt, but its Achilles Heel is it limited range (to say nothing of the lack of infrastructure/charging stations). For me, with my 300-mile commute and no charging station at my office, electric vehicles are interesting at best. Perhaps one day...
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Uh , Jeff old buddy , 300 miles isn't a commute , that is a relocation :shocked:
Dusty
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300 mile commute is pretty aggressive!! really though most people live within 30 miles from work. Granted noone is commuting on this 30K HD!!!
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I think the real purpose of this bike is to bump share price-the people at HD know this isn't going to pay for itself in sale/profit, but showing that they have the virtuous technology might bump the stock price up a few dollars.
Happens a lot.
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..... showing that they have the virtuous technology .....
I think you've summarized this bike's raison d'être right there ....
Lannis
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oh look at me I have a electric HD. looks great on the trailer don't ya think?
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Uh , Jeff old buddy , 300 miles isn't a commute , that is a relocation :shocked:
Dusty
2ND THAT!
I already bitch at my 80 miles commute...I can't imagine 300...
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old as dirt 2:
oh look at me I have a electric HD. looks great on the trailer don't ya think?
Well...it's not safe to ride on the street. Loud pipes save lives and there ain't no loud. :grin:
GliderJohn
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Uh , Jeff old buddy , 300 miles isn't a commute , that is a relocation :shocked:
Dusty
It is not too bad: 150 miles in each direction, with a long stop in between for work. On average, I do it just once or twice each week for a total of 5 to 10 hours of travel.
When we lived "in town" (the country, really) and I commuted 5 days a week, it often took 90 minutes to travel 20 miles each way, or 15 hours per week in total... So, I am traveling fewer hours each week (though at a much faster average speed).
When the weather is fine and I decide to ride, it is a nice warmup for my bike.
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How many of you actually watched the video Pressureangle posted?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjANznPknyM
I can see a lot of bugs being impressed by that LOL
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Twowheel you still don’t have it right. I was correct. The SR with the zf14 battery and power pack option does provide the mileage I quoted for less than $17,000. I never claimed it had high speed charging in this configuration.
I believe you are coming up with the inflated price by adding the $2295 Power Tank, which is not compatible with the Power Pack option. As well ass adding the $600 Quck Charger accessory.
I just clicked on the options available and read the price at the bottom. If Zero let me select competing options then shame on them for not building a good website.
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How many of you actually watched the video Pressureangle posted?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjANznPknyM
I can see a lot of bugs being impressed by that LOL
I rode the thing. I talked to the engineers for 4 hours. I talked to the marketing people, and the design people.
This is not a checkbox. This is a very serious entry into an untapped market.
FWIW, in the after-ride opinion survey, asked 'what would you pay for this' I said ~$18k. I think the price reflects the balance between initial production numbers, red ink, and demographics.
I said I'd have the first one that day, and I still mean to. It's that cool, and I haven't bought but 2 new motorcycles in my entire life, both for racing.
Given that I rarely ride more than 100 miles a day, distance isn't an issue. What it feels like on those short trips is everything- otherwise, I'll take the car, right? No gas, no starter, no clutch or shifter.
This bike, given the ability to remove the controls, is the absolute in Hooliganism.
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How many of you actually watched the video Pressureangle posted?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjANznPknyM
I can see a lot of bugs being impressed by that LOL
I was too busy watching this one ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eF9AC2Ce2ow
If fantasy movie scenes work, Ducati ought to be outselling everyone ... !
Lannis
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- just my casual observance -
I see a lot of "costs too much" and "range is too short" and some Harley bashing, thrown in for good measure ......
- But maybe a bit more odd is that it's already a three page electric Harley thread on a Moto Guzzi forum.
What I think is that someone needs to buy one of these things and lend it to me for a weekend.
:grin: :grin: :grin:
:bike-037:
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- just my casual observance -
I see a lot of "costs too much" and "range is too short" and some Harley bashing, thrown in for good measure ......
- But maybe a bit more odd is that it's already a three page electric Harley thread on a Moto Guzzi forum.
What I think is that someone needs to buy one of these things and lend it to me for a weekend.
:grin: :grin: :grin:
:bike-037:
Come to the 2019 Southern Spine Raid. With any luck, and no delays in delivery...
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Pretty cool, but not real practical for common use, and not worth the money. I think that there has to be another great leap forward in battery technology to make electric vehicles a viable alternative.
Larry
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Let's talk about this again on 2/25/19. Zero Motorcycles will release an entirely new platform, that I suspect will crush the HD on any front that matters, even though they already have!
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com
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Let's talk about this again on 2/25/19. Zero Motorcycles will release an entirely new platform, that I suspect will crush the HD on any front that matters, even though they already have!
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com
Watch for good deals on the soon-to-be obsolete current model Zeros.
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Everyone complains about the range. I contend the range isn't the problem, it's the "fill up" time back to !00%. 8 hours? 10? Buy some super-voltage charger and maybe cut it down to 6 hours? Is it winter, is it summer, got to factor in temperature, you know.. Outside the commute to and from work they just don't sound very practical (I know, most people don't think ANY motorcycle is practical). Man, I went on the ADV Live Wire post and made a few disparaging remarks about the Tesla being an "over-priced golf cart for the well-heeled." Man, those Kool-aid drinkers got pissed! Worse than BMW riders! Ha! I guess no one wants to be told their 100K car is a pricy golf cart. Even if they do use them just like one. I was surprised to learn the Tesla range is approacing 300 miles...under "optimal conditions" (like not in the mountains and not in the winter time!) That's pretty good, as long as you don't really need to go anywhere. But that still doesn't solve the long down time to recharge. Elec. vehicles aren't practical outside the city, and thank God I don't live in the city anymore. I like the look of the Live Wire, but like some here, think its just an expensive novelty. Well, I guess I'd better go out and plug in the EZ-Go....
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Another electric vehicle fail. Yawn. They should provide a portable bed and TV for you when you buy this bike, so you have something to do while it recharges LOL!
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Most of the auto drivers I know could live with a sub-100 mile range, especially since the "tank" is full every morning.
When I went for a ride with a guy on has Harley-a lifestyle type rider-after 200 miles he was AMAZED at how far he went-100 miles was higher than he's ever gone let alone the 200 we rode.
Still, I don't see it being real popular.
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Not really on topic for the Harley, but on topic for EVs, I have a 90 mile daily round trip commute and the wife needed a new car, so she got my Subie and I bought myself a plug in hybrid Prius (and received > $9,000 in Toyota, state and federal tax rebates). Only 20-25 mile range on battery, but once that is out I get about 56 mpg on the gas side. So when I plug in both ways, I'm doing my 90 miles on about a half a gallon of gas. With an 11 gallon tank, it's got a range of over 500 miles without plugging in. Car is as ugly as an old man's ars, relatively comfy, smooth and bland as a coffee creamer, but I'm now spending next to nothing on gas and I don't have to worry about electric range. Win, big win, at least for my wallet if not my masculinity. :angel:
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1 more thought on range-on the Indian Scout forum a vendor is offering extended range tanks, and asked if he should make them all with room for an aftermarket intake vs the stock. The difference is substantial, with stock intake the tank goes to 4.5 gallons, with room for the others it only gets to the high 3s.
Most comments are interested in the "fancy intake" version. Never mind the benefits.
On hybrids-for years I thought I was clever thinking they couldn't be sensible since the non plug-in types still got their energy from the gasoline on board. Only much later did I realize it was all about pumping losses. So rather than compare 2 cars of similar displacement one should look at performance, as the hybrid can give better acceleration with lower displacement, and thus lower pumping loss. Same concept as turbocharging with a different technology.
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Man, I went on the ADV Live Wire post and made a few disparaging remarks about the Tesla being an "over-priced golf cart for the well-heeled." Man, those Kool-aid drinkers got pissed! Worse than BMW riders! Ha! I guess no one wants to be told their 100K car is a pricy golf cart. Even if they do use them just like one.
It's a religion. People get pissed when you question their religion...
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I think once they get the recharging time down to something reasonable time cars will catch on because 99% of the driving public do not care what is under the hood anymore, as long as they get in and can go that is all that really matters. Watch the new car ads its all about connecting.Not sure what you are connecting to but it seems important.And they never mention the motor. And most motorcyclist are just around town, short rides,and I hate to say now a days that is pretty much what I do.
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Here's a typical scenario that would keep me off an EV bike: You ride it to work, back and forth across town, just like always, 60 miles RT or so. Your leaving work when some nice young lady from data analysis says their all getting together for drinks at Louie's across town and would you like to join them? On your Griso, you say, "Sure, I'll need some gas first, see you in 20 minutes. On a bike like a LiveWire, you say, "uh, sorry, too far. Have to ride home and charge the bike." Until charging stations are as common as parking meters, thats life on an EV. The inconvenience of having a vehicle tethered to the wall for hours at a time is too impractical. Where I see EV taking off is delivery service. The route is fixed. Drive the route, make the deliveries, park back at the warehouse, plug in and repeat the next day. Perfect! And no diesel fuel spills for me to low-side on!
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Let's talk about this again on 2/25/19. Zero Motorcycles will release an entirely new platform, that I suspect will crush the HD on any front that matters, even though they already have!
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com
Do you own a Zero Chad? Are you preparing to buy one?
I have seen a few videos now attempting to compare the Zero and the Harley based on components and fit and finish.
The Zero is described as having the components of a $7000 sporty bike. The FZ07 comes to mind. If it weren't for the engine the FZ07 would get just passing reviews.
The fit and finish on Harleys and the components advertised to be on this Livewire are much superior to the Zero. Time will tell if either company survives. The only Zero sellers near me are in the metropolitan areas where electric bikes and cars make sense.
There are a vast number of folks who might put 5000 miles total a year on all their forms of transportation combined.
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Here's a typical scenario that would keep me off an EV bike: You ride it to work, back and forth across town, just like always, 60 miles RT or so. Your leaving work when some nice young lady from data analysis says their all getting together for drinks at Louie's across town and would you like to join them? On your Griso, you say, "Sure, I'll need some gas first, see you in 20 minutes. On a bike like a LiveWire, you say, "uh, sorry, too far. Have to ride home and charge the bike." Until charging stations are as common as parking meters, thats life on an EV. The inconvenience of having a vehicle tethered to the wall for hours at a time is too impractical. Where I see EV taking off is delivery service. The route is fixed. Drive the route, make the deliveries, park back at the warehouse, plug in and repeat the next day. Perfect! And no diesel fuel spills for me to low-side on!
I like the electric vehicle concept, but what you lay out here (minus the nice young lady) is exactly the practical reason why I never bought one when I was commuting. I'd never be able to run an errand in the afternoon or during lunch that I hadn't thought of doing during the day, because there was never enough margin past the basic commute.
Now if I had been riding a bus every day, was satisfied with that degree of freedom, and used an EV to emulate and replace the bus ride, that would make sense. And for some people, it sounds like it will ...
Lannis
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I think once they get the recharging time down to something reasonable time cars will catch on because 99% of the driving public do not KNOW what is under the hood anymore, as long as they get in and can go that is all that really matters. Watch the new car ads its all about connecting.Not sure what you are connecting to but it seems important.And they never mention the motor. And most motorcyclist are just around town, short rides,and I hate to say now a days that is pretty much what I do.
Fixed it for you. :evil:
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Here's a typical scenario that would keep me off an EV bike: You ride it to work, back and forth across town, just like always, 60 miles RT or so. Your leaving work when some nice young lady from data analysis says their all getting together for drinks at Louie's across town and would you like to join them? On your Griso, you say, "Sure, I'll need some gas first, see you in 20 minutes. On a bike like a LiveWire, you say, "uh, sorry, too far. Have to ride home and charge the bike." Until charging stations are as common as parking meters, thats life on an EV. The inconvenience of having a vehicle tethered to the wall for hours at a time is too impractical. Where I see EV taking off is delivery service. The route is fixed. Drive the route, make the deliveries, park back at the warehouse, plug in and repeat the next day. Perfect! And no diesel fuel spills for me to low-side on!
Hmm , sounds like a safety feature .
Look fellas , battery tech is improving , we aren't going back to wood fired steam engines . It took a long time to get IC engines to work properly , and we really don't know what the future will bring . My best guess is that since the trend is to telecommuting anyway , and since most of us don't have a 90 mile commute anyway , that we will move inexorably towards E vehicles . Even out here in dumb old Oklahoma we are seeing more of them .
Dusty
Dusty
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There are a vast number of folks who might put 5000 miles total a year on all their forms of transportation combined. **
** CITATION NEEDED, as they say.
Actually the "average" American who currently owns or leases a vehicle (the rest, those in Manhattan or somewhere who use taxis and Metros, don't count in this context because they're not buying electric motorcycles) DRIVES 16,000 miles a year, just in an automobile or on a bike. The only demographic in that group that drives LESS than 5,000 miles a year is women over 65 years old. So "Vast" might not be a good adjective.
Lannis
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Another electric vehicle fail. Yawn. They should provide a portable bed and TV for you when you buy this bike, so you have something to do while it recharges LOL!
They will put charging stations at all the whorehouses and pubs.
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Everyone complains about the range. I contend the range isn't the problem, it's the "fill up" time back to !00%. 8 hours? 10? Buy some super-voltage charger and maybe cut it down to 6 hours? Is it winter, is it summer, got to factor in temperature, you know.. Outside the commute to and from work they just don't sound very practical (I know, most people don't think ANY motorcycle is practical). Man, I went on the ADV Live Wire post and made a few disparaging remarks about the Tesla being an "over-priced golf cart for the well-heeled." Man, those Kool-aid drinkers got pissed! Worse than BMW riders! Ha! I guess no one wants to be told their 100K car is a pricy golf cart. Even if they do use them just like one. I was surprised to learn the Tesla range is approacing 300 miles...under "optimal conditions" (like not in the mountains and not in the winter time!) That's pretty good, as long as you don't really need to go anywhere. But that still doesn't solve the long down time to recharge. Elec. vehicles aren't practical outside the city, and thank God I don't live in the city anymore. I like the look of the Live Wire, but like some here, think its just an expensive novelty. Well, I guess I'd better go out and plug in the EZ-Go....
I have to constantly plug in my smart phone to maintain it's charge. Get in the car, plug in the phone. Get to the office, plug in the phone. Get home, plug in the phone. Just another habit that has to be formed if you go electric.
Forget to plug in the phone? Dead and you are now off grid or you learn to carry a spare.
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I had the same issue with my phone. I ha a new battery put in and it seems like I hardly Cha ever charge it now. How long it countinues to perform at that level, I don’t know.
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** CITATION NEEDED, as they say.
Actually the "average" American who currently owns or leases a vehicle (the rest, those in Manhattan or somewhere who use taxis and Metros, don't count in this context because they're not buying electric motorcycles) DRIVES 16,000 miles a year, just in an automobile or on a bike. The only demographic in that group that drives LESS than 5,000 miles a year is women over 65 years old. So "Vast" might not be a good adjective.
Lannis
Here is an article on Averages. https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/01/25/the-average-american-drives-this-much-each-year-ho.aspx
The average American might log 13,474 miles, however, most of us aren't average. Statistically, for every one of us that drives 22,000 miles a year there is someone that drives 5000 miles a year. The breakpoint from my insurance company is 6000 miles a year or below to get a break in insurance rate.
There are 222 million registered drivers in the US.
This article says that only 16 percent of drivers even ask for a discount on their insurance. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/have-low-mileage-you-may_b_7338458
They are implying that potentially more people could qualify for a discount, but don't know to ask, but anyway that could still be 35,520,000 people who drive less than 5000 miles a year. That is a large number of people who would potentially buy into electric vehicles.
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I didn't read very post.....As a past electrical contractor it's apparent to me the current (lol) state of the electrical grid may have trouble dealing with high average quick chargers in the summer when AC loads alone tax the system...Tesla for example takes near 30 amps of 240 volts...Add that to the 30 amps of typical whole house AC load....And electrical distribution system improvements are costly and slo to happen...
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Positively shocking
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Range isn't so important to some early adopters of electric bikes. They just want to experience something different. From my own point-of-view, were I to buy something like this it would probably be paired with a cheapish ICE machine, one that would serve to cover any distance riding/touring-trips. Purchase price really isn't the issue for most seriously interested parties - it's the massive potential depreciation. Five years from now (..certainly not twenty) electric bikes could well be selling for half the price they do now, and that's a big hit for any 2019 customer to take.
Regarding range.. Battery technology is developing fast. This year's Formula E cars will use batteries that far outperform any previous offerings. The same technology will filter down across the industry: https://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/news/a30969/mclaren-wins-contract-to-make-batteries-for-formula-e/
..and now that the Asian market is showing an interest, anything's possible. I'll be keeping a keen look out for this one in 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0bo8w9Dsz0
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They are implying that potentially more people could qualify for a discount, but don't know to ask, but anyway that could still be 35,520,000 people who drive less than 5000 miles a year. That is a large number of people who would potentially buy into electric vehicles.
I'm not sure that I'm going to invest in EV stocks based on "implying", "could be", "anyway", and "potentially" based on a huffpost article!
But anyway ....
Lannis
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It's almost like some of us haven't noticed how dramatically things have changed in our lifetimes .
Why those new fangled cars won't work , man can't breathe if he is moving faster than 12 MPH .
Those microwave ovens are dangerous , who would want one ?
I got your dot com right here :laugh: This one is a personal favorite , as it was spoken at a Guzzi dinner circa 1997 by one of ours :laugh:
Dusty
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(https://photos.smugmug.com/General/i-RX8mcTs/0/99c0d18f/O/strawman.jpg) (https://lannisselz.smugmug.com/General/i-RX8mcTs/A)
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Yeah , in Virginia .
Dusty
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Here's a typical scenario that would keep me off an EV bike: You ride it to work, back and forth across town, just like always, 60 miles RT or so. Your leaving work when some nice young lady from data analysis says their all getting together for drinks at Louie's across town and would you like to join them? On your Griso, you say, "Sure, I'll need some gas first, see you in 20 minutes. On a bike like a LiveWire, you say, "uh, sorry, too far. Have to ride home and charge the bike." Until charging stations are as common as parking meters, thats life on an EV. The inconvenience of having a vehicle tethered to the wall for hours at a time is too impractical. Where I see EV taking off is delivery service. The route is fixed. Drive the route, make the deliveries, park back at the warehouse, plug in and repeat the next day. Perfect! And no diesel fuel spills for me to low-side on!
Mike, this is why I've been watching electric bikes for several years now, and waiting for the tech to catch up with my lifestyle.
Living in upstate NY, I can ride a motorcycle about 6 months of the year in relative comfort. My commute is 42 miles each way. The batteries are the weak link in an electric vehicle as of today. Motors and controllers have been pretty much ironed out. But batteries, regardless of chemistry, will last longer (more charge/discharge cycles) if you don't drain them below 30% charge on a regular basis. Not draining them below 50% charge gives the longest life, but the size/weight/cost of the pack is always a deciding factor.
A Zero S, with the 14.4 battery and a 3.6 Powertank option gives 18 kWh of energy storage. With the riding I do going back and forth to work, my round trip would use about 12kWh of power... so about 2/3 of that bikes total. Or, in another way, I would use 84 miles out of a 120 mile effective range. So, yes, that would cover my needs for today, and still allow for some side trips and be able to make it back home to charge.
But.... here's the nail heading for the heart. Over time, batteries degrade in their ability to store energy. By the time a battery has gotten to where it only stores 80% of it's original charge, it's time to put it out to pasture. Again, for me, that would barely cover my commute, but then I'd be running the batteries nearly to zero just to get home. Which degrades the remaining capacity faster. This situation is called a death spiral.
I would love an electric bike as a mileage sponge. But, they aren't up to the level I need.... yet. That said, it seems they're getting closer every day, so in another couple years when I'm looking at getting a new bike... an electric may be on the table for me. Time, as always, will tell.
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New technology has to provide intrinsic advantages over the technology it wants to replace. People shouldn't have to change to accomodate the technology. Technology must change to accommodate people, if it is to succeed.
Trucks and Automobiles and Tractors replaced horses in the early 20th century because they were cheaper to maintain, and could go farther and faster while hauling more. Livery Stables were quickly replaced with Filling Stations. The initial cost of automobiles dropped dramatically with Ford and General Motors perfecting mass production in the second decade of the 20th Century. So cars became affordable for the masses, AND were cheaper to maintain, AND could go farther and faster while hauling more. The use of working horses plummeted dramatically during the 1920s.
Electric vehicles will have to provide the same intrinsic value over internal combustion vehicles if electric is ever going to be more than a curiosity. Electric automobiles have been around as long as internal combustion vehicles. They haven't yet been able to provide the same advantage over internal combustion, as internal combustion provided over horses.
Maybe they will. But until they perform better for the same, or less $$$$, electric automobiles, trucks, and tractors will not replace internal combustion conveyances.
For road-going automobiles and trucks, I believe "hybrid" is the way of the (near) future. It's the only variant of electric vehicle which has been broadly produced by a number of automakers, and they are versatile enough to integrate into the existing infrastructure, if a person needs to go farther than the battery will take them.
1891
William Morrison of Des Moines, Iowa builds the first successful electric automobile in the United States.
A handful of different makes and models of electric cars are exhibited in Chicago.
1897
The first electric taxis hit the streets of New York City early in the year. The Pope Manufacturing Company of Connecticut becomes the first large-scale American electric automobile manufacturer.
1899
Believing that electricity will run autos in the future, Thomas Alva Edison begins his mission to create a long-lasting, powerful battery for commercial automobiles. Though his research yields some improvements to the alkaline battery, he ultimately abandons his quest a decade later.
1900
The electric automobile is in its heyday. Of the 4,192 cars produced in the United States 28 percent are powered by electricity, and electric autos represent about one-third of all cars found on the roads of New York City, Boston, and Chicago.
Henry Ford introduces the mass-produced and gasoline-powered Model T, which will have a profound effect on the U.S. automobile market.
1912
Charles Kettering invents the first practical electric automobile starter. Kettering's invention makes gasoline-powered autos more alluring to consumers by eliminating the unwieldy hand crank starter and ultimately helps pave the way for the electric car's demise.
1920
During the 1920s the electric car ceases to be a viable commercial product. The electric car's downfall is attributable to a number of factors, including the desire for longer distance vehicles, their lack of horsepower, and the ready availability of gasoline.
1966
Congress introduces the earliest bills recommending use of electric vehicles as a means of reducing air pollution. A Gallup poll indicates that 33 million Americans are interested in electric vehicles.
1970s
Concerns about the soaring price of oil -- peaking with the Arab Oil Embargo of 1973 -- and a growing environmental movement result in renewed interests in electric cars from both consumers and producers.
1972
Victor Wouk, the "Godfather of the Hybrid," builds the first full-powered, full-size hybrid vehicle out of a 1972 Buick Skylark provided by General Motors (G.M.) for the 1970 Federal Clean Car Incentive Program. The Environmental Protection Association later kills the program in 1976.
Vanguard-Sebring's CitiCar makes its debut at the Electric Vehicle Symposium in Washington, D.C. The CitiCar has a top speed of over 30 mph and a reliable warm-weather range of 40 miles. By 1975 the company is the sixth largest automaker in the U.S. but is dissolved only a few years later.
1975
The U.S. Postal Service purchases 350 electric delivery jeeps from AM General, a division of AMC, to be used in a test program.
1976
Congress passes the Electric and Hybrid Vehicle Research, Development, and Demonstration Act. The law is intended to spur the development of new technologies including improved batteries, motors, and other hybrid-electric components.
1988
Roger Smith, CEO of G.M. , agrees to fund research efforts to build a practical consumer electric car. G.M. teams up with California's AeroVironment to design what would become the EV1, which one employee called "the world's most efficient production vehicle." Some electric vehicle enthusiasts have speculated that the EV1 was never undertaken as a serious commercial venture by the large automaker.
1990
California passes its Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) Mandate, which requires two percent of the state's vehicles to have no emissions by 1998 and 10 percent by 2003. The law is repeatedly weakened over the next decade to reduce the number of pure ZEVs it requires.
1997
Toyota unveils the Prius -- the world's first commercially mass-produced and marketed hybrid car -- in Japan. Nearly 18,000 units are sold during the first production year.
1997 - 2000
A few thousand all-electric cars (such as Honda's EV Plus, G.M.'s EV1, Ford's Ranger pickup EV, Nissan's Altra EV, Chevy's S-10 EV, and Toyota's RAV4 EV) are produced by big car manufacturers, but most of them are available for lease only. All of the major automakers' advanced all-electric production programs will be discontinued by the early 2000s.
2002
G.M. and DaimlerChrysler sue the California Air Resources Board (CARB) to repeal the ZEV mandate first passed in 1990. The Bush Administration joins that suit.
Crushed EV1 electric cars Crushed EV1 electric cars2003
G.M. announces that it will not renew leases on its EV1 cars saying it can no longer supply parts to repair the vehicles and that it plans to reclaim the cars by the end of 2004.
2005
On February 16, electric vehicle enthusiasts begin a "Don't Crush" vigil to stop G.M. from demolishing 78 impounded EV1s in Burbank, California. The vigil ends twenty-eight days later when G.M. removes the cars from the facility. In the film "Who Killed the Electric Car" G.M. spokesman Dave Barthmuss states that the EV1s are to be recycled, not just crushed.
2006
Tesla Motors publicly unveils the ultra-sporty Tesla Roadster at the San Francisco International Auto Show in November. The first production Roadsters will be sold in 2008 with a base price listing of $98,950.
http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/223/electric-car-timeline.html
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^^^ All true brother Mike , except traffic laws and cultural norms had to change dramatically to allow for the introduction of the automobile . Then we needed to build more paved roads , service stations , repair shops , parts houses , all of the changes to infrastructure that allowed for the automobile to flourish .
Dusty
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^^^ All true brother Mike , except traffic laws and cultural norms had to change dramatically to allow for the introduction of the automobile . Then we needed to build more paved roads , service stations , repair shops , parts houses , all of the changes to infrastructure that allowed for the automobile to flourish .
Dusty
That's true too.
And when a technology comes along to replace IC engines that makes the same leap in functionality, usability, and economy as the automobile was over the horse (absolutely revolutionary changes, then), then the descendants of the same people that replaced livery stables with gas stations and tack shops with NAPA stores will do the same to accommodate that technology (electric vehicles etc.) .....
Lannis
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That's true too.
And when a technology comes along to replace IC engines that makes the same leap in functionality, usability, and economy as the automobile was over the horse (absolutely revolutionary changes, then), then the descendants of the same people that replaced livery stables with gas stations and tack shops with NAPA stores will do the same to accommodate that technology (electric vehicles etc.) .....
Lannis
Also true , likely to happen in the future , probably after all of the curmudgeons are long gone . Change is a constant , no amount of teeth gnashing has ever prevented change .
Dusty
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Also true , likely to happen in the future , probably after all of the curmudgeons are long gone . Change is a constant , no amount of teeth gnashing has ever prevented change .
Dusty
The curmudgeons are NEVER all gone. Every time a curmudgeon goes, one (sometimes two) comes along to take his place, just due to the natural development of wisdom and experience and remembrance of history.
The number of curmudgeons is a constant and maybe growing number, mainly because although CHANGE will always occur, change in the areas that people THINK things will change does NOT always occur.
People have sworn over the years that huge changes will occur in some areas, and documented it in the (still available) popular press, things like flying cars and electric cars and Mars colonies and jet backpacks and 200-year lifespans and personal helicopters. For every one who said "Them dang horseless carriages will never make it" (and those people are theoretical and seldom documented), there are 20 who would write down things like "By 1985, the world will be completely out of oil" and PROVE it.
The trick is not to say "Well they said backyard fusion reactors would be a 21st century reality, and they were wrong, so electric cars won't make it either" OR to say "I heard about someone who said microwave ovens would poison food and now he's got one, so electric cars are coming, count on it" ...
.... but to look at the actual situation, along with the history, and the practicalities, and make a judgment call from that (which there are many of on here) and tell folks what conclusions you've drawn FROM THAT DATA, not just "it's coming so lay back and learn to enjoy it". Everything is NOT coming, just some .. and the very valid and debatable question is "ARE EVs one of those things?"
Lannis
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For road-going automobiles and trucks, I believe "hybrid" is the way of the (near) future. It's the only variant of electric vehicle which has been broadly produced by a number of automakers, and they are versatile enough to integrate into the existing infrastructure, if a person needs to go farther than the battery will take them.
I think thats the thing right there.. At this point it really solves a lot of the issue of pure electric.. I think that in the past they have been missing the boat a bit.. IMHO the gas engines have been far too big, and with the advantage of the electric motors power output, using a much smaller engine as a charging unit is the key.. having a small engine to supply the charge when needed, and in auto use provide some extra heat for winter driving would be the best of both worlds. With the tech out there today, and the systems to be able to seamlessly start, stop, and control a small engine, the skys the limit..
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^^^ All true brother Mike , except traffic laws and cultural norms had to change dramatically to allow for the introduction of the automobile . Then we needed to build more paved roads , service stations , repair shops , parts houses , all of the changes to infrastructure that allowed for the automobile to flourish .
Dusty
Electric was a player in automobiles and trucks from 1891 to 1920. Then it wasn't. It could not keep up with the "cheaper, faster, farther, more" of the internal combustion engine. Engineers and Scientists have been dreaming of and building electric-powered conveyances since the 1820s or 1830s. First: Steam Power kicked electric's arse, then: gasoline and diesel kicked electric's arse.
- Livery stables changed to gas stations because of consumer demand: People were transitioning to autos and needed service.
- Roads were improved for national security, improving farm to market access, and consumer demand: Our military (Transcontinental Motor Convoy) realized in 1919 how lacking our road system was. Farmers were buying trucks and tractors and needed better access to rail heads. More people were buying automobiles and wanted better roadways (Good Roads Movement).
One big deficiency in the early 20th century was our electric grid. You could pump gas or diesel by hand without electricity. So, a motorist could refuel way back in the rough and uncut, with nary a thought or care of whether the filling station had electric.
Now, today, our electric grid coverage is extensive. Adding "pay to charge" recharge equipment at gas stations and truck stops is doable. The technology is there.
What isn't there is battery capacity. After over 100 years, batteries still can't provide the range or the quick recharge capability that any old automobile can.
When (if) batteries can provide 300-400 miles range AND quick recharge times similar to pumping 12 or 15 gallons of petrol into a car, THEN we will see the infrastructure for their recharging added to existing gas stations and truck stops..
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I rode the thing. I talked to the engineers for 4 hours. I talked to the marketing people, and the design people.
This is not a checkbox. This is a very serious entry into an untapped market.
FWIW, in the after-ride opinion survey, asked 'what would you pay for this' I said ~$18k. I think the price reflects the balance between initial production numbers, red ink, and demographics.
I said I'd have the first one that day, and I still mean to. It's that cool, and I haven't bought but 2 new motorcycles in my entire life, both for racing.
Given that I rarely ride more than 100 miles a day, distance isn't an issue. What it feels like on those short trips is everything- otherwise, I'll take the car, right? No gas, no starter, no clutch or shifter.
This bike, given the ability to remove the controls, is the absolute in Hooliganism.
From the only one in the entire thread who knows what he's talking about.
Much of the criticism from the peanut gallery, as noted elsewhere, is coming from a position of not being able to afford one, an improper metric of judgment, and the same for those who criticize Teslas. If you know anything about cars, you'd have understood years ago what an amazing achievement the Model S is, and that it is a *very* good car indeed. And I'm not a fan; just a serious carguy who can separate what *I* like and can afford from what is good and true. And Teslas are that; and the Livewire looks like a terrific piece of engineering, well beyond what Zero does.
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No TWA, I don't have an electric bike, and I am not in the market for one. I don't doubt that the HD has better fit and finish. But both will go very fast, very quickly, one just goes a lot farther, for a lot less money. If I were going to look seriously at buying an electric, I wouldn't even consider the HD for stated reasons. It goes without saying, but I'm saying it anyway, that's just me, you and others may very well see it differently.
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Wow Kristian, that was really bad form. :sad:
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Much of the criticism from the peanut gallery, as noted elsewhere, is coming from a position of not being able to afford one, an improper metric of judgment, and the same for those who criticize Teslas. If you know anything about cars, you'd have understood years ago what an amazing achievement the Model S is, and that it is a *very* good car indeed. And I'm not a fan; just a serious carguy who can separate what *I* like and can afford from what is good and true. And Teslas are that; and the Livewire looks like a terrific piece of engineering, well beyond what Zero does.
We were discussing "Hot Rods" on another bike list once. There was a guy was was hugely into Hot Rods, really liked them, always boosting them. The thread got to discussing whether a Hot Rod (the generic kind - '32 Ford body, 350 crate engine, Nova subframe, chopped, frenched, etc) was "worth" $90,000 or so. I and others said "No way is there anything about that vehicle that would have me pay even $9,000 for it, much less $90,000."
He frothed up and said exactly what you're saying here ("of not being able to afford one, an improper metric of judgment, and the same for those who criticize Teslas. If you know anything about cars, you'd have understood years ago what an amazing achievement").
Accused us of being jealous because we were too poor to afford one, of not having the judgment to understand what was "good" and what was not, and of not understanding the level of craftsmanship that went into one of them.
Proper Philistines, we were. It didn't sound very good then, and it doesn't sound very good now ....
Lannis
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Once again , change is a constant . What we consider mundane today was radical at one time . E cars may never take over , notice I never said they would , but they will fill a niche . As for battery tech not improving rapidly enough , cordless tools are an example of just how far we have come on that front . heck fellas , how long has it been since we moved from old style lead acid wet cell batteries to where we are now ? The change is already happening , but like all change it happens at a pace that can be hard to observe W/O looking at the arc of history . We have gone from the horse and buggy to the IC engine in a pretty short period of time . What I am saying is that it is very easy to get "stuck" in an era , while the world moves right along changing all the while . Change makes a lot of folks uncomfortable , and that is OK , but it isn't 1950 anymore .
Dusty
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Politics are not allowed here...but...there's no doubt they will play a big role in the acceptance of electric vehicles..
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If you know anything about cars, you'd have understood years ago what an amazing achievement the Model S is, and that it is a *very* good car indeed.
A great car, it may be, but it ain't no model T.
Electric will have an impact when their price, performance, range, and refueling time matches the performance of the internal combustion cars they're trying to replace.
In the USA, that means a $36,000 new car with a range of about 300 miles which can be refueled in about five minutes anywhere in the USA for about $25 for another 300 miles of use.
There remains work to be done.
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I'm not sure that I'm going to invest in EV stocks based on "implying", "could be", "anyway", and "potentially" based on a huffpost article!
But anyway ....
Lannis
who said anything about investing in EV stocks? What a leap! You have some skill there Lannis in the art of deflection and reading into something that is not there.
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who said anything about investing in EV stocks? What a leap! You have some skill there Lannis in the art of deflection and reading into something that is not there.
I didn't literally mean "EV stock shares"; I don't even know what they would be. I was using it as a metaphor for "Do you REALLY believe in it?", or a nice way of saying "Put your money where your mouth is", i.e. make a commitment to something that you are advocating.
I was just saying that I wouldn't be doing that.
Lannis
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Based on many of the comments in this thread I find it truly amazing that companies like Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, Infinity, Acura, Cadillac, etc. even exist. Why buy any of those when you can buy Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Chevy, etc.
Why would anyone in their right mind pay $30,000 or more for a vehicle when you can have a vehicle for $15,000.
That is the gist of the naysayers of the Livewire.
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Based on many of the comments in this thread I find it truly amazing that companies like Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, Infinity, Acura, Cadillac, etc. even exist. Why buy any of those when you can buy Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Chevy, etc.
Why would anyone in their right mind pay $30,000 or more for a vehicle when you can have a vehicle for $15,000.
That is the gist of the naysayers of the Livewire.
Average new car purchase price in The USA is stated as $36,000. That car will go 300-400 miles on 12-16 gallons of gasoline, and will take about five minutes to refuel for $25-$35. That is what electric needs to be, to be competitive and make a dent in the USA auto marketplace.
Average new motorcycle price in The USA is probably $12,000-$14,000 (couldn't find the current exact number). That bike will go 150-200 miles on 4-5 gallons of gasoline and refuel in minutes for $8-$12. That is what electric needs to be, to be competitive and make a dent in the USA motorcycle marketplace.
Otherwise, they're just interesting oddities. Like the odd Bentley or Ferrari one sees on his daily commute...
Another way to look at it is:
I have $30,000 budget and I'm buying a motorcycle. What can I buy for $30,000 ?? Well, you can buy just about anything you want, as $30,000 is near top of the range for production motorcycles in The USA. With $30,000 to spend, a person can buy fantastic Harleys, Indians, BMWs, Ducatis, MV Agustas, etc. that perform better in every way than this new electric conveyance from H-D.
Or, I've have $75,000 to spend on a new car. Tesla has its Model S, but what else can I buy with that money? Well, the water is real damned deep at that price point. The list is long. The Tesla is just an interesting oddity in that segment...
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Based on many of the comments in this thread I find it truly amazing that companies like Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, Infinity, Acura, Cadillac, etc. even exist. Why buy any of those when you can buy Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Chevy, etc.
Why would anyone in their right mind pay $30,000 or more for a vehicle when you can have a vehicle for $15,000.
That is the gist of the naysayers of the Livewire.
I think there's a lot of truth to that. Most of the naysayers (that's sort of a pejorative, slanted term, but let it go) are ONLY saying:
1) I would not buy one.
2) I think it's a mistake for HD to be producing it.
3) I don't think they will sell well.
There's nothing wrong with anyone saying any of that, plus they are absolutely right about point (1) and MAY be right about point (2) if they have judged correctly, and they might be.
Nobody is saying that HD should be forced to not produce an electric motorcycle; besides, that would be silly. If someone wants to buy an electric HD at a massive price for the same reason they would buy a Range Rover or Tesla, then let 'em. (No one argues with that). I don't think they'll become popular, and I think HD will lose their shirt on them. (Lots of people are arguing against THAT! Vive la difference!)
Lannis
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Average new car purchase price in The USA is stated as $36,000. That car will go 300-400 miles on 12-16 gallons of gasoline, and will take about five minutes to refuel for $25-$35. That is what electric needs to be, to be competitive and make a dent in the USA auto marketplace.
Average new motorcycle price in The USA is probably $12,000-$14,000 (couldn't find the current exact number). That bike will go 150-200 miles on 4-5 gallons of gasoline and refuel in minutes for $8-$12. That is what electric needs to be, to be competitive and make a dent in the USA motorcycle marketplace.
Otherwise, they're just interesting oddities. Like the odd Bentley or Ferrari one sees on his daily commute...
Another way to look at it is:
I have $30,000 budget and I'm buying a motorcycle. What can I buy for $30,000 ?? Well, you can buy just about anything you want, as $30,000 is near top of the range for production motorcycles in The USA. With $30,000 to spend, a person can buy fantastic Harleys, Indians, BMWs, Ducatis, MV Agustas, etc. that perform better in every way than this new electric conveyance from H-D.
Or, I've have $75,000 to spend on a new car. Tesla has its Model S, but what else can I buy with that money? Well, the water is real damned deep at that price point. The list is long. The Tesla is just an interesting oddity in that segment...
This is where my economic side creates the dilemma for me. At $30,000 I could buy a nicely equipped Miata, or a nice used Roadster from other manufacturers that would cost me less to own and operate than a $30,000 motorcycle.
At $75,000 I could buy a cabin out in the woods or a pretty decent RV.
The point being is that many people who spend $30,000 on motorcycles and $75,000 on cars already own $500,000 homes, have investment portfolios, etc. Of course there are those who are enthusiasts and the car and bike become much higher priorities than the nice house or investment portfolio, but hopefully that is a small percentage.
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I too have ridden the prototype Livewire bike a few years back when HD was touring the US demoing the bike. Even as a prototype, it was very well finished and rode pretty much like an internal combustion engine bike. It even had mirrors that were completely useless except for looking at your elbows. I ran it in eco mode, and the acceleration was really amazing, as was the breaking. You did have to pay attention as we were in a group and if the person in front of you chopped the throttle the bike slowed down abruptly. I think Zero added a feature to flash the brake light on there bikes when a rider does that and does not use the brakes to warn the drivers behind.
I liked it. I also spent time with the marketing folks who were there to talk about the bike. The only real downside was range, how fast it could recharge and price.
At the price HD is quoting, it is for a fairly small market segment - rather like the Tesla Model S, which really runs around 100,000 plus as no one I know who bought them bought a base model - always the big battery, fully loaded model. They will most likely sell some.
Electric is interesting, but unless the mileage and recharge capability match current ICE cars I don't think they will take off - unless forced by government decree. I don't have the link, but I did read a decent write up of what a fast charge station - 6 pump equivilant - would need in electric power 24/7. It turns out it would need a dedicated sub-station (sized for the station) for each one to handle the potential load. And that would require a lot of infrastructure improvements that would cost a lot of money.
I am not saying impossilbe - but I think it will take longer than the true believers want it too.
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On hybrids-for years I thought I was clever thinking they couldn't be sensible since the non plug-in types still got their energy from the gasoline on board. Only much later did I realize it was all about pumping losses. So rather than compare 2 cars of similar displacement one should look at performance, as the hybrid can give better acceleration with lower displacement, and thus lower pumping loss. Same concept as turbocharging with a different technology.
It's more than just pumping losses, its also the fact that it uses regenerative braking to reclaim kinetic energy otherwise lost as heat in the brakes in stop and go traffic. Also, cars like the Prius, even if they had a conventional drive train would still be pretty efficient due to the aerodynamics, and low rolling resistance tires.
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Here's a typical scenario that would keep me off an EV bike: You ride it to work, back and forth across town, just like always, 60 miles RT or so. Your leaving work when some nice young lady from data analysis says their all getting together for drinks at Louie's across town and would you like to join them? On your Griso, you say, "Sure, I'll need some gas first, see you in 20 minutes. On a bike like a LiveWire, you say, "uh, sorry, too far. Have to ride home and charge the bike." Until charging stations are as common as parking meters, thats life on an EV. The inconvenience of having a vehicle tethered to the wall for hours at a time is too impractical. Where I see EV taking off is delivery service. The route is fixed. Drive the route, make the deliveries, park back at the warehouse, plug in and repeat the next day. Perfect! And no diesel fuel spills for me to low-side on!
We have charging stations where I work, so, I could top it off while I'm working.
I'll bet plenty of other employers to too.
As for the commercial delivery vehicles, I can see them having removable battery packs like some forklifts do. Run a route, empty the truck, come back, swap the battery pack while loading the cargo in the truck, repeat.
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I didn't read very post.....As a past electrical contractor it's apparent to me the current (lol) state of the electrical grid may have trouble dealing with high average quick chargers in the summer when AC loads alone tax the system...Tesla for example takes near 30 amps of 240 volts...Add that to the 30 amps of typical whole house AC load....And electrical distribution system improvements are costly and slo to happen...
Those with an EV that has plenty of range for the round trip to work will likely just charge at night. At least in the summer time, load on the grid at night is lower during the day.
But, as more and more homes go all electric (heat pump for heat), I can see a situation where this is inverted in the winter time, and peak demand for power is at night.
Widespread adoption of EV's will present a problem for the electric grid. Hopefully, the utilities are upgrading now.
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Those with an EV that has plenty of range for the round trip to work will likely just charge at night. At least in the summer time, load on the grid at night is lower during the day.
But, as more and more homes go all electric (heat pump for heat), I can see a situation where this is inverted in the winter time, and peak demand for power is at night.
Widespread adoption of EV's will present a problem for the electric grid. Hopefully, the utilities are upgrading now.
There might be reasonable upgrades in the next 30 years...or not...High power transmission lines take up a lot space and are brutal expensive... And what's going to be used to generate more power ? The windmills that blow up? More nuclear? Perhaps an actual attempt to use our garbage as fuel?
Perhaps if consumers want electric cars then there will be a reason$$$ to solve potential problems...
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It's more than just pumping losses, its also the fact that it uses regenerative braking to reclaim kinetic energy otherwise lost as heat in the brakes in stop and go traffic. Also, cars like the Prius, even if they had a conventional drive train would still be pretty efficient due to the aerodynamics, and low rolling resistance tires.
Frankly the regenerative braking is pretty minor for what's on the street.
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As I said on ADV, people have the right to spend their own money however they please ( without my tax money used as a subsidy, thank you!) They can buy an expensive EV or a car that burns vegetable oil, for all I care. Not being willing to part with one's hard earned dollars to purchase something and not being able to afford it are two very different things.
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RER how many wind turbines have “blown up” in the past few years?
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There might be reasonable upgrades in the next 30 years...or not...High power transmission lines take up a lot space and are brutal expensive... And what's going to be used to generate more power ? The windmills that blow up? More nuclear? Perhaps an actual attempt to use our garbage as fuel?
Perhaps if consumers want electric cars then there will be a reason$$$ to solve potential problems...
There is a lot of solar capacity being installed across the company. To do with that, and wind for that matter, we're going to need energy storage.
Tesla, and likely other companies, and working on utility class energy storage projects.
But, the bulk of it will likely come from natural gas in the near term.
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I like the idea of electric bikes (heck, I'm a long-time "Akira" fan). We have a coupe of electric golf carts adapted to farm needs. They are our most frequently used tools! We're using a great deal of Stihl's 36 volt lawn care equipment, too. Folks are anxious for a little instant gratification, but this sort of technology development is a slow process; at least in modern circles. We'll have electric conveyances soon. Geez, we might have wireless power transmission by then...
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RER how many wind turbines have “blown up” in the past few years?
About 4000, a very small percentage of the total...But it's becoming clear ,wind turbines require more scheduled maintenance than anticipated..You can google the question and get pages of info...
Until AC power can be stored economically, wind power on a large scale is just not the answer...I for one, think they are ugly...
The internal combustion engine future is not stagnant..There are promising new functional designs featuring more power with less fuel consumption in smaller packages. It could be more likely that these new tech IC engines will be mass produced before enough changes happen to electric vehicles to make them the majority power plant...
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RER how many wind turbines have “blown up” in the past few years?
At least one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlq0B_ucsYo
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I like the idea of electric bikes (heck, I'm a long-time "Akira" fan). We have a coupe of electric golf carts adapted to farm needs. They are our most frequently used tools! We're using a great deal of Stihl's 36 volt lawn care equipment, too. Folks are anxious for a little instant gratification, but this sort of technology development is a slow process; at least in modern circles. We'll have electric conveyances soon. Geez, we might have wireless power transmission by then...
This is where cordless electric shines IMO. Less maintenance. Less noise. Of course we had cordless electric grass trimmers in the 1970s. I remember my dad handing my brothers and me hand powered lawn scissors to trim 100s of feet of grass along our terraced property. Of course we also collected and carried all the fieldstone that built the walls to create the terraces. Then in the late 70s he got the hand held electric trimmer. When the boys moved out he bought himself a lawn tractor to replace us and the manual mowers. LOL!
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At least one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlq0B_ucsYo
Probably a failure of the safety controls that are designed to change the pitch of the blades to keep the speed controlled.
It looks like it spun to fast, resulting in blade failure from excessive centripetal force.
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Wow Kristian, that was really bad form. :sad:
Why exactly?
The sentiment is common as muck--and has been expressed here before, in this thread and the one about Eagan's new $50K bike. I also have some of it--I wonder who on earth would buy silly $300K unreliable Ferraris, $3 mill. Bugattis, or think folks who pay $100K for Laverda SFC750s or '74 Ducati 750SSs are nuts and that the prices are silly for such slow, old, cranky, bikes. Well, that comes in part from not being able to afford one. My MC purse does not stretch to $30K bikes either, and I do not find the HD good value, but, I understand the pricing structure and that $30K is an easy drop in the bucket for many. Or $300K. Most of us criticize things we cannot afford and deride them as silly etc. But, it's nice to be aware of what we're doing.
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Lannis did a nice job of explaining what I meant on reply 125.
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Probably a failure of the safety controls that are designed to change the pitch of the blades to keep the speed controlled.
It looks like it spun to fast, resulting in blade failure from excessive centripetal force.
That's a typical failure from an over speeding prop.. There are also a braking system...But in real live stuff does happen...And what the mechanic in the field sees and what's reported might be different...Huge generators weighing dozens of tons anchored into concrete in the controlled environment of generating plants can run for years and are easily observed...It's may a lot different for smaller units a few hundred feet off the earth subject to the weather...
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Lannis did a nice job of explaining what I meant on reply 125.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/General/i-TSWvSNM/0/f8eee130/O/That%2Bis%2Bthe%2Bbest%2Bsecurity%2Bcamera%2Bfootage%2Bi%2Bhave%2Bever%2B_a0d3b8321a9015c2e8a6505a60641a94.jpg) (https://lannisselz.smugmug.com/General/i-TSWvSNM/A)
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Nope nope nope . Clean up on aisle 9
Dusty
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Let's talk about this again on 2/25/19. Zero Motorcycles will release an entirely new platform, that I suspect will crush the HD on any front that matters, even though they already have!
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com
:thumb:
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I think I found the electric Guzzi emblem...
(https://www.dailydot.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Screen-Shot-2018-06-21-at-2.52.45-PM.png)
Having a redhead in the sales pamphlet won't hurt!
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Hah, sweet.....
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I think I found the electric Guzzi emblem...
(https://www.dailydot.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Screen-Shot-2018-06-21-at-2.52.45-PM.png)
Having a redhead in the sales pamphlet won't hurt!
j
Now I know why that movie made a Billion Dollars worldwide.
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Wow, have I been hearing THAT for a long time. We DON'T yet know that it's coming, we DON'T have to start embracing the idea, and the internal combustion engine as we know it will still be the main mode of motive force on the roads for our great-grandchildren .....
:thumb: And that is the fact Jack
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Hmmm .........what else can you buy in a motorcycle for $29,700......or even half of that?
Simple....stupid price , impractical tech, kinda ugly , no soul .... and HD will loose a lot more money than they already have .....2 years bye bye
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Lightning have just announced a follow-up bike to its ($40,000) LS218 - at under $13,000. It's addressed a lot of E-bike issues, and is available from March: https://electrek.co/2019/01/17/lightning-electric-motorcycle-strike/
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Hmmm .........what else can you buy in a motorcycle for $29,700......or even half of that?
Simple....stupid price , impractical tech, kinda ugly , no soul .... and HD will loose a lot more money than they already have .....2 years bye bye
How many one to two year bikes have the Japanese produced?
Many.
I'm glad Harley is trying new things. I'm glad the Japanese try new things. Of course the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers have other business ventures to keep them in the black which allows them the freedom to explore new opportunities.
Honda showed a self balancing bike. Yamaha came out with the Niken
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A sneak look at Lightning's new 'Strike' electric m'cycle mentioned above. Covered in stickers for road-testing, but showing some of its features. If the reports are true, this could tempt many away from ICE. It's to be unveiled some time this month.
(https://i.ibb.co/x8z82cR/lightning-strike-prototype.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x8z82cR)
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A sneak look at Lightning's new 'Strike' electric m'cycle mentioned above. Covered in stickers for road-testing, but showing some of its features. If the reports are true, this could tempt many away from ICE. It's to be unveiled some time this month.
(https://i.ibb.co/x8z82cR/lightning-strike-prototype.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x8z82cR)
Interesting , although I am sceptical of the price point/performance claims . Also , from what I know about battery tech , the battery life will be seriously reduced if the fast charge option gets employed very often .
Dusty
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HD just made a public announcement on Fox News. The new electric MC. I’ll try to remember some of the particulars.
30,000 bucks
0-60 time 3 seconds
100 mile range on the highway and 120 city
They are looking to develop a new market of buyers, the well to do and youth.
Personally I’m not interested but this is definitely “ plowing new ground “ as us older country boys say. I wish them the best of luck.
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Yes indeed....It's a Greenie...going to make the V11 Guzzi Greenie...green with envy!
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My nephew the Harley salesman is no longer selling them . He tendered his *I quit* Friday morning after 10 years of being one of the top salesman in the country , averaging over 300 units per year sold . We were discussing the Livewire , he laughed out loud at the idea that Harley is gonna sell these bikes at 30 K . The MoCo is being run by people who simply don't understand that market . Heck , Zero MC's is and has been the industry leader in the E bike market for years , they build a superior product for less money . Remember , the Livewire was developed from the old Brammo , which wouldn't sell either , the MoCo would be better served by building an affordable product , or maybe take all of their cash and invest it in Pork futures :laugh:
Dusty
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The affordable Harley electric already exists.
(https://i.ibb.co/0qxR89z/P11201247.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0qxR89z)
image hosting service (https://imgbb.com/)
$100, free shipping
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The price point is way out of line.... but then again , when has selling a slower, lower-tech version of a modern motorcycle for 20% more $$ than the competition ever stopped HD?
Their loyalists don't want it, their target market can't afford it, and it's barely even middle of the pack performance-wise among it's competitors.
They are gonna take quite a hit on this, then say "the market isn't ready", "the tech isnt there yet"
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I don't think the traditional Harley market is the target market for this, electric lifestyle doesn't mesh with doo rags and vests anyway.
It's going to be folks who have money (think Tesla owners or now high end Audi, BMW, Volvo electric/hybrid) owners who want a "Harley" looking bike, but that is "green in nature". That new crowd has the money to spend, whether it's $20K, $25K or $30K.
It might be a total flop, but I think they are banking on a totally different class of folks to buy this bike.
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Remember , the Livewire was developed from the old Brammo....
Brammo was bought by Polaris (Victory). Did Harley buy the IP from them?
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But the Tesla, unlike the HD, delivers the goods for its higher price point. The Live wire is priced about double what it should be bast on performance. I get HD feels their name entitles them to ask more than a company like Zero, but they are dreaming if they believe this is going to work.
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It's going to be folks who have money (think Tesla owners or now high end Audi, BMW, Volvo electric/hybrid) owners who want a "Harley" looking bike, but that is "green in nature".
This crowd doesn't exist. Tesla-Audi-BMW-Volvo buyers are sophisticated people and in their minds the Harley brand means heavy, inefficient, overpriced 1960s technology.
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I think it's high time for an affordable...motori zed...two-wheel alternative like..."THE BIG KAHUNA!!" :laugh: :grin: :wink:
On fleaBAY now...for $299....(as a kit!!) :rolleyes: :shocked: :huh: :cool: :thumb: :boozing:
(https://i.ibb.co/MgzdKqX/Screen-Shot-2019-07-15-at-9-41-59-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/MgzdKqX)
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The affordable Harley electric already exists.
(https://i.ibb.co/0qxR89z/P11201247.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0qxR89z)
image hosting service (https://imgbb.com/)
$100, free shipping
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb: That's "THE LITTLE KAHUNA!!" ( :laugh: :grin: :wink: - See my post... :rolleyes: :shocked: :huh:
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It’s not the price, it’s the concept.
An electric motorcycle?
Hell no !!!!
Not even for free....
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I’m certain you have never ridden one.
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Electric vehicles are the rage, everyone is coming out with one. I was behind a Tesla the other day and his license plate read "NOGAS" Here in Illinois it should read, 48% low sulfur coal 49% enriched Uranium and 3% other.
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This announcement is a bit old...the livewire has been news for awhile.
These are never intended to sell in large numbers. They know that. They are laying the groundwork for electric models that have a price range...this is designed to be at the top of that range.
View this bike like the Vrod Destroyer... they want one on the floor. They don't have much intention of selling a bunch of them. It was a planned failure with other motives...like getting the idea of an electric bike in front of the faithful.
HD is about 10 years behind getting new blood. The ADV bike and naked street fighter are grasping for dying market share a few years too late.
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It’s not the price, it’s the concept.
An electric motorcycle? Hell no !!!! Not even for free....
They are coming. Change is in the air. Gasoline isn't going away tomorrow, but you are watching the future unfold.
yea, yea...we're getting off your lawn.
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Electric vehicles are the rage, everyone is coming out with one. I was behind a Tesla the other day and his license plate read "NOGAS" Here in Illinois it should read, 48% low sulfur coal 49% enriched Uranium and 3% other.
Very true, but you're never going to hear it on the news or in the advertisements. They're ZERO emissions, don't you know? The electricity to drive it forward comes from the quantum interstices from the fabric of the universe, and the material for the batteries ... well, we've seen that before, the ultimate in earth-rape, making coal strip mining look positively green.
But say nothing about any of that; all you need to know is that "It's coming ..." "Get out of the way ..." "It's the wave of the future ...." "Step aside, pathetic holders-on to a dead past ...." "Soon we will be in control and there will be no more petrol BWAHHahahah ..." "Don't stand in the way of progress ..."
Uh huh.
Lannis
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Harley may have to have a seperate place to sell the 'Lectric bikes. Not sure the tree huggers want to be in the same building as the "bad asses." It may trigger them. Heaven forbid, there may be people smoking in the parking lot. And even cussin' a little! All those gutteral belly laughs might shake their sensibilities..... :evil: "Did that fat man look at my BUTT?" I am exaggerating, (and stereotyping, as usual) but trying to sell "green" bikes, after nurturing that tough guy image might be a stretch. :grin:
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Electric street bike, no clutch , no gears,no throbbing engine, just twist the grip and go...No thanks...But an electric off road bike is a good idea.. quiet and plently of power..
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The price point is way out of line.... but then again , when has selling a slower, lower-tech version of a modern motorcycle for 20% more $$ than the competition ever stopped HD?
Their loyalists don't want it, their target market can't afford it, and it's barely even middle of the pack performance-wise among it's competitors.
They are gonna take quite a hit on this, then say "the market isn't ready", "the tech isnt there yet"
+1. Ya got that right!
Paul
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Harley may have to have a seperate place to sell the 'Lectric bikes. Not sure the tree huggers want to be in the same building as the "bad asses." It may trigger them. Heaven forbid, there may be people smoking in the parking lot. And even cussin' a little! All those gutteral belly laughs might shake their sensibilities..... :evil: "Did that fat man look at my BUTT?" I am exaggerating, (and stereotyping, as usual) but trying to sell "green" bikes, after nurturing that tough guy image might be a stretch. :grin:
lol
+ about a million
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This crowd doesn't exist. Tesla-Audi-BMW-Volvo buyers are sophisticated people and in their minds the Harley brand means heavy, inefficient, overpriced 1960s technology.
It may be a small group, but who else would buy it then?
Or it could be mandated for China which would go gaga over the brand but with pollution controls becoming mandatory, it might be a decent alternative for the nouveau riche millionaires/billionaires who want a toy. They might not put a lot of mileage on it, it could be a status symbol like buying a 1962 Chateau Mouton-Rothschild that gathers dust in the wine cave.
Who says the purchase mandatorily must be used, it might just sit there as a piece of art....gauche as it might be...
:)
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Some of you guys believe the IC engine has been around since the beginning of civilization , when in reality it is just a blip . E vehicles are coming as surely as the IC engine replaced the horse , which I might remind you caused great consternation among the horse loyalists . Change is the one constant , how many of you saw the personal computer revolution ?
Oh , Jas67 , you are correct , Polaris bought Brammo , the Livewire was developed from the Mission Motorcycle E bike , which of course doesn't match up favorably to the Zero either .
Dusty
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It may be a small group, but who else would buy it then?
Or it could be mandated for China which would go gaga over the brand but with pollution controls becoming mandatory, it might be a decent alternative for the nouveau riche millionaires/billionaires who want a toy. They might not put a lot of mileage on it, it could be a status symbol like buying a 1962 Chateau Mouton-Rothschild that gathers dust in the wine cave.
Who says the purchase mandatorily must be used, it might just sit there as a piece of art....gauche as it might be...
:)
Paul , the MoCo corporate culture won't support a motorbike that only sells in small numbers , maybe if this thing said Moto Guzzi on the tank it would be viable , but HD killed the Buell and V rod platforms because they didn't sell in the tens of thousands per year .
Dusty
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Make no mistake...electric cars / motorcycles / bicycles are in our future...whether we like it or not. :shocked: :rolleyes:
A neighbor of mine just ordered one of these...RAD electric bikes...I told him I want to ride it when it arrives!! :thumb: :cool: :smiley:
(https://i.ibb.co/kK7MShW/Screen-Shot-2019-07-15-at-11-31-52-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/kK7MShW)
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Paul , the MoCo corporate culture won't support a motorbike that only sells in small numbers , maybe if this thing said Moto Guzzi on the tank it would be viable , but HD killed the Buell and V rod platforms because they didn't sell in the tens of thousands per year .
Dusty
With HD sales down approx 10%, which is approx 20K bikes lower than the prior year, any pick up they get from electric bikes will be welcome...but they don't expect to turn around their sales numbers in the short term. Clearly the time horizon for this "radical" departure for HD must be a 4 to 5 year plan. Given the tariff hits HD has had to absorb, shifting their production to SE Asia to reduce costs and also tap into markets that use a moto as basic transport (Thailand, China, Burma (Myanmar) is a likely place for electric bikes to grow...not this particular model obviously since it's at the high end, but I suspect they'll have a range of electric bikes and this one is their premium offering for the Tesla crowd.
My guess is they try to sell 500 of these monster bikes, 2500 of the next level down, 5000 of the mid range and 10,000 low end electric bikes per year over time, ramping up steadily over the next several years.
Just my guess...
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I don't think the traditional Harley market is the target market for this, electric lifestyle doesn't mesh with doo rags and vests anyway.
It's going to be folks who have money (think Tesla owners or now high end Audi, BMW, Volvo electric/hybrid) owners who want a "Harley" looking bike, but that is "green in nature". That new crowd has the money to spend, whether it's $20K, $25K or $30K.
It might be a total flop, but I think they are banking on a totally different class of folks to buy this bike.
I think the problem lies in the fact that the normally tesla, or high end electric/hybrid customer is not going to be looking at a HD.. it will be a joke to them IMHO. I bet if BMW offered this bike, at this price point, they would sell... not a ton... but they will sell. Fact is "the Brand" makes a huge difference to a lot of people.. and someone that wants a 2 wheel tesla is going to think a HD is a joke... Just ask VW how it did selling the Phaeton...
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I don't think the traditional Harley market is the target market for this, electric lifestyle doesn't mesh with doo rags and vests anyway.
It's going to be folks who have money (think Tesla owners or now high end Audi, BMW, Volvo electric/hybrid) owners who want a "Harley" looking bike, but that is "green in nature". That new crowd has the money to spend, whether it's $20K, $25K or $30K.
It might be a total flop, but I think they are banking on a totally different class of folks to buy this bike.
That’s exactly what the rep said on TV, in so many words, totally new market to derive from the introduction of this wizard of technology:)
Just looking back on historical as an older guy here is my thoughts on the EBike for our country. 100 mile range is a deal breaker for the majority of the motorcycle enthusiast, that being said. Let em get that number to 300 miles and hide and watch.
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To those who state the bike isn't 'green' because the electricity comes from coal and other sources like that... yes, it does. The thing about all that dirty coal- it's easier to control pollution at one stack than 1 million tailpipes. The material for the batteries...well, that is another dark secret of this technology.
People only want to focus on the topics that support their agenda and ignore some of the others.
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Just so folks understand the specs. HD $30 thousand dollar bike is claimed to be able to reach 140 miles on the max charge.
Their main comp Zero Motorcycle has a new model which seems a far better machine, for a lot less money.
The SR/F will go 200 miles on a max charge, go 124mph, deliver peak torque of 140 Ft-LB!! Can be charged to 95% full in 80 min, (60 min if you want to spring for the deluxe) And to me looks ever bit as good as the HD, all for $8000 less.
You can apparently get very similar specs, for even far less on the previous generation design, still being made.
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This electric vehicle crap will not be mainstream for another 20-30 years (Dusty, save this post). It's been around for a long time and still hasn't caught on. Don't get all foamed up over it.
Anybody want to buy some solar panels?
Brooklyn Bridge?
20 year old Guzzi?
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I really support the electric thing for both bikes and cars overall but...this kind of pricing for pretty much commuter range seems steep. A $4,900 250-300 cc range IC bike would still be much more cost efficient when considering the purchase price difference and do 90% of commuting needs.
As mentioned get that range up into a real life 200+ range, get reasonable on purchase price and it will be Nelly out the barn door.
GliderJohn
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Interesting how this forum makes us tip toe around social issues but it is open season on Harley bashing and stereotyping Harley owners. Is this what is called hypocrisy?
Well gentlemen living in the past, the face of the Harley owner is changing. At least among those buying new machines. A large percentage of the Road Glide riders I have met wear modular helmets, kevlar gear with armor, gloves and boots.
Of course I know this post will probably get deleted because I am not piling on with the hate talk. :grin:
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Electric motorcycles? My goodness, who ever even thought it about it before? How is possible?
Never in a million years would I ever guess that someone would sell an electric motorcycle. :weiner:
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Electric motorcycles? My goodness, who ever even thought it about it before? How is possible?
Never in a million years would I ever guess that someone would sell an electric motorcycle. :weiner:
Considering that there have been electric cars available for sale over 100 years ago, I'm guessing a lot of people thought about it. Just figuring out where to put 1000 lbs of batteries was the problem.
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Who's ridden one of these?
https://www.energicamotorusa.com/
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Not sure if it'll fly and I don't really care either way except that it's never fun to watch something fail. I would say that sometimes it takes a big player, like a Harley Davidson, to make something mainstream and, thus, acceptable and something others follow. Concerning the comments, why not just acknowledge that *you* are not willing to shell out $30K for an electric bike and remind yourself that *you* are not everyone nor do you speak for everyone? And hey, come on, if there's one thing that unites pretty much every Guzzi owner it's that we're all tight as Tupperware. "You want $3200 for that? Well I won't pay more than $2950 and anyone who does is a damn fool!" Anyhow, the market is filled with expensive toys (3 wheeled Morgan, anyone?) that, despite the fact that they're crazy pricey and sort of ridiculously impractical, somehow are made and bought and exist despite those seemingly insurmountable issues and the universal disinterest from penurius Guzzi owners.
I say 1) good for HD and 2) not for me and 3) I hope they sell and 4) I hope that other manufacturers do similar.
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We're more energy independent than we've ever been. IC engines are going nowhere. Remember, bigger the better? Keep huggin those trees.
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I imagine many folks who don't ride a motorcycle today don't do so because they've know, or can imagine, the stats. Motorcyclists are at least 25x more likely to be injured or killed in a confrontation with a car than someone else in a car.
The fact that the motorcycle would no longer be powered by an internal combustion engine but by an electric motor will probably elicit a big yawn from the already-non-riding public, and an even bigger yawn from their current customer base.
Bob
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Make no mistake...electric cars / motorcycles / bicycles are in our future...whether we like it or not. :shocked: :rolleyes:
A neighbor of mine just ordered one of these...RAD electric bikes...I told him I want to ride it when it arrives!! :thumb: :cool: :smiley:
(https://i.ibb.co/kK7MShW/Screen-Shot-2019-07-15-at-11-31-52-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/kK7MShW)
I picked up a Giant brand electric bicycle a few weeks ago and haven't ridden my motorcycle since. I can pedal up steep hills at over 20mph like I'm in first gear.
Once battery technology improves, or they can create a regenerative drive system to keep the battery charged and increase mileage, then these electric motorbikes we be more acceptable and practical. Many countries are also placing a ban on new gas powered vehicles starting as early as 2025, and even LA and Seattle have a ban on new vehicles starting at 2030.
Ken
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Once battery technology improves, or they can create a regenerative drive system to keep the battery charged and increase mileage, then these electric motorbikes we be more acceptable and practical.
Ken
This has been true (for both cars and bikes) and has been stated continuously from about 1906 until today.
It's still true, 113 years on. It's sort of a basic physics problem having to do with energy density.
And I'm all for having to leave your IC vehicle at the door (along with your shoes) at the "IN" door to major cities like LA and Seattle. They'd be much pleasanter places.
Lannis
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Maybe in a few years, there will be a new biker show, "Sons of E.M.F." :wink:
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Electric vehicles are the rage, everyone is coming out with one. I was behind a Tesla the other day and his license plate read "NOGAS" Here in Illinois it should read, 48% low sulfur coal 49% enriched Uranium and 3% other.
Wow, you get it! Well said, sir.
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when has selling a slower, lower-tech version of a modern motorcycle for 20% more $$ than the competition ever stopped HD?
Or Guzzi ?
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Motorcyclists are at least 25x more likely to be injured or killed in a confrontation with a car than someone else in a car.
I love statistics. They can be made to say anything you want when worded correctly. I agree with the intent of the above statistic.
Without the rest of the story it is just an interesting bit of knowledge.
How many drivers have never been in a wreck with another car their entire life?
How many motorcyclists have never been in a wreck with a car?
How many wrecks were avoided because a person was on a motorcycle instead of in a car?
My Dad was in his first car wreck at 82 years old. I know many riders who have never impacted with a car.
So, yes, if you screw up you have a greater chance of being injured. That knowledge there does help riders to not become complacent like so many car drivers are.
There are many things in life that screwing up can bring dire consequense.
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This electric vehicle crap will not be mainstream for another 20-30 years (Dusty, save this post). It's been around for a long time and still hasn't caught on. Don't get all foamed up over it.
Anybody want to buy some solar panels?
Brooklyn Bridge?
20 year old Guzzi?
Cam , I'll be dead in 20 years , so there will be no way to prove or disprove your assumption . I will say this , when cordless tools first came out , every old school carpenter laughed and said "Those will never catch on" . Go to any job site now , the only corded tools will be a table saw , a miter saw , and the combination radio battery charger . Same with tankless water heaters , and solar panels , all becoming much more commonplace . It took 40 years from the first Otto Cycle engine to the introduction of practical if somewhat crude IC powered vehicles , but once the infrastructure was in place to support the change from horses to cars happened at breath taking speed . I won't make any predictions when , but once the change really starts it will be rapid .
Our own Shorty on WG predicted in about 1998 that this internet thing was never gonna catch on , "I got yer dot com right here" was the quote . We still laugh about that :laugh:
Dusty
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Interesting how this forum makes us tip toe around social issues but it is open season on Harley bashing and stereotyping Harley owners. Is this what is called hypocrisy?
Well gentlemen living in the past, the face of the Harley owner is changing. At least among those buying new machines. A large percentage of the Road Glide riders I have met wear modular helmets, kevlar gear with armor, gloves and boots.
Of course I know this post will probably get deleted because I am not piling on with the hate talk. :grin:
I literally have no idea what you are carrying on about ??? No one is bashing the MoCo , we are simply saying they are making a really poor business decision by offering a product that isn't competitive with the Zero , and at a much higher price . The Harley mystique is fading , this ain't gonna be a success .
Dusty
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I literally have no idea what you are carrying on about ??? No one is bashing the MoCo , we are simply saying they are making a really poor business decision by offering a product that isn't competitive with the Zero , and at a much higher price . The Harley mystique is fading , this ain't gonna be a success .
Dusty
The main thing to think about is battery technology. IIRC, the HD bike battery pack is good for 1200 charging cycles. That probably equates to about 1200 miles of riding, give or take. Many of these batteries loose 20% capacity after 500 charging cycles, and some variations can go bad if fully discharged. After a few years, that battery pack will need to be replaced, and if batteries change in that time, you may not be able to retrofit a new pack into the old bike. This would be another expensive lawn ornament for someone. Even if the new battery packs are compatible, what's a first generation electric bike going to be worth in 5 or ten years? My 2009 V7C isn't worth a lot, but at least it will always run as long as we have gasoline.
Ken
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The main thing to think about is battery technology. IIRC, the HD bike battery pack is good for 1200 charging cycles. That probably equates to about 1200 miles of riding, give or take. Many of these batteries loose 20% capacity after 500 charging cycles, and some variations can go bad if fully discharged. After a few years, that battery pack will need to be replaced, and if batteries change in that time, you may not be able to retrofit a new pack into the old bike. This would be another expensive lawn ornament for someone. Even if the new battery packs are compatible, what's a first generation electric bike going to be worth in 5 or ten years? My 2009 V7C isn't worth a lot, but at least it will always run as long as we have gasoline.
Ken
Ken
[/quote
Dunno , that's where the aftermarket might come in , similar to the way a car from 1960 can be updated with current tech . No problem is insurmountable if people are interested .
Dusty
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I still got yer dot com right here... :wink: I cannot bitch too much about electric bikes, being a proud fanboy of the BMW K75.. :grin: Smooth and quiet is ok with me. I just ain't paying a premium for a bike with a limited range.
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Considering that there have been electric cars available for sale over 100 years ago, I'm guessing a lot of people thought about it. Just figuring out where to put 1000 lbs of batteries was the problem.
\
really? hmmm, it does sound familiar.
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The main thing to think about is battery technology. IIRC, the HD bike battery pack is good for 1200 charging cycles. That probably equates to about 1200 miles of riding, give or take. Many of these batteries loose 20% capacity after 500 charging cycles, and some variations can go bad if fully discharged. After a few years, that battery pack will need to be replaced, and if batteries change in that time, you may not be able to retrofit a new pack into the old bike. This would be another expensive lawn ornament for someone. Even if the new battery packs are compatible, what's a first generation electric bike going to be worth in 5 or ten years? My 2009 V7C isn't worth a lot, but at least it will always run as long as we have gasoline.
Ken
[/quote
Dunno , that's where the aftermarket might come in , similar to the way a car from 1960 can be updated with current tech . No problem is insurmountable if people are interested .
Dusty
Good point, Dusty as there are already companies that rebuild batteries for these things. As technology moves ahead, I can see these lithium batteries becoming outdated, and retrofitting these bikes being very costly or next to impossible. Since I already own an electric lawn mower, electric skateboard (built it myself, including the battery pack) and an electric bicycle, I like the technology, but I also know how limited they are. On very hot days my lawn mower shuts down as the electronics get too hot. I hope these electric motorbikes don't have the same issue on a hot day. I hope HD has added many heat sinks and cooling fans to the bikes!
Ken
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Make no mistake...electric cars / motorcycles / bicycles are in our future...whether we like it or not. :shocked: :rolleyes:
A neighbor of mine just ordered one of these...RAD electric bikes...I told him I want to ride it when it arrives!! :thumb: :cool: :smiley:
(https://i.ibb.co/kK7MShW/Screen-Shot-2019-07-15-at-11-31-52-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/kK7MShW)
Things like these are booming here in Germany in a way nobody has anticipated. My sister just bought a new KTM with a Bosch engine with 60 N m torque! The same as my V7 Stone! Of course the power is only about 600 W. But anyway!
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Things like these are booming here in Germany in a way nobody has anticipated. My sister just bought a new KTM with a Bosch engine with 60 N m torque! The same as my V7 Stone! Of course the power is only about 600 W. But anyway!
They're selling great in Milwaukee as well. Mine has the power assist "cut off" as 28mph and up to 80Nm of torque. We have some great curvy and hilly bike trails along Lake Michigan, and these bikes really make it enjoyable. I don't have to worry about any idiot riders on the trail (except for me).
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they build a superior product for less money
Ah that's pretty much any Motorcycle make with any model already.
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yeah, nah..cant see EV's replacing IC motors on a large scale any time soon. Not with current tech.
We need to retrofit all homes with charge points, build new homes with same. Then lotsa new charging stations scattered everywhere (300km range?). So now we need to upgrade the , transformers, lines etc, all the way back to the switch yards. And probably more power power supply for the extra current and amperage every night when we plug our EV's in to charge. Hmm.
We wont be driving from Brisbane to Melbourne and back in a week. Not with 15hr or so charge times to go 300 km.
I think EV's will work in urban areas with lots of public transport. Not much use out back.
And Then !! Where do we get all the lithium etc from to build enough batteries to replace however many million (billion?) IC vehicles ? Then replace them every ten years or so?
Yeah, nah..cant see EV's replacing IC motors on a large scale any time soon. Not with current tech.
Or maybe only the rich and important people will be doing EV's. The rest of us plebs will be riding donkeys :shocked:
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lol..maybe HD and MG should get ahead of the curve and start building donkeys...oh, wait..... :huh:
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Of coourse for £90k/$108k you could always have one of these.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqmXC5fH_oA
You do get a HUD helmet and a jacket that is linked to the bike's brain.
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Cam , I'll be dead in 20 years , so there will be no way to prove or disprove your assumption . I will say this , when cordless tools first came out , every old school carpenter laughed and said "Those will never catch on" . Go to any job site now , the only corded tools will be a table saw , a miter saw , and the combination radio battery charger . :laugh:
Dusty
Not exactly from my experience from a carrer in big construction...The first cordless tools appeared in the 1980's...Very little power and short battery life, limited use for the home owner..They were ignorored by tradesmen because they were useless...That changed when battery technology improved and the introduction of the multispeed Dewalt...
I took a ride last night on the endless two lane roads around where I live...A beautiful 70 degree evening..downing shifing into the corners then accelerate with the rpm rising and falling on the upshifting....The sound and vibration from the engine....An internal combustion experience, it's why I ride...I am not alone thinking like this....But technology marches on and electric stuff will makes for less rider involvement and skill.... I'll be gone long before that...
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I've ridden a Zero dual sport and a Zero sport naked street bike. They were both fun. And with the sporty street bike, it was odd how you were able to concentrate on cornering technique more with no clutch/shifting. The brake to throttle transition, along with proper body position made it a quite fun ride. The dual sport off road was pretty good too.
Our manufacturing facility has been replacing pneumatic and electric plug in hand tools with DeWalt cordless tools (Impact drivers, drills, grinders, saws) for a couple years now and it was funny how the old guys resisted the change, but now are fully on board with them as much better.
Earlier I think someone said about range that "most" motorcyclist need more than 100 miles. Ponder that a bit and we might realize most motorcycles are not used for touring and 200+ mile day rides. Our company is redoing our parking lot, along with building expansion. How to accommodate charging stations for EVs was a major topic. Urban EV commuting will probably be a big deal in the not to distant future.
Dusty, I'm shocked you forgot Polaris bought Brammo, what with your superb marking idea of the "Plugindian" name! :grin:
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I imagine many folks who don't ride a motorcycle today don't do so because they've know, or can imagine, the stats. Motorcyclists are at least 25x more likely to be injured or killed in a confrontation with a car than someone else in a car.
The fact that the motorcycle would no longer be powered by an internal combustion engine but by an electric motor will probably elicit a big yawn from the already-non-riding public, and an even bigger yawn from their current customer base.
Bob
I think you are on to something here, the general public perceptions of motorcycle safety (and regardless of how statistics can be bent to make an argument) will most likely make e-motorbikes a hard sell to the masses.
It's going to take legislation (NO IC Engines within these City parameters!)
to significantly increase e-motorbike sales.
Personally, I would love to see the masses choose to use e-vehicles for work commutes..but again it will probably take legislation.
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I literally have no idea what you are carrying on about ??? No one is bashing the MoCo , we are simply saying they are making a really poor business decision by offering a product that isn't competitive with the Zero , and at a much higher price . The Harley mystique is fading , this ain't gonna be a success .
Dusty
Funny how you focus on the MoCo where I was referring to the derogatory description of the owners. :rolleyes:
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Some of you guys believe the IC engine has been around since the beginning of civilization , when in reality it is just a blip . E vehicles are coming as surely as the IC engine replaced the horse , which I might remind you caused great consternation among the horse loyalists . Change is the one constant , how many of you saw the personal computer revolution ?
Dusty
I am sure of change as a constant, but I'm less sure of E vehicles as the solution. It's all about generation, storage and transmission and E vehicles only solve 1 of those (although they transmit very well). The IC competes with E and with improvements in transmission could even surpass its thermal efficiency. Mazda's second gen Skyactiv-X (out next year) and 3rd gen (in design) are examples. E vehicles will fight back with improved storage but both technologies will fall or survive history based on how we generate energy. It will never make sense to power a bunch of E vehicles by burning coal.
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Wow, you get it! Well said, sir.
Well actually, neither one of you get it. The main point of electric vehicles is that they require about 25% as much energy as a comparable IC engine vehicle. It's not where the energy comes from, its that there is so much less of it needed to accomplish the same task.
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Funny how you focus on the MoCo where I was referring to the derogatory description of the owners. :rolleyes:
Dude , no one has said anything worse than what we say about Guzzi riders , it's part of the culture .
I am sure of change as a constant, but I'm less sure of E vehicles as the solution. It's all about generation, storage and transmission and E vehicles only solve 1 of those (although they transmit very well). The IC competes with E and with improvements in transmission could even surpass its thermal efficiency. Mazda's second gen Skyactiv-X (out next year) and 3rd gen (in design) are examples. E vehicles will fight back with improved storage but both technologies will fall or survive history based on how we generate energy. It will never make sense to power a bunch of E vehicles by burning coal.
I agree George , but even here in Oklahoma we are producing almost 25% of our electricity with wind , a smaller portion with solar , and those technologies are improving everyday .
Dusty
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While reading all these great responses I still think my assessment may be close to reality, which is. In regards to the EV vehicles, motorcycles, cars, trucks etc, our generation, 60 to the grave, will not except this mode of travel. That being said, our grandkids is a different story. I thinks acceptable electric vehicles are still 10-20 years out. Why, three reasons, RANGE RANGE RANGE:)
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While reading all these great responses I still think my assessment may be close to reality, which is. In regards to the EV vehicles, motorcycles, cars, trucks etc, our generation, 60 to the grave, will not except this mode of travel. That being said, our grandkids is a different story. I thinks acceptable electric vehicles are still 10-20 years out. Why, three reasons, RANGE RANGE RANGE:)
Young folks are so far out in front of us geezers on this , kinda funny to watch old guys claiming it won't happen , while kids have already moved on . Way of the world I suppose .
Dusty
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I agree George , but even here in Oklahoma we are producing almost 25% of our electricity with wind , a smaller portion with solar , and those technologies are improving everyday .
Dusty
........and the remaining 75% is largely natural gas.
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Young folks are so far out in front of us geezers on this , kinda funny to watch old guys claiming it won't happen , while kids have already moved on . Way of the world I suppose
I think few kids are among the buyers of the 2% of US new car sales which utilize electric propulsion... Teslas are bought by people who are both trendy and rich, and the latter is the more relevant factor when it comes to buying something extravagantly expensive, and only a few kids are rich.
I don't personally think 'believing' is at the same level of importance as 'doing', but I do think that understanding the difference becomes more natural with age.
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I think few kids are among the buyers of the 2% of US new car sales which utilize electric propulsion... Teslas are bought by people who are both trendy and rich, and the latter is the more relevant factor when it comes to buying something extravagantly expensive, and only a few kids are rich.
I don't personally think 'believing' is at the same level of importance as 'doing', but I do think that understanding the difference becomes more natural with age.
We continue using the Tesla as a benchmark , ignoring the fact that most major manufacturers are developing affordable E vehicles . I tend to think of the early E vehicles as the De Dions of the late 1890's , more just an experimental phase of development .
Dusty
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Developing and selling are two different things. The former is about hope. In terms of sales Tesla has most of the 2%, indicating that those who have "moved on" are wealthy, and therefore not often young. Fiat sold some electric cars at a huge loss in California and although they are highly range limited, they would be a good choice for somebody on a budget who does not need much utility: about $9K value today for a used one - they depreciated like rocks.
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Well actually, neither one of you get it. The main point of electric vehicles is that they require about 25% as much energy as a comparable IC engine vehicle. It's not where the energy comes from, its that there is so much less of it needed to accomplish the same task.
:thumb:
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Developing and selling are two different things. The former is about hope. In terms of sales Tesla has most of the 2%, indicating that those who have "moved on" are wealthy, and therefore not often young. Fiat sold some electric cars at a huge loss in California and although they are highly range limited, they would be a good choice for somebody on a budget who does not need much utility: about $9K value today for a used one - they depreciated like rocks.
You are only observing the market here in the US , worldwide Tesla delivered over 95,000 new vehicles during the last reported quarter .
As for depreciation , have you been paying attention , any new vehicle's value drops like a rock now once it has left the dealership . Even the once vaunted HD resale value has disappeared .
Dusty
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Well actually, neither one of you get it. The main point of electric vehicles is that they require about 25% as much energy as a comparable IC engine vehicle. It's not where the energy comes from, its that there is so much less of it needed to accomplish the same task.
But define "task". Unless you live in an urban area or it is used for recreational purposes the task can't be accomplished for the vast majority of people traveling by over the road. vehicles.
Totally unusable for my required "tasks"...
And 'till the battery tech is develop a BUNCH more is almost fantasy and considering all the trade offs to produce the mechanisms that make it possible at all as in manufacturing and the fact the batteries of today don't last for very many cycles considering the investment of a high end automobile or a scoot, depreciating very fast as the "new models show up.
Might be a business opportunity for somebody "recycling batteries and cars/motos. Might be big.
Not anywhere near ready for prime time..\\ for the masses.
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But define "task". Unless you live in an urban area or it is used for recreational purposes the task can't be accomplished for the vast majority of people traveling by over the road. vehicles.
Totally unusable for my required "tasks"...
And 'till the battery tech is develop a BUNCH more is almost fantasy and considering all the trade offs to produce the mechanisms that make it possible at all as in manufacturing and the fact the batteries of today don't last for very many cycles considering the investment of a high end automobile or a scoot, depreciating very fast as the "new models show up.
Might be a business opportunity for somebody "recycling batteries and cars/motos. Might be big.
Not anywhere near ready for prime time..
Mike , that sounds a lot like the arguments made when IC powered cars first started appearing . There were actually people who said that the human body can't breath when traveling any faster than 12 MPH .
Dusty
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Mike , that sounds a lot like the arguments made when IC powered cars first started appearing . There were actually people who said that the human body can't breath when traveling any faster than 12 MPH .
Dusty
My great grandmother in West Texas never took a ride in one of those new fangled death traps. She believed that God didn't intend the human critter to move any faster than it could run...(Or fly if he didn't have feathers.)
:-)
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My great grandmother in West Texas never took a ride in one of those new fangled death traps. She believed that God didn't intend the human critter to move any faster than it could run...(Or fly if he didn't have feathers.)
:-)
:laugh: My grandfather the railroad man thought cars were nonsense , we should all travel by train . Of course that did lead to some nice long train rides as a kid , maybe he was right :grin:
Dusty
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You are only observing the market here in the US , worldwide Tesla delivered over 95,000 new vehicles during the last reported quarter .
As for depreciation , have you been paying attention , any new vehicle's value drops like a rock now once it has left the dealership . Even the once vaunted HD resale value has disappeared .
Dusty
I have a house in Europe and spend time there, so I’m familiar with overseas markets. What is happening in Europe is tax avoidance as consumer motivation. Very similar to the Diesel situation there 15 years ago. Energy security is a big issue in Europe, and so the basic economics tend to be secondary. Less true elsewhere in the world, including in North America. Tesla has about 0.1% of the world car market, 1/20 of their US market share. So while some relatively small European markets are relatively heavy into electric cars, the world is not.
The little Fiat electric 500s depreciate 60% in a couple of years in the US as a result of low market demand.
https://usedfirst.com/cars/fiat/500e/
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But define "task". Unless you live in an urban area or it is used for recreational purposes the task can't be accomplished for the vast majority of people traveling by over the road. vehicles.
Totally unusable for my required "tasks"...
And 'till the battery tech is develop a BUNCH more is almost fantasy and considering all the trade offs to produce the mechanisms that make it possible at all as in manufacturing and the fact the batteries of today don't last for very many cycles considering the investment of a high end automobile or a scoot, depreciating very fast as the "new models show up.
Might be a business opportunity for somebody "recycling batteries and cars/motos. Might be big.
Not anywhere near ready for prime time..\\ for the masses.
Might as well give it up, mon ami. :wink: You're using science, facts, economics, historical data, and experience to make your case.
No way that can stand up to the brilliancy and freshness of simple mindless optimism, pseudo-science, hope, cliches like "change is inevitable" and "they said man would never fly", added to the fact that you're old and therefore must step aside and let the young people learn all over again what we spent a lifetime learning ... :thewife:
Lannis
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^^^Huh ?
Dusty
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^^^Huh ?
Dusty
Must have been for someone else ... they'll understand ....
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Might as well give it up, mon ami. :wink: You're using science, facts, economics, historical data, and experience to make your case.
No way that can stand up to the brilliancy and freshness of simple mindless optimism, pseudo-science, hope, cliches like "change is inevitable" and "they said man would never fly", added to the fact that you're old and therefore must step aside and let the young people learn all over again what we spent a lifetime learning ... :thewife:
Lannis
In a social media world where facts don't matter, people will believe what they are told and conditioned to believe. :laugh:
While they don't fit "my" needs, they do fit a great number of peoples needs. And if social engineering pushes the EV's, they will become popular. They are economical to operate, especially in dense metro traffic, just not buy and dispose of, yet. Remember, where there is a vacuum, technology will advance exponentially.
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While they don't fit "my" needs, they do fit a great number of peoples needs. And if social engineering pushes the EV's, they will become popular. They are economical to operate, especially in dense metro traffic, just not buy and dispose of, yet. Remember, where there is a vacuum, technology will advance exponentially.
"And if ..." I agree. We'll have to see.
"Dense metro traffic ...." Yep, they're part of the overall solution of doing something about the congestion in cities.
"Just not to buy and dispose of yet." That ain't chopped liver. 113 years, remember.
"Technology will advance exponentially". Hasn't done much for a cure for cancer yet; the exponent can't be much over 1.00 sometimes.
Lannis
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Many cancers are indeed curable, 25 years ago they weren’t. Cancer survivor rates are dramatically higher than they were 50 years ago. It’s been a agonizingly slow rise, and there remains a long way to go, cancer is a scourge against humanity but progress is being made.
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Many cancers are indeed curable, 25 years ago they weren’t. Cancer survivor rates are dramatically higher than they were 50 years ago. It’s been a agonizingly slow rise, and there remains a long way to go, cancer is a scourge against humanity but progress is being made.
True. But "exponentially" has a bit of a different meaning, sort of the opposite of "agonizingly slow". :cool:
Growth is computer speed, processing power, and storage density, now THAT'S exponential growth .... :bow:
Lannis
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But define "task". Unless you live in an urban area or it is used for recreational purposes the task can't be accomplished for the vast majority of people traveling by over the road. vehicles.
Totally unusable for my required "tasks"...
And 'till the battery tech is develop a BUNCH more is almost fantasy and considering all the trade offs to produce the mechanisms that make it possible at all as in manufacturing and the fact the batteries of today don't last for very many cycles considering the investment of a high end automobile or a scoot, depreciating very fast as the "new models show up.
Might be a business opportunity for somebody "recycling batteries and cars/motos. Might be big.
Not anywhere near ready for prime time..\\ for the masses.
I define task as vehicle distance travelled per unit of energy consumed. Electric vehicles excel at this. And while they may not be of any use to you, electric vehicles are actually more than adequate for the vast majority of non-commercial vehicular travel in the US. The majority of miles traveled are for a round trip of under 30 miles or so, and the vast majority of that is in urban areas.
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No one inside of the real battery or E business ever says the tech increases exponentially , not even sure why someone say that . Everything I have read about this indicates the incremental gains add up to a doubling of storage capacity per kilogram occurring on a 7 year scale . The last cordless power tool I purchased bears this out , 18V with a charge hold time equal to the stuff from 14 years ago , with a battery 1/4 the size of the same tool from 14 years ago . . There is no such thing as a breakthrough , the gains happen slowly with a lot of work involved .
Dusty
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Is the point where we talk about the holographic universe?
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I define task as vehicle distance travelled per unit of energy consumed. Electric vehicles excel at this. And while they may not be of any use to you, electric vehicles are actually more than adequate for the vast majority of non-commercial vehicular travel in the US. The majority of miles traveled are for a round trip of under 30 miles or so, and the vast majority of that is in urban areas.
Wow, pretty clinical!
I definitely don't define task in that manner, for me its transportation and traveling the open road w/no thought what so ever of units of anything.
Also I have never been accused of being part of the majority of anything.
:-)
So happy ZZZZ motoring
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Chew on this bit of data. Quite an interesting data point for those who think EV and Tesla is not encroaching on the base. Pretty sure no one here would have made this prediction 8 years ago...
(https://i.ibb.co/jGj0GdG/2-B5-A5-ED6-C78-D-4792-BB88-DC62528-F47-DC.png) (https://ibb.co/jGj0GdG)
[url=ht
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Chew on this bit of data. Quite an interesting data point for those who think EV and Tesla is not encroaching on the base. Pretty sure no one here would have made this prediction 8 years ago...
(https://i.ibb.co/jGj0GdG/2-B5-A5-ED6-C78-D-4792-BB88-DC62528-F47-DC.png) (https://ibb.co/jGj0GdG)
I chew my nails but..
What is the source of that info, (please don't say google). Your investment monthly?
Just curious.
:-) (http://ht
[/quote)
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I certain electric bicycles are a structuring force. In 10 years I wouldn't be astounded to see electric bicycles making up 20% or a greater amount of the new bicycle advertise.
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Chew on this bit of data. Quite an interesting data point for those who think EV and Tesla is not encroaching on the base. Pretty sure no one here would have made this prediction 8 years ago...
(https://i.ibb.co/jGj0GdG/2-B5-A5-ED6-C78-D-4792-BB88-DC62528-F47-DC.png) (https://ibb.co/jGj0GdG)
Must be a regional component. While there are a few Teslas around in my metro, Mercedes-Benzes are about as common as Toyotas! (http://ht
[/quote)
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Must be a regional component. While there are a few Teslas around in my metro, Mercedes-Benzes are about as common as Toyotas!
It could be , for some reason I see lots of Teslas in the OKC area , but haven't ever noticed one here , which is odd because we have everything from a Maserati daily driver to the occasional 500 Fiat . Of course now that I've mentioned the dearth of Teslas here , four will drive down the street in front of the house today :laugh:
Dusty
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Chew on this bit of data. Quite an interesting data point for those who think EV and Tesla is not encroaching on the base. Pretty sure no one here would have made this prediction 8 years ago...
Tesla, Mercedes and BMW combined are a very small fraction of the US auto market - seems to be less 5% in total.
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Seems like I see lots of Tesla’s here in central IL. According to the local paper Tesla is going to open a sales/service store in Normal.
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Tesla, Mercedes and BMW combined are a very small fraction of the US auto market - seems to be less 5% in total.
Which is perfectly fine for today's stats. 5% is not a negative assessment.
Looking out over the horizon, even in 10 years as the EV market grows, Tesla may have 20% of the total EV market, which means other vendors see the likelihood and viability of this alternative mode of transportation.
Charging stations are growing significantly as well...so there is a growing network for those who do venture beyond 100-300 miles away from home.
At the end of the day, as EV transport, be it car or motorcycle becomes more acceptable or interesting, that's fine...it doesn't force unless mandated those who like IC to abandon their existing vehicles.
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I can't fathom the argument that EV's aren't up to the 'task' of transporting a majority of people yet, when the average american driver moves their car less than 40mi a day, and even that 39.xx/mi figure is artificially elevated by a small proportion of "super commuters".
For a family vehicle, EV's already have the capability to serve something like 75% of drivers and the range times will only get longer and the charge times will continue to drop. Sure, they can't take you on a many hundred mile trek... but it wont be long before battery swap stations, improved charging tech, and possibly infrastructure-integrated charging tech catch up.
Avg EV now has over 100mi range (top of the line tesla is 250mi)... EVEN if you have to drive, say 80mi to work.... you can charge it for 8hrs while you are working before your return trip home. EV's that take longer than 5hrs to charge are now rare as hen's teeth.
Most of the people complaining that EV tech isn't going to work seem to be the same people who think they need an F-250 superduty to drive 3mi to WalMart for their groceries.
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I can't fathom the argument that EV's aren't up to the 'task' of transporting a majority of people yet, when the average american driver moves their car less than 40mi a day, and even that 39.xx/mi figure is artificially elevated by a small proportion of "super commuters".
Really? Is that all that people drive?
For a family vehicle, EV's already have the capability to serve something like 75% of drivers ....
Really? Where'd that number come from?
and the range times will only get longer and the charge times will continue to drop. Sure, they can't take you on a many hundred mile trek... but it wont be long before battery swap stations, improved charging tech, and possibly infrastructure-integrated charging tech catch up.
Really? How long is "won't be long"? I've never seen one.
Avg EV now has over 100mi range (top of the line tesla is 250mi)... EVEN if you have to drive, say 80mi to work.... you can charge it for 8hrs while you are working before your return trip home.
Charging stations for every employee at every workplace? Wow! When will that happen?
Most of the people complaining that EV tech isn't going to work seem to be the same people who think they need an F-250 superduty to drive 3mi to WalMart for their groceries.
Are they really? I'd heard that they were mostly old people shaking their sticks to get these EVs out of their yard.
Lannis
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It's funny , we built an entire infrastructure to support gasoline burners , and yet somehow we can't build an infrastructure to support E vehicles :huh:
Dusty
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It's funny , we built an entire infrastructure to support gasoline burners , and yet somehow we can't build an infrastructure to support E vehicles :huh:
Dusty
. Oh but we can...and it’s well underway. Here’s a map of charging stations across the US. Looks like it’s growing nicely.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZdD765Y/66-CBD8-F5-B07-D-4-CDE-A6-BB-A908157731-B0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZdD765Y)
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. Oh but we can...and it’s well underway. Here’s a map of charging stations across the US. Looks like it’s growing nicely.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZdD765Y/66-CBD8-F5-B07-D-4-CDE-A6-BB-A908157731-B0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZdD765Y)
Looks like it's got a ways to go. Within 50 miles of me, I'll estimate that there are 1000 gasoline filling stations where I can put 600 miles of range in my car in 2 minutes. In that same area, this map shows that there is MAYBE 1 charging station that can put 150 miles of range into my car in .... well, I haven't got that much time to wait. Why isn't the infrastructure enhancement being made at a furious pace right now, to change that 1-to-10,000 ratio of charging/fueling stations? You'll have to ask the people with money to invest in it to harvest these enormous returns; for some reason, they don't seem to believe that the opportunity is there ... ?
Also, it seems to many that we are on the cusp of a change in transportation that is equivalent to the change from horses to automobiles in the next 20 years or so. If anyone knew back in 1910 what was going to happen with petroleum and automobiles (like maybe one of us was transported in time back to those days with a $20 Morgan gold piece in our pocket), we would simply invest a modest amount in automobile and oil companies, and be a millionaire in a few years, like many people actually did. Is anyone, any significant number of people, making those investments in the equivalent areas today? Looks to me like there should be some ordinary people becoming multi-millionaires soon .... and quite a few from right here on the WG list!
But alas ....
Lannis
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Electricity is available everywhere. All you need to recharge an EV is a 220v feed -- which is already built into every home and office in the civilized world. The cost to wire in a parking spot will soon be less than the cost of a decent home water heater. It will happen because private enterprise will see a chance to buy electricity at 8c/kWh and retail it at 20 or 40c.
In 1905 the drive-in gas station didn't exist. Chemical companies, farmers and motorists bought fuel by the barrel from about 3500 Standard Oil outlets around the country, and you could buy tins of gasoline at drug stores and hardware stores. Less than 10% of gas sold this way was used in registered on-road vehicles. The first urban gas station was started as a personal enterprise by a Standard Oil executive, in Seattle, in 1907. Anybody and everybody then invested in local gas pumps and by 1925 there were more than 200,000 stations. Until the OPEC embargo in 1973 we had way more gas stations than the auto fleet needed -- it peaked in 1969 at about 236,000 stations. No wonder there were price wars between stations at the same intersection. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, in 2018 there were only 107,000 filling stations in the U.S. Lesson here is that where a market exists an infrastructure can grow fast and way overshoot the mark.
Where the EV electricity will come from is another very interesting question. It will certainly place new demands on natural gas, nuclear, hydro and newer forms of central generation, and will also swell the market for local solar with storage (buy power when it's cheapest, use it whenever it makes sense). Most of the charging will be done at home and at work when the vehicles can be parked for an hour or more, or at shopping malls etc.
I'm not putting my own money in any of this -- all these investments will be speculative and probably volatile. I'm not saying it's going to happen, but it is naive to search for reasons that it can't happen.
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Really? Is that all that people drive
Yep. If you look at used car values, average mileage has been considered right at 12,000 miles per year for a long time. 40 miles per day, 300 days a year, 12,000 miles. 40 is the right number.
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Electricity is available everywhere. All you need to recharge an EV is a 220v feed -- which is already built into every home and office in the civilized world. The cost to wire in a parking spot will soon be less than the cost of a decent home air conditioner. It will happen because private enterprise will see a chance to buy electricity at 8c/kWh and retail it at 20 or 40c.
Will they? When? Anytime soon? Again, follow the money - if people with billions aren't making this happen, you have to ask "Why"?
In 1905 the drive-in gas station didn't exist. Chemical companies, farmers and motorists bought fuel by the barrel from about 3500 Standard Oil outlets around the country, and you could buy tins of gasoline at drug stores and hardware stores. Less than 10% of gas sold this way was used in registered on-road vehicles. The first urban gas station was started as a personal enterprise by a Standard Oil executive, in Seattle, in 1907. Anybody and everybody then invested in local gas pumps and by 1925 there were more than 200,000 stations. Until the OPEC embargo in 1973 we had way more gas stations than the auto fleet needed -- it peaked in 1969 at about 236,000 stations. No wonder there were price wars between stations at the same intersection. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, in 2018 there were only 107,000 filling stations in the U.S. Lesson here is that where a market exists an infrastructure can grow fast and way overshoot the mark.
I agree with your history and time-spans. That's only 18 years from "nothing" to "massive investement in trucks, refineries, pipelines, and tanks". Where's electric on that timeline? Looks like we've already gotten started, so there shouldn't be much time left to finish it up ...
I'm not putting my own money in any of this -- all these investments will be speculative and probably volatile. I'm not saying it's going to happen, but it is naive to search for reasons that it can't happen.
How can it be speculative and volatile if it's real? "Standard Oil" was never a speculative or volatile investment - we're talking about investing in something with more impact than Esso or AT&T or General Motors or Microsoft or Apple. None of those were bad investments when they cranked up, nor for the next 40 - 80 years.
Me personal, I'm not searching for reasons it can't happen - I'm doing the same as everyone else. I'm taking history, past examples, current status, and human nature, and projecting what's going to happen in the future based on those. Just because some of us come to different predictions about the future, based on exactly the same history and current status, doesn't make anyone "naive".
Lannis
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Really? Is that all that people drive?
Really? Where'd that number come from?
Really? How long is "won't be long"? I've never seen one.
Charging stations for every employee at every workplace? Wow! When will that happen?
Are they really? I'd heard that they were mostly old people shaking their sticks to get these EVs out of their yard.
Lannis
Yes, the avg american drives under 40mi a day. The figure in 2015 was 13,474 miles per year
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The mass market doesn’t buy two seat cars even though their average drive carries only 1.1 people, or whatever. They buy 4-6 seat cars instead, leaving most of the seats empty most of the time. They also buy cars with range to work on their worst case long distance drives into the boonies. They do these things in either case because the added fuel/tax cost is insignificant in relation to the freedom and flexibility it provides.
I think those who choose EVs instead (worldwide) generally do it for either or both emotional gratification and fuel tax avoidance. For that reason I would agree about investing in anything EV related - it’s hard to build solid, long term business based on either of those factors.
Where electrification can make sense as a money making business today is when selling to government, market economics is no longer a strong factor.
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Yep. If you look at used car values, average mileage has been considered right at 12,000 miles per year for a long time. 40 miles per day, 300 days a year, 12,000 miles. 40 is the right number.
I expect that you've already found the flaw in that statistical logic. I can put 12,000 miles a year on a car, and never ONCE put 40 miles on it in a day. Matter of fact, I almost never do. My car is generally either in the shed or running 200 miles somewhere ...
I can conclude from your example that a man with one foot on a hot stove and one foot in a bucket of ice can be very comfortable .... !
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Charging stations are as scarce as hens teeth. Even in SoCal your hard pressed to find one. And w/100amp service required for the most elementary station and 200 amps for quick charge, how many houses and apartments have that.
There may be new violence coming..."charge station rage"
It took a very long time to develop the infrastructure for gas powered vehicles to the point it is today, and when there was a embargo (oil) in the 70's there was trouble in the gas lines where it only took about 5 min to fill you auto.
Can you just see people in their parking space taking up a station in a 80 unit apartment complex and plugging it in and walking away. Then forgetting the family wagon was taking up a station.
Battery "swapping" stations probably manned by min wage folks...o dear, not to mention you may be swapping you new batteries for a set that are charged but near the end of their cycle limit...
Maps with dots to show chargers are damn misleading in their scale. One of those dot, though impressive would cover several square miles. Does that mean that each dot represents X # of charging stations? If so how many??
Hummm
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I expect that you've already found the flaw in that statistical logic. I can put 12,000 miles a year on a car, and never ONCE put 40 miles on it in a day. Matter of fact, I almost never do. My car is generally either in the shed or running 200 miles somewhere ...
I can conclude from your example that a man with one foot on a hot stove and one foot in a bucket of ice can be very comfortable .... !
Lannis, there is no flaw. The average miles a car is driven in the US is approximately 40 miles per day. That is statistically accurate and that is the only assertion I made.
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This might be the funniest thread ever on WG :laugh:
As for buying a vehicle for an emotional reason , well , Harley Davidson built an empire on exactly that , as did most other motorcycle manufacturers, funny to see that argued on a motorcycle forum .
Dusty
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Battery "swapping" stations probably manned by min wage folks...o dear, not to mention you may be swapping you new batteries for a set that are charged but near the end of their cycle limit...
The biggest issue with battery swapping is that vehicle manufacturers have not found it advantageous to package batteries in a swappable form/access factor. They've thought about it but for now rejected it for production. Cramming batteries into every available space has taken precedence.
As for buying a vehicle for an emotional reason , well , Harley Davidson built an empire on exactly that , as did most other motorcycle manufacturers, funny to see that argued on a motorcycle forum.
Motorcycles are in general sold for utility, worldwide. Re HD, 236,000 units per year compares with 90 million total annual vehicle sales. 0.26 percent is not an empire or representative of the market as a whole.
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Looks like it's got a ways to go. Within 50 miles of me, I'll estimate that there are 1000 gasoline filling stations where I can put 600 miles of range in my car in 2 minutes. In that same area, this map shows that there is MAYBE 1 charging station that can put 150 miles of range into my car in .... well, I haven't got that much time to wait. Why isn't the infrastructure enhancement being made at a furious pace right now, to change that 1-to-10,000 ratio of charging/fueling stations? You'll have to ask the people with money to invest in it to harvest these enormous returns; for some reason, they don't seem to believe that the opportunity is there ... ?
But alas ....
Lannis
I get it...you're not a candidate for an EV car...no problem. Maybe your neighbors or surrounding community aren't either. That's OK too. But across the nation, there is a growing population of people who are opting for this and it will spread. I don't know at what pace or what density it will fill in the open spaces... Good thing is it's not mandatory, no one will force you to buy an EV anytime soon I think, so you can observe, opine and otherwise guess on what the future will be without any negative impact to yourself. Isn't that wonderful!
:)
On a side note, I was pleasantly surprised last year riding up to the Wisconsin rally to see a Tesla zoom right by me in the middle of Kansas with Colorado plates, and thinking that the only way he could be doing that was there had to be sufficient charging stations along the way, and he was probably patient enough to sit and have lunch while recharging...rather than what we all do which is gas up and go.
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The biggest issue with battery swapping is that vehicle manufacturers have not found it advantageous to package batteries in a swappable form/access factor. They've thought about it but for now rejected it for production. Cramming batteries into every available space has taken precedence.
Motorcycles are in general sold for utility, worldwide. Re HD, 236,000 units per year compares with 90 million total annual vehicle sales. 0.26 percent is not an empire or representative of the market as a whole.
Then how did the MoCo become so cash rich ?
Dusty
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Lack of R&D investment, but in relative terms HD is a small business. A better example would be Enfield with four times the sales of HD, but either is small potatoes in relation to a discussion of technology that spans a major worldwide industry.
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I get it...you're not a candidate for an EV car...no problem. Maybe your neighbors or surrounding community aren't either. That's OK too. But across the nation, there is a growing population of people who are opting for this and it will spread. I don't know at what pace or what density it will fill in the open spaces... Good thing is it's not mandatory, no one will force you to buy an EV anytime soon I think, so you can observe, opine and otherwise guess on what the future will be without any negative impact to yourself. Isn't that wonderful!
:)
On a side note, I was pleasantly surprised last year riding up to the Wisconsin rally to see a Tesla zoom right by me in the middle of Kansas with Colorado plates, and thinking that the only way he could be doing that was there had to be sufficient charging stations along the way, and he was probably patient enough to sit and have lunch while recharging...rather than what we all do which is gas up and go.
Ah Elon, I understand that he was a great admirer of P.T. Barnum...
:-)
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Maps with dots to show chargers are damn misleading in their scale. One of those dot, though impressive would cover several square miles. Does that mean that each dot represents X # of charging stations? If so how many??
Hummm
Hollywood is about to launch a new movie: The Dots are Taking Over!
All jokes aside, eventually there will be more dots...this is a snapshot as of today. I suppose I could go back 5 years ago and show the dot map and do a side by side compare, but you are all capable as well of doing that. Just look at the note above on how many units Tesla is now selling compared to 5 years ago. Whatever the pace of adoption is of the new technology will be determined by how much some of these early adopters want to spend of their existing fortunes or how much banks or VC are willing to lend them to launch and sustain this "investment period", until it becomes profitable on a sustainable long term basis, and they start getting an ROI on their investment. Some folks here might say the investment will be a loser...it might be...but many other technologies at their launch were probably considered ludicrous as well. The good thing is we get to see this evolve in real time and we'll see over the next 20-30 years how much further it develops.
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Ah Elon, I understand that he was a great admirer of P.T. Barnum...
:-)
He might be unstable or crazy or whatever, but I'm not here to judge the man himself...just talking about Tesla as 1 example of EV. Again, if Tesla ends up owning 30% of the EV market today, and with growth in 10 years ends up owning 20% of the EV market down the road, that tells you that there are others (people or companies) who are willing to place bets on this sector of the transportation market.
I'm staying away from judging him personally...althou gh I do wonder where he gets his weed...presumably it's some of the good sticky icky from up in Mendocino.
:) anyway..back to the topic at hand!
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I expect that you've already found the flaw in that statistical logic. I can put 12,000 miles a year on a car, and never ONCE put 40 miles on it in a day. Matter of fact, I almost never do. My car is generally either in the shed or running 200 miles somewhere ...
I can conclude from your example that a man with one foot on a hot stove and one foot in a bucket of ice can be very comfortable .... !
1 example is not a statistically relevant sample set, now if you have hundreds of thousands of men with the same situation that would be relevant. In this case, it's hardly the case however.
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People called Soichiro Honda a dreamer and a bit of a nutjob also , how many times did he fail before succeeding ?Ya gotta be a little crazy to do something like Musk is attempting , normal people would never even try .
Dusty
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It's funny , we built an entire infrastructure to support gasoline burners , and yet somehow we can't build an infrastructure to support E vehicles :huh:
Dusty
The infrastructure already exists, even rural Oklahoma has electricity. All that's missing are the service points. Compare this to refining and trucking gas/diesel, building and decommissioning fuel stations. Quite a lot of recurring costs. My point the infrastructure argument is pure fallacy. But I'll concede the limitation with current batteries is legitimate.
Imagine charging points installed like parking meters where the owner parks, swipes credit card and the parking and recharging are billed at once.
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I get it...you're not a candidate for an EV car...no problem. Maybe your neighbors or surrounding community aren't either. That's OK too. But across the nation, there is a growing population of people who are opting for this and it will spread. I don't know at what pace or what density it will fill in the open spaces... Good thing is it's not mandatory, no one will force you to buy an EV anytime soon I think, so you can observe, opine and otherwise guess on what the future will be without any negative impact to yourself. Isn't that wonderful!
I MIGHT be a candidate for an EV ... I've got nothing against them. I realize that things move ahead, and change, and all that.
If the battery problems are solved, if the charging time problems are solved, if the electrical load and distribution problems are solved, and if they can be had for a price commensurate with their utility, then I'd have no problem buying one.
I'm not one that has to hear and feel the sound of gas burning in a cylinder to feel like I'm a real man on the road. The 2012 Subaru that we drove 200 miles today to pick up our grandkids sounds like a turbine anyhow, with its flat four and CVT transmission.
So maybe these issues will be solved in my or my childrens' lifetime, and there will be as many EVs on the road as ICVs. I don't happen to think so; other people think it will happen very soon.
What I'm responding to is the constant drumbeat of "It's Coming, Get Out Of The Way You Stodgy Graybeards" and "My Great Grandpa Never Thought Steam Engines Would Work, So Therefore that Proves That EVs are COMING NOW!" and "We have unlimited wind and solar energy, so it's not a problem, why are you being so recalcitrant?"
I don't know anyone here with a real live crystal ball, so I consider their speculations about the future to be 0% better than mine ....
Lannis
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I'm not really all that worried about the coming of the E vehicle , I'll be dead and gone , those decisions will be left to future generations .
Dusty
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Like I’ve been say throughout this very enlightening thread, as soon as a 300 mile EV hits the market and at a reasonable price, many of us naysayers will jump on the EV band wagon. What say y’all?
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Like I’ve been say throughout this very enlightening thread, as soon as a 300 mile EV hits the market and at a reasonable price, many of us naysayers will jump on the EV band wagon. What say y’all?
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It will also depend on the recharge time. If say, you could charge another 150 or 200 mile for half an hour while having coffee or lunch, it would be more practical. It's it's 2 or 3 hours, can count me out unless it's around town-er.
Of course bikes carry much less weight, will probably not have the issue for recharging, but would for range.
I think the 300 mile barrier is close and already available on some of the more expensive EV cars.
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It will also depend on the recharge time. If say, you could charge another 150 or 200 mile for half an hour while having coffee or lunch, it would be more practical. It's it's 2 or 3 hours, can count me out unless it's around town-er.
Of course bikes carry much less weight, will probably not have the issue for recharging, but would for range.
I think the 300 mile barrier is close and already available on some of the more expensive EV cars.
Yea you are right about the charging time thing buy I’m afraid that time limit you suggested is several years away. Also I’m not aware of any EV with a 300 mile range but admit there could be one. Can you offer further?
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Like I’ve been say throughout this very enlightening thread, as soon as a 300 mile EV hits the market and at a reasonable price, many of us naysayers will jump on the EV band wagon. What say y’all?
Range and cost are definitely factors. But I actually think the range argument is WAY overblown (not overblown for everyone of course, but for literally tens of millions of families). Case in point, like literally 99% of the 100's of homes home in my suburban-ish neighborhood, my wife and I have 2 cars. It used to be 2 ICE cars, a Toyota Highlander and a Mazda3. Now it's the Highlander and an electric Chevy Bolt. Since we have purchased the Bolt, the Highlander's annual mileage has dropped by more than half. We both like driving the Bolt way better than either the Highlander or the previous Mazda3 and only use the Highlander when we need to (long trip, pull a trailer, haul a bunch of stuff or people). It rarely gets used, and sometimes sits in the garage for weeks without being touched.
The Bolt has a range of 240 miles, and the times when that isn't adequate are very rare, just a handful of times a year. I never even consider trying to charge the Bolt unless at home because the need for that just isn't there. It charges overnight, and in reality, that takes me about 10 seconds, 5 to plug it in and 5 to unplug it. On the rare occasions where we have a longer trip we can take the other car.
Now of course, my circumstances aren't the same as everyone. But my point is, having lived in suburbia for much of my life, I know there are many millions of people who's needs could met by a modern EV (people who don't already own one).
The biggest barriers seems to be cost, which is totally legit at this point, and range, which I think is mostly an imaginary problem for many many people.
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Two cars is the minimum. My observation is that it’s more often three cars per household, if one is an EV. Everybody likes the idea of little or no fuel cost for commuting but everybody also wants total flexibility - even when the other driver is enjoying total flexibility. A couple of friends have bought a $9K used Fiat 500e to keep the total total cost of three cars under control.
Another friend lives on a small island and that works for EV too, more or less the natural habitat of an EV in my opinion.
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He might be unstable or crazy or whatever, but I'm not here to judge the man himself...just talking about Tesla as 1 example of EV. Again, if Tesla ends up owning 30% of the EV market today, and with growth in 10 years ends up owning 20% of the EV market down the road, that tells you that there are others (people or companies) who are willing to place bets on this sector of the transportation market.
I'm staying away from judging him personally...althou gh I do wonder where he gets his weed...presumably it's some of the good sticky icky from up in Mendocino.
:) anyway..back to the topic at hand!
Ha!
You may not be old enough to know who P.T. Barnum was but on the contrary I admire his skills at reading people and markets, genius, bold and willing to take a chance on his ideas.
But the hyperbole of this electric caper is...well...astound ing...
I have nothing against electric powered vehicles, they have a place just like push bikes and roller blades. (like both).
Time will tell, remember its only a few bucks down and a few easy payments.
:-)
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Range and cost are definitely factors. But I actually think the range argument is WAY overblown (not overblown for everyone of course, but for literally tens of millions of families). Case in point, like literally 99% of the 100's of homes home in my suburban-ish neighborhood, my wife and I have 2 cars. It used to be 2 ICE cars, a Toyota Highlander and a Mazda3. Now it's the Highlander and an electric Chevy Bolt. Since we have purchased the Bolt, the Highlander's annual mileage has dropped by more than half. We both like driving the Bolt way better than either the Highlander or the previous Mazda3 and only use the Highlander when we need to (long trip, pull a trailer, haul a bunch of stuff or people). It rarely gets used, and sometimes sits in the garage for weeks without being touched.
The Bolt has a range of 240 miles, and the times when that isn't adequate are very rare, just a handful of times a year. I never even consider trying to charge the Bolt unless at home because the need for that just isn't there. It charges overnight, and in reality, that takes me about 10 seconds, 5 to plug it in and 5 to unplug it. On the rare occasions where we have a longer trip we can take the other car.
Now of course, my circumstances aren't the same as everyone. But my point is, having lived in suburbia for much of my life, I know there are many millions of people who's needs could met by a modern EV (people who don't already own one).
The biggest barriers seems to be cost, which is totally legit at this point, and range, which I think is mostly an imaginary problem for many many people.
Real world example and I think more typical of what we shall see. Great as a second around town commuter car only traveling under 100 miles a day.
Thanks for sharing some real data, and not just supposition that most of us are dealing with!
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Ha!
You may not be old enough to know who P.T. Barnum was but on the contrary I admire his skills at reading people and markets, genius, bold and willing to take a chance on his ideas.
:-)
Actually I was a big fan of Barnum & Bailey circus, so I do know who PT was (historically...neve r met him though!), and we went to a few of them when I was a kid. It was at one of them that I saw basketball teams riding around on tall unicycles and slam dunking, and since I could already ride a regular one, I bugged my parents for several years to let me buy a Schwinn Giraffe (5.5 foot unicycle), they finally relented and let me buy it at age 12, and I still have and ride it today!
Now an electric unicycle would be a fun toy...wouldn't you say!
I get the "salesman" part of what you are referring to...it will be fun to watch this develop over the years!
:)
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Range and cost are definitely factors. But I actually think the range argument is WAY overblown (not overblown for everyone of course, but for literally tens of millions of families). Case in point, like literally 99% of the 100's of homes home in my suburban-ish neighborhood, my wife and I have 2 cars. It used to be 2 ICE cars, a Toyota Highlander and a Mazda3. Now it's the Highlander and an electric Chevy Bolt. Since we have purchased the Bolt, the Highlander's annual mileage has dropped by more than half. We both like driving the Bolt way better than either the Highlander or the previous Mazda3 and only use the Highlander when we need to (long trip, pull a trailer, haul a bunch of stuff or people). It rarely gets used, and sometimes sits in the garage for weeks without being touched.
The Bolt has a range of 240 miles, and the times when that isn't adequate are very rare, just a handful of times a year. I never even consider trying to charge the Bolt unless at home because the need for that just isn't there. It charges overnight, and in reality, that takes me about 10 seconds, 5 to plug it in and 5 to unplug it. On the rare occasions where we have a longer trip we can take the other car.
Now of course, my circumstances aren't the same as everyone. But my point is, having lived in suburbia for much of my life, I know there are many millions of people who's needs could met by a modern EV (people who don't already own one).
The biggest barriers seems to be cost, which is totally legit at this point, and range, which I think is mostly an imaginary problem for many many people.
Good info. With my studio and shops here on my property, I make a point to not go all the time. It isn't the way everyone lives and works, but it is similar to how I grew up (on the farm well out of town) and lived in cities like Chicago (walking, riding the El or bus or occasional taxi) and New Orleans (95% bicycle, the rest via walking & streetcar.)
I do lean towards plug in vs battery tools here at the shop for tools not used every day. Keeping a tool battery on the charger for months without using it doesn't seem to extend life any longer and needing to charge a tool completely for 30 seconds of unexpected use isn't always practical. Cord-free Portability is nice, but unless I use it daily I don't like batteries. It makes me wonder if the same would be true with an EV that may sit here idle for days or weeks (like my old truck.) If EV battery life is better measured by a time frame than miles or daily usage, it could make cost per mile very expensive for someone like me to own a vehicle & drive significantly fewer miles annually. Being rural, it would also probably cost significantly more for Uber-like services. That means ICE would be more practical in such a situation.
The elephant in the room isn't EV or ICE, it's consumption. I think that no matter what method or means is in place, too many see consumption (in this case, miles travlelled or money I have in my pocket) as a contest. There will only be a net conservation of resources by default, not because people drive less to make a difference. Until people change behavior, I doubt switching from one resource to another will really matter in the long run. It will only shift or rearrange some details but will likely create an entire new number of unintended negative consequences.
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If anyone thinks they are going to save money in the long run by buying a EV maybe seeing a good mathematician may be in order. By the time one gets rid of their perfectly good gas burning can and buys one of these EV cars, pays the interest for several years and an increase in tax’s on a newer vehicle, it will take years to recoup the loses. And if that’s not bad enough just wait until the mileage taxis imposed by the state or federal or maybe both, is attached to you new EV ride. Oh darn, did we forget about that little issue,LMBO😂
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Fellas , come on , stop acting like you are being forced to buy an E vehicle . Heck , any new car costs money and will depreciate like a rock falling into the Pacific .
Dusty
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Heck, any new car costs money and will depreciate like a rock falling into the Pacific.
Most electric cars depreciate much more than the average car. On a percentage basis, non-Tesla EVs depreciate at an almost unbelievable rate - 60-70% in the first two years versus 30% for conventional cars. For example the little Fiats lose value at over $500 per month for the first two years. Teslas are better on a percentage basis, but because they are so expensive they are still costly to own in terms of dollar value lost per month - in the range of $300-350 monthly depreciation.
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1123583_beyond-tesla-electric-cars-lose-value-faster-than-other-vehicles
https://www.carfax.com/blog/car-depreciation
Of course the flip side to this is that if you're a used car buyer, an EV might be a good deal if you don't need the same utility as others who are avoiding buying them and in doing so pushing down their market value.
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Right now I would be more worried about disposal than depreciation.
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If anyone thinks they are going to save money in the long run by buying a EV maybe seeing a good mathematician may be in order.
Or, a mathmagician...
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Most electric cars depreciate much more than the average car. On a percentage basis, non-Tesla EVs depreciate at an almost unbelievable rate - 60-70% in the first two years versus 30% for conventional cars. For example the little Fiats lose value at over $500 per month for the first two years. Teslas are better on a percentage basis, but because they are so expensive they are still costly to own in terms of dollar value lost per month - in the range of $300-350 monthly depreciation.
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1123583_beyond-tesla-electric-cars-lose-value-faster-than-other-vehicles
https://www.carfax.com/blog/car-depreciation
Of course the flip side to this is that if you're a used car buyer, an EV might be a good deal if you don't need the same utility as others who are avoiding buying them and in doing so pushing down their market value.
I have no quibble with your data, but it is very misleading because it ignores the tax incentives (like them or not, not wanting to debate that, just pointing out they exist).
Pretty much any used EV on the market will have depreciated an extra $7500 (or much more in some states) due to the tax incentive that the original purchaser received and a used buyer is not eligible for. For example, in Colorado that $500 per month over the first 2 years depreciation you cite would net to $0 depreciation for the original purchaser, who would have received the full depreciation amount in state and federal tax credits.
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Tax avoidance along with emotional appeal are the big drivers for EVs, but tax incentives (even including avoidance of fuel tax) will all disappear in the end, and of course not everybody can take advantage of current income tax incentives - 44% of the US population pays no Federal individual income tax.
On the other hand anybody can take advantage of a two year old EV now retaining only 40% of its new value, by buying used and keeping their existing car as well - so as not to pay the price in freedom of mobility and utility. To me the ideal (adopted by a friend of mine) would be a pickup truck that’s mostly parked, a four door gasoline sedan plus a cheap $9K used electric car that you run for five years, have your employer recharge for free, and then toss. At that point you could evaluate whether to repeat the cycle or whether the EV trend has by then died with phase out of the tax and employer incentives.
In my eyes it could end up being a kind of a rerun of what Europeans are doing with their Diesels right now. A friend who works for BMW in Germany was incentivized to buy a Diesel Mini a few years ago and is now being incentivized to dispose of it (back to BMW). That’s one way to drive cheaply :grin:
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Dusty, or someone said it, “this is one of the stupidest threads ever “
Who saw anti-biotechs coming?
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Dusty, or someone said it, “this is one of the stupidest threads ever “
Who saw anti-biotechs coming?
I don't even know what an anti-biotech IS, so it must not be having a horse/automobile impact on our lives.
The combined thread is 5 years old this month, and I don't see any differences yet .....
Lannis
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I don't even know what an anti-biotech IS, so it must not be having a horse/automobile impact on our lives.
The combined thread is 5 years old this month, and I don't see any differences yet .....
Lannis
How can you say that...look at the growth in the sales of EV vehicles over the last 5 years and the number of charging stations that have been put into play in that same time. There has been movement...it's not static by any means.
Back to Tusayan's comment on the Diesel...several years ago I found a beautiful very slightly used Passat TDI 6 speed manual...gorgeous car. Bought it for $22K, used it for 2 years and put about 15K miles on it, and then VW bought it back from me for $29K due to the Diesel gate emissions fiasco. That was a fantastic deal...but I do miss the car terribly...it was fantastic...torque for miles, could go 750 miles on a tank of fuel. Quite impressive to see a Passat TDi get the same mileage as my Norge!
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One percent market share to two percent market share is huge growth :grin:
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Yea you are right about the charging time thing buy I’m afraid that time limit you suggested is several years away. Also I’m not aware of any EV with a 300 mile range but admit there could be one. Can you offer further?
I've not read beyond the headline, I'll leave it to Lannis to poo poo it. Tesla 370 mile range.
https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/24/18513899/tesla-model-s-x-range-upgrade-270-325-miles-supercharger-200kw
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Range and cost are definitely factors. But I actually think the range argument is WAY overblown (not overblown for everyone of course, but for literally tens of millions of families). Case in point, like literally 99% of the 100's of homes home in my suburban-ish neighborhood, my wife and I have 2 cars. It used to be 2 ICE cars, a Toyota Highlander and a Mazda3. Now it's the Highlander and an electric Chevy Bolt. Since we have purchased the Bolt, the Highlander's annual mileage has dropped by more than half. We both like driving the Bolt way better than either the Highlander or the previous Mazda3 and only use the Highlander when we need to (long trip, pull a trailer, haul a bunch of stuff or people). It rarely gets used, and sometimes sits in the garage for weeks without being touched.
The Bolt has a range of 240 miles, and the times when that isn't adequate are very rare, just a handful of times a year. I never even consider trying to charge the Bolt unless at home because the need for that just isn't there. It charges overnight, and in reality, that takes me about 10 seconds, 5 to plug it in and 5 to unplug it. On the rare occasions where we have a longer trip we can take the other car.
Now of course, my circumstances aren't the same as everyone. But my point is, having lived in suburbia for much of my life, I know there are many millions of people who's needs could met by a modern EV (people who don't already own one).
The biggest barriers seems to be cost, which is totally legit at this point, and range, which I think is mostly an imaginary problem for many many people.
I drove a Bolt on a test drive at the Auto Show last year and thought was pretty cool. Fun to drive but in a novel way. Better than both Fiats (but the Camaro 4 cyl Turbo was most impressive, that's a world class driver's car, better than a little Beemer).
The Bolt was a barrel of fun, got right up and went. Then I played with the regenerating brakes, kinda cool. The dash, interior and everything was a new thing. If I was purchasing a new car to take me to commute to work (I am retired), it would be top of the list.
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I've not read beyond the headline, I'll leave it to Lannis to poo poo it. Tesla 370 mile range.
https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/24/18513899/tesla-model-s-x-range-upgrade-270-325-miles-supercharger-200kw
Sure. Not to disappoint you, you understand.
"EV range" is the new "Horsepower Ratings". Independent tests dyno'ed bike horsepower at the rear wheel - manufacturers and shills took it at the piston crown, apparently.
As always, we'll see.
Lannis
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When the novelity of an electric street bike wears off...You are left with just another minimal operator skill vehicle like a leisure power boat... :evil:
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Sure. Not to disappoint you, you understand.
"EV range" is the new "Horsepower Ratings". Independent tests dyno'ed bike horsepower at the rear wheel - manufacturers and shills took it at the piston crown, apparently.
As always, we'll see.
Lannis
Just trying to keep some of the things in this thread reality based. EV range is definitely NOT the new horsepower rating. EV Range is based on an EPA test, and manufacturers don't just get to claim it, same as mpg ratings for ICE vehicles. Horsepower is something a manufacturer can just claim without independent verification.
The Chevy Bolt has a published range of 238 miles. That is about right on average. It does vary with driving conditions of course, but I have gone as far as 280 miles doing nothing special. You get better range in moderate weather (little need for heat or AC), and if speed is generally below 60 mph.
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Just trying to keep some of the things in this thread reality based. EV range is definitely NOT the new horsepower rating. EV Range is based on an EPA test, and manufacturers don't just get to claim it, same as mpg ratings for ICE vehicles.
Most of the ranges I've seen to date (if they even publish one) are manufacturers and magazine testers claims, not some sort of official "EPA" rating. Not to mention that I've never found "EPA" mileage ratings to be particularly accurate in the real world.
The State of California knows that these vehicles cause cancer and reproductive harm, like my computer mouse, so I have great confidence in them.
But once enough of them get on the road to get some real data, and not just magazine articles, we'll see.
Lannis
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Some may find this newsletter interesting. It's a new publication from the Cycle World folks. They're thrashing around for a viable business model. https://www.cyclevolta.com/
Disclaimer: I've now built four EVs: My Yamaha TA125 conversion, which will soon be on the road again with salvaged Prius batteries, and a couple of clunker mountain bikes with generic Chinese hub motors (count is four because I upgraded Gail's bike from 36 volts and 250 watts to 48 volts and 500 watts). In good weather we use the bikes often for shopping trips and live-music events in town -- I just sling a couple of camp chairs across my back and we can ride straight into the city park and we have enough carrying capacity to load up a picnic including a small cooler. I'm sold on the convenience, user-friendliness, economy and low maintenance of EVs. If we still lived in the city and had to commute, I'd have an e-car. Of course it's entirely impractical for trips, including my frequent ski travel. Hence the Subaru and AWD van in the family.
(https://i.ibb.co/Gp4hRkP/yamavolt-006.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Gp4hRkP)
Yamaha photo taken in test-wired mode -- I cleaned it up later to hide the mess.
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Most of the ranges I've seen to date (if they even publish one) are manufacturers and magazine testers claims, not some sort of official "EPA" rating. Not to mention that I've never found "EPA" mileage ratings to be particularly accurate in the real world.
The State of California knows that these vehicles cause cancer and reproductive harm, like my computer mouse, so I have great confidence in them.
But once enough of them get on the road to get some real data, and not just magazine articles, we'll see.
Lannis,
The "some sort of official EPA rating" is on the window sticker of every car sold in the US. And "accuracy in the real world" is a red herring. There are way too many variables in the real world, driver being one of the biggest, and what is "accurate" for you probably won't be for me. The ratings are comparable car to car, which is the key to their relevance.
What I was contesting was your statement that "EV range" is the new "horsepower rating". This is a false comparison. EV range is based on standardized third party testing, and is comparable vehicle to vehicle. HP ratings are not standardized and are not generally third party generated.
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I have no quibble with your data, but it is very misleading because it ignores the tax incentives (like them or not, not wanting to debate that, just pointing out they exist).
Pretty much any used EV on the market will have depreciated an extra $7500 (or much more in some states) due to the tax incentive that the original purchaser received and a used buyer is not eligible for. For example, in Colorado that $500 per month over the first 2 years depreciation you cite would net to $0 depreciation for the original purchaser, who would have received the full depreciation amount in state and federal tax credits.
I was looking to buy a zero dual sport a while ago and then I found out that I will pay more for one in Tennessee than any other state because there are no incentives. On principal I will not pay more for something than someone else pays.
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I was looking to buy a zero dual sport a while ago and then I found out that I will pay more for one in Tennessee than any other state because there are no incentives. On principal I will not pay more for something than someone else pays.
By incentives do you mean a price reduction because of gov't money? Or does the manufactuer just gove a discount?
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By incentives do you mean a price reduction because of gov't money? Or does the manufactuer just gove a discount?
The price reduction because of tax payer money.
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Fellas , you know the drill .
Dusty
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Somebody was right, said this “the stupidest thread ever “, I think it was Dusty.
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Not even close
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I'm sold on the convenience, user-friendliness, economy and low maintenance of EVs. If we still lived in the city and had to commute, I'd have an e-car. Of course it's entirely impractical for trips, including my frequent ski travel. Hence the Subaru and AWD van in the family.
You sound like like an excellent case-study on the ownership of IC vs electric vehicles.
You're an expert (as I know) on solar power and alternative energy sources. You've built your own electric motorcycles. You're sold on the convenience, user-friendliness, economy, and low maintenance of EVs. You've GOT to be in the top 1% of "likely, informed, unbiased, ready-to-buy, and able-to-buy" when it comes to EVs.
And yet you don't own one, despite their universal availability.
What does that bode for the "rest of us"? What will it take?
Lannis
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And yet you don't own one, despite their universal availability.
When the Subaru wears out (250,000 miles from now) we'll acquire a used EV, though we'll need AWD because of the steep snowy road onto our mesa (we'd have one now except I spend a lot of money on the motorcycle herd). Several of our neighbors do own EVs -- they're great for the two-mile trip into town. For that purpose a golf cart would do nicely and one of our neighbors has one, though of course it's not street legal, hence our electric bikes. The EV owners all have solar arrays too, so free fuel. Colorado -- a purple oil/gas/coal mining state -- offers incentives for EV and solar purchases. Our public utilities have to meet a 30% renewable energy standard in 2020, rural co-ops 20%.
About 100 local salaries come out of the coal mine about eight miles upstream, and most working folks around here need pickup trucks for real. We are decidedly not San Francisco.
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When the Subaru wears out (250,000 miles from now) we'll acquire a used EV, though we'll need AWD because of the steep snowy road onto our mesa (we'd have one now except I spend a lot of money on the motorcycle herd). Several of our neighbors do own EVs -- they're great for the two-mile trip into town.....
OK, but despite the enthusiasm for EVs among this gearhead Guzzi crowd here (700+ strong according to the "Check In" thread estimates), I've gone back and done as much looking as I can at 2:30 in the morning, and I only see that a couple of folks here actually own electric cars. Like 2.
Everyone else knows someone, or is gonna get one someday, or is about to get one, or sees more and more of them, or is waiting for the range to get fixed, or waiting to figure out what to do with the batteries when they're dead, or figure out how to get a charge in the middle of the day, or something. Just doesn't have that "real" feeling where a veritable tsunami of EVs is coming, and we'd better get ready 'cause this trend is rampin' and stampin' and hollerin' for meat ....
But that's been said enough times. Just wanted to respond to what I considered credible info, analysis and experience.
Lannis
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At work, over half our fork truck fleet has gone electric from propane. As we replace them when they wear out, they will be replaced by electric. Cost per hour for electric is much less according to our maintenance departments spreadsheets. They track purchase price, maintenance costs and fuel consumption, along with down time. Operators also prefer them over the IC propane trucks.
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Electric vehicles are liked more so by those who often buy new vehicles...the other half, including me, drive well used vehicles and bikes would never buy something new, aka, expensive that can't be paid for with cash...
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Ok guys, we naysayers are in check. Here is the new EV Ford F-150 that is yo he released in two years. You know when the Ford F-150 goes slot car our beloved internal combustion engine is history🥵 lol I love this forum, it’s better than watching my grandkids fuss:)
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Ok guys, we naysayers are in check. Here is the new EV Ford F-150 that is yo he released in two years. You know when the Ford F-150 goes slot car our beloved internal combustion engine is history🥵 lol I love this forum, it’s better than watching my grandkids fuss:)
Well , that'll cause some of these old hidebound types to have an apoplectic fit .
Dusty
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At work, over half our fork truck fleet has gone electric from propane. As we replace them when they wear out, they will be replaced by electric. Cost per hour for electric is much less according to our maintenance departments spreadsheets. They track purchase price, maintenance costs and fuel consumption, along with down time. Operators also prefer them over the IC propane trucks.
Absolutely. We had a fleet of 20 fork lifts in the shipping/receiving area of the plant I used to manage, and electric had propane beat all to pieces. Use them inside or out with no smell or CO problems, easy to operate, less fire danger.
Never were more than about 600 yards from a charging station; when one ran low on juice, park it at the charging station and hop on another one and go another 8 hours while the first one charged for the next-but-one shift. Excellent application.
Lannis
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Forgot to show the picture. That’s what happens when in a panic over EV’s😂
(https://i.ibb.co/2c1jdSn/B3-A5-B34-C-D376-4-DFA-AFB1-D4-DD9-C7-B0244.png) (https://ibb.co/2c1jdSn)
flip tails website (https://freeonlinedice.com/)
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Forgot to show the picture. That’s what happens when in a panic over EV’s😂
(https://i.ibb.co/2c1jdSn/B3-A5-B34-C-D376-4-DFA-AFB1-D4-DD9-C7-B0244.png) (https://ibb.co/2c1jdSn)
flip tails website (https://freeonlinedice.com/)
Looks more like a Beechmont Ford Performance Retro F150.
Has a big honkin' IC engine, that does. Better check.
Lannis
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Since this thread is supposed to be about the Livewire, I thought I'd give my impressions since I got to ride this one today.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Marques/Harley-Davidson/Miscellaneous/i-zzKzkdP/0/39a413ae/XL/livewire1-XL.jpg)
There was a demo truck in town set up at one of the parking lots at Globe Life Park (Texas Rangers baseball home) in Arlington. They were to be there Friday thru Sunday, so my son talked me into going over with him to check them out and I have to say I was quite impressed with the bike. It is a nicely finished, complete package and up to the standards I expect from H-D. They did a really nice job on the bike. Riding it is a unique experience as it feels quite different from any other bike I've ever ridden, but familiar at the same time since it handled as well as the Motus or my old Buell Ulysses in the short time I had to ride it. Throttle response is perfect, smooth and linear. Acceleration is breathtaking, brakes excellent and the ride is firm but comfortable. The riding position is slightly leaned forward, but not overly aggressive. Actually quite similar to the Motus. Of course as soon as I put the kick stand up, I reached for the nonexistent clutch lever. It takes a little bit of time to acclimate to the machine. The strangest feeling is coming to a stop at an intersection and having a completely dead machine under you. No engine sounds or vibrations. No anything, almost. I said "almost" because though the bike lacks all the characteristics we normally associate with the H-D engine, they did literally give it a heartbeat. Every two or three seconds, while you are sitting still, you can feel a very faint thump in the seat and pegs just as though it had a pulse. It's actually kind of neat.
Range was stated as 95 to 145 miles depending what you're doing. The low end of that range is highway cruising, and the high end is around town. Intuitively, that seems backwards, but the difference is in the regenerative braking in stop and go traffic which recovers some of the used energy every time you slow down. You don't get that droning down the highway at a constant speed. Charge time is ~1 hour to go from completely drained to full at a charging station, or 6 to 10 hours if plugged in at home. If I knew I'd never need more range than it has, or I had another bike to cover the times I did need more range, I'd be happy to own and ride one. I'm just not sure I'm willing to purchase another $30k motorcycle.
Another thing that was interesting, was the people that came to ride the Livewire. There were probably 30 to 40 bikes that came and went while we were there. My son was on his Triumph Sprint RS and there was one guy on a Zero electric. All the rest were Harleys and most of them baggers. A few of the folks were in the stereotypical biker attire, but most were not. Ages ranged from ~30 to my 72. I was really surprised there weren't more people there on other brands. Lots of people claim that the Harley faithful won't accept the new models, but they appear to be the ones with an interest in this one. And a number of the guys had been there on Friday or Saturday and came back to ride again. Another thing that was unusual for a demo event was that the rides were unaccompanied. Just get on the bike and go, come back in about ten minutes. Get back in line if you want to ride again.
It was a fun morning, except for my son's clutch cable breaking as he was headed back home from my house. Wouldn't have had that problem on a Livewire.
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Thanks for the review. Sounds like it would be a lot of fun.
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Looks more like a Beechmont Ford Performance Retro F150.
Has a big honkin' IC engine, that does. Better check.
Lannis
Don’t know Lannis, the add had a picture of a vehicle with some type of covering attachment on the skin as to hide some of the features and also this picture. So you may be right. I thought maybe someone had sneaked a picture of the real McCoy.
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At work, over half our fork truck fleet has gone electric from propane. As we replace them when they wear out, they will be replaced by electric. Cost per hour for electric is much less according to our maintenance departments spreadsheets. They track purchase price, maintenance costs and fuel consumption, along with down time. Operators also prefer them over the IC propane trucks.
I worked in the warehouse of a juice factory after school in the late 70s. All of our fork lifts and fork trucks were electric. We had to use an overhead crane to change out the batteries. I had holes in T-shirts from the acid in those lead acid batteries.
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I worked in the warehouse of a juice factory after school in the late 70s. All of our fork lifts and fork trucks were electric. We had to use an overhead crane to change out the batteries. I had holes in T-shirts from the acid in those lead acid batteries.
Food processors almost never use petro-fueled handling equipment; too much danger of fuel or combustion products getting into the food somehow.
PRAB-Versatran, a major robot manufacturer of the 1980s, out of Kalamazoo Michigan, was building a group of process robots for my company, and we visited them all the time to sort out the communication protocols for the control computers (DEC PDP-11) to which they would interface in our factory.
While we were there, they showed up a robotic production line they were building for Campbell's Soup. The robots were hydraulically powered, and the "hands" of the robot would be over top of the vats of soup that the robots were mixing and stirring. To solve the potential contamination problem if a hydraulic line leaked or broke, Campbell's specified that they entire hydraulic system, pumps, lines, cylinders, actuators, etc had to be food-grade clean, and that the hydraulic fluid had to be Wesson Vegetable Oil, clean and edible.
So the whole hydraulic system was built out of stainless steel with silicone O-rings and seals, and powered by Wesson oil ....
Anyway, that's one way to get around a problem.
Lannis
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Ok fellers here it is, the mother load of electric motorcycles, by Curtiss motorcycles, to start production in 2020 and starting at the introductory price of 75k. You EV guys feel free to slobber on your laptops or iPhones:)
(https://i.ibb.co/ynTYTxK/AA976429-6795-44-DF-827-F-5-CAF970-A0-A8-E.png) (https://ibb.co/ynTYTxK)
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Ok fellers here it is, the mother load of electric motorcycles, by Curtiss motorcycles, to start production in 2020 and starting at the introductory price of 75k. You EV guys feel free to slobber on your laptops or iPhones:)
(https://i.ibb.co/ynTYTxK/AA976429-6795-44-DF-827-F-5-CAF970-A0-A8-E.png) (https://ibb.co/ynTYTxK)
Looks like a Confederate , give me a minute , I'll come up with a better name than Hades , although probably not as good as *Plugindian* :grin:
Dusty
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Ok fellers here it is, the mother load of electric motorcycles, by Curtiss motorcycles, to start production in 2020 and starting at the introductory price of 75k. You EV guys feel free to slobber on your laptops or iPhones:)
(https://i.ibb.co/ynTYTxK/AA976429-6795-44-DF-827-F-5-CAF970-A0-A8-E.png) (https://ibb.co/ynTYTxK)
Curtiss loves his Greek mythology.... When he gets around to designing a Poseidon with a Trident I'll take a look! They are certainly innovative indeed!
Wonder if you can ride in the HOV lane in California with an electric bike like you can if you are a Tesla or Prius driver...
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well that Curtiss is certainly ...well endowed :bow: ..............a phallic symbol gone mad i would say :azn:
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Food processors almost never use petro-fueled handling equipment; too much danger of fuel or combustion products getting into the food somehow.
PRAB-Versatran, a major robot manufacturer of the 1980s, out of Kalamazoo Michigan, was building a group of process robots for my company, and we visited them all the time to sort out the communication protocols for the control computers (DEC PDP-11) to which they would interface in our factory.
While we were there, they showed up a robotic production line they were building for Campbell's Soup. The robots were hydraulically powered, and the "hands" of the robot would be over top of the vats of soup that the robots were mixing and stirring. To solve the potential contamination problem if a hydraulic line leaked or broke, Campbell's specified that they entire hydraulic system, pumps, lines, cylinders, actuators, etc had to be food-grade clean, and that the hydraulic fluid had to be Wesson Vegetable Oil, clean and edible.
So the whole hydraulic system was built out of stainless steel with silicone O-rings and seals, and powered by Wesson oil ....
Anyway, that's one way to get around a problem.
Lannis
That's cool. Thanks for sharing that.
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Wonder if you can ride in the HOV lane in California with an electric bike like you can if you are a Tesla or Prius driver...
Aren't bikes already allowed in the HOV lanes? I mean, they can split lanes, might as well be allowed IN all lanes. :)
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In Ca., yes there are allowed in the HOV lane.
Tom
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If the Chinese have their way the future is electric powered vehicles.
A two year old article, but some interesting stats all the same:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/09/business/china-hastens-the-world-toward-an-electric-car-future.html
Already, China is the world’s largest maker and seller of electric cars. Chinese buyers are on track to snap up almost 300,000 of them this year, three times the number expected to be sold in the United States and more than the rest of the world combined.
The country’s market heft is considerable. China buys more General Motors-branded cars than Americans do. Even for Tesla, the still-small American maker of luxury electric sedans, China has become the second-largest market, even though China’s taxes on imported cars are 10 times as high as those in the United States. Tesla officials have said they are considering opening a factory in China.
A week ago, G.M. and Ford unveiled plans to add a combined 33 electric models to their lineups. Global manufacturers like G.M. and Volkswagen are also moving much of their research, development and production of electric cars to China. China in turn is pressuring them to share that technology with their Chinese partners.
And a current article which is interesting as it notes the increase in electric car market share:
https://fortune.com/2019/03/22/electric-car-showdown-china/
VW, which sold only about 8,000 electric and plug-in hybrids in China in 2018, according to Bloomberg, says it plans to sell an eye-popping 400,000 annually by next year and 1.5 million annually by 2025. Tesla, which resisted manufacturing in China when the country still required joint ventures, shifted strategy after the policy changes and broke ground in January on a factory in Shanghai, its first factory outside the U.S. Tesla says the plant will ultimately produce 500,000 electric cars annually.
When ever I read stories like this I keep thinking back to the National Geographic magazine we got when I was a kid and the pictures of the Chinese all in blue or green uniforms riding thousands of bicycles in Beijing. How the heck did they go from that image to where they are today?