Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: gfritzmeier on April 12, 2015, 04:17:38 PM
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I was just wondering if anyone has any experience with Lithium batteries in their bike??? I'm thinking of getting one but want to know the pro's and cons.
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Cons- they're pricey, smaller capacity so more prone to die if there is a parasitic drain, gets weaker when the temp drops below 50, quality seems to be hit or miss depending on the brand, your normal tender won't work with them, certain brands are sensitive to moisture causing shorts
Pros- Soooooo light! I replaced my 11 pound Yuasa with a tiny 1 pound Anti-gravity and the weight loss is very noticeable
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One of my sons has put one in his Harley and a Suzuki sport bike that he owns. Both have given him lots of problems when the weather turns coldish...........s o he finally gave up and trashed both of them.
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Fine if you live in the tropics. Mine needed to sit inside for hours just to start the Benelli which sleeps in a garage that never dips below 55F. Oh, once going, don't stop for lunch if the ambient is below 70F. Excessive starter solenoid consumption.
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I have no experience with Li Ion for MCs, however I wonder if the MCs charging system is up to handling a Li Ion.
The reason I say this is, I recentley attended a full disclosure meeting with the NTSB and the FAA regarding the Li Ion battery on the Boeing 787 as well as factory training.
As mentioned temperature has an effect, as temps increase above 90f there is a chemical change, so being in Texas I won't be buying one.
Fyi, the 787 Battery cost $86,000 each :o
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Fyi, the 787 Battery cost $86,000 each :o
That's OK, the fuel capacity is over 30,000 gallons, so one fillup costs more than a battery. :)
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Don't forget the safety issues. Li batteries are very known for exploding (violently) if shorted or heated. Are you sure you want to sit on that?
http://www.techlicious.com/blog/the-risk-of-exploding-lithium-ion-batteries/
This video is showing a failure of a lithium laptop battery. That batter is puny compared to what you would put in a bike.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V482lvMRXUg&feature=youtu.be
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Don't forget the safety issues. Li batteries are very known for exploding (violently) if shorted or heated. Are you sure you want to sit on that?
http://www.techlicious.com/blog/the-risk-of-exploding-lithium-ion-batteries/
This video is showing a failure of a lithium laptop battery. That batter is puny compared to what you would put in a bike.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V482lvMRXUg&feature=youtu.be
The lithium iron phosphate batteries used for vehicles are different than lithium ion laptop batteries.
No danger of thermal runaway.
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Cons- they're pricey, smaller capacity so more prone to die if there is a parasitic drain, gets weaker when the temp drops below 50, quality seems to be hit or miss depending on the brand, your normal tender won't work with them, certain brands are sensitive to moisture causing shorts
Pros- Soooooo light! I replaced my 11 pound Yuasa with a tiny 1 pound Anti-gravity and the weight loss is very noticeable
the 11 lbs lost came from an empty wallet!
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Been using them for years. Love them. Have patience below 50 and hit the starter a couple times. It will rev up and fire the bike pretty quickly. Parasitic drain is not its friend. Sounds like the haters don't understand them. You DON"T need to warm them up inside the house before use. Just because the starter does possible NOTHING the first try means it's simply cold and needs to warm up. The juices get going pretty quickly, give them a few seconds after hitting the starter once or twice and away it will spin. I don't generally ride below 50 degrees so to me it's a non-issue. If you have no patience and like instant gratification, them don't get one if you ride in the cold. They actually hold a better charge in the cold.
So much is misunderstood about these things it's baffling.
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Love my Ballistic. Third year now, never a failure, and only gets a little slow at 40, then I just crank it twice.
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One of my sons has put one in his Harley and a Suzuki sport bike that he owns. Both have given him lots of problems when the weather turns coldish...........s o he finally gave up and trashed both of them.
Tell us the problems please? Did he know he can thumb the starter a couple times when they seem "weak"? They will get "strong" pretty quickly with a little patience <shrug>. My take is the Harley and sport bike types aren't going to like hearing their bike with a wimpy starter around their buddies at first attempt in cold temps. Guzzi guys don't care. These things will crank much harder for much longer than the lead/acid types that fade pretty quickly. If your bike is at all finicky at start-up you get many solid chances for it to fire up at full throttle of your starter.
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Yes to this:
"The lithium iron phosphate batteries used for vehicles are different than lithium ion laptop batteries." The lithium Iron used in a lot of the motorcycle batteries cannot catch fire.
I've been using a Ballistic in my 1000s for two years in Minnesota, never had an issue. left it in the garage all winter with no battery tender. My bike started right up a few weeks ago. Also, my headlight is noticeably brighter than with the old Yuasa. I get 14v at the posts whenever I've checked.
In the cold, a lithium-based battery will behave in a completely different manner than lead-acid. Often the most mechanically experienced among us find it hardest to wrap their heads around this (or somehow missed the memo). A lead acid battery begins cranking at it's strongest; in other words, your first attempt will be the strongest, with additional attempts growing weaker and weaker (assuming the engine doesn't fire). The OPPOSITE is true of a lithium ion battery. In the cold (40F or below) the first attempt may yield little or nothing, but as you attempt to crank again and again it will gain strength, starting the bike after ten or fifteen seconds of draw. This is an understood phenomenon. anything that creates a draw in the cold will internally warm the thing and it will produce good current. Some people have suggested plugging in your heated gear a few seconds before starting the bike, or installing a simple resistor on a switch, in the harness. Put a little draw on the battery for five or ten seconds, and the thing will fire right up.
The real downside of lithium (as others have noted) that any parasitic draw is much more dangerous to the battery. The literature warns that if one ever lets it drop below about 6v, these batteries are un-recoverable. Anecdotally however, I can report that I accidentally left my key in the "accessory" position over a weekend last summer, draining the battery to less than 3 volts, but after putting it on an ordinary charger it recovered and has been maintaining charge ever since.
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LiFe, Lithium IRON
Not to be confused with LiIon or LiPo.
Few of the safety issues of LiIon.
But, they can easily be destroyed if allowed to be drained.
They struggle to provide current when cold.
You really should use a special balance charger on them
Add to it that my factory AGM battery is now 11 years old and going strong. And I don't get the point of them.
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well, I cut about 19 lbs. of weight, freed up enough space for a tool kit in the battery compartment, have better start-up, brighter lights and dont need to worry about winter killing my battery if I don't put it on a tender. But other than that, I guess, nothing.
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Been using them for years. Love them. Have patience below 50 and hit the starter a couple times. It will rev up and fire the bike pretty quickly. Parasitic drain is not its friend. Sounds like the haters don't understand them. You DON"T need to warm them up inside the house before use. Just because the starter does possible NOTHING the first try means it's simply cold and needs to warm up. The juices get going pretty quickly, give them a few seconds after hitting the starter once or twice and away it will spin. I don't generally ride below 50 degrees so to me it's a non-issue. If you have no patience and like instant gratification, them don't get one if you ride in the cold. They actually hold a better charge in the cold.
So much is misunderstood about these things it's baffling.
So true. The stories about exploding batteries are for a different chemistry. When AGM batteries first came out, there were plenty of stories about them too and then they get ingrained in mythology and to date you'll get folks that won't use an AGM because of old stories.
Pound for pound, nothing can compare to the capacity of a lithium. They also discharge in a very linear fashion, unlike other batteries. They also charge much faster because they have lower internal resistance.
The real high quality lithiums can use the bikes charging system as is.
We'll spend big bucks on a new exhaust, then have to remap the bike just for a better sound, rework a center or side stand, then go cheap on the battery. Go figure.
Recently had to start a 90 Buick with a completely dead battery. Hooked up a lithium battery pack the size of two smartphones stacked and it started the car right up. That battery pack can fit into your pocket. Connect it, waited 5 seconds and car started.
Sold.
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For under $100 bucks I now have an Antigravity battery (jumpstart) the size of my iPhone 5 that will jump start a V8 truck. It's got a flashlight and warning lights on it also and weighs 8oz
I now have it on me when I ride and when in the truck. I figure I can help others also. Jumper cables are small and fit in my pocket. Cheap insurance. Oh... it comes with all the hookups for charging your phone/laptop/tablet also. Just plug them in. No charger necessary for it as it plugs into your wall or cigarette lighter in vehicle. To me these are no-brainers to carry along.
Wayne, think weight/space savings and more cranking power. I've owned one about 5 years now with no issues. I'll let you know when I hit 11 years. ;)
Once people get educated...
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Don't forget the safety issues. Li batteries are very known for exploding (violently) if shorted or heated. Are you sure you want to sit on that?
http://www.techlicious.com/blog/the-risk-of-exploding-lithium-ion-batteries/
This video is showing a failure of a lithium laptop battery. That batter is puny compared to what you would put in a bike.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V482lvMRXUg&feature=youtu.be
You are sitting on a combustion engine... beware! ::)
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That there "Search" box for the board will get you lots of results as per lithium batteries - and quite a number of frustrations but always with a few folks who love them too. Total fail here and I'll never buy another for KY climate. Bought Shorai battery and special charger for my former Stelvio. Had big high hopes. Stranded me in less than a week even after coming off the charger that morning. But wow did it save a ton of weight on my parking lot only top heavy Stelvio (once moving a graceful dancer) that I owned for a while. Best advice seems to me if you have the money go ahead and buy one but if you have boxes, take the standard battery with you everywhere you go for the first couple weeks just in case.
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http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=757934
That link may have been posted before, but it's a must-read if you are considering lithium, in my opinion. And it offers all around good battery stuff in general.
Sarah
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Sounds like the haters don't understand them. You DON"T need to warm them up inside the house before use.
I understand them and LA types. I was a battery service tech, material handling equipment. I purchased the first one with the balance charger. That one overheated to the point of too hot to touch. Warrantied out. The replacement did not overheat but could not start the machine below 70F. And I was using the 12 cell Ballistic where the cross ref indicated the 8 cell would be sufficient. Two solenoids fried within two months trying to get enough heat built up to crank the bike. Using the balance charger in the garage before the first attempt did not help. The only way to crank the bike was to remove and keep it inside overnight or set in front of the register for a bit. Doing that, she cranked with gusto. Every stop below 70F was an exercise in frustration. Charging system on the bike works as designed. If they work for you, good. I ride year round and need reliable, first try starting.
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I've had a Shorai in my Honda XR650L now for 3 years. Battery had same CCA as stock but 1/3 the size. Has worked flawlessly for 3 years. Never on a tender...as you have to have special chargers for these.
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When my 10 year old AGM Bartley dies on thr R 1100S I'll be going to lithium because of the weight savings and the high, under the tank location.
On the Stelvio, don't really see enough benefits for the cost.
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Sounds like the haters don't understand them. You DON"T need to warm them up inside the house before use.
I understand them and LA types. I was a battery service tech, material handling equipment. I purchased the first one with the balance charger. That one overheated to the point of too hot to touch. Warrantied out. The replacement did not overheat but could not start the machine below 70F. And I was using the 12 cell Ballistic where the cross ref indicated the 8 cell would be sufficient. Two solenoids fried within two months trying to get enough heat built up to crank the bike. Using the balance charger in the garage before the first attempt did not help. The only way to crank the bike was to remove and keep it inside overnight or set in front of the register for a bit. Doing that, she cranked with gusto. Every stop below 70F was an exercise in frustration. Charging system on the bike works as designed. If they work for you, good. I ride year round and need reliable, first try starting.
You sir had a bad battery. As a service tech knowing your stuff I would have returned the second as well. I can see why you have a bad taste in your mouth, but that is very unusual behavior for any battery, let alone a 12 cell. A 12 cell should be able to power your house. There are duds with all batteries sorry to say... but you know this.
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The link Sarah posted is the most complete explanation of the Lithium battery issue I have seen yet.
The main point that some might miss in all that.
You have to size the battery properly, NOT use what the mfg's recommend. For cold weather especially, you need enough capacity to 1) heat the battery and 2) start the engine. If you use the mfg's recommendations you get enough for starting but not for heating and starting, which is why many people have such a bad experience with them. If you are going to be in really cold climates you basically need a much larger capacity battery, which will be very expensive.
When I looked at them a year ago I was going to have to spend in the >$400 range for a battery. I ride fairly often when the temps are in the 20's. Most of my rides start with temps in the low 40's. So, huge capacity is needed.
I currently have a garden tractor battery in the bike. It is going on 3 yrs now so am looking to replace and will go with an AGM, only because of the price difference.
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The link Sarah posted is the most complete explanation of the Lithium battery issue I have seen yet.
The main point that some might miss in all that.
You have to size the battery properly, NOT use what the mfg's recommend. For cold weather especially, you need enough capacity to 1) heat the battery and 2) start the engine. If you use the mfg's recommendations you get enough for starting but not for heating and starting, which is why many people have such a bad experience with them. If you are going to be in really cold climates you basically need a much larger capacity battery, which will be very expensive.
When I looked at them a year ago I was going to have to spend in the >$400 range for a battery. I ride fairly often when the temps are in the 20's. Most of my rides start with temps in the low 40's. So, huge capacity is needed.
I currently have a garden tractor battery in the bike. It is going on 3 yrs now so am looking to replace and will go with an AGM, only because of the price difference.
Not really true Charlie. Heating the battery isn't the issue, it's capacity. As the article points out, if you store the bike with a half toasted battery from the night before, there will not be enough "activity" left to start the bike. Why is there a half toasted battery from the night before? Because someone hooked up heated gear, etc. that took an amp draw out of the battery that it could ill afford. So... the cold start is not the issue, it's capacity. If you hook up extras like ADV Riders do, then you need much more capacity in your LiFe battery which makes sense because that's not their strong suit. Living in a cold climate alone does not make for the necessity to have WAY more battery than recommended by the manufacturer. If you run extras get more cells, if not, I have had no issues being at the bottom of the range. I'm currently using a 4 cell that is ONLY recommended for racing bikes with no extras and high charge rates. I am having no issues with charge even with cold starts, but I run NO extras. It has very little capacity but lots of zip to turn over the starter on a small block (still less than my previous 8 cell, but adequate). It weighs 13 oz. I started the bike 6 different times (some with high turnover rates) on my 115 mile run yesterday, came home and found it fully charged. I'm giving a good test with something too small and not recommended for my bike. So far so good. You don't ALWAYS need more for every application.
These are the opposite ends:
Adventure rider uses a ton of extras that use capacity and the bike can't charge at a rate to keep up thus using battery capacity.
-Must use as large a LiFe battery as possible.
Cafe bike with NO extras, runs higher RPM with good charge rate and longer rides to fully charge the battery.
-Can use minimal capacity LiFe battery
You need to be aware before purchase. I agree that at some point it isn't worth the $$ to use these things. I won't argue that.
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Capacity for starting is the issue.
If you are using more electrical gear than your alternator can produce then you have more problems than just the battery.
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Wayne, think weight/space savings and more cranking power.
More cranking power when it is below freezing, I'll stick with my AGM.
If weight saving mattered, I wouldn't be riding a Moto Guzzi with a trailer hitch on it.
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Cafe bike with NO extras, runs higher RPM with good charge rate and longer rides to fully charge the battery.
-Can use minimal capacity LiFe battery
So how low can I go on a V50 safely? The Guzzi probably never goes out below 10 degrees C (52F ish).
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So how low can I go on a V50 safely? The Guzzi probably never goes out below 10 degrees C (52F ish).
8 cell is perfect. I'm only doing an "Extreme" 4-cell Antigravity that gives good cranking but little capacity because of my application. I want it hidden. Not sure but the Antigravity 4cell regular battery would likely crank a 500cc (as I believe that's the limit they state) and has better capacity. Do a little research on that. The 8 would be more than plenty and it's still very small (any brand). I've had an 8 cell for years on my 650 Lario. Never missed a beat.
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The Shorai in my Breva 1100 was cranking fine a few weeks ago when the morning temperatures were down around freezing. My son has had no problems with the Shorai I put in his SV650S ABS. When my Shiver needs a new battery, I'll probably buy another Shorai. I also want to get one of those little pocket size jump boxes.
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More cranking power when it is below freezing, I'll stick with my AGM.
If weight saving mattered, I wouldn't be riding a Moto Guzzi with a trailer hitch on it.
We all have our justifications Wayne. Still pros and cons to everything. Lots of myths that need dismything here. You have a valid point for not wanting weight savings and wanting pocket savings as well as one-hit starts below freezing. These will still spin your starter faster once warmed up after a couple hits than an AGM.
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Just so you don't think I'm in bed with these batteries, the case I wouldn't use one would be a bike that had ANY draw while parked or a bike I didn't care about weight savings and started easily. Boils down to value and need. For a finicky carb bike these are pretty awesome batteries with good hard and long spin rates.
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I don't have an opinion other than the Li batteries are probably a bad idea in Alaska. Not passing judgment on the warmer climates. But I'm wondering what the 'savings' are when you have to work the starter so hard and so many times before the superior technology wakes up and starts the bike. It seems that the perceived economy of $$ and weight is negated by wear, tear, and probably premature starter failure. :-\
$0.02, ymwpv
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I've used a Shorai in my Suzuki SV-1000 sport bike for 5 months. Really cranks fast and instant starting. No problems so far. This battery reduced my bike's weight by 8#. Not insignificant on a sport bike with a rather slightly-built rider. I'm at my strength limit with the Stones!
Ralph
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Lots of FUD about Li batteries in this thread..... >:(
I've had a LiPo in my Stelvio for 6 months. No issues at all. More CCA than stock, never seems to drain down even sitting for 4 weeks, always starts the bike with no dramas. If it ever does drain down (would take 6+ months), can be topped up in 10 min on a charger. ;-T
-NV
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http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=57802.0
While I like the way it cranks the bike, cool to cold weather does not allow the bike to crank without lots of starter button jabs.
I don't think it is the battery so much as the computer in the Breva 1100
several times, it has been below 60 and no crank, it doesn't show over 12 volts on the dash. hook up the 2 amp charger so it shows over 12 volts and it cranks everytime. Just know the issues, I won't buy another one for the Breva, but would as long the computer doesn't control the circuit.
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I've mentioned this before, so the technology might be better now. I was at an April rally in Ohio 2-3 years ago, and a guy with a Triumph had a *really* hard time starting his bike in high 30s/low 40s temps both days. Apparently the low voltage did something weird to the timing, and it would crank, backfire, crank, backfire ad nauseum. It eventually started both days, but it took literally 20 minutes or better. I was unimpressed. ;D
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Lots of FUD about Li batteries in this thread..... >:(
I've had a LiPo in my Stelvio for 6 months. No issues at all. More CCA than stock, never seems to drain down even sitting for 4 weeks, always starts the bike with no dramas. If it ever does drain down (would take 6+ months), can be topped up in 10 min on a charger. ;-T
-NV
The suspended crowd will believe what they want. My (much older) friend who has an open mind and dose his research got his 12 cell today for his V11 Lemans and can't believe how bright his lights are and how fast his bike cranks. I see LED technology (being more efficient) making lack of capacity even easier. He has some aux LED lights and I don't see it being an issue.
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After two leaking Yuasa AGM units and the results in the pic I was done with lead acid. Installed an Antigravity sixteen cell and have never had any issues in any weather conditions. Even bought the special charger for the AG and have never needed it.
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y113/GuzziRider/20131123_131419_zps1fec3a40.jpg) (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/GuzziRider/media/20131123_131419_zps1fec3a40.jpg.html)
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I get the impression that the guys with problems have CANBUS bikes, or others where the ECU monitors voltage beforeallowing starts.
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The suspended crowd will believe what they want. My (much older) friend who has an open mind and dose his research got his 12 cell today for his V11 Lemans and can't believe how bright his lights are and how fast his bike cranks.
I don't just believe what I want, I know.
I know that on my bikes, my alternator output is right near 14.2 volts. It doesn't matter one bit what battery chemistry I use, it is 14.2 volt max. That is set by the regulator. Just because the lights are a touch brighter when you first turn on the key, simply means the resting voltage is a bit different, which means nothing to me.
What DOES mean something to me is that I ride year round. I often come out of work at 1am., it is often below freezing, even here in Georgia. I don't want to fart with baby sitting a battery, I want to press the button and go. I have that today. Why fart with something that WORKS WELL for me and costs a lot more?
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kevdog ....
You were doing good here:
“Just so you don't think I'm in bed with these batteries ….”
And then ruined it here:
“The suspended crowd will believe what they want….”
You're almost to street preaching! :pop
Lannis
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Well said, Wayne. The Benelli is always parked with the kill switch off and it is not a CANBUS system. Parasitic draw is zero; I checked with a Fluke. Reading forums and threads, it seems the A123 cells used by Ballistic do not have the capacity of the prismatic type. I compare electricity to water-A bucket holds more than a glass(amphours) and more water flows through a large pipe than a small one(amps) at the same pressure(12 volts for electricity). If a battery company wants my money, let me try one first. I'll pay for it only if the Lithium types can give the same trouble free starts in any weather as my LA ones. For the V11, I'm considering one because of the leakage stories.
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kevdog ....
You were doing good here:
“Just so you don't think I'm in bed with these batteries ….”
And then ruined it here:
“The suspended crowd will believe what they want….”
You're almost to street preaching! :pop
Lannis
Perhaps, but I was thinking more along the lines of Carbs vs. FI and points vs. EI. There are a good many "suspender types" that hear of a case of someone on the roadside due to electronic failure and can't start a bike. What do you think they say? Yeah... I like carbs too and was stranded for a poor connection to my fuel pump, but I won't espouse that FI sucks. Well... I'm seeing the same thing here with "exploding batteries", "won't spin up the starter in cold temps so throw it away", "need way more capacity than you think you do". The inverse would be me saying "AGM leak acid". TBH... I think that's extremely rare to the point I wouldn't call it a negative just like some of these other points being spun. I think we describe the "suspender crowd" as being a little "stuck in their ways" (jokingly of course). ;) I see for someone like Wayne that he doesn't need something light or small and certainly not something that costs a bit more. Sometimes the justification for it is more the exception to the rule from personal experience. I'm not saying you should get a lithium, but rather that you need to be careful what you believe from the peanut gallery; there are two sides. My lithium was probably cheaper than an AGM of equal quality; you NEVER hear that!! I think a good AGM is almost a buck fifty now? My 4-cell was just over a buck. I'm not sure I could do $300 for a battery personally. Both battery types are good and have their place... bottom line. Like it or not, we are moving away from lead/acid. I am all for battery technology as I've always wondered why we talk so much about bike batteries and so little about car batteries through the years? Cars don't seem to have nearly the issues. Charging to farkles? capacity? What is the problem? Anyone care to comment on this?
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kevdog ....
You were doing good here:
“Just so you don't think I'm in bed with these batteries ….”
And then ruined it here:
“The suspended crowd will believe what they want….”
You're almost to street preaching! :pop
Lannis
"suspended crowd", "closed minds", "peanut gallery". He might try debating an issue without denigrating.
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I am all for battery technology as I've always wondered why we talk so much about bike batteries and so little about car batteries through the years? Cars don't seem to have nearly the issues. Charging to farkles? capacity? What is the problem? Anyone care to comment on this?
I have my "own" battery soapbox. On a motorcycle, a thing that can lean over and fall over and maybe vibrates some, I don't see the point any more in having an essentially open bucket of sulfuric acid sloshing around between your legs, and draining its vapors and splashes directly onto the chrome and paint of one's motorcycle. Today they make lovely SEALED UP batteries of various kinds that can NOT splash acid around; and yet many people still buy the old kind, because they like it for being old, and maybe cheap. Not me!
Car batteries are bigger, and heavier without penalty, and in an environment where a little acid vapor hardly makes a difference; but you can buy $300 car batteries for your sporty-car that are light and sealed up and I'm sure the car forums are loaded with discussions as to whether a sealed $300 Optima battery is better than a $80 lead-acid Exide battery like from your dad's Hudson Hornet.
Discussions usually stay civil until a sentence structured like "Anyone who thinks X is either Y or has never Z ..." shows up!
Lannis
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I have my "own" battery soapbox. On a motorcycle, a thing that can lean over and fall over and maybe vibrates some, I don't see the point any more in having an essentially open bucket of sulfuric acid sloshing around between your legs, and draining its vapors and splashes directly onto the chrome and paint of one's motorcycle. Today they make lovely SEALED UP batteries of various kinds that can NOT splash acid around; and yet many people still buy the old kind, because they like it for being old, and maybe cheap. Not me!
Car batteries are bigger, and heavier without penalty, and in an environment where a little acid vapor hardly makes a difference; but you can buy $300 car batteries for your sporty-car that are light and sealed up and I'm sure the car forums are loaded with discussions as to whether a sealed $300 Optima battery is better than a $80 lead-acid Exide battery like from your dad's Hudson Hornet.
Discussions usually stay civil until a sentence structured like "Anyone who thinks X is either Y or has never Z ..." shows up!
Lannis
Yes sir, or until someone starts to change the subject matter over to civility. Maybe talk to Rocker if you feel it should get pulled. I'm ok with that if you feel there's been name calling.
Sincerely,
Kevin
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Yes sir, or until someone starts to change the subject matter over to civility. Maybe talk to Rocker if you feel it should get pulled. I'm ok with that if you feel there's been name calling.
Sincerely,
Kevin
No, no, not me ... I'm just commenting generally on postings on WG overall, sort of daffing about. You haven't done any name calling or anything outside the pale at all, don't mind me. But you know how an innocuous subject like 4WD or Oil or Tires or even something innocent like "The Jew is Using the Black as Muscle Against You" can turn fractious and hot in a minute ..... ;)
Lannis
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I see for someone like Wayne that he doesn't need something light or small and certainly not something that costs a bit more. Sometimes the justification for it is more the exception to the rule from personal experience.
I guarantee that if I had a newer NTX Stelvio, with the battery laying on the side and leaking acid, that I would be looking for an alternative. LiFe may be that alternative.
And you get the people that think that LiFe = LiIon or LiPo. It does not. That adds to the mess. Or someone says 'I turned on the key and the lights are brighter'. Resting voltage doesn't mean a lot here. So the real facts are muddy.
But my main concern when I see these threads are the people that don't fully understand the difference. They heard on the internit that LiFe is great. So they get one, and they don't get the right size, so cold starting is a big issue. Or they hook up the wrong charger, and kill it. Or they have a parasitic load that kills it. And they really should have a special balancing charger. They are different, and not everyone will understand that when they buy one.
When I get a phone call from someone that is stranded because their high tech battery is dead, or just cold, I'm going to have a good laugh.
Now where are my suspenders. :BEER:
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I totally agree Wayne. You have to know the facts, good and bad. The cold thing could certainly make someone suspect it's dead if they don't know better only to find out when they get it home and off the truck it's bright and cheery. Hmmm...
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No, no, not me ... I'm just commenting generally on postings on WG overall, sort of daffing about. You haven't done any name calling or anything outside the pale at all, don't mind me. But you know how an innocuous subject like 4WD or Oil or Tires or even something innocent like "The Jew is Using the Black as Muscle Against You" can turn fractious and hot in a minute ..... ;)
Lannis
OK Lannis, thanks for the explanation, and yes. I've seen my share of misunderstandings. :P
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In regard to the "resting voltage" comments, my headlight is noticeably brighter when running Li-Fe not only before starting but while the bike is running.
Before I bought the lithium I was considering making the wiring modification that takes a direct connection from battery to headlight (with a relay from the light switch), because the headlight was so dim during my night-time commute that it felt unsafe. After I put in the ballistic, the headlight is much brighter during my commute.
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In regard to the "resting voltage" comments, my headlight is noticeably brighter when running Li-Fe not only before starting but while the bike is running.
Before I bought the lithium I was considering making the wiring modification that takes a direct connection from battery to headlight (with a relay from the light switch), because the headlight was so dim during my night-time commute that it felt unsafe. After I put in the ballistic, the headlight is much brighter during my commute.
Interesting. My friend just installed his and has had the dreaded voltage reg light come on for quite some time (V11 lemans). He baked it to get the moisture out which seemed to help while it sat over the winter so thought he was done with it. Oh yes, he bought a new one before that as well to no avail. Stayed on recently with the key. After install of this battery, he says it's gone off. We both suspected it might be a battery thing after all he's done so maybe we will find out over time. Granted I think his battery has been pretty bad for some time, but it always started up and he didn't charge over the winter. It always seemed pretty doggy on startup compared to mine with a lead acid. He also seems to think the bike is more responsive now. He admits it might be in his head, but if things run more effectively (stronger) could it not mean your system as a whole could run the same?? Makes you wonder.
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In regard to the "resting voltage" comments, my headlight is noticeably brighter when running Li-Fe not only before starting but while the bike is running.
Before I bought the lithium I was considering making the wiring modification that takes a direct connection from battery to headlight (with a relay from the light switch), because the headlight was so dim during my night-time commute that it felt unsafe. After I put in the ballistic, the headlight is much brighter during my commute.
Not to be bursting your bubble, but volts is volts. Once you're running the alternator provides the power, not the battery. If you got better headlights while running it's more likely that you improved contact on the big wires when you changed the battery and are seeing the coincidental improvement made there. :)
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Not to be bursting your bubble, but volts is volts. Once you're running the alternator provides the power, not the battery. If you got better headlights while running it's more likely that you improved contact on the big wires when you changed the battery and are seeing the coincidental improvement made there. :)
So all stereo equipment should sound the same? All gauge wire does the same? All relays act identically with current? Cheap connectors are identical to hard solder connections? If you're saying current is current and nothing affects it I beg to differ.
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So all stereo equipment should sound the same? All gauge wire does the same? All relays act identically with current? Cheap connectors are identical to hard solder connections? If you're saying current is current and nothing affects it I beg to differ.
Ease up, Kev. We have a context here -- comment said that changing the battery made his headlights brighter while riding. He didn't change his stereo, wires, relays, or connectors. He only changed the battery, which assuming he has a working charging system isn't going make the headlights any brighter when the alternator is supplying the current. The alternator is supplying the current whenever its voltage exceeds battery voltage, which should be at a fairly low rpm. In the course of changing it, he might have either deliberately or accidently improved the connection. That's all I was saying.
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http://www.starkpower.com the boat dealer I work at just started carrying this line. pretty impressive batteries. they have a circuit board in them to prevent parasitic drain when the ignition is off, the big trolling motor batteries that bass boats use save them 100lbs in the boats versus traditional AGM or wet batteries.
the little jump boxes are very nice, they can crank a v-8 engine with out a battery, or can jump them off about 8 times with out a charge. they come with accessory plugs so you can charge a completely dead cell phone in 10 min, run a computer all day. when you touch the red and black jumpers together they don't spark because it senses and won't conduct.
check out the site. there is a difference in Lith batteries.
I will be buying one when my current battery gives up.
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Not to be bursting your bubble, but volts is volts. Once you're running the alternator provides the power, not the battery. If you got better headlights while running it's more likely that you improved contact on the big wires when you changed the battery and are seeing the coincidental improvement made there. Smiley
Makes sense. However since the old battery,an ancient yuasa, was actually in the circuit, Is it possible that it was creating resistance in regard to current flow from the alternator?
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Makes sense. However since the old battery,an ancient yuasa, was actually in the circuit, Is it possible that it was creating resistance in regard to current flow from the alternator?
Sure, if it's connected in series where the alternator must go through the battery to find the headlight like this:
alt -> battery -> headlight.
But I'm arguing that functionally it's a parallel arrangement where the alternator feeds both the battery and the headlight, and looks like this:
|->battery
alt -> |
|->headlight
So getting back to my statement "volts is volts", the source of the power doesn't matter. What matters is that there's enough. If the resting voltage (as much as is going to fit in the battery at rest) is 12.8 and the alternator pumps out 14, it's the alternator running the headlight. That was true for both the old, bad battery and the new one. So the new one didn't make the headlight brighter.
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http://www.starkpower.com the boat dealer I work at just started carrying this line. pretty impressive batteries. they have a circuit board in them to prevent parasitic drain when the ignition is off, the big trolling motor batteries that bass boats use save them 100lbs in the boats versus traditional AGM or wet batteries.
the little jump boxes are very nice, they can crank a v-8 engine with out a battery, or can jump them off about 8 times with out a charge. they come with accessory plugs so you can charge a completely dead cell phone in 10 min, run a computer all day. when you touch the red and black jumpers together they don't spark because it senses and won't conduct.
check out the site. there is a difference in Lith batteries.
I will be buying one when my current battery gives up.
I may have to try one of these.
Onboard cell balancer is a great thing.
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Makes sense. However since the old battery,an ancient yuasa, was actually in the circuit, Is it possible that it was creating resistance in regard to current flow from the alternator?
It is possible that a failing battery with a shorted cell was able to draw all the available alternator current and force the output to be below the regulator set point, like 12v instead of 14v. That would make the headlight dim, and also make the battery hot quickly, since the remaining five good cells would have been severely overcharged. Batteries don't go very long that way before they completely quit.
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Ease up, Kev. We have a context here -- comment said that changing the battery made his headlights brighter while riding. He didn't change his stereo, wires, relays, or connectors. He only changed the battery, which assuming he has a working charging system isn't going make the headlights any brighter when the alternator is supplying the current. The alternator is supplying the current whenever its voltage exceeds battery voltage, which should be at a fairly low rpm. In the course of changing it, he might have either deliberately or accidently improved the connection. That's all I was saying.
The point I was trying to make is that things aren't as black and white as we may think. Volts may be volts but there's more surrounding them and possibly affecting them. It's the involvement of other things that affect volts.
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That's why I think no battery systems are best (snapping my very old suspenders). Keep a couple of young-uns around to help push starting. ;D ;D ;D
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That's why I think no battery systems are best (snapping my very old suspenders). Keep a couple of young-uns around to help push starting. ;D ;D ;D
Bump starting is king. ;-T
I suspect the person made a mistake. The lights easily ARE brighter at rest because of the higher resting voltage and lower internal resistance. Once it is at a regulated alternator voltage, it should be the same. But the new 'brighter' may have made him think it was still brighter at high revs. Or he may have been comparing a fully charge LiFe to a nearly dead Pb, so the Pb just needed a few minutes to charge before the battery voltage get to a reasonable value. Hardly a fair comparison. Or maybe he simply tightened a loose connection when he changed the battery. We don't know, and will never know.
No lumens measured, it didn't happen IMHO.
If you are changing battery technology just to try to get brighter lighting, you are beyond help anyway. ;D
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Well I just went ahead and bought a lithium not necessarily based on every statement on here. What I find really interesting on the forum is that a few of you(long time poster) usually end up saying the same thing in different ways of saying it and in the end ya finally agree. I love getting all the answers. Now for those little jump starters. While my old acid battery was in my bike I used the jumper at least a dozen times in the last week and I still have 97% power left in it. I got mine for $54 on amazon(or was it ebay) not $150+- for ones small enough to fit in a shirt pocket so now I'll have to see if the accessory cords fit into the lithium so that I can get a rapid recharge while on the road. I carry mine in my bags and hope I don't have to use it in the future. Oh in regards to using the wrong charger , Shorai says that a regular charger can be used as long as it's less than 3 amps and new enough to have the auto shutoff feature.
I have as much fun getting all the variety of replies and sifting for actual information. I'll let ya know if my charging of batteries was something other than the battery or if my opinion changes on Lithium.
Fritz
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And let us know if your headlight is brighter. ;)
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The Yuasa battery on my Stelvio just died so I ordered a Shorai Li battery. SHORAI LFX21A6-BS12 Lithium-Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) puts out more amps that the other one recommended for the Stelvio. Because of the sideways orientation of the battery in the Stelvio I thought I would try a battery that won't leak. I did a lot of research, here is a good thread:
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?285641-Shorai-LFX21A6-BS12
As someone said above, it appears that there is a lot of misunderstanding about these batteries. In the cold it is recommended that you actually warm up the battery prior to cranking, e.g., keeping the headlights on for 30s before starting. Also for quick charges you can use a regular battery tender but it is not recommended that you keep the battery tender on to maintain a charge.
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Over the years I've seen so many of these Lithium threads come and go here and on other sites as well. A bit annoyed with myself that I'm again chasing another Li thread here but oh well, boredom does get the best of me sometimes ;) Let me reiterate, there are ALWAYS folks in these threads who SWEAR by them and then MANY others who have had issues with them. The pleathora of trouble I read and then my own careful use and ultimate failure even in consultation with battery rep and with Shorai charger and nobody on planet Earth can tell me it's all just user error or "misunderstanding" of the battery. I giggle at the folks - and there are always folks in these threads - who say it's just a simple mistake, or wrong charger, or someone not following lithium procedures, or blah, bleh, blub. It's almost insulting to read. I jolly say again, if ya got the time, money, and patience to try one out, go for it. If it works for ya, great, if not then join the ranks. :BEER:
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Despite the problems with the Ballistic in the Benelli, I installed the Shorai LFX18 in the V11 and with temps in the 50's overnight, the morning start was stronger than the LA Yuasa MF. No pre-warming needed. Could it be the prismatic vs. cylindrical cell construction? Winter will be the test.
The reasons for the change out were seat pan interference and orientation. I noticed some abrasion on the Yuasa case and some gap appearing at the top of the case joint. Not wanting an acid bath on the parts below was my first concern. Secondly, the MF design has a gassing chamber above the cells. This was ineffective at the angle of installation. Perhaps even exposing the plates with a loss of performance over time.
The Benelli does not have instant on headlights-only on when the engine is running so there was no load to pre-warm the battery. Much like aircraft, perhaps a system power up before engine start is the new normal.
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In the cold it is recommended that you actually warm up the battery prior to cranking, e.g., keeping the headlights on for 30s before starting.
On the Stelvio, how are you going to turn on the headlights before starting the motor?
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On the Stelvio, how are you going to turn on the headlights before starting the motor?
That's the same problem the Triumph guy had.. and the low cranking voltage did something weird to the timing. Crank crank kabang! Repeat for a really long time. I fully realize it is just one occurrence, but it got my attention.. ;D
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On the Stelvio, how are you going to turn on the headlights before starting the motor?
I have went through two winter seasons (Louisiana doesn't have cold, but...) and on the Breva the battery won't crank below 60. It won't crank as the dash shows the voltage below 12 volts when the air temp cooler,
there is no way to warm up the battery.
It takes hitting the starter button many, many times before the battery begins to wake up, the cooler it is the more jabs. It has taken over 50 jabs to crank some colder mornings.
I have now taken to attaching a 2 amp charger to the battery when I get ready to go, so the battery shows 12+ volts and it cranks easy. My impression it is not so much the battery doesn't have the power, as it is the computer won't let it crank until it sees a certain amount of voltage.
Now, I don't have issues the rest of day after it cranks, but I wouldn't count on it at 1 am in the morning when it is going to be cold.
I won't buy another Lithium battery for a bike that the computer controls the starting circuit.
I do like the light weight, small size, and no acid leaks, but if it won't crank, its a problem.
Old Head
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My impression it is not so much the battery doesn't have the power, as it is the computer won't let it crank until it sees a certain amount of voltage.
Just an FYI. It isn't the 'computer'. It is the wiring dropping too many volts to pull in the starter solenoid.
You should rewire the starter relay even with a lead acid battery so you don't get stranded.
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I will add my experience....
11 months after I bought my 2012 Stelvio my battery died in my driveway after a weekend trip. My battery looked like this...
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp19/demar39/139.jpg)
I replaced it with a Shorai and I haven't had any problems. I don't ride when it's cold so I can't comment but the bike has always started in temps down to 45F. Because of the comments about Li batteries I bought this and bring it with me on every trip....
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp19/demar39/Anti%20gravity.jpg)
I'm really glad I have it. It recharges laptops, phones, has a built in flashlight that flashes and strobes, etc. After six months of storage it still had 85% charge. Last night I started my daughters 2013 Escape that had a dead battery. As soon as I pluged in the Antigravity the Escape came alive...radio on, light on. It cranked over on the first try. I figure if it's so cold out that my bike won't start I can put the Antigravity in my pocket for 10 minutes to warm it up.
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My approach to the cold starting issue was to get a battery that was 2x greater in cranking power than the OEM LA unit. Pricey for sure but even when the temps are in the low twenties F it has only taken two hits to start the bike and often only one. If you are using a lithium unit that is just equal to the OEM in cranking power I can see how that could be an issue. I am not recommending the lithium type to anyone unless you are like me and had a very hard time trying to find a safe alternative for the leaking OEM Yuasa in the NTX a couple of years ago. Seems that now a few more AGM types are available that will fit in the NTX and not weep acid under the tank.
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The Yuasa battery on my Stelvio just died so I ordered a Shorai Li battery. SHORAI LFX21A6-BS12 Lithium-Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) puts out more amps that the other one recommended for the Stelvio. Because of the sideways orientation of the battery in the Stelvio I thought I would try a battery that won't leak. I did a lot of research, here is a good thread:
The Yuasa battery on my Stelvio just died ... (well, it didn't die but would lose a charge over about 3 weeks, a sure sign of "Help, I'm going, going ....).
The Yuasa was 6 years old, served me well, and never leaked.
So I bought another one just like it.
This is so no one can say "All I've heard about Yuasa batteries is bad!". MY Yuasa battery is GOOD!
Lannis
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The Yuasa battery on my Stelvio just died ... (well, it didn't die but would lose a charge over about 3 weeks, a sure sign of "Help, I'm going, going ....).
The Yuasa was 6 years old, served me well, and never leaked.
So I bought another one just like it.
This is so no one can say "All I've heard about Yuasa batteries is bad!". MY Yuasa battery is GOOD!
Lannis
It died didn't it? :P
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It died didn't it? :P
Yes ... after 6 YEARS!
That's like saying "Wonder what was wrong with Jim? He only lived to be 102 .... " :D
Lannis
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The Yuasa battery on my Stelvio just died ... (well, it didn't die but would lose a charge over about 3 weeks, a sure sign of "Help, I'm going, going ....).
The Yuasa was 6 years old, served me well, and never leaked.
So I bought another one just like it.
This is so no one can say "All I've heard about Yuasa batteries is bad!". MY Yuasa battery is GOOD!
Lannis
Just a joke about your last statement. ;)
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Just a joke about your last statement. ;)
Oh, yeah ... well, my NEW ONE is good now! ;-T
And my old one will probably power the electric fence around my garden for a while ....
Lannis
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Oh, yeah ... well, my NEW ONE is good now! ;-T
Lannis
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/e8da1646-fc58-4721-8111-8333e11aeca0_zpspnlcnosk.png)
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This thread is getting me really charged up :wife:
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This thread is getting me really charged up :wife:
watt? can't hear you.
;D
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It's full of positives and negatives for sure, not to mention resistance. :BEER:
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Are we properly/improperly grounding this joke?
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It's full of positives and negatives for sure, not to mention resistance. :BEER:
Don't worry, the thread won't be current for long. By the time we're telling electricity jokes, it's terminal.
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Don't worry, the thread won't be current for long. By the time we're telling electricity jokes, it's terminal.
And once it's drained and completely dead, never really recharges the same again.
Sorry. ;D
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Trickle trickle trickle...
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And let us know if your headlight is brighter. ;)
I don't have a clue if the headlight is brighter, just like a lot of other things. But I can tell you this, put it on a trickle charger a few weeks ago and went for short ride. Then I let it sits for a few weeks when the weather was chillier than I wanted to ride not to mention the snow. It sat thru the cold weather here in Minnsnowta and started right up this morning for a running a couple errands and I'm betting it might do so again tomorrow.
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The Odyssey 925 in my Loopframe will have it's 14th birthday this month. It holds a charge better then my 3 other ...much newer batteries also.