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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: willowstreetguzziguy on January 03, 2016, 01:22:16 PM
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Just curious for those who have some experience with the Harley V twin's as well as the Guzzi. What is it about the Guzzi-V twin engine that captivates you more so then the Harley twin? Overlooking the cultural differences, is it the feel, torque, power delivery… What is it that causes you to choose the Guzzi over a Harley?
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The Guzzi engine orientation is superior, from an engineering point of view, in that it offers better cooling. With the crankshaft inline with the frame it's also more logical for shaft drive, which I like.
Peter Y.
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Harleys are ubiquitous.
Moto~Guzzi is not.
I like that.
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besides the brakes and the handling, if you're just talking the V-twin style engines, one term comes to mind:
RPMs.
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Moto Guzzis don't shake and rattle
They have brakes and suspension
The chrome to power ratio is better
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As hinted at above, the 90 degree layout has better natural balance, although the newer rubber mounted Harley engines feel pretty smooth to me when I'm riding them, which is really only when a friend tells me to try riding his. I also like not having the same thing that so many others have. And all my jeans are black, because so many people wear the blue ones.
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I like them both.
Compared to everything else out there they are more similar than dis-similar.
They both make generous torque and run at relatively low rpm.
The is about a 1k difference in general rpm range between a 2V Guzzi and a Sportster, and a 2k difference between the Guzzi and a BT.
That said the difference does mean enjoyable revving on the Goose and even more of a freight train strong pull on the Harleys.
The Guzzi engine orientation is superior, from an engineering point of view, in that it offers better cooling.
This isn't necessarily true. I've posted data on it here over the years.
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Guzzi's 90 degree twin achieves near perfect primary balance without needing to counter balance the crank . Also the shorter stroke makes for a quicker and higher revving motor. As mentioned the cooling and shaft drive advantages are also big. Easy valve adjustments and the lack of having to join a cult are pluses for me as well. Sure , dealer support is important if you want to ride a less than reliable motor bike. :evil:
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Design and character. From the early years of the Guzzi twin, the Guzzi was more oil tight than the Harley. The crankcase is a box with a removable bottom sump, not an external tank with hoses. Also not split vertically. The rocker boxes, carbs, and spark plugs are where you can get at them for easier maintenance than HD, or Brit bikes. The shaft drive meant less oil being flung about. The overall gearing and superior cooling meant that the bike could be ridden further, faster. The primary balance meant that the engine could achieve much longer service life than HD or brit bikes. It was about the best you could buy.
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Lucian , are we not a cult :shocked:
Dusty
I think we're more like a quilt. :laugh:
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I think we're more like a quilt. :laugh:
Fixed it for you.
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I like Guzzis but easy valve adjustments compared to a Harley?
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Can reach the ton on a stock bike for less money.
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Lucian , are we not a cult :shocked:
Dusty
Cult of personalities.
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The Guzzi engine orientation is superior, from an engineering point of view, in that it offers better cooling. With the crankshaft inline with the frame it's also more logical for shaft drive, which I like.
Peter Y.
I do agree with you and personally prefer the Guzzi engine orientation (after all, that's why I have one), but if I wanted to argue the other side on these issues, I would point out that a chain or belt drive is more efficient than a bevel drive, and also that the inline crankshaft layout causes the whole bike to want to lean when the engine is revved. Some find this disconcerting.
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How about some quilted doo rag winter rocker covers?
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if I wanted to argue the other side on these issues, I would point out that a chain drive is more efficient than a bevel drive
Chain drive? H-D?
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Maybe thinking about the chain necklaces. :laugh:
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Being so decidedly different other than the most basic descriptive elements - I find them hard to compare.
I recall that fella's lateral crank, Guzzi specials as being notably unattractive to me so, when the orientation is equal, the Guzzi fails for me.
Then too, there's exposure, so many Guzzis take little advantage of the overall visual appeal of the engine. This one, elsewhere on this page, really makes a point of what we're missing on Guzzi engines. Exposure and body/frame color choices truly make the engine stand out wonderfully.
(https://scontent.fhsv1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlp1/v/t1.0-9/1919108_10207822591345759_7663220931503914146_n.jpg?oh=4e5640e5cc08ef1caeacd6dc0444522f&oe=56FC964B)
Then to HDs: there are still times when I'll walk past a "big twin" and am distracted by how good looking and elemental it can be. Generally, it has to be in an FX/Dyna to not have a bunch of distracting crap all over the bike.
But the cake-taker for me is a proper XR motor; 750 or my own past 1000 in particular.
Anyhow - to directly answer the question - gots to go big Guzzi 2 valve, square head with carbs.
Todd.
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In my opinion the Harley Shovel Head motor is on of the best looking motors ever built of any brand.
Bob
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Ease of maintenance most certainly.
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I prefer the Raven for the best of both worlds :laugh:
http://raven-moto.com/ (http://raven-moto.com/)
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In deed. How many years do you have to go back to find a stock Guzzi that won't do the ton?
Compare that with how far you you need go back to find a HD that won't do the ton?
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What Kev said +...I own both, wonderful motors with character....alive, with some shake, total bliss!!
I like them both.
Compared to everything else out there they are more similar than dis-similar.
They both make generous torque and run at relatively low rpm.
The is about a 1k difference in general rpm range between a 2V Guzzi and a Sportster, and a 2k difference between the Guzzi and a BT.
That said the difference does mean enjoyable revving on the Goose and even more of a freight train strong pull on the Harleys.
This isn't necessarily true. I've posted data on it here over the years.
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Funny story.
A coworker and I decided to ride our bikes to the office one nice spring day. I was on my white Calvin, he rode (rarely) a blinged-out Road King. We were stopped at a light, and he points down to the rocker cover sticking out of the right side of my bike. He then asked "What is that thing, your air filter?"
Couldn't stop laughing as the light turned green and he and his bike got smaller and smaller in my mirrors.
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"IF YOU HAVE TO ASK"!
Many people want to "play the roll" or be part of the in crowd. they also seem to like their nuts cooked like a sweet potato. lots of money helps and it doesn't matter if they can't screw a cap onto the tooth paste. they can pay somebody to do it for them. and that's why Harleys still sell. and yes I've owned 5 and am still a life hog member.
But for me now I just like to ride with a big smile on my face in whatever riding gear feels just right to me and on a bike that doesn't weigh a thousand pounds but does handle and stop.
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I prefer the power band on Guzzis--enough grunt getting off the line but willing to rev quite happily.
Rich A
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I like both, but admit that I prefer the Guzzi. I've always been partial to 360 or 180 degree engines for street bikes. Balance and scavenging are so much easier to maintain with evenly spaced firing intervals, though that Harley sound is pretty cool. Also, the Guzzi configuration deletes the primary case, provides better cornering clearance, and cools more evenly. HD's don't require much fuss under the rocker covers, but the Guzzi provides access that makes a valve adjustment a breeze. Lastly, I've always considered belt-drive to be a bit industrial. I know that it works okay but those big ugly sprockets and toothed belts turn me right off. In execution, both bikes are loaded with personality and fill a very fun niche. I just lean toward the sportier side, I guess.
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Other than depreciation, I like the difference in the cost of ownersip and maintainability.
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I like Guzzis but easy valve adjustments compared to a Harley?
You know that HD has been running hydraulic lifters for decades, right? No valve adustment on Sportster or Big Twin.
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Better looking and smarter riders on Guzzis :laugh:
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I like having mufflers. :evil:
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You know that HD has been running hydraulic lifters for decades, right? No valve adustment on Sportster or Big Twin.
My point exactly.
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I've never ridden harley, but I have ridden the new crop of Indians. The Breva felt positively rattly when I got back on it after riding the Indians.
I didn't like the scout, but I did like the Chieftain a LOT. I liked the immense torque at low revs, but the engines don't invite you to rev them out, nor is the experience very rewarding. For cruising around, which is what they do, they are the perfect engine for the application.
the guzzi engine does reward you for pushing it to the redline, and I can tell that it isn't the least bit phased by doing so either. If you want to have a more sporty ride, you go with the Guzzi.
I didn't get cruisers until I rode that Cheiftain. I could even bring myself to buy one at some point for road trips since they're more comfortable. I don't get the Dressing Like A Pirate thing though.
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Over the years I have owned about 25 bikes, including two Harleys (actually Buell tube-framed ST's) and two MG's, one of them an ST (a Norge). My two all-time favorite bikes (not the best, in terms of performance or reliability), are a 2000 Buell ST (sold to brother-in-law several years ago) and the 2009 Norge that I still ride. The two bikes are very similar in terms of weight, handling, comfort, and braking; the only major differences to me were the engine stroke and configuration, and the final drive. For rides of one full day or less, I favor the Buell: a bit more torque, feel of the motor is more visceral, more fun to ride. For long trips, I favor the Norge: smoother and more comfortable at highway speeds, yet still full of character. In terms of engine and final drive maintenance, there was a big difference: loved the belt drive--never any problems, low maintenance; though it is easy to adjust MG valves, I much preferred the zero-maintenance of the hydraulic valves of the Buell.
Bottom line: if similar motors (1200 cc's) of the two brands are put into a similar chassis, IMO there are far more similarities than there are differences. In fact, one thing that lead me to buy a Norge was the fact that when I took one on a long test ride, it reminded me of my beloved Buells.
Jon
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Chain drive? H-D?
Fixed it. Sorry, in my formative years, Harleys had chains and skirts had hoops.
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The the people that ride them.
Dean
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What is more attractive to you about the Guzzi V-twin vs. the Harley V-twin
PRICE! :popcorn:
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Got to pipe the Norge b4 Strugis. :evil:
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Having owned a couple Sportsters, and then a Sport 1100 and V11 LeMans, I'd say the engine personalities are very different.
The Guzzis like to rev, in relation to the HDs.
And, my solid-mount Sportsters were bone shakers compared to my Guzzis.
The Guzzis are much more enjoyable, long-distance / high-speed.
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1. Apparently Harleys can't create power unless they have loud flatulent exhaust systems. Who wants that?
2. I was looking into getting a Harley many years ago. But the local HD dealer made a few a$$hole comments to me about the Kawasaki that I road in on. He basically didn't want me or my money, so I left. I found out much later that even his son and daughter worked at a different dealer, they hated their father so much. That other dealer was also curious about my MG Centauro when I rode in, not hateful. So that one bad dealer probably soared me on the entire brand for life.
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I want to address the cylinder layout differences and what I feel are misconceptions.
I think everyone here knows that one thing we've learned from science is that you can't always take what seem like logical assumptions as fact because under examination they often prove there was something the assumption didn't take into account.
Everyone assumes that because A Harley V-twin is inline with one cylinder behind the other that the rear cylinder must be at a cooling disadvantage.
What I've found over the years is that is not necessarily the truth, and even when it is the truth it is likely insignificant.
Using an IR pyrometer I tracked head temperatures on multiple Harleys and Guzzis, often operated under the exact same conditions (like on a ride together with Jenn on one and me on the other).
I've posted that data here and other places and discussed it at length, including with other Harley owners who had similar findings.
It might surprise those who have never done this that the rear cylinder on many Harleys runs slightly COOLER than the front, and even when it runs hotter the difference is usually insignificant.
Ironically side-by-side our 00 Jackal ran higher head temps than our carbureted 05 883 Sporty (front or rear cylinder), while our 06 Breva ran cooler head temps than our 07 EFI 1200 Sporty. Though it is likely that all were simply functioning within their specific design parameters. Ironically only the 06 Breva posed any discomfort to the rider and I believe that was because of a design with poor air management (tank and sponsoons blocked too much cool air to the rider).
Anyway here are some thoughts on why the inline design is not necessarily at a disadvantage to the Goose V in the real world with regards to air cooling/temp management:
1. Maybe the layout difference would be more significant if either design was pushed closer to their respective mechanical limits of performance. Certainly some Buell owners complain about heat more than any Sporty owners. The XR1200 Sporty put out more hp stock than Sportys of the same year, and the XR was the only model with an oil cooler (like a Carc). I think a big part of that is simply bike layout, closeness of the rear cylinder to the seat, and/or frame geometry (how much of the airflow is blocked by frame and other components). The Sporty is much more open and even though the cylinder heads on the 1200 were hotter than the Breva 1100 by about 50F it was a much more comfortable bike to ride in temps above 80F.
2. Cooling air on a Harley isn't a static thing. It's not a case that the front cylinder gets pure cold air and the rear gets none. The front cylinder gets air that is fouled by the front exhaust header (pre-heated), but the rear exhaust header exits BEHIND the rear cylinder and shouldn't really have much of an effect on the air cooling the rear cylinder. Also think about motion of air as being similar to water, when you move through it you create turbulence, spirals, waves. As the front cylinder cuts the air it causes cooler air from both sides to spiral back toward the rear cylinder.
3. Heat is spread around the various cooling surfaces throughout the motor by oil. This is especially true on Harleys built in the last decade or so where they have added things like piston oil jets to air in cooling. As emissions standards have tightened and EFI has leaned fuel mixtures they have also greatly increased the surface area of the cooling fins. The result is a motor that cools itself pretty well, for both the front and rear cylinders.
4. Bikes are made of Metal not Flesh. I think we sometimes forget that a 10F difference in temp from one cylinder head to another, especially if we're already talking temps in the 250F range, means very little to metal.
Now that's not to say there aren't some disadvantages to the layout. Obviously the inline V puts the rear header closer to the rider than say a parallel, transverse cylinder twin (longitudinal crank), or opposed twin layouts. That is where differences in individual sizes and bikes may make some feel heat or discomfort but not others. I can say all the Sportsters I've owned, the Road King I owned, and the various other big twins I've had access too (mostly Dynas) all were not a problem for me (or for Jenn). Even my S3T didn't seem to be much of an issue, but it's possible I never really rode it when temps were in say the 90s. I do know that Jenn feels the heat from her Monster when ambients are up, and I don't really get that either, so that could be an ergonomic difference or difference in tolerances/perception.
And yeah the inline V does put the rocker boxes right under the frame, but since I don't need to remove them for maintenance it's hardly a disadvantage.
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Having owned a couple Sportsters, and then a Sport 1100 and V11 LeMans, I'd say the engine personalities are very different.
The Guzzis like to rev, in relation to the HDs.
And, my solid-mount Sportsters were bone shakers compared to my Guzzis.
The Guzzis are much more enjoyable, long-distance / high-speed.
But your solidmount Sporty experience is more than a decade out of date. My current XL1200Lr is in some ways completely different from my old 93 XL1200, especially in terms of long-distance/high speed comfort and ability.
Now I've not ridden a V11 Sport, but again compared to my Jackal, Breva 1100, or V7, the difference in revs is pretty small (like I said about 1k).
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But your solidmount Sporty experience is more than a decade out of date. My current XL1200Lr is in some ways completely different from my old 93 XL1200, especially in terms of long-distance/high speed comfort and ability.
Now I've not ridden a V11 Sport, but again compared to my Jackal, Breva 1100, or V7, the difference in revs is pretty small (like I said about 1k).
Big block Harley's run out of steam a little over 5k rpm while the big block Guzzi happily revs past 8k.
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I know that Buell felt the need to but a big loud 'turbine' to blow on the rear cylinder of the one I test road to keep the rear cylinder cool.
Someone knew there was an issue there.
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But your solidmount Sporty experience is more than a decade out of date. My current XL1200Lr is in some ways completely different from my old 93 XL1200, especially in terms of long-distance/high speed comfort and ability.
Now I've not ridden a V11 Sport, but again compared to my Jackal, Breva 1100, or V7, the difference in revs is pretty small (like I said about 1k).
Yeah. That's why I noted that they were solid-mount. I've ridden the rubber-mount Sportsters, and though the vibes are reduced, the engine personality is still lazy, as compared to a Sport 1100 or V11 Sport/LeMans.
You might be amazed at how different the California 1100 is from the V11 Sport/LeMans. The V11's have lighter flywheels and a lot more power. My California Bassa was positively lazy when compared to my V11 LeMans.
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I know that Buell felt the need to but a big loud 'turbine' to blow on the rear cylinder of the one I test road to keep the rear cylinder cool.
Someone knew there was an issue there.
I think that had to do with his new frame blocking engine air flow.
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Big block Harley's run out of steam a little over 5k rpm while the big block Guzzi happily revs past 8k.
Well, to be clear, let me refer to both my previous posts on the subject.
I differentiated between BTs and Sportys, and compared them to the various 2V Big Block and Small Block Guzzis I've owned.
I also wasn't necessarily comparing peak rpm, so much as typical usable/desired rpm range. And I'll maintain Sportys are about 1k below and BTs about 2k below the same for the 2V Guzzis I've owned.
That said, if we want to talk about peaks I wouldn't say any of my Guzzis "rev'd happily" PAST 8k. As a matter of fact, most every Guzzi dyno chart I've ever seen shows torque to be dropping past 7k. I'm not sure I've ever rev'd much past 7k on any of the ones I've owned.
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I know that Buell felt the need to but a big loud 'turbine' to blow on the rear cylinder of the one I test road to keep the rear cylinder cool.
Someone knew there was an issue there.
I assume it was not a tuber. The later box-framed models really encased the rear cylinder a bit too much. But I addressed that in my post on the subject.
Yeah. That's why I noted that they were solid-mount. I've ridden the rubber-mount Sportsters, and though the vibes are reduced, the engine personality is still lazy, as compared to a Sport 1100 or V11 Sport/LeMans.
You might be amazed at how different the California 1100 is from the V11 Sport/LeMans. The V11's have lighter flywheels and a lot more power. My California Bassa was positively lazy when compared to my V11 LeMans.
Yeah, I would believe that difference. And in that sense I'm sure my B11 was more related to my Jackal in terms of mass/rev-ability etc.
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Tuber ?
Isn't that a root vegetable ?
Dusty
Well, not to be overly picky, but, botanically, a tuber is a modified stem, not a root. So, there!
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I expect that combustion chamber temperatures are more about fuel mapping/jetting than engine layout. Any air-cooled engine runs hotter with a lean mixture...it's not only about airflow. However, Guzzi's layout does offer cooling air equally to both cylinders...
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Wow! All these posts and no mentioned the sound. My 850 with its RennSport exhaust sounds like a small block chevy revving up. No Harley will ever sound like that,
Pete
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Kev, parade mode kicks out the rear cylinder I believe.
wussup with that?
p.s. miss my little sporty, took me through Mexico 25yrs. ago..
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The Guzzi has the advantage in lower engine vibration. While I didn't feel a lot of vibes on my Buell S2 at speed, it shook like a paint shaker under 2,000 rpms. The rubber engine mounts works well at highway speeds, but the engine is still shaking like crazy. It shook the carburetor to death, broke the carb needle. I had to keep a careful eye on things loosening. When it blew a head gasket and the dealer told me they all sound like that I gave up. So far the Griso is dead reliable after a year and a half, and I can work on it myself if/when I need to.
Also the Griso is way more fun in the twisties!
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Kev, parade mode kicks out the rear cylinder I believe.
wussup with that?
It's not available on all models (maybe only the dressers, or only on BTs, I know it is not available as a rider activated feature on any of the Sportsters).
And, as I understand it, in the current form it can only be activated at a dead stop/idle.
When activated it shuts off fuel and ignition to the rear cylinder in order for it to act as an air pump increasing cooling until the throttle is opened again, automatically restarting fuel/ignition on that cylinder and returning performance to normal.
They chose the rear cylinder for the obvious reason that it is closest to the rider so IF the heat was starting to bother the rider than that would have the greatest effect.
I believe early versions of the system may have only activated automatically at a certain temperature threshold, like a protected mode. But I don't know how much of that is fact vs. rumor and certainly I've never had it happen on any I've ridden.
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The Guzzi has the advantage in lower engine vibration. While I didn't feel a lot of vibes on my Buell S2 at speed,
<snip>
Also the Griso is way more fun in the twisties!
Funny you should mention that - because my S3T felt very similar to me to the Griso I've ridden.
And size/ergonomically/weight/power they seemed very similar to me.
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Comparing a Harley to a Guzzi on a Guzzi website :grin: Try comparing a Ford to a Chevy on a Chevy website...
My experience on Guzzi is limited to a 76 Lemans and a 85 stripped down Cali 2 cafe bike....My experience on modern Harleys is my current 97 Buell tube frame....
My Buell has a aftermarket muffler and 42MM Mikuni......... it revs right up to 6500 rpm no problem.The Buell accelerates faster and is smoother at higher RPM's... The Buell engine shakes noticeably on it's rubber mounts below 2500 rpm. Sound? Both sound good but different. The Guzzi shakes at low speed but it's less annoying than the Buell. I won't get into handling because they are too different to compare fairly.
Harley parts have many sources....MG, not so many....
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The the people that ride them.
Dean
Amen to that. I know there are some really great Harley riders out there, but for every one I met there were how many posers?
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Wow! All these posts and no mentioned the sound. My 850 with its RennSport exhaust sounds like a small block chevy revving up. No Harley will ever sound like that,
Pete
Here Here! The sound of a Guzzi at full throttle with modest exhaust relief certainly stirs my motorcycling soul.
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Comparing a Harley to a Guzzi on a Guzzi website :grin: Try comparing a Ford to a Chevy on a Chevy website...
My experience on Guzzi is limited to a 76 Lemans and a 85 stripped down Cali 2 cafe bike....My experience on modern Harleys is my current 97 Buell tube frame....
My Buell has a aftermarket muffler and 42MM Mikuni......... it revs right up to 6500 rpm no problem.The Buell accelerates faster and is smoother at higher RPM's... The Buell engine shakes noticeably on it's rubber mounts below 2500 rpm. Sound? Both sound good but different. The Guzzi shakes at low speed but it's less annoying than the Buell. I won't get into handling because they are too different to compare fairly.
Harley parts have many sources....MG, not so many....
The Buell modded Sportster engines were great. Revved freely to redline. I really liked the 984cc XB9s.
Hard to compare Buells to Sportsters, though. The Buells are much lighter and have a lot more power.
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Thanks for explanation Kev.
After I posted question I guessed that it may have had something to do with
keeping our dangly parts from getting toasty...
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Here Here! The sound of a Guzzi at full throttle with modest exhaust relief certainly stirs my motorcycling soul.
Right after that, I'd say the sound of a Guzzi engine on deceleration (fully closed throttle) at high speed going though a tunnel.
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Hard to compare Buells to Sportsters, though. The Buells are much lighter and have a lot more power.
Here are some potentially interesting comparisons.
Tube Frame Buells:
96 Buell ST2 59 rwhp / 64 ft. lbs. 517# wet
97 Buell S3 74 rwhp / 70 ft. lbs. 496# wet
99 Buell X1 84 rwhp / 73 ft. lbs. 495# wet
99 Buell S3T 90 rwhp / 70 ft. lbs. 514# wet
Box Frame Buells:
02 Buell XB9R 75 rwhp / 60 ft. lbs. 450# wet
03 Buell XB12S 85 rwhp / 71 ft. lbs. 462# wet
06 Buell XB12S 81 rwhp / 68 ft. lbs. 471# wet
Rubbermount Sportsters:
10 883L (Superlow) 48 rwhp / 48 ft. lbs. 567# wet
07 1200N (Nightster) 57 rwhp / 64 ft. lbs. 564# wet
12 1200V 55 rwhp / 60 ft. lbs. 560# wet
13 1200X (48) 60 rwhp / 65 ft. lbs. 551# wet
09 XR1200 79 rwhp / 68 ft. lbs. 580# wet
Now what these numbers don't tell us is about the differences in brakes/handling, the Buell's generally having shorter wheelbases, great brakes, and great handling compared to lower/slower/heavier handling nature of most Sportys (at least stock).
But you see the current Sportys are approaching some of the performance numbers of the tube-framed Buells, but they are still plus about 50-60#.
The XR 1200 came the closest, though it was still porky by at least 60#.
None of the Sportys really get to the level of the XB Buells in weight/handling or especially power-to-weight ratios.
But it's not uncommon for a Stage I (air cleaner, pipes, and tuner) EFI 1200 Sportster to be putting down 80 rwhp / 80 ft. lbs. and there are a number of 100 hp builds out there which require some additional head work and cams, and often include a 1250cc kit while they're at it.
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There are Harleys out there making serious power...The main issue with Harley performance is the reluctance of many riders to install a real tuned exhaust system rather than the power restricting shorty duals ....
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There are Harleys out there making serious power...The main issue with Harley performance is the reluctance of many riders to install a real tuned exhaust system rather than the power restricting shorty duals ....
:cool:
http://www.avinton.fr/galeries-en/#top
SS engine, tank under seat, relatively light, more torque than hp.... and it has 120hp!!!!
(http://moto.zombdrive.com/images/avinton-7.jpg)
(http://motorbikewriter.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/avinton-roadster-and-race.jpg)
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Kinda funny, asking (mainly) Guzzi owners what's more attractive about their bikes . . .
I own both (Aluminium, plus two H-D Touring bikes). $$$ is not an issue. If I cared about cost, I wouldn't ride, because motorcycles are not cost-effective when compared with (economy) cars.
For many years, I didn't have anything to do with Harleys, because of my view of the sort who rode them. That's an idiotic point of view, in my opinion, because even if MOST H-D riders have subnormal IQs, who cares?
Turns out that modern Harleys are very well-built and run very nicely, particularly in stock configuration. Of my eight bikes, I like my Road King more than any other, on a nice day, with no pressing destination in mind. It handles well, has plenty of power for any reasonable urge, and is extremely comfortable.
My Moto Guzzi, on the other hand, is very attractive. The engineer and perfectionist in me likes the bilateral symmetry, with the jugs both out in the wind for good cooling (I like BMW twins as well, and have owned a few). Friends have told me that the Aluminium is the prettiest bike in my garage (not sure I agree, but these are non-motorcyclists). I like its different-ness. The world around here seems full of Harleys. Not so with MG.
Wouldn't own it as my only bike, but I never tire of looking at it. I'd dump it in a heartbeat over my Road King.
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The main reasons I prefer the Guzzi:
1. Driveshaft - and don't bother to tell that a belt drive is just as good. I don't care
2. I don't want to have to get a tattoo
3. I prefer not to have to wear earplugs at idle
4. I hate seeing myself coming and going. HD's too conformist
5. I like Italian motorcycles and German cars
6. I don't like the paint shaker idle
7. Ride to eat / Eat to ride is not my cup of tea
8. I don't have a beer belly and really don't want one
9. I don't want to wear a beanie helmet
10. I don't want to spend more for a Harley than Miata
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I spent a week on a new Road King in Utah last June. It inspired me to a get cruiser again. Much as I liked the King, though, I wanted something less common, and had never owned a Guzzi. A test ride on the Cali revealed a remarkably agile cruiser with high style and panache, so it was a done deal. On a thread-related note, I also owned a Buell M2 Cyclone for a decade. It was neat, unusual motorcycle, and I'm kind of sorry I sold it.
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:cool:
http://www.avinton.fr/galeries-en/#top
SS engine, tank under seat, relatively light, more torque than hp.... and it has 120hp!!!!
(http://moto.zombdrive.com/images/avinton-7.jpg)
(http://motorbikewriter.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/avinton-roadster-and-race.jpg)
Uh , those ain't a Harley :evil:
Dusty
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Uh , those ain't a Harley :evil:
Dusty
Nope, but they sure are pretty and I bet a lot of fun to ride.
Bob
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Better looking and smarter riders on Guzzis :laugh:
true.. true. :smiley:
Look, I get it. I like the feel of the Harley engine. The bikes are anachronisms, though.
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Rather than spend a pile of cash on the bikes above, just do what I did... $2500 tube frame Buell, 500 bucks for the induction system and chain drive...Bike is an absolute pisser for a fast ride on back roads....
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1625/24180030435_e7660f9732_c.jpg)
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That's what a modern Sportster should be.
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Uh , those ain't a Harley :evil:
Dusty
Duh, but the S&S motor is based on the EVO loosely speaking, so they're genetically related.
Kinda like another view of what Buell could have done if allowed to.
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Duh, but the S&S motor is based on the EVO loosely speaking, so they're genetically related.
Kinda like another view of what Buell could have done if allowed to.
OK , but since it is you that likes to parse out every detail , these aren't a Harley :evil: Loosely speaking or not :rolleyes:
Dusty
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When I bought my Vintage, I did seriously consider a Road King. It was gorgeous, had the kit I wanted, and was really comfortable. However, the weight and lousy cornering clearance was just a deal breaker. I felt like I could deal with the shortfalls on the Vintage (seat, windshield, and fuel map), but there was no way that Harley was going to take off 175 pounds. Before the Vintage, I was always a mid-sized bike guy. Up until then, a '74 Norton 850 was my biggest bike. The Road Kings and most of the "Bagger" genre were so huge and ponderous that I have never developed a serious interest.
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The reasons I ride a Guzzi and not a Harley are these,
1, When I started riding, only outlaws, old men and cops rode Harleys. I didn't fall into any of those categories
2, I like performance, acceleration, top speed, braking and handling. Guzzi surpasses Harley on all counts, except a drag race for the first 100 feet.
3, I don't need to own a certain brand of bike to make friends. I have plenty of friends, some even ride Harleys.
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I like both. Anyone who hasn't ridden a recent HD could be surprised. I rented a 2014 Street Glide 103 recently for a long weekend. Bone stock, pipes and all. 100mph with ease and power to leave normal traffic way back in the vibration free mirrors. It was far more comfy than my Cal III Touring and LeMans IV. Gorgeous engine and it handled unknown twistys far better than expected. Downside? Suspension and price. The question I asked myself repeatedly was why bother with loud pipes, screaming eagle, etc? The powertrain is a gem.
Now, as posted earlier in this thread, a well displayed Guzzi 2 valve BB is a gorgeous thing that delivers on it's looks. There's just no reason to have to choose. Fwiw, I rarely ride my LeMans anymore but I'll be renting a Road Glide next. I like the little ego stroke of riding something different, the Guzzi, and as far as people go, I met very nice, educated HD riders on my rental weekend.
Tobit
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I like both. Anyone who hasn't ridden a recent HD could be surprised. I rented a 2014 Street Glide 103 recently for a long weekend. Bone stock, pipes and all. 100mph with ease and power to leave normal traffic way back in the vibration free mirrors. It was far more comfy than my Cal III Touring and LeMans IV. Gorgeous engine and it handled unknown twistys far better than expected. Downside? Suspension and price. The question I asked myself repeatedly was why bother with loud pipes, screaming eagle, etc? The powertrain is a gem.
Now, as posted earlier in this thread, a well displayed Guzzi 2 valve BB is a gorgeous thing that delivers on it's looks. There's just no reason to have to choose. Fwiw, I rarely ride my LeMans anymore but I'll be renting a Road Glide next. I like the little ego stroke of riding something different, the Guzzi, and as far as people go, I met very nice, educated HD riders on my rental weekend.
Tobit
Well at 1700cc, I would hope it could get out of its own way! Hard to compare a Lemans IV to this beast, as the RK has well over 700cc on the Guzzi!
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I've had 4 H-D'S and they were all ok. They in no way remind me of my Guzzi motors-V7 and Norge. Not one bit. The MG motor also doesn't feel nearly as much like the 88 Twin Cam my friend rides. The HD motor feels much more like my Triumph Thunderbird 1600 than either of my bikes or any Guzzi I've had the pleasure to pilot.
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OK , but since it is you that likes to parse out every detail , these aren't a Harley :evil: Loosely speaking or not :rolleyes:
Dusty
You beat me to it Dusty. Buell's are not Harley Davidson. They just run an HD power plant. After that it is all Buell. They are distant cousins as far as I am concerned. Buell built them to compete with Ducati and give those sport HD riders something that Harley was not making: a sport MC with a Harley power plant. Buell is the odd man out when comparing talking about HDs.
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I'm still not convinced about Harley rear cylinder not running hot. Not saying Kev M is wrong, just that I'm not convinced and would like more evidence. I dunno much about Harleys.
Just doesn't seem right to me. For example, I would think air cooling proportional to velocity of the air. So how can an exhaust collar that is directly in fresh cooling air on the front cylinder not be cooler than one on the rear cylinder that is not directly in the airstream, and is only cooled indirectly by air that has passed over TWO cylinders in front of it?
For example, how definitive is a infrared scope reading on the heads taken at rest, as opposed to at speed? Anyone have more accurate cylinder head temp readings at speed? What about that rear facing exhaust--is that area not significantly hotter than the front?
Any data from Harley mechanics? For example, does the exhaust valve on the front cylinder last longer than the one on the rear?
And even if the two cylinders are comparable in temperature, how do we know it's because the air cooling was equally effective? Does the rear cylinder run richer than the front? Is the ignition advance on the rear different from the front?
I'm not arguing, and don't claim to know the correct answer. Just curious.
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Air flow is only one component on how hot an engine (heads) will run. Oil flow (and capacity), gearing, weight to power ratio, carburation, exhaust, body work, including even windshields, saddle bags/aerodynamics that put a drag on the big are just a few I can think of. What about the castings of the jugs/ heads. All metal does not transmit heat equally. Fin size: isn't that why Guzzi went to the square fin for the 1000 cc to increase heat dissipation.
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Many Evo Harley riders report over 100,000 miles before the engine needs to to be disassembled for repairs.. I would say cooling is not an issue for bikes ridden within the design limits...
The older Shovelheads could have shorter lifespans with head temperatures over 300F when pulling a grade on a hot day.
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Oh lord. Here we go again.
I've tried to avoid posting on this thread. Non-H-D riders seem to be obsessed with dissing The Motor Company. Most of the time, the negative comments are based largely on ignorance and no experience riding the Big Twins, especially the ones built in the last decade or two.
I like both Guzzi and Harley.
Really, one can like more than one brand! I promise. It's okay.
Modern Harley Davidson bikes are extremely reliable and extremely low maintenance. Not even Guzzi can match them in this regard. You don't have all the fiddling and major problems with H-D that you do with so many of the European bikes. Just scroll through our own WG thread topics and take a look.
H-D dealer availability and support is supreme. The H-D's do not leak oil and the rear cylinders do not cause problems.
The market for motorcycles is heavily weighted towards cruiser styling and ergonomics. Hence, many H-D models are not intended to be sport bikes. Although their standard-suspended bikes will handle better than many would expect, upgrading their suspension can make a H-D that will handle with just about anything.
H-D outsells everybody else by a wide margin. My local, medium-sized H-D dealer sells more H-D's in a year that Guzzi sells in ALL of the USA AND Canada in a year. If H-D's were beset with problems, this would not be so.
With such a dominant brand, you find riders of all sorts. I do not aspire to the leather fringe, chaps and pirate get-ups you often see with the cruiser guys. However, you see greater numbers of long-distance H-D riders than anything else and they do not all fit that stereotype. You also see more than you'd expect with their bikes jacked up with H-D performance shocks or Ohlins or other bits and they are cutting some tight curves in the mountains.
As far as the appearance and demographic of riders, take a good look around at your next rally of any sort. No offense intended. Just saying.
One final jab. Even though the old Harleys commonly bear the brunt of criticism, I have a 38-year-old Shovelhead with 110,000 miles on the original engine except for a top-end valve job. It has never broken or left me stranded in the 38 years I've owned it. That is something I cannot say about any of the other many bikes I've owned. I regularly ride the Shovel at 80+ and it still tops out at about 110.
Anyway, this is a Guzzi forum. I realize that. I just had to inject a correction to some of the comments.
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OK , but since it is you that likes to parse out every detail , these aren't a Harley :evil: Loosely speaking or not :rolleyes:
Dusty
That's like saying the early Garlic Injuns weren't Harleys.
They ran an aftermarket Softail frame and S&S motor, so similar to the Harley Softails my buddy often sources parts (like a primary assembly) from Harley.
Yeah it's semantics and obviously neither was produced by Harley (like an early Buell), but the DNA is obvious. The motor is more Harley than anything else. It's certainly not JAPanINC., nor is it Polaris, or Triumph, or BMW, or Ducati, or Guzzi etc.
So loosely speaking it's more Harley than not, even if it's not a "HARLEY". :rolleyes:
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I've had 4 H-D'S and they were all ok. They in no way remind me of my Guzzi motors-V7 and Norge. Not one bit. The MG motor also doesn't feel nearly as much like the 88 Twin Cam my friend rides. The HD motor feels much more like my Triumph Thunderbird 1600 than either of my bikes or any Guzzi I've had the pleasure to pilot.
What Harleys did you own? Because if we're nit picking there's a bigger difference between a BT and a Sporty power plant than many realize.
And what would you liken the character of the V7 or 2V big block motors to in terms of power/torque delivery and feel, and rpm range?
Certainly not an L4 or triple, not a parallel twin, not a Ducati. Maybe they span some position between an opposed twin and a Harley, but I personally find the more visceral nature of the motor closer related more to my Harleys (closer to Sportsters).
Don't get me wrong there are differences, plenty in some ways. But nothing comes to mind that the Guzzis are more similar too either.
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That's like saying the early Garlic Injuns weren't Harleys.
They ran an aftermarket Softail frame and S&S motor, so similar to the Harley Softails my buddy often sources parts (like a primary assembly) from Harley.
Yeah it's semantics and obviously neither was produced by Harley (like an early Buell), but the DNA is obvious. The motor is more Harley than anything else. It's certainly not JAPanINC., nor is it Polaris, or Triumph, or BMW, or Ducati, or Guzzi etc.
So loosely speaking it's more Harley than not, even if it's not a "HARLEY". :rolleyes:
Those were waisicu bikes .
Dusty
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I'm still not convinced about Harley rear cylinder not running hot. Not saying Kev M is wrong, just that I'm not convinced and would like more evidence. I dunno much about Harleys.
Just doesn't seem right to me. For example, I would think air cooling proportional to velocity of the air. So how can an exhaust collar that is directly in fresh cooling air on the front cylinder not be cooler than one on the rear cylinder that is not directly in the airstream, and is only cooled indirectly by air that has passed over TWO cylinders in front of it?
For example, how definitive is a infrared scope reading on the heads taken at rest, as opposed to at speed? Anyone have more accurate cylinder head temp readings at speed? What about that rear facing exhaust--is that area not significantly hotter than the front?
Any data from Harley mechanics? For example, does the exhaust valve on the front cylinder last longer than the one on the rear?
And even if the two cylinders are comparable in temperature, how do we know it's because the air cooling was equally effective? Does the rear cylinder run richer than the front? Is the ignition advance on the rear different from the front?
I'm not arguing, and don't claim to know the correct answer. Just curious.
There are other factors and I cited many of them.
Air fuel mixture may play a part on carbureted models (which I believe we're more prone to showing higher temps in front). But that's a complicated issue since Weber-Marelli discovered in the 90's how weird the shared intact tract on the narrow Harley V behaves. There's turbulence in that manifold which is constantly changing incoming charge on both cylinders when at idle.
It may also have to do with the irregular ignition timing, one cylinder closely following the other.
Static readings are normally taken immediately after operation at speed so I discount that objection.
And again I think you're feeling into the trap of assuming air is linear. The front cylinder often has air being blocked by things like the forks, engine guards, regulator, and/or horn which complicates things.
The rear cylinder is being air pulled it from the sides. I don't think there's much of a vacuum being created.
Bottom line I'm saying that there seems to be no actual advantage in the real world unless we assume the power/running differences that have evolved into a seeming preference somehow evolved as a result of these differences and I guess that's possible.
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My splayed-out knees helped direct air to the rear cylinder of my Sportsters.
While I never measured the temps with any device, I never noticed the rear being noticeably hotter.
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Technically speaking, the rear cylinder on a tandem V can tend to run slightly hotter than the front. So what? Adjustments are made to cope with it and, practically speaking, this has not caused any significant issue. There's a lot of them out there.
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Due to mounting and frame differences, it's difficult IMHO to greatly compare engine to engine so here I just note some differences in general of my rides on both bikes. Since I've only ridden the Dyna and the 1200 Sporty, that's all I have to compare. The Dyna felt closer to my 1100 Calis as per feel, suspension, and even motor kinda but I can't remotely keep up with which motor was in that Dyna those years ago. Between these latter two I preferred the Goose by far. I just felt more at home on it and my riding more akin to where the meat of the power was and that sorta thing.
But as per the Sporty (and I ride my buddy's 1200 regularly and have test driven several), now there are some enjoyable differences IMHO. Don't get me wrong, I'd still hands down choose any one of my former 4 Calis for an everyday motorcycle. To me personally the Sporty frame feels too spindly, the motor vibrates your fillings out, and heat dumps on my leg. Without suspension upgrades of some sort I could not imagine driving one for 80-100 miles a sitting even. At 75 mph it feels like I'm doing 110 whereas with my Calis at 85 felt more like 60. Having said that, I seriously love the Sporty and will (shrug) admit that it's a more "fun" ride than my Calis per se. In the curves I almost feel like I could toss it around more easily compared to my former Geese. Roll ons are a blast and my bud's (with modified exhaust) will pretty much smoke my Guzzis from any pickup speed below 70. It's what many here have already cited, a pleasurable "visceral" feel.
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Bp, what year Sporty? I'm guessing <04 from your description because the rubbermounts don't vibrate anything out of your teeth. I swear my Guzzi big blocks transmitted more vibration to the rider than either of our rubbermount Sportsters.
And as for power, comfort, handling I'll put our 07 XL1200Lr up against a Tonti Cali anyday. They were close in dimensions, power, handling, comfort etc.
But yeah our Lr has tall Progressive shocks (the very same ones that were on my Jackal for a few years), the taller front suspension from the 1200R models (and the dual disc brakes from it too), a taller/thicker Mustang seat for comfort etc.
Ask Stormtruck who put a ~600 miles on it this summer over a short weekend, or Bill whom he chased while on his Griso.
I think both were surprised by it.
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I've had both Harley (4 v-twins, 2 big, 2 Sporty) and SB Guzzi (4 of them). Since I live 4 miles from MotoInt, and don't tour, the choice is simple.
Seriously, there is much good about both v-twins. The 750 Breva is smoother than the 883 Sporty at highway speed.
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On my tube frame Sportster engine Buell the rear cylinder is close to the riders right leg. There's a heat shield that I removed to clean up the looks so to speak. I can feel the heat on my leg in warm weather but it's never down right uncomfortable. In general the engine runs warmer than some bike riders are used to....quality synthetic oil is a good idea..
Engines are heat pumps and it is well documented that so long as detonation is under control and intake air is cooler,an engine will be more efficient at higher temperatures. Modern vehicles run at 210 F degrees, some higher, they make good power and have a long lifespans...NASCAR engines continue to build power to about 240 F degrees. My vintage 650 Triumph race bike turns it's best times with a hot engine.... Of course there's a fine line between hot and too hot and it's harder to maintain with an air cooled engine.
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Bp, what year Sporty? I'm guessing <04 from your description because the rubbermounts don't vibrate anything out of your teeth. I swear my Guzzi big blocks transmitted more vibration to the rider than either of our rubbermount Sportsters.
And as for power, comfort, handling I'll put our 07 XL1200Lr up against a Tonti Cali anyday. They were close in dimensions, power, handling, comfort etc.
I think both were surprised by it.
Honestly, I'm not sure but I think his "might" be an '04. When started you can watch the handlebars move at rapid vibration, almost like you are grabbing hold of the bike when you first start out. But the overall point to my post is that I very much enjoy the differences of the Sporty, and may have even preferred it for certain kinds of riding. I too was greatly surprised the first time I rode my friend's bike. All those years I just assumed HDs were crappy handling, overweight, slow bikes.
If asked, however (what? Shut up, nobody's asking? :afro: :grin: ) I'd still choose my V7 Stone over my former Calis or the HDs. It just suits me, mostly.
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Honestly, I'm not sure but I think his "might" be an '04. When started you can watch the handlebars move at rapid vibration, almost like you are grabbing hold of the bike when you first start out.
It's almost certainly an 03 or earlier - OR IT'S BROKEN.
Seriously, HD engineers designed the rubbermount bikes around comfort and specifically vibration at the bars. An engineer friend of mine who worked for them for a period said they measured vibration at the bars as part of the design process.
The Rubbermount sportsters are so much smoother than the solidmounts that they changed from handlebar risers with rubber isolating bushings on the solidmounts, to solid billet aluminum risers on the rubbermounts.
I'm not exaggerating when I say it transmits less vibration to me as a rider than did my 00 Jackal or 06 Breva (or 96 R1100RS, or a number of other bikes I've owned).
In contrast my 1993 Sportster used to leave my hands and feet numb, and would crack parts or vibrate them loose.
Our 04, 05, and current 07 Sportsters are completely different beasts from that perspective, unless I hug the air cleaner with my right knee, then I have a slight window into what the 93 was like.
They really did an great job of redesigning and improving the Sportster in almost every way while largely preserving the look and overall feel. The only real downside to the rubbermount bikes is that they made them about 50# heavier than the last of the solidmounts and, in most cases, they lowered them. But the later is easily addressed even if you're stuck with the former without large dollar investments.
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I too owned a Harley a few years back and here's my take. I did not experience the "paint can shaker" at idle. It was about equal to my Cali 14 at idle. It's an established fact that the rear cylinder does get hotter than the front. That's not open for debate. What is open is just how hot is too hot? I'm sure there are many opinions on that. The bottom line on that is if you're moving it doesn't matter. If you're in a stop and go traffic jam when the outside temp is 95 degrees, it does matter and it could matter A LOT. That's why there are accessory and aftermarket electric cooling fans available, and not just for police bikes. Many owners install them.
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I too owned a Harley a few years back and here's my take. I did not experience the "paint can shaker" at idle. It was about equal to my Cali 14 at idle. It's an established fact that the rear cylinder does get hotter than the front. That's not open for debate. What is open is just how hot is too hot? I'm sure there are many opinions on that. The bottom line on that is if you're moving it doesn't matter. If you're in a stop and go traffic jam when the outside temp is 95 degrees, it does matter and it could matter A LOT. That's why there are accessory and aftermarket electric cooling fans available, and not just for police bikes. Many owners install them.
Established fact?
Well, I'll say this, it does seem like on EFI bikes the temps are a lot closer and I do get reports (and have seen) the rear hotter than the front more often than I did on carb bikes. I do think the intake manifold charge and offset timing on the carbureted models made for the biggest differences.
Here's a report on a TC motor which was studied extensively to look at and regulate cooling:
http://www.wardspartswerks.com/tc-cooling-story.html
The Hot rear cylinder
"The rear cylinder runs way hotter than the front cylinder." This is something I have heard many times over, from all kinds of sources. After gaining the ability to "see" my front and rear CHT I have consistently witnessed that the rear is hotter but not significantly. The greatest difference I have seen is 30F higher on the rear, but that is only after extended high RPM operation out on the highway. Slow moving in town, about 40 MPH and below, the front and rear CHTs tend to equalize rather quickly. Anyway, most of the time during moderate cruising and non-extreme operation, the rear CHT is only about 10-15F hotter than the front.
Granted it's been years since I looked into it, and I can't find any of the articles or discussions I've seen, even the thermo images that showed highly comparable temps (yes sometimes, but NOT ALWAYS hotter at the rear).
But again, when true, it's not an issue. It's not as black and white as many seem to want to believe.
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Having ridden a couple of examples of every generation of Harley , yes , all the way back to a JD , honestly , everyone left me with a feeling of disconnectedness . Hard to define the sensation , just that I was merely a passenger and not really connected to the bike . Obviously the old models with rigid rear sections and very little in the way of front suspension let the rider feel every bump , and up until the advent of rubber mounting and the later Beta motors the operator was treated to a "soothing" vibration :rolleyes: Still , simply could never develop a relationship with any HD , even the sportier models .
Dusty
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Having ridden a couple of examples of every generation of Harley , yes , all the way back to a JD , honestly , everyone left me with a feeling of disconnectedness . Hard to define the sensation , just that I was merely a passenger and not really connected to the bike . Obviously the old models with rigid rear sections and very little in the way of front suspension let the rider feel every bump , and up until the advent of rubber mounting and the later Beta motors the operator was treated to a "soothing" vibration :rolleyes: Still , simply could never develop a relationship with any HD , even the sportier models .
Dusty
Well, that be the best reason ever not to ride one.
Ironically it's about the opposite of how I've ever felt about one, even the ones I don't particulary like as in say an old Fat Boy.
Honestly the closest I've ever felt to that was probably my old Oilhead which really felt too much like an appliance and I was just "on-board".
Maybe there were some press loaners I felt that way about too... The RT was similar if I recall.
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I have ridden H.D's since the mid 1950's. I have liked some more than others, my latest and current is a 2006 Dyna that the speed O just rolled over to 100,000 miles ,it set the mark high for how I will gauge future motorcycles.
I bought my first Moto Guzzi last year and have put 12,000 miles on it in the 9 months I have owned it, hopefully it will give me the great service my H.D Dyna has.
Bob
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I contemplated a buddy's 09 RK that had every street legal mod you could put on the engine. Stage four big bore, cams , pipes, ignition, ect. ect . Dealers notes on the test ride said "this is a very fast motor cycle" :shocked: Truth is it pulled like crazy for about two gears and then ran out of steam quickly as the revs climbed. The starter would barely crank the thing over and it was so loud I cant imagine it would have taken a sticker. With over $10,000 in mod's it wouldn't even come close to the performance and handling of a stock 1400 at half the costs. I am sure reliability would suffer greatly with those type of mods to the HD. And in stock form they seemed all show and no go. I realize a cruiser is a cruiser, until you have ridden the Moto Guzzi version. It truly is one of a kind in the segment. I just can't get my head around the HD pricing for what you get performance wise. As I understand it you pay extra on a HD for abs and cruise control and just about everything else you would expect to come on a $20,000 bike . I admit aesthetically some HD models are quite nice to look at, and resale, dealer network, and the build quality are all in there favor, but all around performance in stock form? certainly not.
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RPMs
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Let's see-I had the first SuperGlide (boat-tail), first year Softtail, First year rubbermount SuperGlide, a 78 LowRider, and now have a 2003 RK that I can ride whenever. I preferred the chain drive 4 speed with sprocket swaps best.
I was really expecting the Norge/Stelvio/Griso to vibrate much more than they do. It's really, for me, a non issue. I'm very fond of the MG feel.
Like I said, it seems my Tunnderbird 1600 (2010) felt much more like any of my HD bikes that my Norge.
Regardless, I like them all!
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HDs are to the US as Guzzis are to Europe. Guzzi always has always designed for the European market because it is a European company. How many models since the first V 700 came out never made it to the US?
HD created a genre much the same way Nike has done with athletic shoes. I know a lot lot more about athletic shoes and can say with certainty that 90% of what Nike makes are sub standard designs and even worse substandard manufacturing.( I am not saying that HDs are the MC equivalent of Nike shoes). My experience with HDs goes back to the AMF days and anybody and just about everybody over the age of 40 knows what AMF MCs were like. That last shovel head (Super Glide) I bought new in 72 sent me to Italy in 73. So my roots have long been firmly planted in Italian bikes.
I have noticed that HD is doing an awful lot of advertising on what little TV I watch (mostly end of year football bowl games and full time basketball nut job). They push what got them there and as long as the profit margin and stock price is good they will continue. A good business model is a good business model. But are the years are catching up with them? I wonder if the "Millennium" generation will be buying the HD brand. Just saying....nothing bad about Harley (except I would never own one again after AMF :cry: )
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Let's see-I had the first SuperGlide (boat-tail),
Regardless, I like them all!
Wow someone who a 71 version Super Glide and you liked it? I bought the 72 Super Glide, virtually identical except for body work to 71 and it was truly (to quote Ralph Nader) dangerous at any speed. 12K miles in one year and it was gone and replaced with a Ducati V twin.... the anthesis of the 72 Super Glide.
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Let's see-I had the first SuperGlide (boat-tail), first year Softtail, First year rubbermount SuperGlide, a 78 LowRider, and now have a 2003 RK that I can ride whenever. I preferred the chain drive 4 speed with sprocket swaps best.
<snip>
Like I said, it seems my Tunnderbird 1600 (2010) felt much more like any of my HD bikes that my Norge.
Regardless, I like them all!
All BT's, a Sportster motor might surprise you a bit then on its greater similarity to a 2V Guzzi.
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I also find it interesting that a lot of people who don't like Harleys gave them up before I was in grade school. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
But the machines they had experience with are in many ways nothing like the machines that were available when I started riding or what is available today.
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Kinda like another view of what Buell could have done if allowed to.
:1:
I'd ride one.
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Ask Stormtruck who put a ~600 miles on it this summer over a short weekend, or Bill whom he chased while on his Griso.
I think both were surprised by it.
I've ridden this Sporty, and was surprised by it. The rider is well insulated from the rubber mounted engine's vibration. The engine performance was what I expected; more relaxed than a Guzzi, nice low end torque. As Kev mentioned early, torque and power peak are both about 1,000 RPM sooner than the V7. Handling and braking were better than expected, but, as Kev stated, this bike has been upgraded in both regards. Overall, it is a nice package.
It's too bad that The Motor Company is so focused on "Low" and forward controls, and no longer sells the XL1200R (Roadster, which is, essentially, what Kev built is into). The last time I walked around the showroom of our local HD store, all but one of the Sportsters on the floor had forward controls, and most of them were the "Low" models. I can't blame them though, as ,that is what sells in this country.
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I also find it interesting that a lot of people who don't like Harleys gave them up before I was in grade school. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
But the machines they had experience with are in many ways nothing like the machines that were available when I started riding or what is available today.
I'm one of those who gave up on HD in 73 after owning a 62 Duo Glide (used) and then a new 72 AMF Super Glide. I will save the treatise on what was wrong with the bike (everything). The only thing good about it was I traded it straight up for a new 73 Ducati 750 GT to a small town Berliner dealer. AMF sold Harley back later in the 70's and how long did it take to recover? After that they never built a bike I was interested in much less wanted to pay a premium price for owning an HD.
As for their reliablity and the well advertised "loyalty" this from Motely Fool the online investing mag in (Feb. 2014) uses Consumer Reports reviews of "customer satisfaction" based on problems to determine if HOG is worth investing is interesting. "Titled Is Harley-Davidson the Worst Motorcycle Money Can Buy?No. But Consumer Reports says it's darn close to it." Note CR is not rating the motorcycles. They are going to the consumers and asking them what they thought of their reliability.
"Long a recognized authority on automotive quality and value for your money in cars, Consumer Reports began branching out to reviewing motorcycles last year, publishing its first-ever report on the most reliable motorcycles from five of the biggest brands -- Harley, BMW (NASDAQOTH:BAMXY), Honda (NYSE:HMC), Kawasaki, and Yamaha. (Polaris' (NYSE:PII) Victory and Indian brands had apparently not made enough of a dent in the market to attract CR's attention by the time of the survey.) What CR discovered from its research is that quality varies "significantly" among brands -- and the best brand, Yamaha, is about six times more reliable than the worst, BMW.
"Only about one Yamaha bike in 10 has experienced a major problem or required a serious repair over the past four years, according to the 4,424 motorcycle owners surveyed by CR. In contrast, about one BMW motorcycle in three has suffered from such a complaint -- and one Harley in four. Here's how the numbers break down:"
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t652/redrider901/percentage-of-bikes-with-problems_large_zpslu40ojp8.jpg)
Motely Fool continues "Subtler variations in vehicle reliability were found within brands as well. CR categorized them according to "class" of motorcycle, noting that touring motorcycles were most problematic, and cruisers the least. This may have something to do with the fact that, according to CR, "accessories" were the most common problems encountered with bikes. Touring bikes, being designed for comfort in long-distance travel, are likely to be outfitted with more bells and whistles than a standard motorcycle -- and therefore have more accessories on them that can break.
Again, the numbers:"
[URL=http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/redrider901/media/problems-by-class_large_zpscl7zy7o8.jpg.html](http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t652/redrider901/problems-by-class_large_zpscl7zy7o8.jpg)
And this is what I find interesting. Kind of pops the ballon that people who have not experienced Harley have no right criticizing them. Seems that HD riders are the most loyal of all no matter their reliability is 2nd to last.
Again from the Motley Fool article
"That last fact, the low cost of repairing most motorcycle fix-its, may be the really important news for Harley-Davidson shareholders.
It may help to explain why -- Harley's weak performance on the surveynotwithstandi ng -- CR says Harley owners remain the most brand-loyal of all motorcycle owners, with an astounding 75% saying yes, they'd buy a Harley again.
In turn, the remarkable brand loyalty of Harley-Davidson customers may help to explain why, of the publicly traded motorcycle makers on the survey, Harley carries the highest price-to-earnings ratio, selling for nearly 20 times trailing earnings. Whether that P/E ratio can bear the scrutiny now that Consumer Reports has put a bull's-eye on Harley-Davidson, though, remains to be seen."
By far the biggest surprise for me is that BMW came in last in reliability. So much for Air Heads being smart. :grin:
(http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/redrider901/media/percentage-of-bikes-with-problems_large_zpslu40ojp8.jpg.html)
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Big thumbs-down for Consumer Reports.
Does anyone really pay attention to them, anymore ?
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Everything. :popcorn:
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Everything. :popcorn:
¿Qué?
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Established fact?
But again, when true, it's not an issue. It's not as black and white as many seem to want to believe.
Um, Kev...defend the brand all you want, but you can't argue with physics. Block the airflow to a cylinder and it's gotta run hotter than one in the airstream. It evidently was both an established fact AND an issue enough for H-D to develop this "feature"....
From Popular Mechanics, 2012....
Harley-Davidson's air-cooled V-Twin remains a stubbornly anachronistic signature of the American motorcycle manufacturer, and its most potent expression comes in the form of the 110 cubic inch (1,803cc) Screamin' Eagle lump currently found in the CVO lineup. Producing 122 lb-ft of torque, this is the most powerful Harley engine to date; as such, an oil cooler can only go so in protecting this puppy from soaring temps.
How does Harley keep this mill from melting when mercury hits triple digits? One feature engineered into air-cooled Harley engines is a function called Rear Cylinder Cutout. Because the aft cylinder tends to run warmer since it doesn't benefit from the airflow that hits the front cylinder, RCC seeks to equalize the difference by shutting off fuel and spark to the back cylinder if the engine idles for more than 3 seconds above 288° F. Once the air-only mix drops the combustion chamber temperature to 275° F, normal operation resumes. RCC was introduced in 2008, and was actuated by a cable before the 2009 model year, when throttle-by-wire technology was introduced.
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I thought that was a rider comfort feature.
if the bike is idling in traffic, no air is passing over the front cylinder, either.
But, the front cylinder is not being straddled by the rider, so it's not as big an issue.
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I'm one of those who gave up on HD in 73 after owning a 62 Duo Glide (used) and then a new 72 AMF Super Glide. I will save the treatise on what was wrong with the bike (everything). The only thing good about it was I traded it straight up for a new 73 Ducati 750 GT to a small town Berliner dealer. AMF sold Harley back later in the 70's and how long did it take to recover? After that they never built a bike I was interested in much less wanted to pay a premium price for owning an HD.
As for their reliablity and the well advertised "loyalty" this from Motely Fool the online investing mag in (Feb. 2014) uses Consumer Reports reviews of "customer satisfaction" based on problems to determine if HOG is worth investing is interesting. "Titled Is Harley-Davidson the Worst Motorcycle Money Can Buy?No. But Consumer Reports says it's darn close to it." Note CR is not rating the motorcycles. They are going to the consumers and asking them what they thought of their reliability.
"Long a recognized authority on automotive quality and value for your money in cars, Consumer Reports began branching out to reviewing motorcycles last year, publishing its first-ever report on the most reliable motorcycles from five of the biggest brands -- Harley, BMW (NASDAQOTH:BAMXY), Honda (NYSE:HMC), Kawasaki, and Yamaha. (Polaris' (NYSE:PII) Victory and Indian brands had apparently not made enough of a dent in the market to attract CR's attention by the time of the survey.) What CR discovered from its research is that quality varies "significantly" among brands -- and the best brand, Yamaha, is about six times more reliable than the worst, BMW.
"Only about one Yamaha bike in 10 has experienced a major problem or required a serious repair over the past four years, according to the 4,424 motorcycle owners surveyed by CR. In contrast, about one BMW motorcycle in three has suffered from such a complaint -- and one Harley in four. Here's how the numbers break down:"
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t652/redrider901/percentage-of-bikes-with-problems_large_zpslu40ojp8.jpg)
Motely Fool continues "Subtler variations in vehicle reliability were found within brands as well. CR categorized them according to "class" of motorcycle, noting that touring motorcycles were most problematic, and cruisers the least. This may have something to do with the fact that, according to CR, "accessories" were the most common problems encountered with bikes. Touring bikes, being designed for comfort in long-distance travel, are likely to be outfitted with more bells and whistles than a standard motorcycle -- and therefore have more accessories on them that can break.
Again, the numbers:"
[URL=http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/redrider901/media/problems-by-class_large_zpscl7zy7o8.jpg.html](http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t652/redrider901/problems-by-class_large_zpscl7zy7o8.jpg)
And this is what I find interesting. Kind of pops the ballon that people who have not experienced Harley have no right criticizing them. Seems that HD riders are the most loyal of all no matter their reliability is 2nd to last.
Again from the Motley Fool article
"That last fact, the low cost of repairing most motorcycle fix-its, may be the really important news for Harley-Davidson shareholders.
It may help to explain why -- Harley's weak performance on the surveynotwithstandi ng -- CR says Harley owners remain the most brand-loyal of all motorcycle owners, with an astounding 75% saying yes, they'd buy a Harley again.
In turn, the remarkable brand loyalty of Harley-Davidson customers may help to explain why, of the publicly traded motorcycle makers on the survey, Harley carries the highest price-to-earnings ratio, selling for nearly 20 times trailing earnings. Whether that P/E ratio can bear the scrutiny now that Consumer Reports has put a bull's-eye on Harley-Davidson, though, remains to be seen."
By far the biggest surprise for me is that BMW came in last in reliability. So much for Air Heads being smart. :grin:
(http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/redrider901/media/percentage-of-bikes-with-problems_large_zpslu40ojp8.jpg.html)
Never had even ONE issue with Yamaha. How about that 5 year unlimited mileage warranty! :boozing:
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Big thumbs-down for Consumer Reports.
Does anyone really pay attention to them, anymore ?
Rocker,
I am curious as to your comment. After all CR was not testing the bikes and then making a recommendation. They went to over 4000 bike owners and asked them their experience with the make and models and then posted the numbers as statistics. So besides your bias against CR (BTW I do not read them except for the reliability survey when I bought a new car in 2011) what is your argument against the Motely Fool Article as well as the finding of CR review of reliability. CR has an excellent track record with mapping reliability of automobiles.
I should have posted the URL http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/02/17/is-harley-davidson-the-worst-motorcycle-money-can.aspx
This was not a motorcycle article but an investment article using consumer reviews of their purchases and reliability of their motorcycles and then making a judgement call on whether "HOG" is a good investment. Back around 2004 I had a small amount of money to put in the market.
A friend's father was an investment broker and he recommend HOG. I disagreed as I thought that Harley could not sustain the numbers so I did not buy the stock and glad I did not. You might buy their bike buy would you invest your retirement in their stock?
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Rocker,
I am curious as to your comment. After all CR was not testing the bikes and then making a recommendation. They went to over 4000 bike owners and asked them their experience with the make and models and then posted the numbers as statistics. So besides your bias against CR (BTW I do not read them except for the reliability survey when I bought a new car in 2011) what is your argument against the Motely Fool Article?
Consumer reports samples a very small number of people who may or may not represent the majority of owners. The small sample size and the fact that certain types of people do (and don't) respond to surveys (in general) makes the conclusions suspect, IMNSHO.
Did you buy a Toyota in 2011 ?? It's usually the Toyota owners who go on and on about CR.
I should have posted the URL http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/02/17/is-harley-davidson-the-worst-motorcycle-money-can.aspx
This was not a motorcycle article but an investment article using consumer reviews of their purchases and reliability of their motorcycles and then making a judgement call on whether "HOG" is a good investment. Back around 2004 I had a small amount of money to put in the market.
A friend's father was an investment broker and he recommend HOG. I disagreed as I thought that Harley could not sustain the numbers so I did not buy the stock and glad I did not. You might buy their bike buy would you invest your retirement in their stock?
Investors on the street don't give a damn about a big corporation's product. They only care about stock performance today, and in the future. Sad, but true. They're buying the stock and may not know anything about the company's product. Harley Davidson is a pretty strong American company with a very well known product and image. That's all most people will care about.
in 1988 a smart guy who was getting ready to dump a lot of money into the market told me he'd never invest in HD stock (it was trading at $9 and something). Smart guy, huh? Huge missed opportunity for him. Basing a stock buying decision off a Consumer Reports customer satisfaction survey seems wonky to me. But that's just me. And I do understand that there's more than one way to skin a cat on Wall Street...
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This seems amusing , seems even HD calls the rear cylinder cut out ...
PARADE MODE
:laugh:
Dusty
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Did you buy a Toyota in 2011 ?? It's usually the Toyota owners who go on and on about CR.
Investors on the street don't give a damn about a big corporation's product. They only care about stock performance today, and in the future. Sad, but true. They're buying the stock and may not know anything about the company's product. in 1988 a smart guy told me he'd never invest in HD stock (it was trading at $9 and something). Smart guy, huh?
Basing a stock buying decision off a Consumer Reports customer satisfaction survey seems wonky to me. But that's just me. And I do understand that there's more than one way to skin a cat.
You are a funny guy. I am not going on and on about CR. The article was from Motley Fool and they used CR as the source for MC reliability. I have never owned a Toyota ( me thinks you really meant Prius :grin: ) Motley Fool used CR as source material for the article and CRs finding to discuss HOG's future so it stands to reason that if I was going to use Motley Fool I had to include CR source material otherwise what's the point of me quoting Motley Fool?
Well HOG was trading at $8.33 as recently as 2010 so your friend was not so wrong. HOG peaked with the housing boom and the baby boom and busted with the housing boom. Their stock price is now down 34% in the last 2 years. Toys are the first thing to go when a recession hits. That and eating out.
So you own their bike but would you buy their stock? Is HOG going to continue to grow enough to see stock growth. But Polaris has really tanked in the same time. But they sell more toys than just motorcycles.
I think Harley has managed to prop up their market share but the competition is bitting at their heels. Guzzi isn't going to touch them but with the resurgence of Victory and Indian which was not included in that survey because they were to0 new to the market it remains to be seen how Harley fairs the competition.
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Red, CR reports (or JD powers) have always been full of homes based on the nature of their samples. They don't quantify whether the complaint is a flaking piece of chrome or a failed oil pump, an intermittent grated grip or failed driveshaft. Did their report at least quantify failures in terms of number by reported mileage?
That's not to say there may not be a trend of truthfulness to them, but I don't think the reports show the full picture. Certainly not from my experience.
George, you haven't established a fact yet or addressed my reports of cases to the contrary, nor my recommendations why it's not all about the air stream.
Not to mention the "feature" in question is for IDLE ONLY, where there is no airflow. The reason they chose the rear cylinder is simply that's the one closest to the rider. If they put the motor behind the rider then they'd have deactivated the front cylinder for the same reason.
Again, science has taught us again and again that you can't simply accept assumptions based on what you think is common sense because reality often includes factors you didn't think of.
I would concede only that it is true much of the time and for many circumstances, but that variances in frame design, tuning, and ambient conditions generally mitigate it to a non-issue (a small difference when present) and that it is wrong to assume the rear cylinder temp will always be higher, because it is fact that sometimes it's not. I've seen that with my own eyes and I'm not alone.
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Back around 2004 I had a small amount of money to put in the market.
A friend's father was an investment broker and he recommend HOG. I disagreed as I thought that Harley could not sustain the numbers so I did not buy the stock and glad I did not. You might buy their bike buy would you invest your retirement in their stock?
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but wouldn't it have been a good investment in 04, as long as you sold before the market crash? And hell, it would definitely have been a good investment anytime from the 90's till then.
Some friends of ours paid for their Harleys using profit from stock purchases they made that time frame.
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Red, I'll add that there were many times in the past two decades I wished I could have bought stock in HD, but right now I wouldn't. Well, I might in the next few years, I'm waiting to see how low it goes and what prospects I believe they have.
That said, I will never forgive my company financial advisor who refused to let me sell $10k of mutual funds and buy Ford shares during the crash when they reached $1. Ugh. Long story, but still hurts when I think about it.
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Red, CR reports (or JD powers) have always been full of homes based on the nature of their samples. They don't quantify whether the complaint is a flaking piece of chrome or a failed oil pump, an intermittent grated grip or failed driveshaft. Did their report at least quantify failures in terms of number by reported mileage?
Kev,
I'll quote the article again. It was in my original post. They DID quantify whether the complaint was serious. In fact that was the whole point of the survey.
" Only about one Yamaha bike in 10 has experienced a major problem or required a serious repair over the past four years, according to the 4,424 motorcycle owners surveyed by CR. In contrast, about one BMW motorcycle in three has suffered from such a complaint -- and one Harley in four.
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So we should all be riding Yamahas ?
Dusty
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Kev,
I'll quote the article again. It was in my original post. They DID quantify whether the complaint was serious. In fact that was the whole point of the survey.
" Only about one Yamaha bike in 10 has experienced a major problem or required a serious repair over the past four years, according to the 4,424 motorcycle owners surveyed by CR. In contrast, about one BMW motorcycle in three has suffered from such a complaint -- and one Harley in four.
So what's their definition of serious?
And how many miles travelled total on the Yamahas surveyed vs. Harleys vs. BMWs?
I see a LOT fewer Yamahas in my travels than either of the other brands and and though Harleys may have their share of garage queens they also have a large number of road warriors similar to BMWs reputation for customers that eat up the miles.
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Pitt bulls have nothing on some of us :evil:
Dusty
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How many of the 4400 respondents owned Yamahas ?
It would be interesting to know the breakdown of the 4400 respondents
The total of 4400 respondents giving feedback for the USA motorcycle market really makes me laugh.
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So we should all be riding Yamahas ?
Dusty
:thumb: Yep I going looking this weekend based solely on CR reviews. :grin: :grin:
But actually CR change the game in 2015 and looked at bikes differently.
From an up to date Motley Fool article so now I decided to go look at Victory's instead of Yamaha's. :grin: (I do own a Yamaha generator)
Really just kidding. Only way to part with my Goose is to pry my cold dead hand from the brake handle after I T-bone some bonehead. :laugh:
"What's Consumer Reports been up to lately?
In a pilot project, CR began rating motorcycle brands for both reliability and consumer satisfaction (i.e., whether they'd buy one again) in 2013. Last year, we took a quick look at the reliability stats and were somewhat surprised to see that Harley-Davidson was rated not the worst motorcycle manufacturer in the world, necessarily -- but the second worst.
Today, we're going to flip the page and take a look at what Consumer Reports has been saying about Harley (and its rivals) in the consumer satisfaction department. Here's how the "top five" rankings for 2015 shake out.
Harley-Davidson comes in No. 2 in this race. Harley holds a slight lead over Honda (NYSE:HMC) and has a bigger buffer between it and BMW and Can-Am (a division of Bombardier). But Harley still lags Victory motorcycles by a pretty significant margin.
Victory, incidentally, is a brand owned by ATV and snowmobile specialist Polaris Industries (NYSE:PII). And out of all the motorcycle brands surveyed by CR, it comes out tops, winning the magazine's top marks in the categories of "owner satisfaction," styling," "acceleration," "handling," "comfort," and "fun." In fact, the only survey category where this Polaris subsidiary failed to win CR's coveted "bull's-eye" rating was "cost of maintenance and repair."
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How many of the 4400 respondents owned Yamahas ?
It would be interesting to know the breakdown of the 4400 respondents
The total of 4400 respondents giving feedback for the USA motorcycle market really makes me laugh.
Out of curiosity I just looked and CR posted the whole article online. The latest article had 12,000 bikes.
From CR http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2015/05/motorcycle-reliability-and-owner-satisfaction/index.htm
"Our survey of subscribers who reported on more than 12,300 motorcycles from model years 2008 to 2014 also showed that bike categories have differing levels of reliability. For this analysis, we adjusted for mileage driven over a 12-month period and estimated repair rates for 4-year-old models without a service contract".
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Red, that's interesting from a number of different views.
For one, every experience I've had or heard about with Victory has been positive. It seems like the bikes are really well built.
That said, they are HIGHLY under-represented in the marketplace, almost to the level of Guzzi.
So statistically it does make you wonder about the data.
Personally I would consider a Victory in a heartbeat if they just made a model that wasn't so FRIGGIN UGLY!
The Judge came real close, then they changed it to forward controls and lost me, then they renamed it.
And ironically, just like Harley, their baggers have more ground clearance than their smaller/lighter models like the Judge.
So I was grinding footpegs on the Judge which also sorta took it out of consideration, while the floorboards on the Cross Country or Cross Tour or whatever were fine. But then the bags and the turn signals and even the floorboards on the touring models look horrible.
Enter Indian, but their tourers though so much better looking are behemoths.
Now here's the real irony. In many dimensions the RK is the "smaller" bike when looking at Victory, Indian, and even Guzzi tourers (the Cali having a weight advantage over the RK, but it's still physically bigger/longer).
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Pitt bulls have nothing on some of us :evil:
Dusty
I prefer to think of myself as a border collie.
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You are a funny guy.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/8e/e1/18/8ee1188989251e7c648d74a5d2608015.jpg)
I am not going on and on about CR.
I never said you were. :wink:
I have never owned a Toyota
your stock has just gone up. :thumb:
The article was from Motley Fool and they used CR as the source for MC reliability. Motley Fool used CR as source material for the article and CRs finding to discuss HOG's future so it stands to reason that if I was going to use Motley Fool I had to include CR source material otherwise what's the point of me quoting Motley Fool?
Motley who? No, really.
Well HOG was trading at $8.33 as recently as 2010 so your friend was not so wrong. HOG peaked with the housing boom and the baby boom and busted with the housing boom. Their stock price is now down 34% in the last 2 years. Toys are the first thing to go when a recession hits. That and eating out.
Stocks are bought and sold. Sold and bought. What was HOG's high in the 2006/2007 time frame? Yes, lots of people made lots of money on that stock.
So you own their bike but would you buy their stock? Is HOG going to continue to grow enough to see stock growth. But Polaris has really tanked in the same time. But they sell more toys than just motorcycles.
No. I don't own an HD. Honestly, I haven't been keeping up with the stock over the past few years. I don't own their stock, either. That's not to say I wouldn't, or I won't. I have and I might.
Just like any consumer product over the past 60-years, HD has relied heavily on the baby-boomers for support. HD has to dramatically broaden their demographic if they want to survive. The baby-boomers are beginning to age-out, as we're well aware in the Guzzi community. There are indications that HD is broadening their demographic, but time will tell. Personally, I think they will adapt and persevere.
Harley holds a special place in the market. The patriotic one. That helps them perform on the showroom and in the stock market differently from an appliance company. Personally, if the stock went any lower over the next six-months, I'd be inclined to buy. It may not have as much up-side as it did in the '90s and '00s, but it's cheap and has plenty of room to move.
I think Harley has managed to prop up their market share but the competition is bitting at their heels. Guzzi isn't going to touch them but with the resurgence of Victory and Indian which was not included in that survey because they were to0 new to the market it remains to be seen how Harley fairs the competition.
"Prop up their market share"? what do you mean?
"Competition biting at their heels"? in what meaningful way?
My opinion on Victory and Indian is that they will take sales from both HD and from the Asians. I don't think they'll be a real threat to either, as far as market share goes, over the next few years, but they will be growing by taking disaffected customers from all the cruiser OEMs.
Harley and Honda are the two monsters in the USA streetbike market. I don't see that changing anytime soon.
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From Popular Mechanics, 2012....
Harley-Davidson's air-cooled V-Twin remains a stubbornly anachronistic signature of the American motorcycle manufacturer, and its most potent expression comes in the form of the 110 cubic inch (1,803cc) Screamin' Eagle lump currently found in the CVO lineup. Producing 122 lb-ft of torque, this is the most powerful Harley engine to date; as such, an oil cooler can only go so in protecting this puppy from soaring temps.
How does Harley keep this mill from melting when mercury hits triple digits? One feature engineered into air-cooled Harley engines is a function called Rear Cylinder Cutout. Because the aft cylinder tends to run warmer since it doesn't benefit from the airflow that hits the front cylinder, RCC seeks to equalize the difference by shutting off fuel and spark to the back cylinder if the engine idles for more than 3 seconds above 288� F. Once the air-only mix drops the combustion chamber temperature to 275� F, normal operation resumes. RCC was introduced in 2008, and was actuated by a cable before the 2009 model year, when throttle-by-wire technology was introduced.
Some dramatic editorial tongue flapping.... " stubbornly anachronistic....Sc reamin Eagle lump.....puppy...." And then says the front cylinder gets no air flow.....but the cylinder cut out only operates after 3 minutes of idling above 288F head temperature.....And the airflow when stationary at idle is ?
Great reporting...
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Great reporting...
Only the best at Popular Mechanics!
(https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/UiHkF6aL5ulX_ZK4bMHBKXI9So8=/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/2423658/popmechcover-0191.0.jpg)
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(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t652/redrider901/HOG-Article-Image-1-website-version_zpsnov5hisi.png) (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/redrider901/media/HOG-Article-Image-1-website-version_zpsnov5hisi.png.html)
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(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t652/redrider901/HOG-Article-Image-1-website-version_zpsnov5hisi.png)
(http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/redrider901/media/HOG-Article-Image-1-website-version_zpsnov5hisi.png.html)
That must be the "over 800cc streetbike" pie chart.
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Regarding HD's parade mode, or RCC, if the rider wants that staggered idle it can be defeated by rolling the twistgrip forward at a stop. At least that's what the manual says for the 2014 Street Glide I rode. The RCC kicked in even during the cold weather I was riding in so maybe that's how the newer bikes operate. I didn't mind. There wasn't a hiccup or glitch anywhere in the powerband nor did the RCC intrude on stoplight takeoffs.
Tobit.
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So we should all be riding Yamahas ?
Dusty
If you don't want to worry about breakdowns with minimal maintenance, yes.
03 FJR - zero problems
05 Royal Star - zero problem
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So what's their definition of serious?
And how many miles travelled total on the Yamahas surveyed vs. Harleys vs. BMWs?
I see a LOT fewer Yamahas in my travels than either of the other brands and and though Harleys may have their share of garage queens they also have a large number of road warriors similar to BMWs reputation for customers that eat up the miles.
The last version of the Royal Star is good engine wise for 250,000 miles without any rebuild. The V-max motor was and still is the best Yamaha has ever offered. Liquid cooled V4. :boozing:
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I prefer to think of myself as a border collie.
High maintenance. :popcorn:
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Regarding HD's parade mode, or RCC, if the rider wants that staggered idle it can be defeated by rolling the twistgrip forward at a stop.
There's also a setup that lets you choose not to ever go into that mode, at least from what I've read.
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I really didn't expect you to concede anything, even when faced with the fact of the matter. And no, the real reason they chose the rear cylinder is because it probably gets 15-20 degrees hotter than the front cylinder when at idle. If the rear is in normal temperature operating range, why shut it down at all? There have been times when the front cylinder is at 275-280 degrees and the rear is at 290. You're going to shut the cylinder that is hot enough to risk engine damage, not the other one. And before you ask where I got my temperature numbers and that I don't have any proof of what I am saying, blah, blah, those numbers came from my experience as a motor officer with knowledge of what traffic duty and parades was doing to my engine. I had more than a few discussions with dealers and even the H-D offices in Milwaukee in the years before they produced 'parade mode' bikes. In those years they recommended the electric cooling fans to prevent engine damage from heat, and they specifically mentioned it was for the rear cylinder especially.
Red, CR reports (or JD powers) have always been full of homes based on the nature of their samples. They don't quantify whether the complaint is a flaking piece of chrome or a failed oil pump, an intermittent grated grip or failed driveshaft. Did their report at least quantify failures in terms of number by reported mileage?
That's not to say there may not be a trend of truthfulness to them, but I don't think the reports show the full picture. Certainly not from my experience.
George, you haven't established a fact yet or addressed my reports of days to the contrary, nor my recommendations why it's not all about the air stream.
Not to mention the "feature" in question is for IDLE ONLY, where there is no airflow. The reason they chose the rear cylinder is simply that's the one closest to the rider. If they put the motor behind the rider then they'd have deactivated the front cylinder for the same reason.
Again, science has taught us again and again that you can't simply accept assumptions based on what you think is common sense because reality often includes factors you didn't think of.
I would concede only that it is true much of the time and for many circumstances, but that variances in frame design, tuning, and ambient conditions generally mitigate it to a non-issue (a small difference when present) and that it is wrong to assume the rear cylinder temp will always be higher, because it is fact that sometimes it's not. I've seen that with my own eyes and I'm not alone.
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I really didn't expect you to concede anything, even when faced with the fact of the matter. And no, the real reason they chose the rear cylinder is because it probably gets 15-20 degrees hotter than the front cylinder when at idle. If the rear is in normal temperature operating range, why shut it down at all? There have been times when the front cylinder is at 275-280 degrees and the rear is at 290. You're going to shut the cylinder that is hot enough to risk engine damage, not the other one. And before you ask where I got my temperature numbers and that I don't have any proof of what I am saying, blah, blah, those numbers came from my experience as a motor officer with knowledge of what traffic duty and parades was doing to my engine. I had more than a few discussions with dealers and even the H-D offices in Milwaukee in the years before they produced 'parade mode' bikes. In those years they recommended the electric cooling fans to prevent engine damage from heat, and they specifically mentioned it was for the rear cylinder especially.
I'm not facing any "facts" from you. I'm just ignoring your rote statements of the matter as fact without any support as much as you're ignoring my statements of experience. Thing if I'm not saying it isn't sometimes or even often true. From the start I've said it's not always or automatically true. So it takes only a few instances where it is not to disprove the universality of the generalization. It's much harder to prove the ultimate truth of an absolute.
And again you're referencing sitting and idling.... Which is not considered "normal" operation, even if that happens in fleet motor cop service.
And I'd love to know how the HD techs (I've worked with many since the 90's) knew the differences in front and rear head temps, especially since I'm pretty sure there was only one head temp sensor and little to know data logging going on especially in the early systems before parade mode.
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High maintenance. :popcorn:
Extremely smart, fast, agile, women love them, more intelligent than humans
I've had 3 and am looking for one now.
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RPMs
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That must be the "over 800cc streetbike" pie chart.
I believe it was usually reported as the over 650cc street bike segment, unless that's changed or unless that varies with who is reporting.
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You can't really compare the two.
For me the HD air cooled motors are just something of an anachronism. They look and sound pretty, and that has got them by, without having to actually compete with more modern engines. If that's your thing, then great - and I'd love an old one. But I would never spend my money on a new one - for me, it's just not a good enough motor. The power it produces is pretty poor for its capacity. And every HD I've ridden just feels like it runs out of puff as soon as it gets going.
The Guzzi is still a lump of some character, and delivers for those who like a motor with plenty of torque at moderate rpm. But it's also a practical powerplant for a real world motorcycle. I ride my Guzzi pretty much every day - rain or shine. It's not a toy - it's how I travel. It's a tool - and it does its job, with some style.
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I keep reading comments about the money they cost.
2016 Iron 883 $8849
2016 1200 Custom $10,889
2016 48 (1200cc Bobber) $11,199
2016 1200LT (touring w/shield and bags) $11,799
2016 Dyna Street Bob $13,699
2016 Dyna Low Rider $14,399
2016 Dyna Fat Bob $15,899
2016 Dyna Switchback (Touring model with shield and bags) $17,199
ABS/security systems (and I believe keyless ignition) add about $1k to those prices, but freight and prep is generally highly negotiable.
Those prices sure sound competitive to me, especially when comparing to the V7 and Cali 1400 line respectively.
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Exactly! Why would anyone buy a Chevy, when they could buy an Alfa?? But that's what happens here in the M/C market. :undecided:
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Kev, let me give you the real reason that guys my age don't care for Harley's. When I was in my teens and twenties, if I parked my Suzuki in a bar's parking lot, 1%.s would break it and beat me up. If I dared to show up at an ABATE ride, I was forced to the the back and invited to "just go home." Despite being hated by most of polite society, I was also rejected by these elitist a-holes because I didn't conform to their Harley paradigm. I worked through it, but never forgot how these guys behaved. When I see the Nuova Harley riders glorify the jerks that mistreated folks like me, it just makes me bow up. I have no interest in "the Motor Company" because I can't forget how poorly their riders treated me when I was trying to fit in. I'm sure Harley produces a good and modern product...but I find myself unimpressed.
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Unlike the Harley riders, you know, The rugged individuals that all look alike. Most of the MG riders I know actually ride their bikes and not just pose after a hard twenty min. ride to the bar. MG have soul and the owners have a great love affair, for the most part, with their bikes. Many MGs have high mileage and great stories about their travels. The Harley Davidson group, for the most part, ride an image and not a passion.
I have owned many bikes, but after owning several MGs starting with the 750 Ambassador in '71, the MG has a permanent place in my heart.
Besides, I don't own a pair of assless pants and/or a bandana.
$.02
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You're obviously just an argumentative person, even arguing things that weren't even said by me. I never commented on nor made a distinction with regard to 'normal operation'- whatever you identify that as - as opposed to idling. My comment was on temperatures. Period. What difference does it make how those temperatures get there? But they do get there and it's not good for the engine, which is why H-D addressed it. I even specifically referenced police use which does mean quite a bit of slow speed and idling. Same as being in a traffic jam on a 'civilian' Harley.
Oh wait, you said you are choosing to ignore my statements. Which ones? Only ones that conflict with yours?
You have your experience, and I have mine. And obviously, H-D had similar or they wouldn't have addressed it with their "parade mode" feature.
I'm not facing any "facts" from you. I'm just ignoring your rote statements of the matter as fact without any support as much as you're ignoring my statements of experience. Thing if I'm not saying it isn't sometimes or even often true. From the start I've said it's not always or automatically true. So it takes only a few instances where it is not to disprove the universality of the generalization. It's much harder to prove the ultimate truth of an absolute.
And again you're referencing sitting and idling.... Which is not considered "normal" operation, even if that happens in fleet motor cop service.
And I'd love to know how the HD techs (I've worked with many since the 90's) knew the differences in front and rear head temps, especially since I'm pretty sure there was only one head temp sensor and little to know data logging going on especially in the early systems before parade mode.
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You made statements of absolutes.
I'm simply arguing against the absolutes.
Then you threw in some passive aggressive insults.
And no, I didn't say I was ignoring you. I said I was ignoring your claims of facts (with regards to the absoluteness) without support.
I've explained why Harley adopted the system, it wasn't a mechanical problem (I.E. causing harm to the bike), it was a problem for the rider under certain circumstances.
Though I'll admit it became a bigger issue as emissions standards tightened, motors grew in size, and the cooling strategies began to interfere with the riders under those conditions.
None of this proves your position of absoluteness.
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Very funny. smh.
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I just like them because they are quirky and different .... :popcorn:
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I keep reading comments about the money they cost.
2016 Iron 883 $8849
2016 1200 Custom $10,889
2016 48 (1200cc Bobber) $11,199
2016 1200LT (touring w/shield and bags) $11,799
2016 Dyna Street Bob $13,699
2016 Dyna Low Rider $14,399
2016 Dyna Fat Bob $15,899
2016 Dyna Switchback (Touring model with shield and bags) $17,199
ABS/security systems (and I believe keyless ignition) add about $1k to those prices, but freight and prep is generally highly negotiable.
Those prices sure sound competitive to me, especially when comparing to the V7 and Cali 1400 line respectively.
These are all entry level Harley's None of which can compete with the 1400 other than in a straight line for the first 100ft. I would imagine a new RK would set you back at least 20 grand, twice what a new cali could be got for. Hell if you shopped around now I bet you could get a v7 and a 14 custom for the cost of one RK. Over priced IMO.
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The way I see it in the real world is Harley and MG appeal to riders with a different set of needs for a bike...Comparisons always come down to the slow Harleys.....What is slow? The new 750 MG is very slow compared to many other contemporary 750's and not any faster than a 60's 650 Triumph. But in reality the bike is fun to ride and feels faster than the numbers say it is according to what the owners report.
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Kev, let me give you the real reason that guys my age don't care for Harley's. When I was in my teens and twenties, if I parked my Suzuki in a bar's parking lot, 1%.s would break it and beat me up. If I dared to show up at an ABATE ride, I was forced to the the back and invited to "just go home." Despite being hated by most of polite society, I was also rejected by these elitist a-holes because I didn't conform to their Harley paradigm. I worked through it, but never forgot how these guys behaved. When I see the Nuova Harley riders glorify the jerks that mistreated folks like me, it just makes me bow up. I have no interest in "the Motor Company" because I can't forget how poorly their riders treated me when I was trying to fit in. I'm sure Harley produces a good and modern product...but I find myself unimpressed.
I dunno. Seems a silly reason to shun a motorcycle. I mean, shun the people that's fine, but judge the cycle itself on its own merits. If you don't like it, then don't ride it. But those who constantly shyte on the bikes and their fans are actually just doing the same thing you're complaining about.
The way I see it in the real world is Harley and MG appeal to riders with a different set of needs for a bike...
Well certainly Harley just plain isn't building anything for the Norge, Griso, Stelvio crowd.
It's a shame, cause they could be - the Buells filled some of those needs very nicely.
The BUelysses was competitive to the Stelvio.
My S3T felt VERY similar to the Griso I rode, and had very similar performance numbers.
Hell the XR1200 was too.
09 XR1200 79 hp / 68 torques 12.25 1/4 mile, and especially with the XRX had the suspension, brakes, and handling to match!
...Comparisons always come down to the slow Harleys.....What is slow?
These comparisons by MG owners are even sillier
10 883L 48 hp / 48 torques 14.60 1/4 mile
09 V7C 39 hp / 36 torques 14.57 1/4 mile
13 V7R 39 hp / 41 torques 14.29 1/4 mile
11 Cali Black Eagle 68 hp / 58 torques 13.35 1/4 mile
07 1200N 57 hp / 64 torques 13.21 1/4 mile
11 Dyna Switchback 68 hp / 86 torques 13.66 1/4 mile
13 Cali 1400C 84 hp / 73 torques 13.3 1/4 mile
And lets remember, you're not getting more power out of a V7, and I don't suspect much is left on the table for a Cali. But Harleys are purposely restricted to get you to spend more on a pipes and an air-cleaner. You can expect a 10-20% increase in power on a Harley just by adding 50-STATE STREET LEGAL accessory pipes, an air-cleaner and a reflash. At least half of that benefit can come from the pipes ALONE. Yeah, that's a little despicable, but it works.
These are all entry level Harley's None of which can compete with the 1400 other than in a straight line for the first 100ft. I would imagine a new RK would set you back at least 20 grand, twice what a new cali could be got for. Hell if you shopped around now I bet you could get a v7 and a 14 custom for the cost of one RK. Over priced IMO.
No actually they are NOT ALL entry-level Harleys.
And no, as a matter of fact not only can they compete with a 1400 in a straight line, the Sportster will leave it behind STOCK in the 1/4 mile and I've convinced a number of Guzzi riders that a Sporty can handle by riding with me or riding my current Sporty.
The Switchback, and a Dyna Low Rider, and probably a Dyna Fat Bob will compete very well with a 1400.
And why are you comparing a Road King to a Cali Custom?
If you're going to compare apples-to-apples, at least compare the Road King to the Cali Touring.
2016 Road King - $18,749 (plus $1k for ABS/security) - $19,749
2016 Cali 1400T - $18,490
I'm not telling anyone to like a Harley if they don't, that's fine. Just be realistic about the facts.
People here keep forgetting that I love Guzzis too... I'm not coming at this with prejudice against either brand.
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My earlier post of "everything" was meant to convey that everything about a Guzzi is more attractive to me than a Harley. Further refinement of the statement hinges upon my like for standard, dual sport and Café style bikes of European lineage. I do not like cruisers. Period. No matter who makes them. Let me put it another way. I prefer Red Headed Women. Others do not.
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But Harleys are purposely restricted to get you to spend more on a pipes and an air-cleaner. You can expect a 10-20% increase in power on a Harley just by adding 50-STATE STREET LEGAL accessory pipes, an air-cleaner and a reflash. At least half of that benefit can come from the pipes ALONE. Yeah, that's a little despicable, but it works.
If you're going to compare apples-to-apples, at least compare the Road King to the Cali Touring.
2016 Road King - $18,749 (plus $1k for ABS/security) - $19,749
2016 Cali 1400T - $18,490
So if you are going to compare apples to apples then quote the Road King after you "spend more on a pipes and an air-cleaner". If HD is so good at taking care of their customers then it's fairly obvious setting up their bikes to purposefully require upgrades to increase power is a complete contradiction of that notion. And the amazing thing is 75% of HD owners are loyal to a company that detunes their bike at the factory so you drop and extra $1k or more to get it running like it should have right out of the crate. They are laughing all the way to the bank on that one.
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<So if you are going to compare apples to apples then quote the Road King after you "spend more on a pipes and an air-cleaner". If HD is so good at taking care of their customers then it's fairly obvious setting up their bikes to purposefully require upgrades to increase power is a complete contradiction of that notion. And the amazing thing is 75% of HD owners are loyal to a company that detunes their bike at the factory so you drop and extra $1k or more to get it running like it should have right out of the crate. They are laughing all the way to the bank on that one.>
Tuning on all brands is to meet Government regulation. I have spent a few bucks on my Stelvio to get it to run as I think it should.
Bob
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Tuning on all brands is to meet Government regulation. I have spent a few bucks on my Stelvio to get it to run as I think it should.
You may be right, Bob, but then how do the smaller displacement sport bikes from Japan, Italy, and Germany (etc.) put out 180 hp stock, and meet the regulations?
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You may be right, Bob, but then how do the smaller displacement sport bikes from Japan, Italy, and Germany (etc.) put out 180 hp stock, and meet the regulations?
State of the art engine designs with properly developed electronic management systems....How ever, some of the best have flaws in the power flow that fussy riders may try to tune away with aftermarket modifications...
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You may be right, Bob, but then how do the smaller displacement sport bikes from Japan, Italy, and Germany (etc.) put out 180 hp stock, and meet the regulations?
Getting those HP numbers and meeting regulations is a lot easier with a liquid cooled engine, but not with a air cooled engine like we all prefer.
Bob
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This a Guzzi Forum and all Harleys suck. So do Beemers.
:violent1: :violent1: :violent1: :violent1: :violent1: :violent1: :violent1: :violent1:
And looking at that leaking fuel line under the airbox on my EV, I am not terribly happy with Guzzi either.
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Getting those HP numbers and meeting regulations is a lot easier with a liquid cooled engine, but not with a air cooled engine like we all prefer.
Again, you have a good point, but the difference between Harley engines and 180 hp sport bikes is so enormous that I don't think the cooling type explains all of it. In fact there are air cooled motorcycles that meet government regulations and have much higher hp/cc numbers than Harley. The Griso is an example.
I don't mind that a US company is surviving in a very competitive market, and that they are likely to be getting income from selling accessory parts for new motorcycles they make. It's no different from car dealers selling expensive options on new cars.
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So if you are going to compare apples to apples then quote the Road King after you "spend more on a pipes and an air-cleaner".
Oy vey.
Did I compare the RK and Cali Touring on performance specs?
Ok, you add in the price of a new crossover pipe, a second set of tires (cause the Cali wears em out at 2x the rate), and at least one paid for valve adjustment vs. the RK with ABS/Security, and another grand for pipes and an AC.
We're at about 20.5k vs. 19.5k, with the RK being faster, but a slight handling edge to the Cali (assuming anyone wants to ride either of these beasts that aggressively).
Oh yeah, and if you want to sell or trade the RK you're WAY ahead cause that Cali is going to cost you THOUSANDS MORE in depreciation.
There ya go, apples-to-apples.
If HD is so good at taking care of their customers then it's fairly obvious setting up their bikes to purposefully require upgrades to increase power is a complete contradiction of that notion. And the amazing thing is 75% of HD owners are loyal to a company that detunes their bike at the factory so you drop and extra $1k or more to get it running like it should have right out of the crate. They are laughing all the way to the bank on that one.
Let's see my Breva 1100 was seen by Speakers, Pete, and Eraldo before I had to spend $1000+ with Guzzitech to get it to run without pinging.
And any flat-tapped 4V Carc is going to cost at least $1500 more for a roller conversion?
And as long as I've been here I've seen people bitching about the fueling on late-model bikes - Cali 1100s, smallblocks, CARCS... now I'm pretty darn happy with my V7, but my experiences with multiple Harley EFI bikes were that they ran fine from the factory and I didn't need to chase hp and a tuner. But I easily COULD if I wanted to.
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You may be right, Bob, but then how do the smaller displacement sport bikes from Japan, Italy, and Germany (etc.) put out 180 hp stock, and meet the regulations?
Different horses for different courses.
How do they get those #'s:
* Water Cooling
* DOHC
* Shim/tappet or Desmo Valve Adjustments
The Harley/Indian/Victory etc. crowd is looking for ease of maintenance. Change fluids and ride.
MOST of them aren't looking for that level of power.
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The EFI Harleys I've ridden over the past 8 or 9 years have all been flawless in their fueling.
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Potato potato potato potato
Guzzi Guzzi Guzzi Guzzi
Dusty
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In fact there are air cooled motorcycles that meet government regulations and have much higher hp/cc numbers than Harley. The Griso is an example.
06 Griso 1100 74 hp / 58 ft. lbs. torque 12.45 1/4 mile
09 XR1200 79 hp / 68 ft. lbs. torque 12.25 1/4 mile
09 Griso 1200 8V 95 hp / 71 ft. lbs. torque 11.51 1/4 mile
15 Griso 1200 8V 98 hp / 72 ft. lbs. torque 11.42 1/4 mile
The difference between the first two and the second two is the valve train (2V/Cylinder vs. 4V/cylinder).
COULD Harley do the same? Mostly likely, but their customers sadly aren't interested.
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06 Griso 1100 74 hp / 58 ft. lbs. torque 12.45 1/4 mile
09 XR1200 79 hp / 68 ft. lbs. torque 12.25 1/4 mile
09 Griso 1200 8V 95 hp / 71 ft. lbs. torque 11.51 1/4 mile
15 Griso 1200 8V 98 hp / 72 ft. lbs. torque 11.42 1/4 mile
The difference between the first two and the second two is the valve train (2V/Cylinder vs. 4V/cylinder).
COULD Harley do the same? Mostly likely, but their customers sadly aren't interested.
Potato
Dusty
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COULD Harley do the same? Mostly likely, but their customers sadly aren't interested.
Yup, Harley dealers with Buells didn't know what to do with them for the most part....And what happened to the water cooled high performance Harley a few years ago?
Harley has control of a huge niche market and they apparently happy to stay there...
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Again, you have a good point, but the difference between Harley engines and 180 hp sport bikes is so enormous that I don't think the cooling type explains all of it. In fact there are air cooled motorcycles that meet government regulations and have much higher hp/cc numbers than Harley. The Griso is an example.
I don't mind that a US company is surviving in a very competitive market, and that they are likely to be getting income from selling accessory parts for new motorcycles they make. It's no different from car dealers selling expensive options on new cars.
Their marketing and dealer network is second to none and that is reflected by the number of bikes sold.
Bob
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Yup, Harley dealers with Buells didn't know what to do with them for the most part....And what happened to the water cooled high performance Harley a few years ago?
Harley has control of a huge niche market and they apparently happy to stay there...
Who wouldn't be happy with 50% ?!?!?!
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Different horses for different courses.
How do they get those #'s:
* Water Cooling
* DOHC
* Shim/tappet or Desmo Valve Adjustments
The Harley/Indian/Victory etc. crowd is looking for ease of maintenance. Change fluids and ride.
MOST of them aren't looking for that level of power.
The point was that Harley appears to be holding back on performance to some extent, so they can make some money on performance enhancing accessories. I don't think anyone has presented a valid argument against that. I also have no problem with a marketing strategy that helps keep a company profitable in a competitive market. If one doesn't like it, one doesn't need to buy the product.
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Who wouldn't be happy with 50% ?!?!?!
Women.............. ...............
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<So if you are going to compare apples to apples then quote the Road King after you "spend more on a pipes and an air-cleaner". If HD is so good at taking care of their customers then it's fairly obvious setting up their bikes to purposefully require upgrades to increase power is a complete contradiction of that notion. And the amazing thing is 75% of HD owners are loyal to a company that detunes their bike at the factory so you drop and extra $1k or more to get it running like it should have right out of the crate. They are laughing all the way to the bank on that one.>
Tuning on all brands is to meet Government regulation. I have spent a few bucks on my Stelvio to get it to run as I think it should.
Bob
Seems to me if you read Kev's post he said that that is government regulations are not at issue here.
I will quote him again and where does this say anything about the EPA. This is about HD detuning their bikes to sell more aftermarket parts. Even Kev admits its "despicable, but it works". I think he is talking about the HD detuning their machines to sell more stuff.
Read it and weep.
" But Harleys are purposely restricted to get you to spend more on a pipes and an air-cleaner. You can expect a 10-20% increase in power on a Harley just by adding 50-STATE STREET LEGAL accessory pipes, an air-cleaner and a reflash. At least half of that benefit can come from the pipes ALONE. Yeah, that's a little despicable, but it works."
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The point was that Harley appears to be holding back on performance to some extent, so they can make some money on performance enhancing accessories. I don't think anyone has presented a valid argument against that. I also have no problem with a marketing strategy that helps keep a company profitable in a competitive market. If one doesn't like it, one doesn't need to buy the product.
Oh, yeah, that's definitely true also.
I can't honestly blame them from an "it's a brilliant strategy" standpoint.
Actually I just bought a Jeep Wrangler and I'm seeing the parallels between the companies. I spent as much on this 4-door Wrangler as we did on my Wife's Grand Cherokee, but there are a good number of extra things SHE GOT for that price that I did not. And some of them are in the Jeep Wrangler Accessory catalog. Smart (bastids!).
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Seems to me if you read Kev's post he said that that is government regulations are not at issue here.
I will quote him again and where does this say anything about the EPA. This is about HD detuning their bikes to sell more aftermarket parts. Even Kev admits its "despicable, but it works". I think he is talking about the HD detuning their machines to sell more stuff.
Read it and weep.
" But Harleys are purposely restricted to get you to spend more on a pipes and an air-cleaner. You can expect a 10-20% increase in power on a Harley just by adding 50-STATE STREET LEGAL accessory pipes, an air-cleaner and a reflash. At least half of that benefit can come from the pipes ALONE. Yeah, that's a little despicable, but it works."
Yeah, I admit that one.
There's 2 things at work here.
1. They already aren't tuning bikes for peak hp or to really compete with any of the Sport bikes/brands, or even today's standards like the CARCS or Hex-Head BMWs etc. They are purposely tuning for high, wide torque bands (at least as wide as their actual rpm range).
So that already takes some of the focus off the hp, then
2. They leave EVEN MORE of that on the table. Now maybe part of it is for extra reliability or more fuel efficiency or something like that. But just the fact that when they changed to EFI across the board in 07 they came out with a NEW LINE of "Screaming Eagle" mufflers that are "50-state street legal" and that promised to give, with NO OTHER modifications a power bump (up to around the 10% area), that does indeed suggest they left power on the table to sell mufflers. Now maybe it's a loophole and they ARE street legal, but would have brought something out of compliance for the manufacturer, I can't say for sure about that. But they continue to sell them almost a decade later.
The good news is that those mufflers are reportedly quieter than the previous generation of Screaming Eagle mufflers (which were already the quietest "accessory" mufflers out there). So a good number of people in the past decade have put "accessory" mufflers on their Harleys that aren't obnoxious. I'm thinking about trying a set as the 10 year/old lightly modified mufflers I'm running on our Sporty are going to need to be replaced soon.
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Interesting discussion. I suspect many posters have not ridden a modern Harley. My girlfriend has a '14 Softtail , and it is fast, comfy and reliable. It feels a lot lighter than a new Cali, but it isn't.
The V-rod is in another league altogether. It feels solid, goes like crazy, and feels very solid. I am seriously considering one.
The original question said "Harley v twin engine", my Buell fits. My 99 X1 1200cc Buell is very similar to a Guzzi. Yes, the torque is down lower, and it runs out of steam at 6800, but there is something wonderful about that rumble, and the leap forward when you crack the throttle. I have a 77 XLCR Sporster, and that is the worst vibrating antique ever, but it feels like I am riding something from WW1, and the torque and light weight are quite wonderful. It is an experience. So is my LeMans in a different way. In my opinion, Harleys and Guzzis make good stable mates.
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Seems to me if you read Kev's post he said that that is government regulations are not at issue here.
I will quote him again and where does this say anything about the EPA. This is about HD detuning their bikes to sell more aftermarket parts. Even Kev admits its "despicable, but it works". I think he is talking about the HD detuning their machines to sell more stuff.
Read it and weep.
" But Harleys are purposely restricted to get you to spend more on a pipes and an air-cleaner. You can expect a 10-20% increase in power on a Harley just by adding 50-STATE STREET LEGAL accessory pipes, an air-cleaner and a reflash. At least half of that benefit can come from the pipes ALONE. Yeah, that's a little despicable, but it works."
No weeping for me, my main ride is a Stelvio and that runs much better since I did some aftermarket tuning, I consider it just part of making a motorcycle mine. I have most likely owned over fifty motorcycles and I can't remember a single one of them that I didn't change in someway to make it the way it suited me.
Bob
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Interesting discussion. I suspect many posters have not ridden a modern Harley. My girlfriend has a '14 Softtail , and it is fast, comfy and reliable. It feels a lot lighter than a new Cali, but it isn't.
The V-rod is in another league altogether. It feels solid, goes like crazy, and feels very solid. I am seriously considering one.
The original question said "Harley v twin engine", my Buell fits. My 99 X1 1200cc Buell is very similar to a Guzzi. Yes, the torque is down lower, and it runs out of steam at 6800, but there is something wonderful about that rumble, and the leap forward when you crack the throttle. I have a 77 XLCR Sporster, and that is the worst vibrating antique ever, but it feels like I am riding something from WW1, and the torque and light weight are quite wonderful. It is an experience. So is my LeMans in a different way. In my opinion, Harleys and Guzzis make good stable mates.
"Fast ?" :laugh:
Dusty
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"Fast ?" :laugh:
Dusty
Hey you - PIPE DOWN THERE...
Fast ENOUGH... fast ENOUGH... :laugh: :bike-037:
Interesting discussion. I suspect many posters have not ridden a modern Harley. .
SURE seems that way! :thumb:
In my opinion, Harleys and Guzzis make good stable mates.
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
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Of the hundreds of Harley riders I know 99% of them give no thought to most of what we've discussed here. They love their bikes and a HUGE part of that is going to the Harley store and buying things for the bike. Huge part!
For whatever they are or are not, up to this point the business plan has been very well thought out and developed over time.
2014 figures may very well be the start of a trend The Mo Co will wish to alter.
The ride I had on a 2015 Road Glide Special was really great-except for the 2" rear travel.
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No weeping for me, my main ride is a Stelvio and that runs much better since I did some aftermarket tuning, I consider it just part of making a motorcycle mine. I have most likely owned over fifty motorcycles and I can't remember a single one of them that I didn't change in someway to make it the way it suited me.
Bob
Hey I put on a set on SS Agostini's on my 90 Mille. I was told to Euro jet it and open the air box hence I burn the valves. The performance increase was dramatic but I lost a good 5+ mph on average. Now this was an EPA bike small valve and 30 mm carbs. It was a lean as they could make it to get it into the US. Frankly as much as I like the performance of the package I am sorry I did it as I am to much of an environmentalist to justify my hot rodding my toy and with the end product of burning more high octance gas. So I live with that but that is my personal decision and I am not bitching about anybody who mods there engine for performance. So I slap myself in the face before riding it and come back with a big :grin: after riding it. Even then I am sure there are many on this forum who would love the 48-50 MPG I get on the Mille.
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Hey I put on a set on SS Agostini's on my 90 Mille. I was told to Euro jet it and open the air box hence I burn the valves. The performance increase was dramatic but I lost a good 5+ mph on average. Now this was an EPA bike small valve and 30 mm carbs. It was a lean as they could make it to get it into the US. Frankly as much as I like the performance of the package I am sorry I did it as I am to much of an environmentalist to justify my hot rodding my toy and with the end product of burning more high octance gas. So I live with that but that is my personal decision and I am not bitching about anybody who mods there engine for performance. So I slap myself in the face before riding it and come back with a big :grin: after riding it. Even then I am sure there are many on this forum who would love the 48-50 MPG I get on the Mille.
So the engine was so lean it burned valves? It must have been a noticeable flat spot of lack of throttle response from such a lean out... Did you notice anything else like pinging?........ In my many years messing with aircooled bikes ,I've never seen valves ruined by improper carburation, but have seen many pistons with holes in the crown caused by pre ignition as a result of lean air fuel mixture.
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My Stelvio gets in the 42/44 MPG range when riding like an old man, less when riding it spiritedly. ;-) Interesting point,my near box stock BMW R100/7 has always been in upper 30's for mpg.
Bob
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So the engine was so lean it burned valves? It must have been a noticeable flat spot of lack of throttle response from such a lean out... Did you notice anything else like pinging?........ In my many years messing with aircooled bikes ,I've never seen valves ruined by improper carburation, but have seen many pistons with holes in the crown caused by pre ignition as a result of lean air fuel mixture.
No I think I must had written the post to make it sound that way. The Agonstin exhaust opened the exhaust flow up considerably. When I ordered them from Agostini they told me that "You will burn the valves with this exhaust system if you leave the carbs and air box stock." The exhaust system required a richer burning engine. They said do not do it unless you modify the carbs using Eurojet parts and also open the breathing up on the air filter. So it was not pinging and was not burning valves.
I had to make the full modifications as one package Agostini exhaust + eurojeting the carb+ high flow K&N air filter.
Most stock Mille's that I know including mine consistently got 55-58 MPG on the highway.
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"Fast ?" :laugh:
Dusty
Quick/fast compared to a lot of Guzzis. High 12s (okay, with her filter and V&H 2 into 1, probably mid 12s), and with all that torque it feels fast. Pretty close to the Californa 1400. Yes my Stelvio is quicker, but a 2 valve Guzzi rider is going to have a rough time keeping up to my girlfriend until the road gets really twisty, and she drags the floorboards all the time...lol When she whacks the throttle open, I have to drop a gear on the Stelvio to stay with her...though I can blow by if I hold it open... :grin:
The V-Rod runs low 11s (about the same as my Buell X1)...103rwhp or so (122 crank). I think the styling scares people off, but I think it is a helluva nice bike.
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How are you getting those predictions?
Mid 12's seems pretty optimistic. Then again the Stelvio should be low 12's to HIGH 11's.
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How are you getting those predictions?
Mid 12's seems pretty optimistic. Then again the Stelvio should be low 12's to HIGH 11's.
1000 foot drag strip :rolleyes: :laugh:
Dusty
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How are you getting those predictions?
Mid 12's seems pretty optimistic. Then again the Stelvio should be low 12's to HIGH 11's.
No. Those are numbers real people are getting ...on various Harley Forums.(I hang out everywhere...lol. ) I have ridden a couple different Softtails, even did some touring on one, so I know how quick they are. You should ride one. The 103 was quick, and now they are 110s with 109 ft.lbs torque.
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No. Those are numbers real people are getting ...on various Harley Forums. I have ridden a couple different Softtails, even did some touring on one, so I know how quick they are. (I hang out everywhere...lol. ) You should ride one. The 103 was quick, and now they are 110s with 109 ft.lbs torque.
Well I have ridden some, but yes, not the 103" or 110" motors.
Still the 96" was seeing mid 13's.
<shrugs>
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Quick/fast compared to a lot of Guzzis. High 12s (okay, with her filter and V&H 2 into 1, probably mid 12s), and with all that torque it feels fast. Pretty close to the Californa 1400. Yes my Stelvio is quicker, but a 2 valve Guzzi rider is going to have a rough time keeping up to my girlfriend until the road gets really twisty, and she drags the floorboards all the time...lol When she whacks the throttle open, I have to drop a gear on the Stelvio to stay with her...though I can blow by if I hold it open... :grin:
The V-Rod runs low 11s (about the same as my Buell X1)...103rwhp or so (122 crank). I think the styling scares people off, but I think it is a helluva nice bike.
the VRod will out run any stock Guzzi.
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Well I have ridden some, but yes, not the 103" or 110" motors.
Still the 96" was seeing mid 13's.
<shrugs>
It was a big jump from 96 to 103 (somewhere around 114cc, and a higher compression ratio).
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the VRod will out run any stock Guzzi.
If Harley had only made the VRod into a proper bagger. Not enough low end grunt. Not impressed...
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It was a big jump from 96 to 103 (somewhere around 114cc, and a higher compression ratio).
Harley won't list HP ratings. They are still slow.......
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Harley won't list HP ratings. They are still slow.......
Check the Screaming Eagle Parts Catalogs. You can usually find the stock ratings there to be compared with the SE Stage I or II kit ratings.
I'll post what I've found tomorrow if I get some time at my desk. But yeah, I don't recall seeing a big jump between any one set of BT motors.
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Check the Screaming Eagle Parts Catalogs. You can usually find the stock ratings there to be compared with the SE Stage I or II kit ratings.
I'll post what I've found tomorrow if I get some time at my desk. But yeah, I don't recall seeing a big jump between any one set of BT motors.
They are still slow.......... :popcorn:
Party like it's 1999. :boozing:
(http://www.users.qwest.net/~ghakala/old%20bike.GIF)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfvqrW-yMrQ :popcorn:
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They are still slow.......... :popcorn:
Party like it's 1999. :boozing:
(http://www.users.qwest.net/~ghakala/old%20bike.GIF)
Meh, apples and pomegranates.
Besides there's always someone faster.
About 99.9% of the owners and riders of these kind of bikes (Harleys and cruisers) don't care, and most of riders of other kinds are probably fooling themselves anyway.
There's only ever one top dog at a time, and all the rest are making the same compromise, just to a different degree.
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Meh, apples and pomegranates.
Besides there's always someone faster.
About 99.9% of the owners and riders of these kind of bikes (Harleys and cruisers) don't care, and most of riders of other kinds are probably fooling themselves anyway.
There's only ever one top dog at a time, and all the rest are making the same compromise, just to a different degree.
Truth...
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Approximate Stock RWHP ratings, largely taken from MCN and Harley Screaming Eagle Catalog Dyno charts.
I realize this isn't gospel, and it doesn't tell the whole story* (more on that in a minute), but it's a good indicator of general/relative power between the various EVO and TC motors:
Approx stock rwhp (mostly from MCN)
883 EVO (Rubbermount Carb) - 40-41 hp
883 EVO (Rubbermount EFI) - 48-50 hp
1200 EVO (Solidmount ) - 52-56 hp
1200 EVO (Rubbermount) - 57-60 hp
1340 EVO BT - 48-52 hp
TC88 - 60-63 hp
TC96 - 66-68 hp
TC103B - 71 hp
TC103 - 75-78 hp
Interesting, I only had the TC103B motor in my data (but MotrHead, isn't THAT the motor in your girlfriend's 2014 FXST?).
But yeah, there is a larger difference between the TC96 and the TC103 than I thought and *the HP figures don't tell the whole story as it looks like there is at LEAST as big an increase in torque.
I'll need to add the TC110 data as well.
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All this talk about slow Harleys....other than the 883 Sporty and perhaps the most optioned BT baggers, I believe all the rest made recently turn low to mid 13's in the 1/4 mile, some are faster of course.
What does this mean to me? One of my old 650 Brit bikes is a bit slower and all the performance, with in reason, can be used on back roads. The 85 Cali 2 cafe bike might turn a low 13 1/4 mile and not all the performance can be used on secondary roads. My 97 Buell is faster, high to mid 12's and just some of the performance can be used. Riding my friend's newer 1050 Speed triple, high 10's in the 1/4 mile , very little performance can be use on the roads here. It's like a guy bragging about his 650 HP Vette...you can only use the power for a few seconds.
And we have to remember not all riders need to corner like a GP bike...
Maybe for a rider out west in Utah there's more opportunity to use the performance....
I look at Harley BT riders like guys driving around in full sized 4x4 Diesel PU trucks that never drive in deep snow or mud or carry weight...Why do they need such a vehicle? Because they like it.....
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<<<It's like a guy bragging about his 650 HP Vette...you can only use the power for a few seconds.>>
My neighbor recently bought a CO6 and took me for a ride in it, all I can say is those few seconds that the power can be used are certainly a rush.;-)
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<<Maybe for a rider out west in Utah there's more opportunity to use the performance....
I look at Harley BT riders like guys driving around in full sized 4x4 Diesel PU trucks that never drive in deep snow or mud or carry weight...Why do they need such a vehicle? Because they like it.....>>
Actually, there is a reason that H-D owns the middle of the country and the mountain west. The Big Twins are well suited for riding the big, open roads found in these parts. They are generally comfortable and their power is of the torquey variety, yielding a nice relaxed cadence that is good for covering the open spaces. For the most part, rapid acceleration and razor sharp cornering are secondary considerations. Not for everybody,of course, but fine for many. Full disclosure: I spent a week on a new rented Road King touring south/central Utah last June.
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That's well said. The bikes may be a one trick pony but the excel at that trick.
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The ___________ may be a one trick pony but the excel at that trick.
Fixored - you can say that about a lot of different bikes, and the more SPORT you put into a bike, the more that's true too.
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Fixored - you can say that about a lot of different bikes, and the more SPORT you put into a bike, the more that's true too.
Yep. Ducati Panigale being a shining example of a bike at the opposite end from Ultra Classic Electra Glide.
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From this website .http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/articles/2015_01PerfIndex.pdf
Looks like Guzzi's 1/4 mile times do fairly well against HD.
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t652/redrider901/Screen%20Shot%202016-01-07%20at%204.48.47%20PM_zpsochzyldg.png)
(http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/redrider901/media/Screen%20Shot%202016-01-07%20at%204.48.47%20PM_zpsochzyldg.png.html)
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Well, I stand corrected. It does appear that the Griso will run with a VRod. The Stelvio and my Sport aren't far off the VRod either.
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Well, I stand corrected. It does appear that the Griso will run with a VRod. The Stelvio and my Sport aren't far off the VRod either.
Color me shocked as well.
Then though, I've always thought the entire V-Rod concept was underserved by the HD faithful. Fear of that which is new and unusual and all that jazz. Probably a hell of a lot more post purchase power potential to the V-Rod than the pasta contingent can muster.
Todd.
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The 8V big block pulls like a FJR. :popcorn:
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The 8V big block pulls like a FJR. :popcorn:
I sorta agree, until the 8v gets into redline and 4 cyl bikes go on for another 3k of full power.
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From this website .http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/articles/2015_01PerfIndex.pdf
Looks like Guzzi's 1/4 mile times do fairly well against HD.
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t652/redrider901/Screen%20Shot%202016-01-07%20at%204.48.47%20PM_zpsochzyldg.png)
(http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/redrider901/media/Screen%20Shot%202016-01-07%20at%204.48.47%20PM_zpsochzyldg.png.html)
Is this a surprise?
I mean, smaller/lighter/more sport oriented Guzzi models (especially 4V/Cyl ones) do better than larger, heavier 2V pushrod Harleys (especially since most of what you show are touring bikes or mid-to-late 1990's models?
I guess I'm missing the headline here?
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It's like comparing Gina Lollobrigida to Rachel Welch! I like them both....but
I'm partial to Italian things
oh and Guzzi's have nice jugs
and if my old Harley wasn't leaking oil I knew it had none
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Those Soft tail times are old small engine versions. The models from the last 5 years are much quicker and faster. But yeah, my Stelvio 4v should still beat them. It is faster in my experience.
All it means is Harleys are not "slow". Like I said, very comparable to the Guzzi line, ans just as comfy for long distance riding as the Guzzis. Not everyone's cup of tea, but they are their own very nice experience.
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Uh , using MG's as a benchmark doesn't mean HD's are fast :evil:
Potato
Dusty
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Uh , using MG's as a benchmark doesn't mean HD's are fast :evil:
Potato
Dusty
Omfg haven't we covered this enough...
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Omfg haven't we covered this enough...
I have ridden fast bikes , MG's and HD's aren't fast , sorry Kev .
Dusty
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From this website .http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/articles/2015_01PerfIndex.pdf
Looks like Guzzi's 1/4 mile times do fairly well against HD.
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t652/redrider901/Screen%20Shot%202016-01-07%20at%204.48.47%20PM_zpsochzyldg.png)
(http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/redrider901/media/Screen%20Shot%202016-01-07%20at%204.48.47%20PM_zpsochzyldg.png.html)
Somethings not right about some of these numbers.
- I've got a XL1200C. The table says it will top out at 124 mph - MAYBE if you run it off a 200 ft cliff, but it sure as hell won't do it on a straight road. Best I've seen is 110 mph, downhill with the wind at my back.
- I'm pretty sure my Cali 1400 will take the XL1200c in a 1/4 mile too. Guess I'll need to check that out.
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I have ridden fast bikes , MG's and HD's aren't fast , sorry Kev .
Dusty
Dusty's right about this one.
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Define fast! We were comparing Harley and Guzzi V twins. I think they compare well. I enjoy both. I stand by calling V-rods and Buells fast, and both are Harley engines.
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Define fast! We were comparing Harley and Guzzi V twins. I think they compare well. I enjoy both. I stand by calling V-rods and Buells fast, and both are Harley engines.
155 mph
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I have ridden fast bikes , MG's and HD's aren't fast , sorry Kev .
Dusty
Again, asked and answered 100x.
It's all relative.
Fast compared to Sportbikes or superbikes, or supercars or hypercars?
NO JUST NO, BUT HELL NO. Of course not.
Fast compared to average cars and even hot hatches? Yeah. Even a V7 can run similar 1/4 to a WRX which is no slouch.
But I don't think a single person here was suggesting the first.
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Dusty's right about this one.
Define fast! We were comparing Harley and Guzzi V twins. I think they compare well. I enjoy both. I stand by calling V-rods and Buells fast, and both are Harley engines.
Again, asked and answered 100x.
It's all relative.
Fast compared to Sportbikes or superbikes, or supercars or supercars?
Of course not.
Fast compared to average cars and even hour hatches? Yeah. Even a V7 can run similar 1/4 to a
WRX which is no slouch.
But I don't think a single prison here was suggesting the first.
Nope , fast is fast . Nothing relative about it . Fast for a cruiser bike means nothing . Of course , compared to a Top Fueler most everything is slow , so ... Still , a 1700 CC motorbike that will barely outperform a good running 650 CC Brit bike from 1968 is underwhelming . Not saying anyone needs a fast bike , or that a slow bike isn't fun , but slow is slow .
Dusty
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RPMs
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Nope , fast is fast . Nothing relative about it . Fast for a cruiser bike means nothing . Of course , compared to a Top Fueler most everything is slow
Complete and utter BS.
Fast is by definition subjective.
No production speedo reads "Fast".
You don't even get further than your fourth sentence before you admit the subjective nature of the term.
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Complete and utter BS.
Fast is by definition subjective.
No production speedo reads "Fast".
You don't even get further than your fourth sentence before you admit the subjective nature of the term.
So the guy who told me his 1600 CC Star was fast was correct ? Compared to what , a Honda Super Cub ? Sorry , HD's and MG's are not fast . Heck , even a SV 650 will leave one for dead .
A fast bike will almost take the rider's breath away , not something any HD is capable of .
Dusty
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So the guy who told me his 1600 CC Star was fast was correct ? Compared to what , a Honda Super Cub ? Sorry , HD's and MG's are not fast . Heck , even a SV 650 will leave one for dead .
A fast bike will almost take the rider's breath away , not something any HD is capable of .
Dusty
Two answerers:
1. Who cares?
2. Many things can take my breath away, starting with a beautiful woman, a motorcycle whose most important attribute is speed will be pretty far down the list.
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You two keep this up and a moderator is going to give you a time out.;-)
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My FZ750 Yamaha with Kerker/Supertrapp K&N and a tune still doesn't quite break into the 10s, but it is fast! 150mph is plenty fast for me. My RZ350F2 372cc bike running 12s feels fast...and that thing at 125 mph is an experience! LOL. It is subjective.
Personally, anything that won't run 12s doesn't make a quick rating, but about 125-130mph is fast to me. But then I didn't grow up with an R1 or Hayabusa...lol
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Two answerers:
1. Who cares?
2. Many things can take my breath away, starting with a beautiful woman, a motorcycle whose most important attribute is speed will be pretty far down the list.
Aw c'mon Kev , you can't back out now :laugh: No , I don't particularly care , but some do . Will admit that a modern superbike is a hoot , opening the throttle at 100 MPH in third gear and holding it open until about 170 MPH , while completely stupid , is a major rush . No one needs that level of performance , but whoo Hoo :bike-037:
Dusty
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I know you're just trying to keep this interesting thread alone.
I also know from our conversations that you understand simply riding a Moto Guzzi or a Harley means you know there are plenty of pleasures to be had on bikes that aren't a top dog.
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RPMs
Potato :laugh:
Dusty
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Nothing subjective about fast and slow. Fast is ahead of you and slow is behind every single time. :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu
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So the guy who told me his 1600 CC Star was fast was correct ? Compared to what , a Honda Super Cub ? Sorry , HD's and MG's are not fast . Heck , even a SV 650 will leave one for dead .
A fast bike will almost take the rider's breath away , not something any HD is capable of .
Dusty
Now I think sub 10 second 1/4 is fast.
From that article
Quickest Quarter-Mile Times
1] 2006 Suzuki GSX-R1000. . . . . . . 9.55 @ 143.02 mph 2] 2012 Kawasaki Ninja ZX-14R. . 9.62 @ 149.00
3] 2008SuzukiHayabusa .......9.77@145.97
4] 2012BMWS1000RR .........9.80@148.35
5] 2008 Kawasaki Ninja ZX-14 . . . 9.83 @ 143.44
Highest Rear-Wheel HP
1] 2012 Kawasaki Ninja ZX-14R. . . . . . . . 189.34 hp 2] 2012BMWS1000RR ............... 183.8
3] 2010BMWS1000RR ............... 178.81
4] 2009StarVMax ................... 173.3
5] 2012Ducati1199Panig aleS........ 171.8
Shortest 60–0 Stops
1] 2006TriumphSpeedTri ple ......... 104.8' 2] 2008 BMW Megamoto . . . . . . . . . . . . . 106.4' 3] 1999TriumphSpeedTri ple ......... 106.7' 4] 1997F6Valkyrie ................... 107.4' 5] 1997SuzukiMarauder8 00 ......... 107.6'
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By far the biggest surprise for me is that BMW came in last in reliability. So much for Air Heads being smart. :grin:
I'm sure that airheads don't weigh into these numbers. The biggest number of problems with BMWs are with electronics, and other techno-wizardry on the newer models.
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Harv, those numbers do represent spectacular performance levels . One thing they leave out is how freakishly fast those bikes are all the way to their respective top speeds .
Dusty
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I'd say an 11 sec bike will definitely get your attention if not take your breath away.
I prefer to clip a good apex but it's always good for you (and the bike) to hit the redline on every ride. And it's quite a rush on a fast bike.
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I'd say an 11 sec bike will definitely get your attention if not take your breath away.
I prefer to clip a good apex but it's always good for you (and the bike) to hit the redline on every ride. And it's quite a rush on a fast bike.
A sub 3 second 0-60 has a pretty high pucker factor too (usually because the front wheel isn't on the ground).
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2015 Michigan State Police test of police motorcycles
Summary of acceleration and top speed-
BMW R1200RTP...
0-60 MPH- 3.99 sec. 0-100 MPH- 9.14 sec. Top Speed 141 MPH. 1/4 mi- 12.52sec at 116.08 MPH
Moto Guzzi Norge 1200...
0-60 MPH- 4.69 sec. 0-100 MPH- 12.52 sec. Top Speed 127 MPH 1/4 mi- 13.29 sec at 107.07 MPH
Moto Guzzi California 1400...
0-60 MPH- 4.94 sec. 0-100 MPH- 15.01 sec. Top Speed 117 MPH 1/4 mi- 13.84 sec at 99.33 MPH
H-D Electra Glide...(Road King had almost exactly the same numbers)
0-60 MPH- 5.62 sec. 0-100 MPH- 19.34 sec. Top Speed 113 MPH 1/4 mi- 14.44 sec at 94.70 MPH
Can Am Spyder RTP...
0-60 MPH- 6.55 sec 0-100 MPH- 20.56 sec Top Speed 114 MPH 1/4 mi- 15.11 sec at 96.00 MPH
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2015 Michigan State Police test of police motorcycles
Summary of acceleration and top speed-
BMW R1200RTP...
0-60 MPH- 3.99 sec. 0-100 MPH- 9.14 sec. Top Speed 141 MPH. 1/4 mi- 12.52sec at 116.08 MPH
Moto Guzzi Norge 1200...
0-60 MPH- 4.69 sec. 0-100 MPH- 12.52 sec. Top Speed 127 MPH 1/4 mi- 13.29 sec at 107.07 MPH
Moto Guzzi California 1400...
0-60 MPH- 4.94 sec. 0-100 MPH- 15.01 sec. Top Speed 117 MPH 1/4 mi- 13.84 sec at 99.33 MPH
H-D Electra Glide...(Road King had almost exactly the same numbers)
0-60 MPH- 5.62 sec. 0-100 MPH- 19.34 sec. Top Speed 113 MPH 1/4 mi- 14.44 sec at 94.70 MPH
Can Am Spyder RTP...
0-60 MPH- 6.55 sec 0-100 MPH- 20.56 sec Top Speed 114 MPH 1/4 mi- 15.11 sec at 96.00 MPH
The figures for the Norge seem believable.
But what was wrong with the Cali 1400? My experience is that it will eat the Norge.
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I’ve really enjoyed this thread. Wild Guzzi at it’s best (and worst)
To this point my input has been primarily snarky comments about some of the posts. Let me try to make some more thoughtful comments.
First, the disclaimer. The opinions below are mine, not yours. I'm not asking you to agree, and I'm not likely to enter into any argument with you about my opinions.
Just curious for those who have some experience with the Harley V twin's as well as the Guzzi. What is it about the Guzzi-V twin engine that captivates you more so then the Harley twin? Overlooking the cultural differences, is it the feel, torque, power delivery� What is it that causes you to choose the Guzzi over a Harley?
I took the OP’s original post to be focused at the engine. I see this as an apples to oranges comparison. Lower revving high torque American engine vs. a higher revving, higher horsepower European engine. No different that what we’ve seen in U.S. vs. American cars for decades. I like both.
Harleys are ubiquitous.
Moto~Guzzi is not.
I like that.
I like this too. It’s the contrarian in me and the desire to be different.
Lucian , are we not a cult :shocked:
Dusty
Dusty, I fear Lucian may actually be right.
Design and character. From the early years of the Guzzi twin, the Guzzi was more oil tight than the Harley. The crankcase is a box with a removable bottom sump, not an external tank with hoses. Also not split vertically. The rocker boxes, carbs, and spark plugs are where you can get at them for easier maintenance than HD, or Brit bikes. The shaft drive meant less oil being flung about. The overall gearing and superior cooling meant that the bike could be ridden further, faster. The primary balance meant that the engine could achieve much longer service life than HD or brit bikes. It was about the best you could buy.
Forget the early years. Modern Harleys don’t leak, and what maintenance? Change the oil and the spark plugs. The belt on my Harley doesn’t fling any oil on my pants.
Having owned a couple Sportsters, and then a Sport 1100 and V11 LeMans, I'd say the engine personalities are very different.
The Guzzis like to rev, in relation to the HDs.
And, my solid-mount Sportsters were bone shakers compared to my Guzzis.
The Guzzis are much more enjoyable, long-distance / high-speed.
Agree down to the bone shaking part. Rubber mount Sportster set up properly is an all day ride. I’m with you on the high-speed riding – not Harley’s forte.
Now I've not ridden a V11 Sport, but again compared to my Jackal, Breva 1100, or V7, the difference in revs is pretty small (like I said about 1k).
Difference between a modern Sporty and a V11 or a pushrod Griso is 2k.
Look, I get it. I like the feel of the Harley engine. The bikes are anachronisms, though.
Chuck's right. Is there anyone else besides Harley (and Harley engine clone builders) that still build engines with pressed together cranks and siamesed connecting rods?
When I bought my Vintage, I did seriously consider a Road King. It was gorgeous, had the kit I wanted, and was really comfortable. However, the weight and lousy cornering clearance was just a deal breaker...
Yep. I swallowed hard when I bought the Cali 1400 as I had never owned a bike that weighed more that 550 lbs. At least the fat old Italian gal handles well.
The reasons I ride a Guzzi and not a Harley are these,
1, When I started riding, only outlaws, old men and cops rode Harleys. I didn't fall into any of those categories
2, I like performance, acceleration, top speed, braking and handling. Guzzi surpasses Harley on all counts, except a drag race for the first 100 feet.
3, I don't need to own a certain brand of bike to make friends. I have plenty of friends, some even ride Harleys.
Agree on all front. Except now it's mostly us old men that ride Guzzis.
Oh lord. Here we go again.
I've tried to avoid posting on this thread. Non-H-D riders seem to be obsessed with dissing The Motor Company. Most of the time, the negative comments are based largely on ignorance and no experience riding the Big Twins, especially the ones built in the last decade or two.
I like both Guzzi and Harley.
Really, one can like more than one brand! I promise. It's okay.
Modern Harley Davidson bikes are extremely reliable and extremely low maintenance. Not even Guzzi can match them in this regard. You don't have all the fiddling and major problems with H-D that you do with so many of the European bikes. Just scroll through our own WG thread topics and take a look...
Yep
I also find it interesting that a lot of people who don't like Harleys gave them up before I was in grade school....
Well, for the most part Harleys really sucked from the late 60s until the EVO engine. That's one reason Guzzi was able to sell so damned many Eldorados to the CHP.
Unfortunately we all remember our bad experiences with certain brands of motorized transportation. (My wife has standing orders to shoot me if I ever consider buying anything made by GM).
I just like them because they are quirky and different .... :popcorn:
Yep
My Sportster is always on the bubble as the first bike to go to make room for the next toy. But then I ride it, and every time I ride it, it makes me smile. I really hate all the B.S. and trappings that is associated with Harleys, and many of the ignorant people that ride them. However that doesn't keep me from enjoying my Sportster.
But after all the dust settles I find that Italian bikes speak to me. I like the way they look, I like the way they ride, I like the way they handle, and I like how fast they can go.
One other point - My Sportster is happy going down the rode at 65-75 miles an hour. Much faster and it 'complains' a little. At 65-75 every Italian bike I own is shouting 'go faster, go faster', which I usually do. Since I don't have the self control (my name is Mike and I AM a speedaholic) maybe I should stay on a bike that reminds me to keep it under control.
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The figures for the Norge seem believable.
But what was wrong with the Cali 1400? My experience is that it will eat the Norge.
Must be weight and/or gearing. I think the 1400 did very well for a bike of its size and weight. It was clearly quicker than the Harleys.
Also, the Michigan State Police yearly tests are the premier testing venue, they are extremely thorough. There are multiple riders making multiple runs and all the runs are posted and the averages of the runs are too. The reports are fascinating. To describe each vehicle and each test, and present the results takes 128 pages. But that also includes about a dozen patrol cars tested too. Many other tests done also- braking, slalom, comfort, etc.
I was surprised to even see the Guzzis presented by Moto Guzzi for police service in the USA.
The MSP preliminary report for 2016 is also coming out and it doesn't show any Guzzis tested. Did Moto Guzzi withdraw them for police use consideration after one year? Or did MG not have their 2016s available at time of testing? I guess we'll have to wait until the complete report is published.
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Are Guzzi's faster than Harleys' Of course they are ... On the stripped 85 Cali 2 with a stock engine and open pipes "tuned"by me, my younger friend set a class record.....Of course 1000 cc push rod class should be dominated by older Sportys and BMW's, but none showed up :grin:
The fasted Guzzi on this site that has a certified timed top speed in the one mile standing start..... :cool:
We are Rough Edges racing .... :wink:
ECTA Ohio one mile 1000 CC Pushrod Records
9251 M/PG-1000/4 Rough Edges Racing Lyjha Wilton 116.6105 2013-09-29 09:35:12
417 M/PF-1000/4 Mark Rubin Mark Rubin 145.5369 2013-09-28 16:36:12
8949A MPS/PG-1000/4 T. Reay / Old Fart Racing Patrick Malphus 134.3284 2015-09-27 13:37:40
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RPMs
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2015 Michigan State Police test of police motorcycles
Summary of acceleration and top speed-
BMW R1200RTP...
0-60 MPH- 3.99 sec. 0-100 MPH- 9.14 sec. Top Speed 141 MPH. 1/4 mi- 12.52sec at 116.08 MPH
Moto Guzzi Norge 1200...
0-60 MPH- 4.69 sec. 0-100 MPH- 12.52 sec. Top Speed 127 MPH 1/4 mi- 13.29 sec at 107.07 MPH
Moto Guzzi California 1400...
0-60 MPH- 4.94 sec. 0-100 MPH- 15.01 sec. Top Speed 117 MPH 1/4 mi- 13.84 sec at 99.33 MPH
H-D Electra Glide...(Road King had almost exactly the same numbers)
0-60 MPH- 5.62 sec. 0-100 MPH- 19.34 sec. Top Speed 113 MPH 1/4 mi- 14.44 sec at 94.70 MPH
Can Am Spyder RTP...
0-60 MPH- 6.55 sec 0-100 MPH- 20.56 sec Top Speed 114 MPH 1/4 mi- 15.11 sec at 96.00 MPH
I like this test data, this and the MCN performance index. They mean more to me for bench comparisons than say the MCN list of top 10 fastest bikes (literally there's not a single one on there in which I have the slightest interest, even though I've ridden a couple of them).
That said there's nothing surprising or compelling about this data.
Seriously a 1200cc or 1400cc with 4valves/cylinder makes more power and is a little quicker than a 1700 or 1800cc with 2 valves per cylinder that weighs more (and in the case of the 1200cc MUCH more).
Where's the surprise ending?
The only surprise I see, and maybe it's because of the testing methods, is that they all sound close to a second slower than similar models are rated at MCN. But they remain in the right positions relative to each other.
Now, and here's the big part of this, that data doesn't sway me into wanting an R1200 or Norge over an RK or Cali, nor does it make my mind up between the RK and Cali (both of which I've ridden).
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I don't think I have seen any thread that has had more printed words and communicated so little.
>insert your deadhorse emoticon here<
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Design and character. From the early years of the Guzzi twin, the Guzzi was more oil tight than the Harley. The crankcase is a box with a removable bottom sump, not an external tank with hoses. Also not split vertically. The rocker boxes, carbs, and spark plugs are where you can get at them for easier maintenance than HD, or Brit bikes. The shaft drive meant less oil being flung about. The overall gearing and superior cooling meant that the bike could be ridden further, faster. The primary balance meant that the engine could achieve much longer service life than HD or brit bikes. It was about the best you could buy.
Was. Back in the 70s and 80s. Today, I know of several long distance HD riders with 100K on their machines. Today's Guzzi's require a knowledgeable dealership, or an individual investment in tools and software of about $1000.
Most current motorcycles will easily obtain 100k with just routine maintenance. In the 1970's, Guzzi's and their quirks made sense. Today, harder to justify.
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I don't think I have seen any thread that has had more printed words and communicated so little.
Well, it IS just about preference.
How many ways can someone say they like chocolate better than vanilla, or Andouille better than Chorizo? :boozing:
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I don't think I have seen any thread that has had more printed words and communicated so little
:1: And it's only taken 9 pages to get here. Winter?? :evil:
Paul :boozing:
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So if you are going to compare apples to apples then quote the Road King after you "spend more on a pipes and an air-cleaner". If HD is so good at taking care of their customers then it's fairly obvious setting up their bikes to purposefully require upgrades to increase power is a complete contradiction of that notion. And the amazing thing is 75% of HD owners are loyal to a company that detunes their bike at the factory so you drop and extra $1k or more to get it running like it should have right out of the crate. They are laughing all the way to the bank on that one.
Now that's funny! Guzzi did well with hydro and flat tappets didn't they. And I see many Guzzi's with low mileage, 40k or less on a 10 year old bike. And most HD riders I personally just gotta have some new farkle, and buy it. I remember when most motorcycle riders were mechanics, or could and would maintain their own machines. But since cars rarely need much before 70k, and most motorcycles, there are fewer people doing mechanics. But also because the computers that are almost required these days, are expensive.
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I don't think I have seen any thread that has had more printed words and communicated so little
:1: And it's only taken 9 pages to get here. Winter?? :evil:
Paul :boozing:
RPMs
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There are more mopeds ridden worldwide that are faster than any motorcycle in traffic and on a daily basis. So there........:-0
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"Fast ?" :laugh:
Dusty
Same to be said about Guzzi...
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Same to be said about Guzzi...
I already said that :laugh:
Dusty
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All this talk about slow Harleys....other than the 883 Sporty and perhaps the most optioned BT baggers, I believe all the rest made recently turn low to mid 13's in the 1/4 mile, some are faster of course.
What does this mean to me? One of my old 650 Brit bikes is a bit slower and all the performance, with in reason, can be used on back roads. The 85 Cali 2 cafe bike might turn a low 13 1/4 mile and not all the performance can be used on secondary roads. My 97 Buell is faster, high to mid 12's and just some of the performance can be used. Riding my friend's newer 1050 Speed triple, high 10's in the 1/4 mile , very little performance can be use on the roads here. It's like a guy bragging about his 650 HP Vette...you can only use the power for a few seconds.
And we have to remember not all riders need to corner like a GP bike...
Maybe for a rider out west in Utah there's more opportunity to use the performance....
I look at Harley BT riders like guys driving around in full sized 4x4 Diesel PU trucks that never drive in deep snow or mud or carry weight...Why do they need such a vehicle? Because they like it.....
HEY!! LOL.
Out of the 54k I have on my 2013 RAM 2500 diesel, I have only pulled trailers for 2000 miles. But I get better fuel mileage than my 1998 Chevy 1500 did in its best days. And later this year we will be buying the camper.
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Somethings not right about some of these numbers.
- I've got a XL1200C. The table says it will top out at 124 mph - MAYBE if you run it off a 200 ft cliff, but it sure as hell won't do it on a straight road. Best I've seen is 110 mph, downhill with the wind at my back.
- I'm pretty sure my Cali 1400 will take the XL1200c in a 1/4 mile too. Guess I'll need to check that out.
Unless you are under 150 pounds, you are over weight for being a tester or racer.
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When the majority of US riders loose 50 pounds, their bike will be much faster.
And my LeMansIV was a blast to ride in a fast manner. But a rebuilt suspension on my 89 ElectraGlide made it a hoot to ride also.
At 300 pounds, and even back when I weighed 220, I always rebuilt/upgraded suspension and brakes on every bike I owned.
If I buy a new Guzzi this year, I will also spend the mney on the computer software so I can maintain it because of scarcity of good Guzzi dealers.
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Wait a minute. Top speed on a Cali 1400 is only 117mph? :shocked:
Didn't expect Panigale numbers, still surprising though it doesn't mean much to me in general. Kinda like this thread. :thumb:
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Wait a minute. Top speed on a Cali 1400 is only 117mph? :shocked:
Didn't expect Panigale numbers, still surprising though it doesn't mean much to me in general. Kinda like this thread. :thumb:
It essentially means nothing to me.
There's no place for me to legally ride 100+ mph on a road in this state or any surrounding states.
And I really have no need to.
I'm way more interested in how the bike feels in the 40-80 mph range.
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It essentially means nothing to me.
There's no place for me to legally ride 100+ mph on a road in this state or any surrounding states.
And I really have no need to.
I'm way more interested in how the bike feels in the 40-80 mph range.
I would say how a bike feels in the 40-80mph range is "one" interest for me as per my own personal riding but I'm not sure if I would say it's my specificaly most important one. But I wouldn't expect my preferences to be the same for most others. My daily 30 plus mile commute on the bike involves mostly highway work and there it does interest me more how a bike performs in the 70-100mph range.
As per top speeds, as stated, doesn't mean much to me either, but it is a bit surprising about the 1400 given all my previous Calis would do 117 maybe not easily but without great drama. Shoot, I think I've probably caught a tail wind and done 110 on the V7. Again, I almost never spend any kind of time at those speeds on those bikes but the 1400 topping out at 117 is surprising given that I expected it to be in the 125-130 range. But again good sirs I say, "Not that there's anything wrong with that." :grin:
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I would say how a bike feels in the 40-80mph range is "one" interest for me as per my own personal riding but I'm not sure if I would say it's my specificaly most important one. But I wouldn't expect my preferences to be the same for most others. My daily 30 plus mile commute on the bike involves mostly highway work and there it does interest me more how a bike performs in the 70-100mph range.
Yeah, no ... just no.
I really have no NEED to be doing 90 mph even in a pass around here, never mind 100 mph, it just an un-necessary risk (not to say I haven't).
I've had plenty of bikes that CAN run a 90 mph all day, but it is extremely stressful between worrying about traffic, cops, and unexpected obstacles (poor pavement, debris, animals) that I really have no interest.
As per top speeds, as stated, doesn't mean much to me either, but it is a bit surprising about the 1400 given all my previous Calis would do 117 maybe not easily but without great drama. Shoot, I think I've probably caught a tail wind and done 110 on the V7.
I dunno man. Older Cali's had notoriously inaccurate speedos. I'm not even sure I ever bothered trying to see it read the ton on the Jackal, maybe once.
And though I will confess to uhhh, pushing the V7 once to see what I thought she could do (and GPS verifying it), I'm not entirely certain mine was going to ever make it to 110 (though it was much newer than and a repeat test might be interesting).
Again, I almost never spend any kind of time at those speeds on those bikes but the 1400 topping out at 117 is surprising given that I expected it to be in the 125-130 range. But again good sirs I say, "Not that there's anything wrong with that." :grin:
Well, FWIW, it is a LOT MORE MASS and surface area than the V7 or even either an old Cali.
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Yeah, no ... just no.
I really have no NEED to be doing 90 mph even in a pass around here, never mind 100 mph, it just an un-necessary risk (not to say I haven't).
I've had plenty of bikes that CAN run a 90 mph all day, but it is extremely stressful between worrying about traffic, cops, and unexpected obstacles (poor pavement, debris, animals) that I really have no interest.
Well, FWIW, it is a LOT MORE MASS and surface area than the V7 or even either an old Cali.
But Kev. Why do any of us go faster than we should, eh? I think you've discussed at length on the board here about riding in quite a spirited and capable manner on curvy roads - here referring specifically to your mention of being able to ride the V7 as quickly as your wife's Monster. Heck, I've even read on here testimonies of admiration from folks who tried to follow you, they admiring your riding skills/ability to ride slow bikes quite fast on backroads and that sorta jazz. And surely you were betraying some measure of safety and speed limits then? Are you saying that riding 90 on the highway in a straight line is more dangerous than scraping a peg, daring blind corners, gravel, etc.?
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But Kev. Why do any of us go faster than we should, eh? I think you've discussed at length on the board here about riding in quite a spirited and capable manner on curvy roads - here referring specifically to your mention of being able to ride the V7 as quickly as your wife's Monster. Heck, I've even read on here testimonies of admiration from folks who tried to follow you, they admiring your riding skills/ability to ride slow bikes quite fast on backroads and that sorta jazz. And surely you were betraying some measure of safety and speed limits then? Are you saying that riding 90 on the highway in a straight line is more dangerous than scraping a peg, daring blind corners, gravel, etc.?
It's just my personal risk vs. reward evaluation.
To be clear, I'm not making a judgment call for anyone other than myself or trying to suggest that you should agree with me.
And I'm NOT saying people need to take no risks at all in their lives. We pick and chose what's worth it to us - just riding motorcycles in general means we're picking. Skiing/Snowboarding, Boating/Diving, hell, Karate, etc. all have some risks involved.
Just going fast in a straight line requires no skill and doesn't really provide me any thrill. I may cite 1/4 times as a metric of performance capability, but though I live only what 10 miles or so from a drag strip now (Atco), I don't see myself ever attending to watch or run something. It's short attention span theatre to me (even if I realize there's a lot of skill to a launch in that case).
To directly answer your question, I dunno what is more "dangerous" riding curves at speeds above the speed limit or riding highways for extended periods above the speed limits? The hazards are different, but so are the speeds. I mean even if I top out a 70 on a sweeping curve is that as dangerous as what might occur from an incident at 100+ on a straight away?
But at least the curve was fun.
I should probably add that I limit my speed on blind corners and I try to make sure I know if there is (or might be gravel). I go deep and look through them, and if I can see or tell to my satisfaction then I just slow down.
And coming full circle back to Harleys, I can have a lot of fun in a curve on a Harley at 10-20 mph slower than the same curve on say a Ducati. So does that make the Harley "safer"??? Potentially.
This also goes back to my recent 4-wheel purchase - a Jeep rather than a Focus RS/WRX. It's for the same reasons - not looking to go fast in a straight line and the Jeep is fun even AT the speed limit (go figure).
So yeah, I just have no NEED to do 90+ mph on the highway for any length of time (and every bike I own CAN do it for a short time if I wanted to).
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It's just my personal risk vs. reward evaluation.
To be clear, I'm not making a judgment call for anyone other than myself or trying to suggest that you should agree with me.
And I'm NOT saying people need to take no risks at all in their lives. We pick and chose what's worth it to us - just riding motorcycles in general means we're picking. Skiing/Snowboarding, Boating/Diving, hell, Karate, etc. all have some risks involved.
Just going fast in a straight line requires no skill and doesn't really provide me any thrill. I may cite 1/4 times as a metric of performance capability, but though I live only what 10 miles or so from a drag strip now (Atco), I don't see myself ever attending to watch or run something. It's short attention span theatre to me (even if I realize there's a lot of skill to a launch in that case).
To directly answer your question, I dunno what is more "dangerous" riding curves at speeds above the speed limit or riding highways for extended periods above the speed limits? The hazards are different, but so are the speeds. I mean even if I top out a 70 on a sweeping curve is that as dangerous as what might occur from an incident at 100+ on a straight away?
But at least the curve was fun.
I should probably add that I limit my speed on blind corners and I try to make sure I know if there is (or might be gravel). I go deep and look through them, and if I can see or tell to my satisfaction then I just slow down.
This also goes back to my recent 4-wheel purchase - a Jeep rather than a Focus RS/WRX. It's for the same reasons - not looking to go fast in a straight line and the Jeep is fun even AT the speed limit (go figure).
So yeah, I just have no NEED to do 90+ mph on the highway for any length of time (and every bike I own CAN do it for a short time if I wanted to).
:thumb: :1: I agree with everything you've said here. I certainly enjoy driving curves and such more than highway work. Me personally, however, I usually don't get any of those sweet curves on my daily commute consisting mostly of highways. And the curvy roads/routes I could take otherwise are usually clogged with morning traffic and would actually be more dangerous for me to take than the highway. So how do I get my biking smiles? Not doing 130, that's for sure. But it "might" be occasionally opening the throttle a bit more than I truly need to do on the highway. And just to bring this discussion back a bit, I would say if I am going to be doing what I just described, I would very greatly rather be doing it on my Guzzi than the Harleys I've driven. And yes, the number of Harley's I've driven are limited (older Sporty, newer Dyna).
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If I ride at 90 mph on my Cali the buffeting from the Touring windshield is so intense that I can't see straight. :tongue:
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If I ride at 90 mph on my Cali the buffeting from the Touring windshield is so intense that I can't see straight. :tongue:
Oh look at this. I see a whole Harley versus Guzzi accessories thread brewing. :popcorn:
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What I love most about the 1400 is it matters not weather your 1 or 2 up , it has the same power. You can set the cruise control at 90 mph and it will keep you right there regardless of hills or how loaded the bike is. They definitely sacrificed some top end speed for low and mid range torque. I think they got the gearing and tuning perfect for what it's designed to do. The quick revving nature of the Guzzi motor makes it still fun for a more sporting ride if you feel the need. Kind of the best of both worlds for a cruiser. I regularly take mine for a one and a half hour highway ride to visit a sister, cruise set at 85 to 90 mph and it never misses a beat, never needs to downshift or anything , it's like auto pilot. :thumb: :thumb:
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If I ride at 90 mph on my Cali the buffeting from the Touring windshield is so intense that I can't see straight. :tongue:
One word- lowers.
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I'm almost sorry to admit that I agree with everything you said. :shocked:
At 61 I agree. At 25 I wouldn't have. Back then I enjoyed doing 125 on the NJTPK at 6AM on a Sunday.
Six months ago I decided to crack 100 just for the hell of it and to prove something to myself. Unfortunately, I chose an unfamiliar highway to try it. Three lanes, weekend morning, very light traffic, so I decide to do it in the right lane. Just as I'm about to hit the magic 100, I'm passing a semi rig that's in the center lane. And guess what? Just as I'm about to accomplish my feat, I see that the right lane ends! Oh shit! Maybe there was a warning sign to that effect somewhere, but I was probably looking at the speedo at the time. Semi to my immediate left, and my lane ending into a highway shoulder that hasn't been cleaned of old tire recaps and other debris since at least the Nixon administration. I chose to slam the brakes and slide in behind the semi. Reality check. Butt pucker.
It's just my personal risk vs. reward evaluation.
To be clear, I'm not making a judgment call for anyone other than myself or trying to suggest that you should agree with me.
And I'm NOT saying people need to take no risks at all in their lives. We pick and chose what's worth it to us - just riding motorcycles in general means we're picking. Skiing/Snowboarding, Boating/Diving, hell, Karate, etc. all have some risks involved.
Just going fast in a straight line requires no skill and doesn't really provide me any thrill. I may cite 1/4 times as a metric of performance capability, but though I live only what 10 miles or so from a drag strip now (Atco), I don't see myself ever attending to watch or run something. It's short attention span theatre to me (even if I realize there's a lot of skill to a launch in that case).
To directly answer your question, I dunno what is more "dangerous" riding curves at speeds above the speed limit or riding highways for extended periods above the speed limits? The hazards are different, but so are the speeds. I mean even if I top out a 70 on a sweeping curve is that as dangerous as what might occur from an incident at 100+ on a straight away?
But at least the curve was fun.
I should probably add that I limit my speed on blind corners and I try to make sure I know if there is (or might be gravel). I go deep and look through them, and if I can see or tell to my satisfaction then I just slow down.
And coming full circle back to Harleys, I can have a lot of fun in a curve on a Harley at 10-20 mph slower than the same curve on say a Ducati. So does that make the Harley "safer"??? Potentially.
This also goes back to my recent 4-wheel purchase - a Jeep rather than a Focus RS/WRX. It's for the same reasons - not looking to go fast in a straight line and the Jeep is fun even AT the speed limit (go figure).
So yeah, I just have no NEED to do 90+ mph on the highway for any length of time (and every bike I own CAN do it for a short time if I wanted to).
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Here is reality. I enjoy a spirited ride on a curve-filled road and I enjoy riding out West where the speed limit is often 80mph, but...I'd really prefer to avoid unnecessary risks. For me, my Guzzi California answers these parameters very well. My Bonneville, too. Therefore, I believe I've selected the right bikes. YMMV...
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Mike makes an interesting point. Maybe the Harleys are more "content" at the pace of 65-70 mph or so. Whereas the Guzzis are still happy at the 70-90 mph pace.
I like a 65 mph pace when I'm in the mood, but a lot of times it needs to be 75-85 mph. The Stone can easily do that. Not so sure about the comparable Harley. But no personal experience with the Harley.
Know what? Maybe I should just rent a dang Harley so I would have some personal experience. With a rental Harley I would not have to worry too much about that rear cylinder overheating. :wink:
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Around here if you're not doing at least 80 on the interstate between Memphis and NashVegas you'd better watch what's bearing down on your 6. Made that run three times by car in the last two days.
In Arkansas I hit an indicated 100 mph on the street glide during a multi semi pass with traffic on my tail between Little Rock and Memphis. Not my usual mode of travel but it's a pretty barren highway in places.
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I'm almost sorry to admit that I agree with everything you said. :shocked:
At 61 I agree. At 25 I wouldn't have. Back then I enjoyed doing 125 on the NJTPK at 6AM on a Sunday.
Six months ago I decided to crack 100 just for the hell of it and to prove something to myself. Unfortunately, I chose an unfamiliar highway to try it. Three lanes, weekend morning, very light traffic, so I decide to do it in the right lane. Just as I'm about to hit the magic 100, I'm passing a semi rig that's in the center lane. And guess what? Just as I'm about to accomplish my feat, I see that the right lane ends! Oh shit! Maybe there was a warning sign to that effect somewhere, but I was probably looking at the speedo at the time. Semi to my immediate left, and my lane ending into a highway shoulder that hasn't been cleaned of old tire recaps and other debris since at least the Nixon administration. I chose to slam the brakes and slide in behind the semi. Reality check. Butt pucker.
Ha ha, Fwiw, I'm no saint.
Ask me offline what my wife's Ducati will do on the long straight, flat, roads in/around the Wharton forest.
It's part of why I sold the Buell after moving here a little over a year ago.
I'm a slow learner, but I'm finally starting to understand myself.
And I still GET the thrill, but chose instead to find other paths.
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Smith, give it a try sometime, or just stop by if you make it this way. Just remember they are surprisingly different from model line to model line.
Around here if you're not doing at least 80 on the interstate between Memphis and NashVegas you'd better watch what's bearing down on your 6. Made that run three times by car in the last two days.
Ya know, I hear that sort of thing from time-to-time but my experience differs a bit. I've ridden in LA, NYC, Philly, DC, Atlanta and many of them on their highways and beltways in rush hour. I have found that I can easily go 5-10 mph below traffic if I stick to the right lane (leftish portion of lane) and create sorta an eddy in the traffic flow.
Yeah, if you take the middle or left lanes in that kind of traffic and speed but go too slow, yeah, it's a problem. But if you stay right, I've never had a lick of a problem.
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I rarely ride on Interstates but when I do it's always a bit faster than traffic keep away from the packs of cars/trucks. That usually means about 75-80 MPH......My 97 Buell with it's rubber mounted Sportster engine gets smooth at 60 mph (3000 rpm in 5th) and very smooth at 80.. And at those speeds it responds instantly to a slight twist of the throttle. At 4500 rpm the engine through it's two into one exhaust takes on a sound like a big V-8 with radial aircraft engine overtones...My Walter Mitty inner self images flying a WW2 P&W 2800 powered Corsair...Duck down and twist to the stop ,the bikes bike pulls steady to about 125-130 when you feel the RPM limiter .... Backing down the exhaust crackling on the over run, eyes watering ,nose dripping I'm grinning like an idiot inside the helmet....it's still a rush at 68 years old....
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I rarely ride on Interstates but when I do it's always a bit faster than traffic keep away from the packs of cars/trucks. That usually means about 75-80 MPH......
I understand and use that technique too at times, which brings me back to that 40-80 range I mentioned earlier.
If traffic is moving faster than that, I tend to switch to my right lane chill technique.
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I love nothing better than dropping my $4000 VII Sport into top gear at about 100 while passing a $30,000 Harley up a steep hill :bike-037:
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I love nothing better than dropping my $4000 VII Sport into top gear at about 100 while passing a $30,000 Harley up a steep hill :bike-037:
You know how few $30k Harleys there are? It's such a small number it's ridiculous.
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If Cal 14 tops out at "only" 117 mph, it makes me wonder if that is electronically limited.
Based on the numbers, it should be faster than a Tonti California.
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I love nothing better than dropping my $4000 VII Sport into top gear at about 100 while passing a $30,000 Harley up a steep hill :bike-037:
Yeah , except in my case it is a $1200.00 Jackal doing the deed :evil:
Dusty
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If Cal 14 tops out at "only" 117 mph, it makes me wonder if that is electronically limited.
Based on the numbers, it should be faster than a Tonti California.
Those figures are likely for the touring version. That windshield is likely to slow things down...
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You know how few $30k Harleys there are? It's such a small number it's ridiculous.
I guess it depends on whether you add in the farkles and the fringe...
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I guess it depends on whether you add in the farkles and the fringe...
My nephew the HD salesman sells a lot of $30K bikes , or did before the oil patch went udders up here in Oklahoma . He says the reason you never see them is because they never leave the garage .
Dusty
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There are many 30K HDs around Chicago. I see them often all summer long. Sure there are many more than are well under 30k, but to say the number is "ridiculous" is incorrect.
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There are many 30K HDs around Chicago. I see them often all summer long. Sure there are many more than are well under 30k, but to say the number is "ridiculous" is incorrect.
30k would be a well equipped hog.
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I've been riding Harleys for decades. I've belonged to Hog and ABATE chapters, I've helped run a toy run with tens of thousands of Harleys in attendance. I've got some well heeled Harley riding friends etc.
The number of $30k Harleys I've encountered is ridiculously low.
That's not too say they don't exist, but the chances you see one on the road is pretty low.
Not compared to the couple of million that are <$20k.
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30k would be a well equipped hog.
Almost any CVO model will come in at more than $30K . You might be surprised at how many $24K Electro Luxes , er , well something like that , leave the dealers blinged out to $28K .
Dusty
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Wait a minute. Top speed on a Cali 1400 is only 117mph? :shocked:
Didn't expect Panigale numbers, still surprising though it doesn't mean much to me in general. Kinda like this thread. :thumb:
It'll beak 120 mph. Redline limited. And, it pulls strong all the way to the end.
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Almost any CVO model will come in at more than $30K . You might be surprised at how many $24K Electro Luxes , er , well something like that , leave the dealers blinged out to $28K .
Dusty
Don't forget the Geezer Glides.! :popcorn:
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Almost any CVO model will come in at more than $30K . You might be surprised at how many $24K Electro Luxes , er , well something like that , leave the dealers blinged out to $28K .
Dusty
CVO's are very limited production.
And $24-28k ain't $30k.
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A new Road Glide is 25k now. :popcorn:
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CVO's are very limited production.
And $24-28k ain't $30k.
Limited production maybe , but my nephew sold three CVO models to one guy , in one year . How does one turn a $24K HD into a $60K HD ? Finance it through HD at 21.99 % for seven years :shocked:
Dusty
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Visually, I see some HD offerings that are very interesting. Psychologically, I enjoy the lack of any perceived obligation to wear a black leather vest with patches pledging allegiance.
I like the sportster.
KevM- does the perception exist among HD owners that the sporty isn't a "real" Harley? Like the Porsche guys who didn't regard the 944/928 as a "real" Porsche. . . I don't have any local acquaintances who move in both circles, so I'm not sure who to ask.
I occasionally see some sporty's that strike me as a good platform to personalize beyond simply bolting on chrome farkles and wake-the-dead exhausts.
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Don't forget the Geezer Glides.! :popcorn:
I see more HD trikes than ever before too, and they're north of 30K.
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I've been riding Harleys for decades. I've belonged to Hog and ABATE chapters, I've helped run a toy run with tens of thousands of Harleys in attendance. I've got some well heeled Harley riding friends etc.
The number of $30k Harleys I've encountered is ridiculously low.
That's not too say they don't exist, but the chances you see one on the road is pretty low.
Not compared to the couple of million that are <$20k.
Numbers sold or how many _you've_ encountered has no bearing on kiwi_roy's post that he has passed one and that he enjoyed doing it. Just sayin' :grin:
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you can bet Harley sell more bikes in the US costing <$30k than they they do >$8k.
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I like the sportster.
KevM- does the perception exist among HD owners that the sporty isn't a "real" Harley? Like the Porsche guys who didn't regard the 944/928 as a "real" Porsche. . . I don't have any local acquaintances who move in both circles, so I'm not sure who to ask.
I occasionally see some sporty's that strike me as a good platform to personalize beyond simply bolting on chrome farkles and wake-the-dead exhausts.
Absolutely, though there are so many sub sets of snobbery it's not funny.
Shovelhead And Ironhead guys look down on EVOs, who look down on TCs, baggers look down on choppers, Solidmount sporty guys look down on rubbermounts, carb on EFI....
Now it's only a segment of morons, but they're the stereotypes.
George, no actually, my experience is our good friend probably, like many who poke fun at Harleys, wouldn't know one model from another, nor a $30k one from a $15k one and made the joke mostly out of his misconceptions.
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you can bet Harley sell more bikes in the US costing <$30k than they they do >$8k.
One of those symbols is backwards and in betting the third.
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< and > need to switch places.
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you can bet Harley sell more bikes in the US costing <$30k than they they do >$8k.
I wouldn't be surprised if Harley sold more $30K bikes than the total number of new Guzzi's sold in this country in the same year.
Bob
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< and > need to switch places.
Harley sells more Sportsters, Dynas, VRods, and Softails combined than Dressers and only a very small number of CVOs.
And since only SOME HIGHLY OPTIONED/ACCESSORIZED dressers and CVOs reach $30k+ (actually almost nothing else breaks $20k in the lineup), then no the VAST MAJORITY of bikes they sell are <$30k, probably <$20-25k.
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Here's the 2014 SG Special I rented. Put about 650 miles on in two days. I'll wait till I'm not covering the kids tuition then buy a three year old with < 3,000 miles. Superb bike.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/eroman/DSCF1620.jpg)
Tobit
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I took a Road Glide like that one for a test ride. Pretty nice bike. Not as sporty as a Cal 14 but well balanced, comfortable and competent.
In fact, I liked it better than the Indians, Victories, and Harley CVO (hot rod engine shook like a jackhammer) that I had test ridden. The Cal was faster and bit sportier but the RG was better than the others and the Ergos were very close. (The RG and Cal had the "least cruiser-ist" riding position.)
Now for a really nice touring bike, I liked the R1200RT (liquid cooled). Ashame that Guzzi can't make Cal 14 in the RT class.
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Harley sells more Sportsters, Dynas, VRods, and Softails combined than Dressers and only a very small number of CVOs.
And since only SOME HIGHLY OPTIONED/ACCESSORIZED dressers and CVOs reach $30k+ (actually almost nothing else breaks $20k in the lineup), then no the VAST MAJORITY of bikes they sell are <$30k, probably <$20-25k.
I still don't think they sell more under 8K bikes than over 30K bikes.
I also think there are more CVO bikes sold than we realize. CVO bikes have blown past that 30K figure. Some are now just a few hundred dollars under FORTY THOUSAND.
Let's not forget to add all the extras like chrome and performance items that most buyers add in thousand dollar + chunks to a new bike purchase. Take a $25,000 bike and add the extra chrome and performance goodies, the tax, title, registration fees, the new helmet, jacket, gloves and sunglasses that are 'required' with a new bike... not to mention that there aren't many 'stripped' models on the showroom floor nowadays, you almost have to take a bike with some options already installed... and I'm not even touching the finance rates.... and I bet we all pass many more 30K Harleys than we realize. :wink:
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Harley sells more Sportsters, Dynas, VRods, and Softails combined than Dressers and only a very small number of CVOs.
And since only SOME HIGHLY OPTIONED/ACCESSORIZED dressers and CVOs reach $30k+ (actually almost nothing else breaks $20k in the lineup), then no the VAST MAJORITY of bikes they sell are <$30k, probably <$20-25k.
Not really. There are H-D 'stock' dressers that start at 19K and there are some stock dresser models before being accessorized at 26K.
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George my friend, are you deliberately being obtuse, you just Straw Manned most of that reply.
No one is saying they sell much of anything below $8k and I already accounted for all of the dressers in my reply.
The dressers account for about ~40% of their sales or a little less. The CVO's for a very very small percentage as they are, by design, limited editions.
All their other bikes have MSRP'S in the $6-19k range and only a handful of the twenty something other models approach that $19k number.
Sportsters alone account for about 20% of their sales and those are only $8-12k.
That means more than 50% and probably approaching 60% of their bike sales in the US cost UNDER $20k, and even if a few of THOSE are accessorized up to $25k that STILL ISN'T $30K.
SO EVEN IF EVERY DRESSER WAS ACCESSORIZED TO $30K, THAT WOULD STILL REPRESENT 40% OR LESS OF THEIR SALES.
But there's no way that anything near 100% of their dresser sales carry an additional $5-10k in accessories so it's a silly argument.
So again, the VAST MAJORITY OF THEIR SALES ARE BELOW $30K, probably below $20 or at least $25k.
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I strongly suspect that if I walked into a dealer with a full faced helmet and an Aerostitch on, and wanted to test ride one, they wouldn't let me.
:boozing:
Yet another reason that I currently have little interest in them.
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PS, did you really try to roll the costs of helmets and jackets into the vehicle price?
Oh brother
And
not to mention that there aren't many 'stripped' models on the showroom floor nowadays, you almost have to take a bike with some options already installed...
No, not anywhere near Philadelphia nor the dozens of other dealerships I've visited along the East Coast this past decade.
Forcing Pre-accessorized stock on the buyers around here pretty much ended with the end of the waiting lists more than a decade ago. And even in those years MOST around here didn't do it.
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I strongly suspect that if I walked into a dealer with a full faced helmet and an Aerostitch on, and wanted to test ride one, they wouldn't let me.
No, they have a corporate policy that says you can test ride any bike on the floor. Assuming you have a license.
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Kev my friend, and I do mean that, but you're missing what I said. Or you're just trying to make an argument where there is none. Or your public school math is worse than mine is. I'm only saying (it's in my last sentence of my post) that we probably pass more 30K bikes than we realize. That's it. Period. I'm not saying they're most of what Harley sells or this or that category is 40% or whatever of sales. And some CVO models are now touching 40K so, it's not that hard for them to be over 30K. (See, simple math again)
And on some bike rides and bike nights, I have been surprised that I've seen quite a few of those CVO models. And, AFAIK, I've never seen anyone on a current model that sold for less than 8K.
And again, I'm not saying 'most' or hard numbers, but some dressers do start at a base of 25K as well as 18-19K.
George my friend, are you deliberately being obtuse, you just Straw Manned most of that reply.
No one is saying they sell much of anything below $8k and I already accounted for all of the dressers in my reply.
The dressers account for about ~40% of their sales or a little less. The CVO's for a very very small percentage as they are, by design, limited editions.
All their other bikes have MSRP'S in the $6-19k range and only a handful of the twenty something other models approach that $19k number.
Sportsters alone account for about 20% of their sales and those are only $8-12k.
That means more than 50% and probably approaching 60% of their bike sales in the US cost UNDER $20k, and even if a few of THOSE are accessorized up to $25k that STILL ISN'T $30K.
SO EVEN IF EVERY DRESSER WAS ACCESSORIZED TO $30K, THAT WOULD STILL REPRESENT 40% OR LESS OF THEIR SALES.
But there's no way that anything near 100% of their dresser sales carry an additional $5-10k in accessories so it's a silly argument.
So again, the VAST MAJORITY OF THEIR SALES ARE BELOW $30K, probably below $20 or at least $25k.
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PS, did you really try to roll the costs of helmets and jackets into the vehicle price?
Oh brother
And
No, not anywhere near Philadelphia nor the dozens of other dealerships I've visited along the East Coast this past decade.
Forcing Pre-accessorized stock on the buyers around here pretty much ended with the end of the waiting lists more than a decade ago. And even in those years MOST around here didn't do it.
The helmets and jackets inclusion was a tongue-in-check dig at some HD dentists, er.. buyers. I apologize if it didn't come through that way. I need a few more smileycons.
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Ok, that's very good that that has been your experience. Again, like I tried to get across to you on another thread, other people with other experiences are not automatically wrong.
PS, did you really try to roll the costs of helmets and jackets into the vehicle price?
Oh brother
And
No, not anywhere near Philadelphia nor the dozens of other dealerships I've visited along the East Coast this past decade.
Forcing Pre-accessorized stock on the buyers around here pretty much ended with the end of the waiting lists more than a decade ago. And even in those years MOST around here didn't do it.
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Fair enough George, it would be silly for me to continue the argument.
I see your points.
And really, I do think the original comment was more born from a lack of familiarity with Harley than anything else. And obviously it was tongue in cheek anyway and not trying to necessarily be a factual statement.
For my part I like to dispell myths and preconceptions about Harley so I took up the challenge.
Of course, the original statement could have been entirely accurate and not born of lack of familiarity... At least that is if he was speaking in Canadian dollars and export market prices.. :wink:
Oh, also, the comment on experience is a good one. But I'd counter that one's experience can prove that another's experience is at least not a universal truth. That does of course cut both ways and I recognize that as well. The debates pursue when both people feel their experience is the more common or representative reality.
Ride safe my friend,
Kev
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No, they have a corporate policy that says you can test ride any bike on the floor. Assuming you have a license.
That may be a 'policy', but when a dealer won't sell anything to me because I rode up on a non-HD, I'm out.
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Potato ??????????
Dusty
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:thumb:
Yes, it would be silly because there's no basis for an "argument"! That's what I keep telling you! :grin: :wink: :kiss:
Fair enough George, it would be silly for me to continue the argument.
I see your points.
And really, I do think the original comment was more born from a lack of familiarity with Harley than anything else. And obviously it was tongue in cheek anyway and not trying to necessarily be a factual statement.
For my part I like to dispell myths and preconceptions about Harley so I took up the challenge.
Of course, the original statement could have been entirely accurate and not born of lack of familiarity... At least that is if he was speaking in Canadian dollars and export market prices.. :wink:
Oh, also, the comment on experience is a good one. But I'd counter that one's experience can prove that another's experience is at least not a universal truth. That does of course cut both ways and I recognize that as well. The debates pursue when both people feel their experience is the more common or representative reality.
Ride safe my friend,
Kev
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Can you imagine the response if this same topic was posted on H.D forum?
Moto Guzzi....what's that. ;-)
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That may be a 'policy', but when a dealer won't sell anything to me because I rode up on a non-HD, I'm out.
I can't believe that still happens anywhere today.
I've a long history of riding BMWs and Guzzis to Harley dealers.
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CVO's are very limited production.
And $24-28k ain't $30k.
There are no current CVOs for anywhere close to sub 30K. You likely can still find a discontinued 15 Soft Tail DLX with a list of 29K on the floor, however. But not counting the CVO line, there are still several HDs that list very close to 30K, before taxes and freight.
Road Glide Ultra 27K
Ultra LTD 27,700 with premium paint
Ultra LTD low 28,600 with premium paint
And of course the Ultra trike exceeds 30k
I suspect its safe to say HD sells more of these four motorcycles this year, than Guzzi will sell of its entire line in NA.
I still stand by the notion that HD sells just a relative few plus 30K bikes, is "ridiculous".
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There are no current CVOs for anywhere close to sub 30K. You likely can still find a discontinued 15 Soft Tail DLX with a list of 29K on the floor, however. But not counting the CVO line, there are still several HDs that list very close to 30K, before taxes and freight.
Road Glide Ultra 27K
Ultra LTD 27,700 with premium paint
Ultra LTD low 28,600 with premium paint
And of course the Ultra trike exceeds 30k
I suspect its safe to say HD sells more of these four motorcycles this year, than Guzzi will sell of its entire line in NA.
I still stand by the notion that HD sells just a relative few plus 30K bikes, is "ridiculous".
You miss quoted me. Perhaps I needed a comma between the accessorized dressers and CVOs.
I'm aware the CVOs are above $30k.
They're the ONLY BIKES HARLEY SELLS that have an msrp above $30k.
Everything else is below it.
I admit some dressers may be accessorized to the point they break 30k, but they are likely in the minority of dresser sales (how about we guess 25% of them).
So let's take a guess at hard numbers.
~250,000 bikes per year.
Fewer than 100,000 of them are dressers.
If 25% are optioned above 30k that's fewer than 25,000 (and I suspect that's a ridiculously high estimate).
Plus a couple thousand CVOs.
So maybe 27-30k bikes per year vs. 250,000 bikes.
Meaning maybe 12%.
Or stated another way, a "relative few ".
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I didn't miss quote you, I was referring to this statement, "CVO's are very limited production.
And $24-28k ain't $30k."
There have not been any CVO for for at least a couple years in the 24-28K range.
And ok I'm with you, maybe its even less than you suggest? Maybe its only 10%? Thats still a fairly large number right? Even if 1 in 10 of every new HD rolling off the lot cost more than 30K, thats thousands, apon thousands of bikes. I get you might not see them with the crowds your run into in PA, I think you likely associate with a bit more "serious" type of rider, just a supposition on my part. But around Chicago's western suburbs, I pretty confident in telling you the big price bikes have been selling in BIG numbers.
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I didn't miss quote you, I was referring to this statement, "CVO's are very limited production.
And $24-28k ain't $30k."
There have not been any CVO for for at least a couple years in the 24-28K range.
Ok I see the post you were quoting. The problem is those were two separate statements each answering a separate point that Dusty made.
1. CVO's being very limited production (therefore they don't represent a significant number of bikes over $30k even if they all are because they are so few).
And
2. He referenced dressers with msrps in the 20's, and my answer was meant that dressers which cost $24-28k ain't $30k.
I never said or meant to suggest any CVO was below $30, but I can see how a quick read of my post not in relation to his post which I quoted might make you think that.
And ok I'm with you, maybe its even less than you suggest? Maybe its only 10%? Thats still a fairly large number right? Even if 1 in 10 of every new HD rolling off the lot cost more than 30K, thats thousands, apon thousands of bikes.
No, you see that's where differ because thousands of bikes or not that's RELATIVELY few. That means if you went out for a ride and saw nothing but brand new bikes you MIGHT SEE 1 in 10 that cost $30k+.
And prices have only been this high for a few years, so every year you go back that number gets lower and lower.
And with 250-350k bikes/year for the past decade that 12% gets further diluted as smaller and smaller percentages of those sales were $30k+.
Now remember that Harley is only about half the US market, so that 1 in 10 number becomes 1 in 20 or less.
I bet when you factor the older bikes in we're approaching 1 in 40 or more.
I get you might not see them with the crowds your run into in PA, I think you likely associate with a bit more "serious" type of rider, just a supposition on my part. But around Chicago's western suburbs, I pretty confident in telling you the big price bikes have been selling in BIG numbers.
Perhaps that's it. And I'll have to take your word that you know what you're looking at and maybe you're seeing more.
Still, you understand why, especially with this crowd, I would tend to expect most wouldn't know one way or the other.
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Guzzi has what was stated before. "usable power". You can take $30K+ and bling out your HD or buy a Boss Hoss. A 502 ci or 350ci Chevy but not very usable more of a "bigger is better" butt jewelry statement.
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You miss quoted me. Perhaps I needed a comma between the accessorized dressers and CVOs.
I'm aware the CVOs are above $30k.
They're the ONLY BIKES HARLEY SELLS that have an msrp above $30k.
Everything else is below it.
I admit some dressers may be accessorized to the point they break 30k, but they are likely in the minority of dresser sales (how about we guess 25% of them).
So let's take a guess at hard numbers.
~250,000 bikes per year.
Fewer than 100,000 of them are dressers.
If 25% are optioned above 30k that's fewer than 25,000 (and I suspect that's a ridiculously high estimate).
Plus a couple thousand CVOs.
So maybe 27-30k bikes per year vs. 250,000 bikes.
Meaning maybe 12%.
Or stated another way, a "relative few ".
Tri Glide Starting at $33,499 :popcorn:
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In reply to your number 2.
"CVO's are very limited production.
And $24-28k ain't $30k."
No, you clearly said it, as quoted above, but I will give you that you meant otherwise, based on your claification.
I don't really want to go on and on, countinuing a point for point, point, counter point with you. I know, and I hope you do to, that capitulation must be very, very difficult for you to do. I feel like I have know you for years, not that we have yet met in the flesh, but over time we get a flavor for each others styles and personalties. And I think you know I like you, and respect your opionions. And if you have one small failing its your inability to admit when you have come up just a bit short. The thing is, your usually right, more so than I am, I will venture to say! And on those rare occasions when you're not, you hold on like a starving man to a slice of Chicago style deep dish!
I point this out here, now because I feel like I have clearly won this little pisser, but you will not concede. Knowing full well, that you will likely respond with more text of how you were right all along... But anyway I don't want to piss you off Kev, as I do feel you are a guy I know I could always depend on, and guy I know I would like to shoot the shit with on any given day. And, perhaps I'm a bit more like you than I want to admit, since I seem to be the one going on here about how I am right! :boozing:
Feel free to point out my failings, I have at least a couple, it's only fair. :azn:
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Tri Glide Starting at $33,499 :popcorn:
That's a Trike, not a bike, you can see why we're not discussing it.
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That's a Trike, not a bike, you can see why we're not discussing it.
OMG. Really? I sincerely hope you're just joking.
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In reply to your number 2.
"CVO's are very limited production.
And $24-28k ain't $30k."
No, you clearly said it, as quoted above, but I will give you that you meant otherwise, based on your claification.
I don't really want to go on and on, countinuing a point for point, point, counter point with you. I know, and I hope you do to, that capitulation must be very, very difficult for you to do. I feel like I have know you for years, not that we have yet met in the flesh, but over time we get a flavor for each others styles and personalties. And I think you know I like you, and respect your opionions. And if you have one small failing its your inability to admit when you have come up just a bit short. The thing is, your usually right, more so than I am, I will venture to say! And on those rare occasions when you're not, you hold on like a starving man to a slice of Chicago style deep dish!
I point this out here, now because I feel like I have clearly won this little pisser, but you will not concede. Knowing full well, that you will likely respond with more text of how you were right all along... But anyway I don't want to piss you off Kev, as I do feel you are a guy I know I could always depend on, and guy I know I would like to shoot the shit with on any given day. And, perhaps I'm a bit more like you than I want to admit, since I seem to be the one going on here about how I am right! :boozing:
Feel free to point out my failings, I have at least a couple, it's only fair. :azn:
I appreciate both the honest and the kind words.
I don't give up easily.
I AM wrong more often than I like.
I understand why you misunderstood the quote and took it out of context. It was lazy posting on my part, on the phone while watching my two little kids today while Jenn was at the hospital.
But yes, the two statements were meant to be separate, even if related.
I still feel it's relatively few based on the numbers we've discussed. If you don't or you see far more around you, I can concede both points.
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OMG. Really? I sincerely hope you're just joking.
Not joking. I certainly don't think the statement that started all this was someone bragging how their Tonti Cali was quicker than a Trike?
I'll have to check an annual report and see if they break those production numbers out or not.
I don't get the impression they would have any real impact on our projected percentages though. But I don't claim to have any real data on their sales yet, just my perception that it is pretty small in the big picture of Harley.
I certainly see many more Bombardier Spyders than I do Harley Trikes in a given time frame.
Edit -looks like they roll the Trike data into "touring" model sales figures. So we've essentially already dealt with it in our estimates.
http://investor.harley-davidson.com/mobile.view?c=87981&v=200&d=3&id=10560515
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Probably the main reason to like MG better than HD is that , to the best of my knowledge , there aren't women's unmentionables branded with the Moto Guzzi logo :evil: At least not the "official" logo . Sheesh :laugh:
Dusty
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:thumb: to those of you who deserve it! And you know who you are! :wink:
Kev, how about a name change to Tenacious K! You wouldn't be you any other way! :cool:
Ok, I give too, lets go on to the next oil thread!
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You think that HD could do something like this. i'd have to be careful no to get my converse laces caught in the sprocket- they're cool with that in Taipei, though.
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/12400690_10201340806958469_7863912640114000639_n.jpg?oh=e684c4acd9b8e6d207c704c99b29937d&oe=5708F963)
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Kev, Kev, Kev. Not this time you don't. The original statement was that he enjoyed passing the 30K Harley.
He didn't say he enjoyed passing the 30K two-wheel Harley.
Again, This whole discussion was about one guy enjoying passing one 30K Harley. Sales numbers were never mentioned until you did. The issue was not whether it is or isn't possible for all of us to pass one whenever we're out riding. And you repeatedly argue that there aren't that many 30K Harleys. Even after I, and another poster from Chicago said there ARE many. You also stated that they don't exist without many options. Then someone posts the MSRPs that prove you wrong, you mention small sales numbers again.
Whenever you make a wrong or difficult to defend statement in reply to one of our posts, you always turn it around on us and say things like "You miss quoted me" (when someone posts exactly what you said) How is that a misquote? And "I understand why you misunderstood the quote and took it out of context.." Two faults of the poster who didn't agree with you! Misunderstanding and taking something out of context! Amazing! Again, backpedaling and blaming the other person because you are never wrong. Those are just two examples, I read a few more, I just got lazy and didn't include them.
Not joking. I certainly don't think the statement that started all this was someone bragging how their Tonti Cali was quicker than a Trike?
I'll have to check an annual report and see if they break those production numbers out or not.
I don't get the impression they would have any real impact on our projected percentages though. But I don't claim to have any real data on their sales yet, just my perception that it is pretty small in the big picture of Harley.
I certainly see many more Bombardier Spyders than I do Harley Trikes in a given time frame.
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Kev, Kev, Kev. Not this time you don't. The original statement was that he enjoyed passing the 30K Harley.
He didn't say he enjoyed passing the 30K two-wheel Harley.
Again, This whole discussion was about one guy enjoying passing one 30K Harley. Sales numbers were never mentioned until you did. The issue was not whether it is or isn't possible for all of us to pass one whenever we're out riding. And you repeatedly argue that there aren't that many 30K Harleys. Even after I, and another poster from Chicago said there ARE many. You also stated that they don't exist without many options. Then someone posts the MSRPs that prove you wrong, you mention small sales numbers again.
Whenever you make a wrong or difficult to defend statement in reply to one of our posts, you always turn it around on us and say things like "You miss quoted me" (when someone posts exactly what you said) How is that a misquote? And "I understand why you misunderstood the quote and took it out of context.." Two faults of the poster who didn't agree with you! Misunderstanding and taking something out of context! Amazing! Again, backpedaling and blaming the other person because you are never wrong. Those are just two examples, I read a few more, I just got lazy and didn't include them.
I'm sorry if at the same time I assume most people here aren't familiar with Harleys enough to tell which few might cost $30k+ and equally I don't equate motorcycles with trikes.
But if it will make you happy, I'm wrong. There must be millions of $30k Harleys on the road, you've all seen them, probably often, especially those $30k Dynas, and VRods, and Sportsters... Ya know, those bikes that make up 60%+ of what is on the road with a Harley badge.
So you win, I lose, sorry I spoke up.
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Yeah, no ... just no.
I really have no NEED to be doing 90 mph even in a pass around here, never mind 100 mph, it just an un-necessary risk (not to say I haven't).
I've had plenty of bikes that CAN run a 90 mph all day, but it is extremely stressful between worrying about traffic, cops, and unexpected obstacles (poor pavement, debris, animals) that I really have no interest.
I suspect that's true in those little eastern states like New Jersey.
There are thousands of miles of roads in west Texas where the posted limit is 75 mph. Hell, most of I-10 has a posted limit 80 mph+. If you run less than 10 over the limit everything will pass you.
I've run some of those back roads for over a hour straight with the cruise on my Cali 1400 set at 90 mph.
A couple buddies and I were pulled over on HWY 90 just west of Hondo for going too slow in the passing lane (we were running 5 over the limit). Sheriff told us we needed to stay in the slow lane if we were going to run that slow.
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And the winner and new champion is ...
C'mon fellas , this isn't a competition , no medals or trophies to be awarded . There have been lots of interesting comments made , and certainly regional differences create some different perspectives . My guess is in the relatively dense population centers where Kev lives the percentage of smaller bikes is higher , and out here in the middle , even the Chicago area , the BT series is more prominent due to more wide open spaces .
Besides , everyone knows brand A sucks and brand B is wonderful :evil:
Dusty
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i like turtles
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i like turtles
Me too , and elephants :laugh:
Dusty
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I suspect that's true in those little eastern states like New Jersey.
There are thousands of miles of roads in west Texas where the posted limit is 75 mph. Hell, most of I-10 has a posted limit 80 mph+. If you run less than 10 over the limit everything will pass you.
I've run some of those back roads for over a hour straight with the cruise on my Cali 1400 set at 90 mph.
A couple buddies and I were pulled over on HWY 90 just west of Hondo for going too slow in the passing lane (we were running 5 over the limit). Sheriff told us we needed to stay in the slow lane if we were going to run that slow.
I understand the differences (even though I've only experienced them a few times). But my point was stay right and let em pass you. It's not a bad strategy.
Fwiw the one time I road coast-to-coast and back again was on an EVO RK. Meaning that based on power and gearing it was most comfortable in the 60-70 mph range.
I doubt most of the time I spent on say the 10 between AZ and LA was any faster, though I have run that same stretch back and forth on a press bike, like a Bandit 1200 a lot faster.
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You think that HD could do something like this. i'd have to be careful no to get my converse laces caught in the sprocket- they're cool with that in Taipei, though.
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/12400690_10201340806958469_7863912640114000639_n.jpg?oh=e684c4acd9b8e6d207c704c99b29937d&oe=5708F963)
This is a bad ass looking bike, speaking only about the aesthetic, intellectually I know it is powered by an atrocity of modern engineering but it does look the part.
What atracts me to the modern Moto Guzzi, 90 degree-V shaft drive, layout is that it is purely form following function. The cylinders hanging out in the breeze, exhaust cooled before intake, and each cylinder jutting out at proper angles for service, even on the road side if need be.
My continued affection for the modern Moto Guzzi goes back to the original design competition by the Italians for the military/police contracts back in the sixties. Harley Davidson couldn't compete then and they sure as hell can't compete now.
Skippy
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My guess is in the relatively dense population centers where Kev lives the percentage of smaller bikes is higher , and out here in the middle , even the Chicago area , the BT series is more prominent due to more wide open spaces .
No the bagger craze is full on here too.
On any given day I do see probably more baggers than anything else. Or maybe as many baggers.
Just I recognize that even today their line consists of something like 38 models.
https://m.harley-davidson.com/#bikes/index
And that even their regular touring line has 10 bikes, the first 6 of which sticker $19-23.5k.
The other 4 go from $24.7-27.3k.
Yeah, the CVOs are $30k
Yeah, there are 2 trikes $25.5k & $33.5k
I still think that most of what I see (even those aforementioned touring models) fall below (maybe close, but below) $30k on price, even with accessories.
Maybe TTT gets a few more closer.
But that's still ~30 of 38 models below $25k MSRP.
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it's rare around here (seattle) to see a stock harley. they always have bling grafted on and a stage 1-3 kit (pipes, goofy airbox, pipes, different cam profiles) which all adds up.
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Electra Glide CVO - $39,999
Road Glide CVO - $40,299
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Electra Glide CVO - $39,999
Road Glide CVO - $40,299
Wow , so Bob Newhart .
Dusty
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Wow , so Bob Newhart .
Dusty
I don't follow.
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I don't follow.
That was the point , seems no one is actually reading what is being written by others . Bob Newhart makes sense in this context . Sorry , my laughing emo isn't working .
Dusty
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Electra Glide CVO - $39,999
Road Glide CVO - $40,299
You left out 6 more models out of the 38 they sell (bike or Trike) that are $25k or above.
I mention $25k cause it seems reasonable that some might spend up to an additional 20% on "accessories/options".
Or we could list the other 30 models and prices from $7-24.7k?
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And mine is 8", at least that's what I have convinced my wife, since she seems completely inept at measuring anything at all!
Time to move on you dorks! Anybody see the new Star Wars?
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Time to move on you dorks! Anybody see the new Star Wars?
It was pretty good, better than it had to be.
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What was the question again?
Our two big H-D local dealers sell out of CVO bikes every year. I have no idea what that means but it's the only think I can add as I forgot the question. Ha ha
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Wow , so Bob Newhart .
Dusty
it's RPMs
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That was the point , seems no one is actually reading what is being written by others . Bob Newhart makes sense in this context . Sorry , my laughing emo isn't working .
Dusty
But obviously _you_ can't stop reading.... so we owe it to you to keep going!
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And mine is 8", at least that's what I have convinced my wife, since she seems completely inept at measuring anything at all!
Yeah right. More like if you didn't have a string attached to it you'd never be able to find it.
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But obviously _you_ can't stop reading.... so we owe it to you to keep going!
It's like a plane crash , with Bob Newhart as the pilot .
Dusty
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30 grand Harleys are no more outrageous than 50 grand PU trucks.... Do Harley's hold their value better than Guzzi as a percentage of the cost when new?
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30 grand Harleys are no more outrageous than 50 grand PU trucks.... Do Harley's hold their value better than Guzzi as a percentage of the cost when new?
Not figured by the pound :huh:
Dusty
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It's like a plane crash , with Bob Newhart as the pilot .
Dusty
I like the guy lot, but I'd never get on a plane where he's the pilot.
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Who is this Bob dude you old guys are talking about?
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Who is this Bob dude you old guys are talking about?
You younguns wouldn't understand his sophisticated humor anyway :rolleyes:
Dusty
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And one more day with Suzanne as a co-star, eh?
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I like the guy lot, but I'd never get on a plane where he's the pilot.
Kinda surprised no one has made the connection . One of Newhart's best early skits was a one sided phone conversation . All the audience hears is Newhart's side of the discussion , and had to fill in the other half . Funny brilliant stuff .
Dusty
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a one sided phone conversation.
Sounds like a lot of what goes on here too. :popcorn: :boozing:
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Sounds like a lot of what goes on here too. :popcorn: :boozing:
Yeah , those Arizona Cardinals are gonna ...
We are gonna need Magellan's navigator to locate the original question .
Dusty
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I might add Newhart was a great drinkin' game show. :boozing:
Paul :boozing: