What is more attractive to you about the Guzzi V-twin vs. the Harley V-twin

[George_S]

Don't forget the Geezer Glides.! 

I see more HD trikes than ever before too, and they're north of 30K.

[George_S]

I've been riding Harleys for decades. I've belonged to Hog and ABATE chapters, I've helped run a toy run with tens of thousands of Harleys in attendance. I've got some well heeled Harley riding friends etc.

The number of $30k Harleys I've encountered is ridiculously low.

That's not too say they don't exist, but the chances you see one on the road is pretty low.

Not compared to the couple of million that are <$20k.

Numbers sold or how many _you've_ encountered has no bearing on kiwi_roy's post that he has passed one and that he enjoyed doing it. Just sayin' 

[LowRyter]

you can bet Harley sell more bikes in the US costing <$30k than they they do >$8k. 

[Kev m]

I like the sportster. 
KevM- does the perception exist among HD owners that the sporty isn't a "real" Harley?  Like the Porsche guys who didn't regard the 944/928 as a "real" Porsche. . . I don't have any local acquaintances who move in both circles, so I'm not sure who to ask.
I occasionally see some sporty's that strike me as a good platform to personalize beyond simply bolting on chrome farkles and wake-the-dead exhausts.

Absolutely, though there are so many sub sets of snobbery it's not funny.

Shovelhead And Ironhead guys look down on EVOs, who look down on TCs, baggers look down on choppers, Solidmount sporty guys look down on rubbermounts, carb on EFI....

Now it's only a segment of morons, but they're the stereotypes.


George, no actually, my experience is our good friend probably, like many who poke fun at Harleys, wouldn't know one model from another, nor a $30k one from a $15k one and made the joke mostly out of his misconceptions.

[Kev m]

you can bet Harley sell more bikes in the US costing <$30k than they they do >$8k.

One of those symbols is backwards and in betting the third.

[George_S]

< and > need to switch places.

[Bonafide Bob]

you can bet Harley sell more bikes in the US costing <$30k than they they do >$8k.

I wouldn't be surprised if Harley sold more $30K bikes than the total number of new  Guzzi's sold in this country in the same year.
 Bob

[Kev m]

< and > need to switch places.

Harley sells more Sportsters, Dynas, VRods, and Softails combined than Dressers and only a very small number of CVOs.

And since only SOME HIGHLY OPTIONED/ACCESSORIZED dressers and CVOs reach $30k+ (actually almost nothing else breaks $20k in the lineup), then no the VAST MAJORITY of bikes they sell are <$30k, probably <$20-25k.

[Tobit]

Here's the 2014 SG Special I rented.  Put about 650 miles on in two days.  I'll wait till I'm not covering the kids tuition then buy a three year old with < 3,000 miles.  Superb bike.


Tobit

[LowRyter]

I took a Road Glide like that one for a test ride.  Pretty nice bike.  Not as sporty as a Cal 14 but well balanced, comfortable and competent. 

In fact, I liked it better than the Indians, Victories, and Harley CVO (hot rod engine shook like a jackhammer) that I had test ridden. The Cal was faster and bit sportier but the RG was better than the others and the Ergos were very close.  (The RG and Cal had the "least cruiser-ist" riding position.)

Now for a really nice touring bike, I liked the R1200RT (liquid cooled).  Ashame that Guzzi can't make Cal 14 in the RT class.

[George_S]

Harley sells more Sportsters, Dynas, VRods, and Softails combined than Dressers and only a very small number of CVOs.

And since only SOME HIGHLY OPTIONED/ACCESSORIZED dressers and CVOs reach $30k+ (actually almost nothing else breaks $20k in the lineup), then no the VAST MAJORITY of bikes they sell are <$30k, probably <$20-25k.

I still don't think they sell more under 8K bikes than over 30K bikes.

I also think there are more CVO bikes sold than we realize. CVO bikes have blown past that 30K figure. Some are now just a few hundred dollars under FORTY THOUSAND.

Let's not forget to add all the extras like chrome and performance items that most buyers add in thousand dollar +  chunks to a new bike purchase. Take a $25,000 bike and add the extra chrome and performance goodies, the tax, title, registration fees, the new helmet, jacket, gloves and sunglasses that are 'required' with a new bike... not to mention that there aren't many 'stripped' models on the showroom floor nowadays, you almost have to take a bike with some options already installed... and I'm not even touching the finance rates.... and I bet we all pass many more 30K Harleys than we realize. 

[George_S]

Harley sells more Sportsters, Dynas, VRods, and Softails combined than Dressers and only a very small number of CVOs.

And since only SOME HIGHLY OPTIONED/ACCESSORIZED dressers and CVOs reach $30k+ (actually almost nothing else breaks $20k in the lineup), then no the VAST MAJORITY of bikes they sell are <$30k, probably <$20-25k.

Not really.  There are H-D 'stock' dressers that start at 19K and there are some stock dresser models before being accessorized at 26K.

[Kev m]

George my friend, are you deliberately being obtuse, you just Straw Manned most of that reply.

No one is saying they sell much of anything below $8k and I already accounted for all of the dressers in my reply.

The dressers account for about ~40% of their sales or a little less. The CVO's for a very very small percentage as they are, by design, limited editions.

All their other bikes have MSRP'S in the $6-19k range and only a handful of the twenty something other models approach that $19k number.

Sportsters alone account for about 20% of their sales and those are only $8-12k.

That means more than 50% and probably approaching 60% of their bike sales in the US cost UNDER $20k, and even if a few of THOSE are accessorized up to $25k that STILL ISN'T $30K.

SO EVEN IF EVERY DRESSER WAS ACCESSORIZED TO $30K, THAT WOULD STILL REPRESENT 40% OR LESS OF THEIR SALES.

But there's no way that anything near 100% of their dresser sales carry an additional $5-10k in accessories so it's a silly argument.

So again, the VAST MAJORITY OF THEIR SALES ARE BELOW $30K, probably below $20 or at least $25k.

[Wayne Orwig]

I strongly suspect that if I walked into a dealer with a full faced helmet and an Aerostitch on, and wanted to test ride one, they wouldn't let me.



Yet another reason that I currently have little interest in them.

[Kev m]

PS, did you really try to roll the costs of helmets and jackets into the vehicle price?

Oh brother

And

not to mention that there aren't many 'stripped' models on the showroom floor nowadays, you almost have to take a bike with some options already installed...

No, not anywhere near Philadelphia nor the dozens of other dealerships I've visited along the East Coast this past decade.

Forcing Pre-accessorized stock on the buyers around here pretty much ended with the end of the waiting lists more than a decade ago. And even in those years MOST around here didn't do it.

[Kev m]

I strongly suspect that if I walked into a dealer with a full faced helmet and an Aerostitch on, and wanted to test ride one, they wouldn't let me.

No, they have a corporate policy that says you can test ride any bike on the floor. Assuming you have a license.

[George_S]

Kev my friend, and I do mean that, but you're missing what I said. Or you're just trying to make an argument where there is none. Or your public school math is worse than mine is. I'm only saying (it's in my last sentence of my post) that we probably pass more 30K bikes than we realize. That's it. Period. I'm not saying they're most of what Harley sells or this or that category is 40% or whatever of sales. And some CVO models are now touching 40K so, it's not that hard for them to be over 30K. (See, simple math again)

And on some bike rides and bike nights, I have been surprised that I've seen quite a few of those CVO models. And, AFAIK, I've never seen anyone on a current model that sold for less than 8K.

And again, I'm not saying 'most' or hard numbers, but some dressers do start at a base of 25K as well as 18-19K.

George my friend, are you deliberately being obtuse, you just Straw Manned most of that reply.

No one is saying they sell much of anything below $8k and I already accounted for all of the dressers in my reply.

The dressers account for about ~40% of their sales or a little less. The CVO's for a very very small percentage as they are, by design, limited editions.

All their other bikes have MSRP'S in the $6-19k range and only a handful of the twenty something other models approach that $19k number.

Sportsters alone account for about 20% of their sales and those are only $8-12k.

That means more than 50% and probably approaching 60% of their bike sales in the US cost UNDER $20k, and even if a few of THOSE are accessorized up to $25k that STILL ISN'T $30K.

SO EVEN IF EVERY DRESSER WAS ACCESSORIZED TO $30K, THAT WOULD STILL REPRESENT 40% OR LESS OF THEIR SALES.

But there's no way that anything near 100% of their dresser sales carry an additional $5-10k in accessories so it's a silly argument.

So again, the VAST MAJORITY OF THEIR SALES ARE BELOW $30K, probably below $20 or at least $25k.

[George_S]

PS, did you really try to roll the costs of helmets and jackets into the vehicle price?

Oh brother

And

No, not anywhere near Philadelphia nor the dozens of other dealerships I've visited along the East Coast this past decade.

Forcing Pre-accessorized stock on the buyers around here pretty much ended with the end of the waiting lists more than a decade ago. And even in those years MOST around here didn't do it.

The helmets and jackets inclusion was a tongue-in-check dig at some HD dentists, er.. buyers. I apologize if it didn't come through that way. I need a few more smileycons.

[George_S]

Ok, that's very good that that has been your experience. Again, like I tried to get across to you on another thread, other people with other experiences are not automatically wrong.

PS, did you really try to roll the costs of helmets and jackets into the vehicle price?

Oh brother

And

No, not anywhere near Philadelphia nor the dozens of other dealerships I've visited along the East Coast this past decade.

Forcing Pre-accessorized stock on the buyers around here pretty much ended with the end of the waiting lists more than a decade ago. And even in those years MOST around here didn't do it.

[Kev m]

Fair enough George, it would be silly for me to continue the argument.

I see your points.

And really, I do think the original comment was more born from a lack of familiarity with Harley than anything else. And obviously it was tongue in cheek anyway and not trying to necessarily be a factual statement.

For my part I like to dispell myths and preconceptions about Harley so I took up the challenge.

Of course, the original statement could have been entirely accurate and not born of lack of familiarity... At least that is if he was speaking in Canadian dollars and export market prices..

Oh, also, the comment on experience is a good one. But I'd counter that one's experience can prove that another's experience is at least not a universal truth. That does of course cut both ways and I recognize that as well. The debates pursue when both people feel their experience is the more common or representative reality.

Ride safe my friend,

Kev

[Wayne Orwig]

No, they have a corporate policy that says you can test ride any bike on the floor. Assuming you have a license.

That may be a 'policy', but when a dealer won't sell anything to me because I rode up on a non-HD, I'm out.

[oldbike54]

 

                                                   Potato ??????????

  Dusty

[George_S]

 

Yes, it would be silly because there's no basis for an "argument"! That's what I keep telling you!   

Fair enough George, it would be silly for me to continue the argument.

I see your points.

And really, I do think the original comment was more born from a lack of familiarity with Harley than anything else. And obviously it was tongue in cheek anyway and not trying to necessarily be a factual statement.

For my part I like to dispell myths and preconceptions about Harley so I took up the challenge.

Of course, the original statement could have been entirely accurate and not born of lack of familiarity... At least that is if he was speaking in Canadian dollars and export market prices..

Oh, also, the comment on experience is a good one. But I'd counter that one's experience can prove that another's experience is at least not a universal truth. That does of course cut both ways and I recognize that as well. The debates pursue when both people feel their experience is the more common or representative reality.

Ride safe my friend,

Kev

[Bonafide Bob]

 Can you imagine the response if this same topic was posted on H.D forum?

  Moto Guzzi....what's that. ;-)

[Kev m]

That may be a 'policy', but when a dealer won't sell anything to me because I rode up on a non-HD, I'm out.

I can't believe that still happens anywhere today.

I've a long history of riding BMWs and Guzzis to Harley dealers.

[bad Chad]

CVO's are very limited production.

And $24-28k ain't $30k.

There are no current CVOs for anywhere close to sub 30K.  You likely can still find a discontinued 15 Soft Tail DLX with a list of 29K on the floor, however.   But not counting the CVO line, there are still several HDs that list very close to 30K, before taxes and freight.

Road Glide Ultra 27K
Ultra LTD 27,700 with premium paint
Ultra LTD low 28,600 with premium paint
And of course the Ultra trike exceeds 30k

I suspect its safe to say HD sells more of these four motorcycles this year, than Guzzi will sell of its entire line in NA.   

I still stand by the notion that HD sells just a relative few plus 30K bikes, is "ridiculous".

[Kev m]

There are no current CVOs for anywhere close to sub 30K.  You likely can still find a discontinued 15 Soft Tail DLX with a list of 29K on the floor, however.   But not counting the CVO line, there are still several HDs that list very close to 30K, before taxes and freight.

Road Glide Ultra 27K
Ultra LTD 27,700 with premium paint
Ultra LTD low 28,600 with premium paint
And of course the Ultra trike exceeds 30k

I suspect its safe to say HD sells more of these four motorcycles this year, than Guzzi will sell of its entire line in NA.   

I still stand by the notion that HD sells just a relative few plus 30K bikes, is "ridiculous".

You miss quoted me. Perhaps I needed a comma between the accessorized dressers and CVOs.

I'm aware the CVOs are above $30k.

They're the ONLY BIKES HARLEY SELLS that have an msrp above $30k.

Everything else is below it.

I admit some dressers may be accessorized to the point they break 30k, but they are likely in the minority of dresser sales (how about we guess 25% of them).

So let's take a guess at hard numbers.

~250,000 bikes per year.

Fewer than 100,000 of them are dressers.

If 25% are optioned above 30k that's fewer than 25,000 (and I suspect that's a ridiculously high estimate).

Plus a couple thousand CVOs.

So maybe 27-30k bikes per year vs. 250,000 bikes.

Meaning maybe 12%.

Or stated another way, a "relative few ".

[bad Chad]

I didn't miss quote you, I was referring to this statement, "CVO's are very limited production.

And $24-28k ain't $30k."

There have not been any CVO for for at least a couple years in the 24-28K range.

And ok I'm with you, maybe its even less than you suggest?  Maybe its only 10%?   Thats still a fairly large number right?  Even if 1 in 10 of every new HD rolling off the lot cost more than 30K, thats thousands, apon thousands of bikes.  I get you might not see them with the crowds your run into in PA, I think you likely associate with a bit more "serious" type of rider, just a supposition on my part.  But around Chicago's western suburbs, I pretty confident in telling you the big price bikes have been selling in BIG numbers.

[Kev m]

I didn't miss quote you, I was referring to this statement, "CVO's are very limited production.

And $24-28k ain't $30k."

There have not been any CVO for for at least a couple years in the 24-28K range.

Ok I see the post you were quoting. The problem is those were two separate statements each answering a separate point that Dusty made.

1. CVO's being very limited production (therefore they don't represent a significant number of bikes over $30k even if they all are because they are so few).

And

2. He referenced dressers with msrps in the 20's, and my answer was meant that dressers which cost $24-28k ain't $30k.

I never said or meant to suggest any CVO was below $30, but I can see how a quick read of my post not in relation to his post which I quoted might make you think that.

And ok I'm with you, maybe its even less than you suggest?  Maybe its only 10%?   Thats still a fairly large number right?  Even if 1 in 10 of every new HD rolling off the lot cost more than 30K, thats thousands, apon thousands of bikes.

No, you see that's where differ because thousands of bikes or not that's RELATIVELY few. That means if you went out for a ride and saw nothing but brand new bikes you MIGHT SEE 1 in 10 that cost $30k+.

And prices have only been this high for a few years, so every year you go back that number gets lower and lower.

And with 250-350k bikes/year for the past decade that 12% gets further diluted as smaller and smaller percentages of those sales were $30k+.

Now remember that Harley is only about half the US market, so that 1 in 10 number becomes 1 in 20 or less.

I bet when you factor the older bikes in we're approaching 1 in 40 or more.

 I get you might not see them with the crowds your run into in PA, I think you likely associate with a bit more "serious" type of rider, just a supposition on my part.  But around Chicago's western suburbs, I pretty confident in telling you the big price bikes have been selling in BIG numbers.

Perhaps that's it. And I'll have to take your word that you know what you're looking at and maybe you're seeing more.

Still, you understand why, especially with this crowd, I would tend to expect most wouldn't know one way or the other.

[Tom]

Guzzi has what was stated before.  "usable power".  You can take $30K+ and bling out your HD or buy a Boss Hoss.  A 502 ci or 350ci Chevy but not very usable more of a "bigger is better" butt jewelry statement.