Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: mwrenn on August 26, 2015, 08:29:54 PM
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After quite a few miles this summer, and some fuel map magic from Todd at Guzzitech, I took the little goose over to Tulsa today for a Dyno run at K&N Cycles. Super people to deal with. Anyway, here is the result on the all gear run. Stock RWHP is 39, the bike today ran at 54.99 RWHP.
A 40% increase over stock. She is a blast to ride for sure. Next up is a GuzziTech 820cc kit....I want to see if I can break 60 HP.
Many thanks to Todd for his tireless work on the fueling and Ed Milich for the timing chain tensioner!
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/20150826_185654_002_zps5qeuxhst.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/20150826_185654_002_zps5qeuxhst.jpg.html)
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Sweet... There ya go. It can be done.
Mind if I ask cost so far?
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awesome!
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Very impressive Mike !
Dusty
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Sweet... There ya go. It can be done.
Mind if I ask cost so far?
I'm scared to add it up. There were so many blind alleys I went down getting to this point. If I did it again, on a later model bike, it would be substantially less.
The parts list isn't too bad, two heads, a complete set of valves, springs, retainers, seats and guides. Two custom pistons. Some gaskets, studs, rocker assemblies, pushrods, and valve covers. A Power Commander V with Auto Tune for the dual TB bikes, or mapping from Todd for the single TB bikes.
The problem is finding the parts like the heads etc...
My cost so far, starting with Imola II heads, and getting the ports digitized, Kibblewhite valves etc...I'm guessing around $6K
Just the digital mapping on the ports was $2K. Subsequent heads could be done for about $300 each though....
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Very impressive Mike !
Dusty
Thanks man! Looking forward to a possum feast at Canton!
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wow. that's a running little bike.
It has a stout exhaust sound too.
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Nice job indeed!
Which makes me wonder - if you can do it, why not the factory? Yes, I know, cost and reliability concerns, but hey.......
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Sweet... There ya go. It can be done.
Mind if I ask cost so far?
Of course it can be done. My next statement may shock some: The bike probably won't implode!!
Well done Mike! Keep looking forward.
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Nice job indeed!
Which makes me wonder - if you can do it, why not the factory? Yes, I know, cost and reliability concerns, but hey.......
Cost, reliability and the zero% chance of it ever passing emissions regs.
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impressive results ,
i havent had my lario on a dyno yet, but iwould be amazed if it made 40 hp....
now where can i find a v7 engine.....
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I'm scared to add it up. There were so many blind alleys I went down getting to this point. If I did it again, on a later model bike, it would be substantially less.
The parts list isn't too bad, two heads, a complete set of valves, springs, retainers, seats and guides. Two custom pistons. Some gaskets, studs, rocker assemblies, pushrods, and valve covers. A Power Commander V with Auto Tune for the dual TB bikes, or mapping from Todd for the single TB bikes.
The problem is finding the parts like the heads etc...
My cost so far, starting with Imola II heads, and getting the ports digitized, Kibblewhite valves etc...I'm guessing around $6K
Just the digital mapping on the ports was $2K. Subsequent heads could be done for about $300 each though....
:thumb: Thanks.... Obviously the work of passion.
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That's a really really nice piece of work you've done, Mike.. :thumb: :bow: Attaboy!
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Very impressive.
A lightweight and trim V7 that produces 54 ponies at the wheel would be much more competitive in the market than the current iteration of the machine.
Dyno runs can produce results that vary depending in the dyno and the operator but this gives us something tangible for consideration. A before and after test on the same dyno will reflect meaningful info on the improvement of a bike. Thanks for posting.
I'd love to know what that airplane engine is producing and see the torque curve.
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Excellent work! Salute!
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/golden%20egg%201_zpsd0jhwbfa.jpg)
:thumb:
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I still say KD and Chuckie need to bring their tiddlers to Cedar Vale next year and face off with the
Oklahoma Hot Rod . Find out for sure which one of these things is really a bad boy :evil: :grin:
Dusty
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I still say KD and Chuckie need to bring their tiddlers to Cedar Vale next year and face off with the
Oklahoma Hot Rod . Find out for sure which one of these things is really a bad boy :evil: :grin:
Dusty
Oh, I'd say the OHR would blow us both in the weeds. :smiley: KD's dynoed at what, low to mid 40's? No contest. We'll find out what the Aero engine is Saturday. The local Hondayamazuki dealer has a dynojet. I'd talked to the kid that runs it last week, and he agreed to do a run at 4500 or so to check cruising mixture, and a run like Mike's for hp and mixture again. Said he'd charge me a half hour. That's more like it.. :smiley: (Guzzi content) The Local hawg shop said 2 hours minimum. Shirley, he jests. :rolleyes:
At any rate, I should get a handle on jetting. Don't want to be too lean..
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I like my Shirlies lean :laugh:
Dusty
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Yep... mine ran about 45 hp on a messed up dyno. I'm not certain it was fueling as it should as it wasn't nearly right when I got it. I'm hard pressed to believe the numbers are too static under the circumstances, so to really know...
I'm still dialing it in, but the last jetting really woke it up. These little guys are quite sensitive to jetting .
There's no way it's nearly what these numbers are Mike is pulling. I guess the question begs, are 100cc heads (750 vs. 650) with lower compression than mine and same heads (though I likely have larger valves (?) and a more aggressive cam) equate to 10 hp more than my 650? Of course he has fuel injection vs. carbs. I'm just curious about the other differences and what they might be that leads to such greater numbers??
It's awesome what he's pulling! :thumb:
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Oh, I'd say the OHR would blow us both in the weeds. :smiley: KD's dynoed at what, low to mid 40's? No contest. We'll find out what the Aero engine is Saturday. The local Hondayamazuki dealer has a dynojet. I'd talked to the kid that runs it last week, and he agreed to do a run at 4500 or so to check cruising mixture, and a run like Mike's for hp and mixture again. Said he'd charge me a half hour. That's more like it.. :smiley: (Guzzi content) The Local hawg shop said 2 hours minimum. Shirley, he jests. :rolleyes:
At any rate, I should get a handle on jetting. Don't want to be too lean..
That will be cool to see what she is putting out Chuck. Looking forward to the results. I will be especially interested in your torque numbers!
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Boys , all it is is numbers on a piece of paper until we line 'em up :evil:
Dusty
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Yep... mine ran about 45 hp on a messed up dyno. I'm not certain it was fueling as it should as it wasn't nearly right when I got it. I'm hard pressed to believe the numbers are too static under the circumstances, so to really know...
I'm still dialing it in, but the last jetting really woke it up. These little guys are quite sensitive to jetting .
There's no way it's nearly what these numbers are Mike is pulling. I guess the question begs, are 100cc heads (750 vs. 650) with lower compression than mine and same heads (though I likely have larger valves (?) and a more aggressive cam) equate to 10 hp more than my 650? Of course he has fuel injection vs. carbs. I'm just curious about the other differences and what they might be that leads to such greater numbers??
It's awesome what he's pulling! :thumb:
Hey Kev, what compression ratio are you running in your Super Lario? i calculated mine at 9.7:1.
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Boys , all it is is numbers on a piece of paper until we line 'em up :evil:
Dusty
+1 !!! :evil: :evil: :evil:
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+1 !!! :evil: :evil: :evil:
Mike , I do believe the other boys are afraid of the Oklahoma Hot Rod :evil:
Dusty
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Hey Kev, what compression ratio are you running in your Super Lario? i calculated mine at 9.7:1.
Ed says about 11:1 now.
Quote:
I just bumped compression up to ~11:1 and heads flow better now.
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Mike , I do believe the other boys are afraid of the Oklahoma Hot Rod :evil:
Dusty
LOL! I ain't skeered!
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Ed says about 11:1 now.
Quote:
I just bumped compression up to ~11:1 and heads flow better now.
That's good to know, I have some room left on mine. Stock Lario heads are 22 cc's, the Imola II heads I used were 20 cc's. That was after Millenium did their machining. I could get some thinner head gaskets from Cometic, every .010" less gasket gives me .272:1 compression ratio increase. When I install the 820cc kit, I think my CR will go down a little....
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LOL! I ain't skeered!
Me, neither.. :whip2: :smiley: Dogwalker sez he thinks the CR on the Aero engine is 94, which is probably right. That's about the highest you can run on an airplane with 100 octane fuel. I didn't bother to cc the heads to find out. Figured what's the point? :smiley: It is what it is.
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skeered? Hell no! :violent1:
Mine's lightest and may stop fastest. Does that account for something? :wink: I like the 60mph roll on idea. :cool:
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Alrighty then , now the smack talk is flying . Cedar Vale next April boys ? Nice long stretch of straight road , we know the local LEO , let's settle this :laugh:
Dusty
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700 miles of interstate for me, but I'll consider it. Even more for KD, but he don't get out much.. :evil: :whip2:
:smiley:
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700 miles of interstate for me, but I'll consider it. Even more for KD, but he don't get out much.. :evil: :whip2:
:smiley:
We will get 'Truck to haul the two of you down . Matt can also bring the Centauro to keep you boys honest :evil: :grin:
Dusty
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700 miles of interstate for me, but I'll consider it. Even more for KD, but he don't get out much.. :evil: :whip2:
:smiley:
Anybody else around here got a life? :laugh: I'm trying to keep up with a young lady and balance life. I need a fast bike for fast times. :thumb:
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32 posts and still no photos? Are they in another thread that I missed?
The main reason I'd like to see it is that there is such a distinct improvement from the first pimple-headed SB v-7s to the newest that a 4 valve must be better still.
Todd.
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Mine's lightest and may stop fastest. Does that account for something? :wink: I like the 60mph roll on idea. :cool:
Yeah, but who is the FATTEST... that might account for the most! :boozing:
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Yeah, but who is the FATTEST... that might account for the most! :boozing:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Well , Mike and Chuckie are in the 160 lb range , so... :evil: :grin: Just Kidding KD :laugh:
Dusty
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After seeing and hearing both bikes in person, I think it would be a real contest. In fact, they sound very much alike.
Both bikes have a healthy bark to them and have little bit of an intimidation factor when pulling up to the curb.
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:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Well , Mike and Chuckie are in the 160 lb range , so... :evil: :grin: Just Kidding KD :laugh:
Dusty
I haven't seen 160 since I was a kid.. more like 185 with gear on.. Just came back from a putt on the Mouse that roared. :smiley: FORZA Mousepower!! :bike-037: :boozing:
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I haven't seen 160 since I was a kid.. more like 185 with gear on.. Just came back from a putt on the Mouse that roared. :smiley: FORZA Mousepower!! :bike-037: :boozing:
The key word here being "range" :grin:
Dusty
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I was 180 by 13.... granted, I started working out and I was 150 by 14... but I haven't seen either of those weights since high school or college.
Guess I better stay out of this race (unless I bring the Duc). :laugh:
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Yeah, but who is the FATTEST... that might account for the most! :boozing:
6'/165lbs. Tennis pro.
Good fighting weight :boxing:
My battery weighs less than my package. :evil: :thumb:
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Somebody asked for pics.
My stock Lario to the right/Super to the left. Lean and mean.
(http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac249/kevin3019/Lario/B1F6CFEB-BA5F-4123-9472-D67437EE81E5.jpg)
(http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac249/kevin3019/Lario/2015-08/74D2018D-F807-4737-83FD-3BF9DDE6240E.jpg)
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Does she wheelie off the throttle?
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Somebody asked for pics.
My stock Lario to the right/Super to the left. Lean and mean.
(http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac249/kevin3019/Lario/B1F6CFEB-BA5F-4123-9472-D67437EE81E5.jpg)
Thanks. From this distance (or any?) not really a lot of difference visually is there?
Those sure are prettier engine lumps than either of the two-valves and especially the earlier ones.
Todd.
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Thanks. From this distance (or any?) not really a lot of difference visually is there?
Those sure are prettier engine lumps than either of the two-valves and especially the earlier ones.
Todd.
Same power plant, just internal differences. This always had 4-valve heads. Externally most everything is different except the tank, bars, frame and wheels.
No wheelies attempted!
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Somebody asked for pics.
My stock Lario to the right/Super to the left. Lean and mean.
(http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac249/kevin3019/Lario/B1F6CFEB-BA5F-4123-9472-D67437EE81E5.jpg)
I'm not really a fan of the stock Lario bodywork, so understand how much I mean this when I say the Super looks FANTASTIC.
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As the old So.Cal speed shop read "Speed Costs How Fast Do You Want To Go"
Good Luck
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32 posts and still no photos? Are they in another thread that I missed?
The main reason I'd like to see it is that there is such a distinct improvement from the first pimple-headed SB v-7s to the newest that a 4 valve must be better still.
Todd.
Here are a couple of the OHR...LOL
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/DCB6EC91-EA23-402C-85D3-2ED15AE6774E_zpse6wuazc5.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/DCB6EC91-EA23-402C-85D3-2ED15AE6774E_zpse6wuazc5.jpg.html)
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/9661E457-18AA-4E6D-9D96-800250D6C03B_zpsunu4g1jx.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/9661E457-18AA-4E6D-9D96-800250D6C03B_zpsunu4g1jx.jpg.html)
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I'm not really a fan of the stock Lario bodywork, so understand how much I mean this when I say the Super looks FANTASTIC.
+1 !! That Lario looks the business...
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Does she wheelie off the throttle?
Yep, it takes a little bit of a slow roll on to keep the front end down, kind of have to plan for it if your drag racing...cant roll it on all at once....
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Here are a couple of the OHR...LOL
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/DCB6EC91-EA23-402C-85D3-2ED15AE6774E_zpse6wuazc5.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/DCB6EC91-EA23-402C-85D3-2ED15AE6774E_zpse6wuazc5.jpg.html)
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/9661E457-18AA-4E6D-9D96-800250D6C03B_zpsunu4g1jx.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/9661E457-18AA-4E6D-9D96-800250D6C03B_zpsunu4g1jx.jpg.html)
The Oklahoma Hot Rod is even better looking in person :bike-037:
Dusty
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Here are a couple of the OHR...LOL
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/DCB6EC91-EA23-402C-85D3-2ED15AE6774E_zpse6wuazc5.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/DCB6EC91-EA23-402C-85D3-2ED15AE6774E_zpse6wuazc5.jpg.html)
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/9661E457-18AA-4E6D-9D96-800250D6C03B_zpsunu4g1jx.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/9661E457-18AA-4E6D-9D96-800250D6C03B_zpsunu4g1jx.jpg.html)
WOW man... that is VERY cool looking now. Best look you've had on it by far and looks the business. That's a keeper just like that. Brings focus to those heads very nicely as well. :thumb:
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Alrighty then , now the smack talk is flying . Cedar Vale next April boys ? Nice long stretch of straight road , we know the local LEO , let's settle this :laugh:
Dusty
:popcorn:
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Looks bitchin, Mike..but I *like* the
datedclassic 80s sport bike look of the Lario. :smiley: We'll see what she does on the dyno today, but I don't expect your kind of numbers..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/Lario/1-001_zpsgxvustxk.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/Lario/1-001_zpsgxvustxk.jpg.html)
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:popcorn: :boozing:
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:popcorn:
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:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Hey , doing my best to stir up some trouble here . We can call it
The Match Race of the Century
Sell tickets , have concessions , dancing girls . Yep , if 30,000 folks showed up to watch Evel sink into the Snake River , well , we should get at least 20 attendees for this monumental showdown .
T shirts and mugs will be available :laugh:
Dusty
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:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Hey , doing my best to stir up some trouble here . We can call it
The Match Race of the Century
Sell tickets , have concessions , dancing girls . Yep , if 30,000 folks showed up to watch Evel sink into the Snake River , well , we should get at least 20 attendees for this monumental showdown .
T shirts and mugs will be available :laugh:
Dusty
Are you sure you want a 650 to compete in a 750 class?? :shocked: They've got 15% over me from the start. I'll still cook their goose <smack> :food:
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Are you sure you want a 650 to compete in a 750 class?? :shocked: They've got 15% over me from the start. I'll still cook their goose <smack> :food:
So we give you a head start :laugh: Mike says he will still smoke ya :evil: :grin: So far Chuckie is being quiet , he may think the Aerolario is in a different league altogether .
Dusty
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So we give you a head start :laugh: Mike says he will still smoke ya :evil: :grin: So far Chuckie is being quiet , he may think the Aerolario is in a different league altogether .
Dusty
Nope, notice..
Looks bitchin, Mike..but I *like* the datedclassic 80s sport bike look of the Lario. :smiley: We'll see what she does on the dyno today, but I don't expect your kind of numbers..
My ass dyno said more powerful than a stock Lario, and it was right. Still figuring out (maybe) how to post a video. It was kool as sh!t.. :smiley:
I can't say enough about the kids :rolleyes: at Acceleration powersports in Anderson. Did exactly what I wanted, and very professional. I'll get some pix of the charts, but basically what I wanted to know was mixture at 4500, and WFO. Really didn't want to be lean. John said, "That's as well jetted as you will get with twin carbs.." He checked mixture independently, said it's not unusual for them to be different even though they are jetted the same. That was the case on this one. The left cylinder is perfect, the right starts getting a little rich around 4500. He said he'd raise the clip one notch on that one and call it good. :thumb:
Horsepower? KD and I are just pretenders. :evil: 46.6. There is more available of course, this has a mild cam and low compression. I don't care. :wink: It makes good usable power, and should be as reliable as a bucket of hammers..
:bow: to the OHR.. :smiley:
Edit: Photobucket sez this short video is loaded. It's one of the full power runs. Let's see if this works.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/th_20150829_112744_zpsfnngo2io.mp4) (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/20150829_112744_zpsfnngo2io.mp4)
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That sounds REALLY great!
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That sounds REALLY great!
Thanks! It *does* sound bitchin.. I like everything about it, the idle, on throttle, and overrun makes a little wee come out. (Roper content) :smiley: :boozing:
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That sounds great Chuck,bet that grin inside your helmet on twistie roads is a mile wide! :bow: :thumb:
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Ok, here's mixture at 4500 on the left cylinder
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/4-060_zpsdmeowzyk.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/4-060_zpsdmeowzyk.jpg.html)
Rats.. Photobucket is screwing up again.. it will only show one of 4 printouts for what ever reason. :rolleyes:
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That sounds great Chuck,bet that grin inside your helmet on twistie roads is a mile wide! :bow: :thumb:
There's no twisty roads around here, but I'm having more fun with this engine than a guy ought to be allowed. :smiley:
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Interesting Chuck. Still trying to bring up that video for viewing; won't load up for me. Anyhow, yep, we're pretty close in numbers and you see how differently your ass dyno feels it. What is the torque you're pulling? Interesting to compare that. Amazing you were close to perfect on the jetting out of the gate.
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Interesting Chuck. Still trying to bring up that video for viewing; won't load up for me. Anyhow, yep, we're pretty close in numbers and you see how differently your ass dyno feels it. What is the torque you're pulling? Interesting to compare that. Amazing you were close to perfect on the jetting out of the gate.
No torque reading. It has some. :smiley: I was looking for mixture.
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My take overall is that converting stock V7 heads to 4-valve is a good bang <I'm assuming> for the buck. 39 to 55 is huge gains. If he gets it to 60 with another tweak or two that's incredible. I'll tell you what, with the difference in how big my engine feels, I can't imagine 55-60 ponies. Guzzi should wake up and take notes here. These are pushrods we're talking. Imagine some kind of high cam design like on the BB.
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My take overall is that converting stock V7 heads to 4-valve is a good bang <I'm assuming> for the buck. 39 to 55 is huge gains. If he gets it to 60 with another tweak or two that's incredible. I'll tell you what, with the difference in how big my engine feels, I can't imagine 55-60 ponies. Guzzi should wake up and take notes here. These are pushrods we're talking. Imagine some kind of high cam design like on the BB.
Well, we just received (via a journalist review of the latest Racer when he visited Lake Como to ride it at Guzzi's behest) the verification that there is a test mule V7 in the 65 hp range running around Italy... so MAYBE that's just what the factory has already done.
we were gossiping to Guzzi staff and one mentioned that the factory does have a rather special V7 currently wandering around northern Italy. This engine knocks out 65 hp, with even more torque
In case you missed the thread:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=78584.msg1234436#msg1234436
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Dogwalker mentioned in passing that soon I may not be the only one in the world with a hemi small block.. :smiley:
I personally think it would be a GREAT move for Guzzi. :thumb: Probably won't happen.. :rolleyes:
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Dogwalker mentioned in passing that soon I may not be the only one in the world with a hemi small block.. :smiley:
I personally think it would be a GREAT move for Guzzi. :thumb: Probably won't happen.. :rolleyes:
Actually this journalist, Dogwalker, and EDIT LEAFMAN60 Lowryter (when he visited the factory last year) have all professed to how reps at the factory have said they are aware of the V7 power levels and are working on it (and maybe Galluzi or the Piaggio guys that were showing off the Bagger and the Eldo mentioned it to one of the members herer as well).
So I'm thinking it seems more likely than not something is in the works and coming...
MAYBE THAT is the "new mid-sized" motor they're talking about - i.e. an 850 4V or something like that.
Makes more sense than an "ALL NEW" mid-sized motor.
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We can only hope. I remember the Ippo..that would have been a killer bike.
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More than likely it will be based off the BB platform. I hope I'm wrong. What I'm liking most about my Super Lario is the weight. It's very light and I personally wouldn't trade that for HP.
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More than likely it will be based off the BB platform.
I don't know why you are saying that.
Dogwalker, EDIT LEAFMAN60 Lowryter, AND AUTHOR OF THIS ARTCILE seem to each have clearly stated they have been told about a specific variant of the V7 line with more hp in the pipeline.
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I don't know why you are saying that.
Dogwalker, Lowryter, AND AUTHOR OF THIS ARTCILE seem to each have clearly stated they have been told about a specific variant of the V7 line with more hp in the pipeline.
Yep. The line forms behind me. Unless it's a cruiser :evil: of course..
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They wouldn't of bothered designing and re-tooling the gearbox for a model they were only expecting to sell for a couple of years.
If you look at product development Guzzi style going back to the advent of the very earliest V-twins, (and probably beyond if you need to go to ancient history.) you will see very, very few 'Clean Sheet' designs. What tends to happen is that to a greater or lesser degree one or several of the major components will be changed and a product line developed that will continue much longer than other manufacturers will persist with a design. Why? Because Guzzi, even when part of a larger manufacturing organisation, is too small to endlessly spit out brand new designs and tool up for them and then only produce for a few years. Whenever that pattern has been broken the result has usually been very risky if not catastrophic for the company but let's look at the evolution. First of the Big Blocks.
V7-700cc loop frame four speed, then taken out to 750cc for the Ambo. From there it gained another 100cc and an extra gear. After this the next major change was to the frame and suspension with the adoption of the Tonti frame. That had minor changes to both engine and driveline but remained essentially the same for decades but the next major change was the Early Hi-Cam and swap to the Spine Frame. This was an utter disaster and nearly did for the company once and for all, the engine sucked every lire the company had and was, unfortunately, still a disappointment, it also over-taxed other components and introduced reliability problems with both driveline and ancillaries. Unfortunately the Hi-Cam was abandoned and the engineers further refined the old 2V donk but the next major components to get a freshen up were the gearbox and bevelbox which were greatly and significantly improved for the V11 Spineframe series. That package, coupled with the venerable but now horribly dated Tonti series enabled the BB to soldier on until finally the company got *Some* money and was able to design and build the early CARC bikes. While these were being sold, finally, the Hi-Cam was re-visited and all that was good about it was incorporated in the Nuovo Hi Cam while the bad was dumped. The new engine being lighter, more powerful and easier to both build and work on than its predecessor. That essential motive package has been the backbone of BB production for almost a decade and despite the problems with the flat tappet design has proven overall to be a popular and satisfactory design.
Small blocks have had a similar although less varied development history, the main changes apart from bore and stroke being the change to the ill fated 4V heads of the Lario, Imola/Targa series. With the outstanding success of the design after its adoption of 'Retro' styling though it is obvious that if the cash cow is to continue to be milked then it will need to have its perceived issues addressed. First among these is its 'Lack of Power' which is all very well but the fact remained that any increase in power would still be being pushed through the same crappy old gearbox designed to be cheaply built for a poverty pack machine in the mid 1970's. The design had already been asked to take a 50% hike in cubic capacity with the associated torque. There is a limit to what you can do to keep things reliable. Realising this and knowing the popularity of the platform it was imperative that before any major re-design or upgrade to the powerplant the gearbox and quite probably the clutch and bevelbox were going to need a re-design and what happened last year? We got the V7-II whose major, if generally unappreciated, change was the Nuovo Six Speed for the smallblock. Yes, lots of folks are saying "I don't need an extra gear." Well, maybe not now, but if the next evolutionary step is going to be a higher reving, shorter stroke, 4VPC motor adopting more of Piagio's modern technology, (I can hear the corn cob pipe stems splintering from here! :grin:) like Tri-map, ABS, TC in its more sophisticated RBW form all controlled by either the 5 or 7SM or a new controller altogether then you will appreciate another ratio, and anyway, the market expects it!
If and when this new engine does make an appearance I'm hoping that as well as it being installed in a 'Classic' styled bike for Hipster/Dinosaur consumption it will also be, eventually, coupled with a modern frame and suspension. Maybe even, like the Big Block motive package, being included in a range of packages from 'Sporty Lightweight' through to 'Mini Stelvio'. Now THAT would be cookin'
We'll see.
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:thumb: That was really good, Pete. I hope it comes to fruition.
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Oh so do I! A Nuovo Small Block, little, light, 75/80 HP, proper forks, reactive rear drive and decent rising rate suspension at the back, short wheelbase with the weight carried low? I'd be all over it like a rash!
Needless to say someone would want to stick a Windjammer on one and there will be a host of complaints about how the alternator doesn't put out as much power as Chernobyl just before the meltdown but you really can't help some people. No doubt there will also be complaints that it won't have knobbly tires or a beard and goggle rack but I'm sure the aftermarket will rise to the challenge..... :wink:
Pete
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Thanks! It *does* sound bitchin.. I like everything about it, the idle, on throttle, and overrun makes a little wee come out. (Roper content) :smiley: :boozing:
She really sounds good Chuck!! Man, I think I did pee my pants a little....
Good job on the jetting, she's dialed in good, she's making some good power too!
I'll post up a video of mine on the dyno...fun stuff!
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Oh so do I! A Nuovo Small Block, little, light, 75/80 HP, proper forks, reactive rear drive and decent rising rate suspension at the back, short wheelbase with the weight carried low? I'd be all over it like a rash!
Needless to say someone would want to stick a Windjammer on one and there will be a host of complaints about how the alternator doesn't put out as much power as Chernobyl just before the meltdown but you really can't help some people. No doubt there will also be complaints that it won't have knobbly tires or a beard and goggle rack but I'm sure the aftermarket will rise to the challenge..... :wink:
Pete
+1!! A nice light bike like that, I'd buy one...
It would have to have a coffe cup holder though...LOL
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So here's a cell phone vid...not the best, but you get the idea.
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/th_20150829_220439_897374140969435_zpscusxmyra.mp4) (http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/20150829_220439_897374140969435_zpscusxmyra.mp4)
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+1!! A nice light bike like that, I'd buy one...
It would have to have a coffe cup holder though...LOL
Beard and goggle rack could double as cup holder, but only steam-punk type cup covered with brass fittings and barnacles! :evil:
Pete
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Dogwalker, Lowryter, AND AUTHOR OF THIS ARTCILE seem to each have clearly stated they have been told about a specific variant of the V7 line with more hp in the pipeline.
I've also heard rumblings from various sources but whether it will be based on BB or SB I have NFI! The fact remains that common sense dictates that they produce something more 'Competitive' to stick on the front of the Nuovo SB gearbox. With the impending demise of the Griso in its current form it would seem to be sensible to produce something to at least attempt to fill that niche. Maybe something even 'Sportier'?
The only thing currently missing from the rumours is actual evidence. Long before the 8V 1200's and the Cali 14 were available pics were surfacing of bikes under development. Unless the average punter and oportunistic photo-journos are too gormless to pick a new motor we have, as yet, no evidence that such a beast exists. They will be road testing it around Mandello with a P plate on it.
Pete
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Well, the 1400 was easy to spot. But I don't recall Guzzi being a prime target for the motorcycle paparazzi. And perhaps if it really is just a motor upgrade to the existing platform it may not be all that easy to spot.
<shrugs and remains optimistic>
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She really sounds good Chuck!! Man, I think I did pee my pants a little....
Good job on the jetting, she's dialed in good, she's making some good power too!
I'll post up a video of mine on the dyno...fun stuff!
Can't see your video (or mine). Must be because I have flash disabled. Yeah, it *was* fun stuff to do. I must have looked harmless enough because the dyno operator bent the rules and let me be in the dyno room. :smiley: Both guys really seemed to like the Lario, and the story behind it.
I wouldn't have done it except I was wondering whether I should go to the 268 AB instead of the AR atomizer to fatten up the mid range, and was wondering about whether the 130 mains might be a little small. Apparently no changes necessary. :thumb: Got my $37.50 worth. :smiley: (Guzzi content) Max hp was never on the radar when I built this, I was looking for reliability in my touring bike after the problems with the 4 valve. When it turned out that it is every bit as much fun as the stock engine..and more powerful.. it was just icing on the cake. :smiley:
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Chuck, one thing Mark and I have found is that quite often Dyno operators try and dictate what *You* need. Thing is, while we may be deficient in knwoledge of how to get what we want in terms of info its US Who are paying the piper and therefore we will call the bloody tune!
We ain't that smart, but we are Guzzi owners, (Cue suspenders snap!) so we like to get our stretched penny worth!
Dyno is a great tool but real world data logging seems to produce a better 'Road' motor in my experience. (Cue cries of 'Heresy' from those with no idea and a vested interest!)
Pete
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Well, <snapping suspenders myself> go ahead and hook that data logger up to my DelOrtos and Dyna.. :smiley: I'll give it a try.
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if the next evolutionary step is going to be a higher reving, shorter stroke, 4VPC motor adopting more of Piagio's modern technolog
I am not looking for a high reving short stroke that narrows the powerband.
It's the only bike out there with a Heron head, which gives good torque down low and I like it.
Of course the market place (or more usually, the magazines) demand something different for their perceived "needs."
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I am not looking for a high reving short stroke that narrows the powerband.
It's the only bike out there with a Heron head, which gives good torque down low and I like it.
Of course the market place (or more usually, the magazines) demand something different for their perceived "needs."
It won't narrow the band but rather expand the band (upward). If you think they will significantly increase hp and keep torque where it currently is then you're mistaken. Everything will rise together and that pull you feel off the BB will come more into play on the SB (relatively speaking). 4-valve heads will keep it fueling in the upper rpm's better than 2-valve heads and it won't start giving up as quickly as the current Sb tends.
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I've also heard rumblings from various sources but whether it will be based on BB or SB I have NFI! The fact remains that common sense dictates that they produce something more 'Competitive' to stick on the front of the Nuovo SB gearbox. With the impending demise of the Griso in its current form it would seem to be sensible to produce something to at least attempt to fill that niche. Maybe something even 'Sportier'?
The only thing currently missing from the rumours is actual evidence. Long before the 8V 1200's and the Cali 14 were available pics were surfacing of bikes under development. Unless the average punter and oportunistic photo-journos are too gormless to pick a new motor we have, as yet, no evidence that such a beast exists. They will be road testing it around Mandello with a P plate on it.
Pete
Right on! I'm not getting my hopes up about anything yet. No leaks and talk is cheap. A true "small block" is all that interests me, and a big block is just that... whether it has a shorter stroke or not; it still adds weight.
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Another thought to throw in here: variable valve timing can spread the torque curve. Ducati is doing that now and it seems to be a practical advancement. Heck, cars have been using VVT for while now so it's not exactly bleeding edge technology. If we go to a shorter stroke high cam 4V engine with VVT I think we'd see a nice compact, but powerful, engine that still has Guzzi character. This would be particularly nice on the SB.
On a related note, yesterday I was looking at a new Ducati head and noticed that it incorporates automatic compression relief for starting. It's a really slick system that opens one exhaust valve just a bit for that first revolution of the crankshaft. As soon as the engine fires the valve goes into normal mode. Once I installed high compression pistons in my Multistrada it was obvious that the starter was not having fun, wish I had had compression release then!
Peter Y.
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So. How many of us will buy one just to hide it in a barn with zero miles on it, for 30years for some reason? (http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/hide_zpspfj3j4p5.gif)
Are the people that do that, (and somebody will shirley), are they smart investors, eccentric collectors or people with "issues"? :huh:
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high cam 4V engine with VVT
I know we are talking about different engineers, now.. but.. lets face it. Every 4 valve engine they have built has had issues, not to mention variable valve timing. :huh: :popcorn:
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It won't narrow the band but rather expand the band (upward). If you think they will significantly increase hp and keep torque where it currently is then you're mistaken. Everything will rise together and that pull you feel off the BB will come more into play on the SB (relatively speaking). 4-valve heads will keep it fueling in the upper rpm's better than 2-valve heads and it won't start giving up as quickly as the current Sb tends.
Interesting point. Here is an overlay of the weakest run I did, compared to a stock 2013 V7. The torque was significantly higher through the whole rpm range. In fact, the max torque on the OHR comes up at 4580 rpm, a little sooner than the 2v, at 5100 rpm. This is with the exact same displacement and the exact same cam profile. You can also see how the horsepower keeps ramping up, all the way to the rev limiter. Kind of cool to see exactly what more airflow is doing as compared to the two valve engine. I like the heron head design too, its very simple and reliable. That being said, if I bought a new V7, the first thing I would do is convert it to a four valve.....It makes that much difference.
With the numbers Chuck is pulling, I also think it would be a blast to put the drone heads on an EFI engine. See how that compares to the 4 valve heads.... :evil: :evil: :evil: Then you could do data logging too!! lol.
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/StockBoreV74V-vs-StockV7-Dyno_zpscuetmas8.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/StockBoreV74V-vs-StockV7-Dyno_zpscuetmas8.jpg.html)
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There is a perfect example to show why many Larios blew up. :smiley: Ace Mallot, who used to be a dealer and dealt with the problem back in the day told me that he was petty sure many failures were from simple over revving. It's still making more power at the red line, and would continue past. I know for a fact that it is super easy to over rev the 4 valve.
With the numbers Chuck is pulling, I also think it would be a blast to put the drone heads on an EFI engine. See how that compares to the 4 valve heads.... :evil: :evil: :evil: Then you could do data logging too!! lol.
Well, of course the Aero engine was injected. Supposedly, it made 63 hp. The prop reduction unit would induce power loss, too, as compared to the rear drive on the motorcycle, so that might be an attainable number. If Guzzi is truly working on a hemi small block.. :thumb:.. maybe we'll find out.
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There is a perfect example to show why many Larios blew up. :smiley: Ace Mallot, who used to be a dealer and dealt with the problem back in the day told me that he was petty sure many failures were from simple over revving. It's still making more power at the red line, and would continue past. I know for a fact that it is super easy to over rev the 4 valve.
Well, of course the Aero engine was injected. Supposedly, it made 63 hp. The prop reduction unit would induce power loss, too, as compared to the rear drive on the motorcycle, so that might be an attainable number. If Guzzi is truly working on a hemi small block.. :thumb:.. maybe we'll find out.
Yes, I can see how it would be easy to over rev, the 4v just keeps pulling. Good thing there is a rev limiter at 7500....lol
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Interesting point. Here is an overlay of the weakest run I did, compared to a stock 2013 V7. The torque was significantly higher through the whole rpm range. In fact, the max torque on the OHR comes up at 4580 rpm, a little sooner than the 2v, at 5100 rpm. This is with the exact same displacement and the exact same cam profile. You can also see how the horsepower keeps ramping up, all the way to the rev limiter. Kind of cool to see exactly what more airflow is doing as compared to the two valve engine. I like the heron head design too, its very simple and reliable. That being said, if I bought a new V7, the first thing I would do is convert it to a four valve.....It makes that much difference.
With the numbers Chuck is pulling, I also think it would be a blast to put the drone heads on an EFI engine. See how that compares to the 4 valve heads.... :evil: :evil: :evil: Then you could do data logging too!! lol.
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/StockBoreV74V-vs-StockV7-Dyno_zpscuetmas8.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/StockBoreV74V-vs-StockV7-Dyno_zpscuetmas8.jpg.html)
That's spectacular Mike! She runs straight up. To me, that's plenty of hp/torque for that bike. If current V7 owners rode that, they would be blown away. Mine is only a 15-20% increase from stock and I'm still surprised how "big" it feels. Yours is leagues ahead so I can only imagine. I wish I could see these vids you guys posted.
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You probably need to have flash enabled. I'll look on my tablet and see if I can see em..
I have a long one with setup, idle, baseline runs full power, but I would need to edit it and I've never fooled with trying to edit a video..
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It should work in my iPhone I'd think. I disabled flash on my puter.
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Mwrenn, I have respect for all you've done to enhance the SB.
I, myself have added a big bore kit and aftermarket programable ECU, amongst other $$.
Still, I'm not a red-line rider. It's torque down low that makes for a nice riding cycle, and the Heron gives all that.
It's the magazine "reviews" that cry for performance over 9k rpm.
If I wanted the latest whiz-bang technology I'd get a BMW. And you know what, after that there's no rider-servicing. Everything is done by the dealer.
No thank you.
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Mwrenn, I have respect for all you've done to enhance the SB.
I, myself have added a big bore kit and aftermarket programable ECU, amongst other $$.
Still, I'm not a red-line rider. It's torque down low that makes for a nice riding cycle, and the Heron gives all that.
It's the magazine "reviews" that cry for performance over 9k rpm.
If I wanted the latest whiz-bang technology I'd get a BMW. And you know what, after that there's no rider-servicing. Everything is done by the dealer.
No thank you.
I hear you Joe. That low end grunt is what I really liked about my V7classic when I first test rode it. I wound up buying the bike based on that. Thanks for all of your input so far, I do enjoy perusing the yahoo small block group, lots of good info in there! And pictures!
I bet your big bore kit added even more torque, fun stuff!
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I have found with the Super Lario now that the low end feels pretty big, especially with this last jetting. It's worlds different than my stock Lario and I'm not finding myself revving it to get that pull and rush I so desired on the stock. The "go power" feels equal from low to high so I can sit at below 4k rpm and throttle back and enjoy that pull. I can not get that on my other bike until it opened up somewhere between 45000-5000 rpm. Behaviorally it's much more like a 2 valve until you realize it won't quit on you all the way up. The best of both worlds I suppose. I would think Mike's is much the same (but WAY exaggerated) by what his dyno results are showing.
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I have found with the Super Lario now that the low end feels pretty big, especially with this last jetting. It's worlds different than my stock Lario and I'm not finding myself revving it to get that pull and rush I so desired on the stock. The "go power" feels equal from low to high so I can sit at below 4k rpm and throttle back and enjoy that pull. I can not get that on my other bike until it opened up somewhere between 45000-5000 rpm. Behaviorally it's much more like a 2 valve until you realize it won't quit on you all the way up. The best of both worlds I suppose. I would think Mike's is much the same (but WAY exaggerated) by what his dyno results are showing.
It is a world of difference, that's for sure. I find it hard to put into words, but I think you nailed it. The low end pull is more noticeable, and if you open it up, it just keeps going, no drop off. I was noticing that today on the highway, accelerating on the on ramp, I was running it up to 5500 rpm, then shifting up. Didn't really need to go any higher. Pretty cool. Can't wait to get the 820 kit in next month....
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Actually this journalist, Dogwalker, and Lowryter (when he visited the factory last year) have all professed to how reps at the factory have said they are aware of the V7 power levels and are working on it (and maybe Galluzi or the Piaggio guys that were showing off the Bagger and the Eldo mentioned it to one of the members herer as well).
So I'm thinking it seems more likely than not something is in the works and coming...
MAYBE THAT is the "new mid-sized" motor they're talking about - i.e. an 850 4V or something like that.
Makes more sense than an "ALL NEW" mid-sized motor.
Not.
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I don't know why you are saying that.
Dogwalker, Lowryter, AND AUTHOR OF THIS ARTCILE seem to each have clearly stated they have been told about a specific variant of the V7 line with more hp in the pipeline.
please stop. I've never been there, never ridden a small block.
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Not.
. fixed
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please stop. I've never been there, never ridden a small block.
You really should.
Ok, Fixed... If you guys would just use actual names instead of screen names.... But then again, for all I knew maybe you're both Johns so to speak. :boozing:
FYI
As I reported last October after my trip to the Guzzi factory and a unique opportunity to talk with ranking production people there, "they are working on it."
All of the many criticisms of the V7 line are very well know, and shared(!), by the management. They have things in the works but reminded me with genuine smiles that such improvements "take time."