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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: canuguzzi on January 16, 2016, 07:21:08 PM

Title: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: canuguzzi on January 16, 2016, 07:21:08 PM
Does it make any sense from a business perspective for MG to just drop the 1200 8V engine and continue on with the small block and the big 1400?

That would mean no Stelvio or Norge but Piaggio has other brands with bikes that fill the ADV market.

If the ST market is going away as some here have said, that leaves only the Stelvio and Norge for the 1200 engine and with the Norge being discounted so heavily is it economically viable to keep it in the lineup? That's a rhetorical question.

Would there be a significant benefit to maintaining just the small and large and dropping the in-between?
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: John Ulrich on January 16, 2016, 11:45:02 PM
Why drop it?  The tooling and everything is done on it.  Milk it for many years to come to pay for the R&D years ago.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: JeffOlson on January 17, 2016, 12:02:58 AM
What about the Grisso?
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: molly on January 17, 2016, 04:31:43 AM
I hope they don't drop the 1200cc format. I personally want something that kicks out 100+bhp in a light weight package. If Guzzi could do that with a 1000/1200cc liquid cooled V twin with shaft drive that would be great.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: Doppelgaenger on January 17, 2016, 07:53:17 AM
Agreed with John, the tooling is already made and has to earn its keep. I'm sure they can some up with something to shoehorn the engine into that will sell for a while to come. It's a great engine, why trash it?

I really don't understand where this is coming from. Yes, sales right now probably suck...  But!

Don't forget that the V9 coming out. They're actually diversifying their offerings instead of divesting themselves. They've offered 850 versions of the Griso and B11 in the past that we don't get in the US, now the Roamer is coming which will probably sell well.

Ewan McGregor has also signed up to do a Panamerican trip with Moto Guzzi, which is sure to be on a Stelvio, and if the video that is sure to follow can do for MG what Long Way Round did for the BMW 1200 adventure I actually see MG getting a LOT more sales.

Now if only Piaggio can invest money into dealers and standing behind their products like a world class company should...

I can't see Guzzi not offering a big bore sport tourer or naked bike, they've been making them for so long... And while I haven't ridden the 1400 engine, I can't imagine that it has the livelyhood of the 1200cc engine. The fact that you can't mount it solidly to the frame says something against that
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: redrider on January 17, 2016, 08:14:38 AM
To my eyes, the 1400 lump is ugly. I would avoid buying a machine with that engine. No offence intended to those who own and love the thing. I prefer the square fin looks.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: bpreynolds on January 17, 2016, 09:06:41 AM
Wait a minute, I thought the Norge, Griso, and Stelvio had all been dropped from the new lineup? 

I seriously see Guzzi experimenting a bit with the 8V and water cooling in the same way BMW has done with their 1200 boxer.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: Travman on January 17, 2016, 09:45:24 AM
Wait a minute, I thought the Norge, Griso, and Stelvio had all been dropped from the new lineup? 

I seriously see Guzzi experimenting a bit with the 8V and water cooling in the same way BMW has done with their 1200 boxer.
Other than speculation heard on this site, has there been any credible information about any of these three models being dropped?
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: Kev m on January 17, 2016, 10:17:14 AM
The only mumblings I've heard were a question whether or not the 1200 8V could be made compliant with upcoming EU standards.

IIRC one poster with an excellent record of accurate inside info seemed to suggest no.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: Moto on January 17, 2016, 10:24:26 AM

Ewan McGregor has also signed up to do a Panamerican trip with Moto Guzzi, which is sure to be on a Stelvio, and if the video that is sure to follow can do for MG what Long Way Round did for the BMW 1200 adventure I actually see MG getting a LOT more sales.

I don't think this notion is based on anything more than one fly-by-night website's misreading of another's report of an offhand comment by McGregor. I base this opinion on having tried to track down the source back when this first came up.

Moto
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: LowRyter on January 17, 2016, 10:29:10 AM
if they can keep the weight down, they should upgrade the complete big block line with 1400 hi power engines.

Lower weight and 20% more power should be the goal.  If 1400 will do it, so be it.   :drool:
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: bad Chad on January 17, 2016, 10:33:04 AM
Other than speculation heard on this site, has there been any credible information about any of these three models being dropped?

No. Nothing what so ever.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: Daniel Kalal on January 17, 2016, 10:39:32 AM
Other than speculation heard on this site, has there been any credible information about any of these three models being dropped?

When in Mandello last year, I was told by the folks at Agostini that the Griso was not being built and would not be sold in 2016.  But, I've heard nothing similar about the Norge or Stelvio to indicate that they would not continue to be available.  Of course, that's not the same as being from a factor insider, but it is credible.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: JeffOlson on January 17, 2016, 11:04:26 AM
When in Mandello last year, I was told by the folks at Agostini that the Griso was not being built and would not be sold in 2016.  But, I've heard nothing similar about the Norge or Stelvio to indicate that they would not continue to be available.  Of course, that's not the same as being from a factor insider, but it is credible.

Yet all three of those motorcycles continue to appear on Moto Guzzi's website, including the Griso, and here it is 2016 already:

http://www.motoguzzi.com/motoguzzi/EN/en/bikes/naked/Griso/griso-1200-8v-Se.html (http://www.motoguzzi.com/motoguzzi/EN/en/bikes/naked/Griso/griso-1200-8v-Se.html)

I predict that Moto Guzzi will drop all three of those bikes from its lineup--some day--including all of the other bikes it currently makes.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: Daniel Kalal on January 17, 2016, 11:20:49 AM
Yet all three of those motorcycles continue to appear on Moto Guzzi's website, including the Griso, and here it is 2016 already

I'm  not sure it's 2016 in Mandello, just yet (they take a long holiday shut-down).  If you check the brochure on the link, you'll see it's still labeled 2015 and you'll see that the Griso is the only model not showing ABS.  They've not updated their website.

Of course, it's still possible...  (I hope so)
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: JeffOlson on January 17, 2016, 11:23:37 AM
^ Good point.

The Grisso still shows up on the USA website, but who knows (other than insiders holding their cards close to their vest).
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: Travlr on January 17, 2016, 11:55:22 AM
Why spend scarce dollars to: stock parts, upgrade to constantly tightening emissions and safety  standards, promote and warranty a line of bikes that aren't selling?

M
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: bpreynolds on January 17, 2016, 11:58:39 AM
Why spend scarce dollars to: stock parts, upgrade to constantly tightening emissions and safety  standards, promote and warranty a line of bikes that aren't selling?

M

 :1:  Great bikes all around but I just think to remain competitive in their given classes, the 1200 engine for all 3 - if kept - will likely need some kind of unobtrusive water cooling.  Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, I won't argue; I just think the company needs to go in that direction if they intend to keep that engine in those bikes.  I had this idea that Guzzi would drop those bikes, spend the next year promoting the new V9 and the California while developing a new 1200 water cooled engine. 
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: Travman on January 17, 2016, 12:54:15 PM
I'd like to see all three 1200 8V models get "upgraded" to 1400cc before their next redesign. That would probably get me interested in another Guzzi. I'd like them to keep the current style head covers though. I don't think the super large/finned head covers of the California 1400 would work on a Griso. Those covers are styled to look extra large in order to appeal to the cruiser buyer.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: Travman on January 17, 2016, 01:04:59 PM
Guzz should also make a smallblock 850cc Griso, Norge, and Stelvio. These new models could be a lot lighter than the big block models since the frames could be much lighter. 
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: canuguzzi on January 17, 2016, 01:27:10 PM
Guzz should also make a smallblock 850cc Griso, Norge, and Stelvio. These new models could be a lot lighter than the big block models since the frames could be much lighter.

That would appeal to a lot more people. :thumb:

The tooling costs have been paid one way or another long ago on the 1200. Its really an engine that is a size that puts the bikes that have it in direct competition with bikes that outclass it in performance. It has the character of a Guzzi but then so does the small block and they are trying to be something they aren't.

The middleweight market (used to be heavy weight years past) 800 <=> is on fire as is that weight class.

As many know, reduce weight and performance goes up. Without going through significant redesign, not that much weight can come off the 1200 engined bikes, they are what they are.

Sales number talk and everything else doesn't matter too much unless its an emotional effort to sustain some idea of what a motorcycle should be. There is plenty if that but how many of those who follow the idea buy new Moto Guzzi bikes? Very few.

Liquid cooling might create some market opportunities but that is a new engine, not a reworked 1200. If liquid cooling can also bring performance improvements, then that might even be more reason to dump the 1200 and move to liquid cooling in the small block and up the ante there.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: drlapo on January 17, 2016, 02:06:24 PM
I would consider a V12 standard style bike
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: bpreynolds on January 17, 2016, 02:07:48 PM
That would appeal to a lot more people. :thumb:

The tooling costs have been paid one way or another long ago on the 1200. Its really an engine that is a size that puts the bikes that have it in direct competition with bikes that outclass it in performance. It has the character of a Guzzi but then so does the small block and they are trying to be something they aren't.

The middleweight market (used to be heavy weight years past) 800 <=> is on fire as is that weight class.

As many know, reduce weight and performance goes up. Without going through significant redesign, not that much weight can come off the 1200 engined bikes, they are what they are.

Sales number talk and everything else doesn't matter too much unless its an emotional effort to sustain some idea of what a motorcycle should be. There is plenty if that but how many of those who follow the idea buy new Moto Guzzi bikes? Very few.

Liquid cooling might create some market opportunities but that is a new engine, not a reworked 1200. If liquid cooling can also bring performance improvements, then that might even be more reason to dump the 1200 and move to liquid cooling in the small block and up the ante there.

Yeah, a liquid cooled small block would be interesting, certainly, but I just don't see it on the horizon as they've already gone through the trouble of producing the new V9.  Guzzi - who generally moves at a snail's pace as per big developments - would not soon come out with water cooling on that bike nor even the 750 anytime soon after such a roll out on the Roamer.  But who knows.  I personally believe the V7 line has saved the company and that fact - that they've got a winner - and where they go with that in regard to any of their bikes could be interesting, is already interesting as I really like the Roamer.  So you've got this new bike and engine (V9) and then you've got the 1400, and then you've got the 1200 that is just kinda going nowhere but behind in its relative class.  My bets would be that engine is the first to get either nixed or redeveloped with water cooling.  And if so, maybe they'll take some of the styling cues that have proven so successful in the V7 line and apply them to the 1200.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: canuguzzi on January 17, 2016, 03:01:10 PM
Shoot, just an ADVer cross ST with the V9 would ring bells. The standards and cruiser mixups don't do much for me but I'd be all over a middle weight V9 engined alternative to the heavier Norge/Stelvio.

Horsepower? More would be nice but really, as long as it doesn't slow down when opening the throttles, good with what it shows to have. Horsepower you don't use is almost wasteful and so long as there is enough to not embarrass you...
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: PJPR01 on January 17, 2016, 07:15:15 PM
If I'm not mistaken, there was a European version of the Norge with an 850 motor in it...just not brought stateside.

How much more does the 1400 motor weigh vs. the 1200, are all of the other parts simply plug and play?

Frankly the Norge feels like it has the right balance of weight, power on demand, I'm curious what the 1400 would "feel" like in the Norge body...
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: ohiorider on January 17, 2016, 07:39:58 PM
Whatever they (Guzzi) do .... they probably need to trim down to:
- the new 850cc small block engine
- the 1400cc big block engine

This isn't what I'd like to see, but what I anticipate.

I would imagine that the 'compete with BMW strategy" with bikes like the Griso, Stelvio, and Norge  has very little appeal in the Piaggio boardroom discussions as of late, based on sales.

It appears to me that Guzzi is now interested in marketing:
- new small block bikes
- more 1400cc power cruisers

I'd say ...... go for it, Guzzi.  Doesn't make me happy,  but, making me happy, that's not your goal.

RIP CARC bikes.  I think with better quality control. and better marketing, you would have made a dent in BMW sales with your CARC line-up, and could have made a positive bump in Guzzi sales.

Too bad ... wonderful bikes ..... with superior engineering, but sub-standard marketing and post-sale support!

Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: Doppelgaenger on January 17, 2016, 09:18:31 PM
Guzz should also make a smallblock 850cc Griso, Norge, and Stelvio. These new models could be a lot lighter than the big block models since the frames could be much lighter.

Guzzi has done this with the Griso. They actually sleeved the 1200cc engine to reduce the displacement but retained the entire lump of bike so they gained next to nothing in weight savings.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: bad Chad on January 17, 2016, 09:35:56 PM
That was only done for insurances reasons in some E U nations, as i understand it.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: canuguzzi on January 17, 2016, 10:41:17 PM
It doesn't matter that the 1200 can run away from the 1400, it can't run away from the competition and that is what really matters.

If MG had double digit market share it could compete with itself, that isn't the case.

As good as the 8V 1200 might be, just because its a MG engine doesn't mean its the platform to move the sales numbers. Its no secret that the 1200 hasn't made a big splash. Will it make enough profit to keep itself as part of the lineup?

2014 Norge's are going for below $10K. That is less than the same model sold for nearly 2 years ago.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: Lcarlson on January 17, 2016, 10:50:19 PM
I've ridden the 8 v Griso, and was not particularly impressed. To me, the 1400 is a far better engine. In the cruisers, it can be ridden like a Harley up to 5000 rpm; above that, it's more like a Ducati (well, sort of, up to 7500 anyway). I've got to figure MG won't limit it to just cruisers though. It is a big motor, but consider this concept: a V7 II, upsized proportionally, to a V14. Interesting?
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: keener on January 17, 2016, 11:11:14 PM
Actually it does matter that the 1200 can out run the 1400 shows that it has the stones to run with a bike that many think a revelation.
I know of a Griso 1200 that can play hard against an R9T  especially when tuned properly and away from what Guzzi delivers.
the class of bikes that the Griso 1200 competes with arent above and beyond it and in many cases , as a all rounder the Griso out handles it competition .
Guzzi has never been a class leader in the HP wars , but as a all round motorcycle they excel..
Mid range roll on on the 1200 is awesome against many bikes , your Norge is a great example , the Griso is a better one with its gearing ..
Guzzi is and has always been its own worse enemy as far as marketing goes , hopefully by developing the 8v 1200 further they can show what is truly possible to do .
as for resale well...that makes for great deals on good used Guzzis for me and you..2013 Griso for $8200 is a sweet deal for anyone .
   
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: AH Fan on January 18, 2016, 12:51:40 AM
Own both 1400 and 1200 motors............. worlds apart in character and performance in my opinion.
Hope they are both around for many years to come........... :bow:

Ciao
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: omega1987 on January 18, 2016, 02:05:13 AM
Who really can excited about the V9 , its just a sleeved up old heron head design very similar to the V7 ..whoopee :embarrassed: both are anemic and no comp against the offerings from the competition ..they are just "pretty" cop outs and sold to please the bank..


I disagree, having rode both the outgoing Bonneville and W800 the v7 mill is on a par with its main rivals performance wise and the guzzi character plus shaft drive give it an advantage over the competition.

The reason I ended up with a Guzzi was simply because I was looking for a very reliable, fuel efficient and good handling motorcycle for touring/commuting. I chose my 750 over the Honda Dullville and NC750 after reading numerous accounts of high mileage Guzzis. Personally I think Guzzi just needs to make people aware that their bikes are as reliable if not more so than anything with a Japanese badge.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: Piglet on January 18, 2016, 02:26:15 AM
It looks like the 1200 CARC line may be on its way out?  Too bad.  I'd still probably buy a 2012-14 Griso.  I'm crazy about those bikes, but I just bought a '07 Breva V1100 last summer.  After removing the Power Commander and getting a re-mapping, it's finally fuelling satisfactorily if not perfectly.  Stock, the 2-valve bike was devoid of the torque they're renowned for, between 3-4000 RPM.  So many other bikes "fuel" perfectly right out of the crate.  Many new Guzzis do not. There's usually a whole lot of expense to put the pipe on, and remap etc.  Not so for many other makes that don't come stock with a hole in the power band...
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: Kev m on January 18, 2016, 02:42:20 AM
Who really can excited about the V9 , its just a sleeved up old heron head design very similar to the V7 .

No, it's a Hemi head.

Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: bpreynolds on January 18, 2016, 07:56:11 AM
I REALLY enjoyed the 8V motor in my former '11 Stelvio but it was a hottie, literally.  Water cooling, the likely resulting power boost, and the customary gadgetry (abs, traction control, cruise) and I'm telling you the bikes could compete on par at least with the Bavarian offerings.  The new water cooled Beemers that everyone generally is raving about (opinions, opinions) only make about 125 HP and they're hardly svelt - RS clocks in at what, like 530 or 540 dry I think. 

I also just don't buy the argument that Guzzi is becoming the cruiser wing of Piaggio.  Even Jap companies don't revamp their entire line in one year; Guzzi needs time.  It will happen I think.  Either the 1200 will get some version of water cooling or the 1400 will be modified into different genres of bikes. 
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: Kev m on January 18, 2016, 08:13:02 AM
I REALLY enjoyed the 8V motor in my former '11 Stelvio but it was a hottie, literally.  Water cooling, the likely resulting power boost, and the customary gadgetry (abs, traction control, cruise) and I'm telling you the bikes could compete on par at least with the Bavarian offerings.  The new water cooled Beemers that everyone generally is raving about (opinions, opinions) only make about 125 HP and they're hardly svelt - RS clocks in at what, like 530 or 540 dry I think. 

I think you're optimistic.

The RS supposedly clocks in a 520, the R only at about 505ish. But those are figures of a bike that has already gained weight with water cooling, the air/oil-cooled Nine-T is only 489.

So all things being equal you'd expect the Guzzis to gain 10-20# with water-cooling and they'd still have to increase hp at least 25% to remain competitive.

And water-cooling doesn't automatically equal a comfortable bike (no heat transmitted to the rider).

I also just don't buy the argument that Guzzi is becoming the cruiser wing of Piaggio.  Even Jap companies don't revamp their entire line in one year; Guzzi needs time.  It will happen I think.  Either the 1200 will get some version of water cooling or the 1400 will be modified into different genres of bikes.

I don't know if this is happening or not, but I can certainly see why it would make sense if you're Piaggio.

Much of the world look at Motorcycles as one of two things - Sport bikes and Cruisers. You could argue there are Sport bikes, Cruisers, Scooters, and maybe Dirt Bikes.

But you see where I'm going. They've GOT Sport Bikes covered by Aprilia, they've GOT Scooters covered, that leaves Cruisers for Guzzi.

And IF this is indeed happening, it hasn't been happening in just one year. The Cali has been out a couple of years now, the same with the V7...In that amount of time they've updated/revamped the CARC bikes HOW? Colors and ABS?

They've been putting all their effort in the V7, V9, Cali 1400 (now available in how many variants?).

And I can't think the valve train difficulties are helping the 8V motors either. That's a black eye that won't easily go away even if we all know that it is probably handled now. The rest of the world knows how to build a motor with hydraulic lifters, but once they got a black eye with it they abandoned the idea.

I don't have a dog in the hunt because the V7, V9, and Cali 1400 speak to me more than the rest of the line anyway, but I can understand those who see the writing on the wall as equally as I can those who are bummed at the idea.

Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: bad Chad on January 18, 2016, 09:35:04 AM
Your notions may turn out accurate. That being said, its often much harder to read the writing on the wall than one expects,  even more so when its in Italian!
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: Kev m on January 18, 2016, 09:43:09 AM
Your notions may turn out accurate. That being said, its often much harder to read the writing on the wall than one expects,  even more so when its in Italian!
Agreed. It's definitely speculation at this point.

Though I do put something in the report we've gotten that the current CARC models cannot make an upcoming EU emissions regulation because of the source (Dogwalker I believe right?).
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: vstevens on January 18, 2016, 10:11:37 AM

The reason I ended up with a Guzzi was simply because I was looking for a very reliable, fuel efficient and good handling motorcycle for touring/commuting. I chose my 750 over the Honda Dullville and NC750 after reading numerous accounts of high mileage Guzzis. Personally I think Guzzi just needs to make people aware that their bikes are as reliable if not more so than anything with a Japanese badge.
:thumb:
Me too.  After digging into the wild guzzi forum and reading about 100+k miles on a motorcycle... I knew that Moto Guzzi bikes aren't typically purchased as a passing fancy, not just a fad one goes through.  MG owners and riders seem to hold on to the bikes, learn their bikes foibles and idiosyncracies, and nearly have a relationship with them.  Often Long term. 

MG and Piaggio might do better if they advertised the longevity and durability of their motorcycles.  I'm sure other brands (particularly BMW) are very durable... but I'd be curios to see MG numbers in the way that Ford and Chevy advertise the durability of their trucks.

Unfortunately, the 1200 motor with the flat vs roller tappet issue might skuw (skew, skue?) the statistics.  And with so few bikes produced, small numbers of bikes can really affect statistics.

The styling of the V9 is growing on me but I prefer the V7.  The Cali 1400 bikes are cool... but heavy and wide...  Likely very comfy and great for two up riding.  The Griso, Stelvio, and Norge all 3 inspire a viscerality in me, even though I've only seen and sat on them, never ridden them. 

An advert with yet another good looking actor, or sexy Italian boy or girl posing on a motorbike isn't going to make me go out and buy another one...

That being said, I understand that Italian motorbikes are also selling 'beauty', and everyone appreciates beauty... life is too short not to.  And the power of association ... the bike and the actor... can be powerful.  Guess I'm just getting too old and ugly for that kind of marketing to work on me.   :laugh:
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: canuguzzi on January 18, 2016, 12:54:31 PM
If it becomes a PITA to buy something, only those that are fans already will go through the trouble to buy.

The typical motorcycle buyer can't see in person a Norge, Griso or Stelvio unless they travel. When they get there they also see the same bikes that are found locally and that isn't lost in buyers. People do think about service and if they make a trip just to see one they probably realize it is a trip for service.

If product isn't available customers don't buy. If customers don't buy sales go down.

At the end of the line is an idiot asking why sales aren't better. The idiot next to them says discount the bikes to move them, never challenging the other idiot. Then the two idiots get together and decide to put some actor in a bike and send them on a trip, as if anyone buying a motorcycle really cares.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: Dilliw on January 18, 2016, 01:19:31 PM
If it becomes a PITA to buy something, only those that are fans already will go through the trouble to buy.

The typical motorcycle buyer can't see in person a Norge, Griso or Stelvio unless they travel. When they get there they also see the same bikes that are found locally and that isn't lost in buyers. People do think about service and if they make a trip just to see one they probably realize it is a trip for service.

If product isn't available customers don't buy. If customers don't buy sales go down.

At the end of the line is an idiot asking why sales aren't better. The idiot next to them says discount the bikes to move them, never challenging the other idiot. Then the two idiots get together and decide to put some actor in a bike and send them on a trip, as if anyone buying a motorcycle really cares.

We begin by coveting what we see every day. Don't you feel eyes moving over your body, Clarice? And don't your eyes seek out the things you want?

-Hannibal Lecter
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: canuguzzi on January 18, 2016, 01:30:26 PM
I watched as Moto Guzzi toured the country with the MGX21 and Audace to conduct a focus group study. It was anything but prospective customer friendly.

For the same money spent, MG could send a team around the country with a Griso, Norge, Stelvio and V7 and conduct a get to know Moto Guzzi test ride affair. They could stop at places even where no MG dealers were there, just to promote the brand and get some attention.

Before that, they could get in touch with existing customers of current models and offer them some incentive to show upnas Ambassadors if a sort. Incentives hell, many would do it for nothing. But to help, given then a special logo hat or jacket or even high quality key fobs that no one else would have.

Put an ad in the major bike mags touting the event, that would generate huge collateral reviews if the bikes and free add on exposure.

This probably wouldn't cost more than the know nothing photographer they paid to go on the MGX21 thingy and the other guy that seemed more intent on preventing anyone from looking at the bikes than anything else.

Jump start and reboot the MG brand band appeal to today's motorcycle buyer. Pay some homage to the old but keep that where it belongs, in the past. Get the motorcycle buying customers to see the new Moto Guzzi.

Look what GM is doing with Buick. Well, this isn't farmer johns old Moto Guzzi, this is something new and special. Moto Guzzi is tied to the old like an overloaded boat heaving anchor, time to let it go.

Right now is the time for MG to really move the needle. If that means dumping the 1200 engine and concentrating on the two other engines, so be it but do more than let the 1200 languish as it has.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: keener on January 18, 2016, 07:58:38 PM

Right now is the time for MG to really move the needle. If that means dumping the 1200 engine and concentrating on the two other engines, so be it but do more than let the 1200 languish as it has.


you are correct...do more with the 1200 its the most advanced engine Guzzi has available currently.......... .
The other two are old school even more so than the 2 valve 1100 Breva /early Griso Carc models , and they are the best of the old design push rod engines , longest lived least amount of problems and adequate power, but they too are long in the tooth and discontinued .
that being said the 1200 especially from 2013 on with the rollersized heads are a treat when tuned properly and with good maps they are what Guzzi should be exploring , if you haven't yet taken the time to explore the torque and HP spec on the 1200  you should...taken further yet it could be awesome.
You have a 1200 8v Norge , from what you are on about you must be very disappointed , if the bike has issues with midrange  power or running in general there are available great maps , that will improve the performance greatly.
Try "Griso Ghetto" they are a great group dedicated to performance and for the most part the 1200 8v  engine.
   
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: MotoG5 on January 18, 2016, 08:05:36 PM
Could be for one reason or another they will. I own one and love it and will ride it until it either blows up, I cant get parts to keep it running, finally decide to get something else or I die. I don't care what it's resale value is. When or if I am done with it the resale will be nothing anyway. Every Guzzi I have owned was discontinued by the time I sold it over the last fifty years anyway. Oh yea and all of them were not only purchased but are still on the road. I guess in the end if the 8V goes the way of the loop frames there will be a spot for it in some museum some where if not at the factory. :grin:

 
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: ohiorider on January 18, 2016, 08:09:52 PM
After reading this thread, it makes me wonder ..... does Piaggio read these threads?  I cannot believe they read anything we post on this forum.  Of course, there's a lot of BS posted here.  There's also a lot of heartfelt thoughts about the brand, and it's sad to think no one reads our posts and considers them when they (Piaggio) make decisions on where to take the brand.

Of course, to be cynical, what do we know?  We simply buy Guzzis and ride the hell out of them. 

Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: keener on January 18, 2016, 08:15:48 PM
After reading this thread, it makes me wonder ..... does Piaggio read these threads?  I cannot believe they read anything we post on this forum.  Of course, there's a lot of BS posted here.  There's also a lot of heartfelt thoughts about the brand, and it's sad to think no one reads our posts and considers them when they (Piaggio) make decisions on where to take the brand.

Of course, to be cynical, what do we know?  We simply buy Guzzis and ride the hell out of them.

unfortunately .... Piaggio does not give a rats ass :wink:
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: rboe on January 18, 2016, 08:24:32 PM
"Moto Guzzi is tied to the old like an overloaded boat heaving anchor, time to let it go. "

This tradition is Guzzi's greatest strength and its' greatest weakness. They could embrace it and come out with a single and a V8.

Or they can go the route BMW went; in some ways that has worked for them, it others, not so much.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: canuguzzi on January 18, 2016, 10:25:14 PM

you are correct...do more with the 1200 its the most advanced engine Guzzi has available currently.......... .
The other two are old school even more so than the 2 valve 1100 Breva /early Griso Carc models , and they are the best of the old design push rod engines , longest lived least amount of problems and adequate power, but they too are long in the tooth and discontinued .
that being said the 1200 especially from 2013 on with the rollersized heads are a treat when tuned properly and with good maps they are what Guzzi should be exploring , if you haven't yet taken the time to explore the torque and HP spec on the 1200  you should...taken further yet it could be awesome.
You have a 1200 8v Norge , from what you are on about you must be very disappointed , if the bike has issues with midrange  power or running in general there are available great maps , that will improve the performance greatly.
Try "Griso Ghetto" they are a great group dedicated to performance and for the most part the 1200 8v  engine.
 

I have an updated map, great tune and my Norge runs great. The issues it has aren't related to engine, tranny or anything like that.

I said "languish" not meaning an engine perspective but rather over all design and update perspective. The engine itself needs nothing, the body it is wrapped in could use a serious diet and the upgrades would just be keeping a half step behind the market.

MG could leave the engine just as it. They could clean up the factory map but we already have great alternatives.

All the 1200 engines bikes are good, doesn't mean they couldn't be a lot better. Leave the engine alone, just pay attention to the rest of it.

MG doesn't need to abandon its heritage or tradition, just stop living in it because people buying new bikes want new bikes, not old bikes. The new Challengers, Mustangs and Camaros are good examples of ties to tradition and heritage without being tied to the past so strongly that moving forward is lost.

If the Norge isn't seriously updated they will sell less this year than last. Same for the Stelvio. 2013-2016 is quite a while to go without more than a color change. Sure, the FJR ST1300 and some other are in the same boat except they also started out with more updated equipment in the first place.

Look at it this way, I have a 2013 Norge and would buy a new bike. In have no issues preventing me from buying a new bike.

What am I going to do, buy a 2016 Norge that is the same thing except for some decals on the tank? There is no real future selling bikes to people and then not selling them another new one in a few years. Everyone else figured it out.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: PJPR01 on January 19, 2016, 11:35:51 AM

What am I going to do, buy a 2016 Norge that is the same thing except for some decals on the tank? There is no real future selling bikes to people and then not selling them another new one in a few years. Everyone else figured it out.

Who says you need to buy a bike every few years?  Some people like the bike they bought and are happy to ride it for 5-10 years or much longer, same with cars...why the overwhelming need to buy a new one every few years? 
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: canuguzzi on January 19, 2016, 11:44:09 AM
Who says you need to buy a bike every few years?  Some people like the bike they bought and are happy to ride it for 5-10 years or much longer, same with cars...why the overwhelming need to buy a new one every few years?

Overwhelming need? Where did that come from?

Why shouldn't anyone be free to buy one or as many motorcycles as they like, now there is some needs test?

You missed the point. If MG updated the Norge and Stelvio there would be repeat customers who might buy another because of the updates. Without the updates there is no incentive.

I have more than one car too. I might buy another this year. So what?
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: PJPR01 on January 19, 2016, 11:45:43 AM
Seriously?  Re=read your own post Pilot...just responding to the item I left in quotes... :grin: :grin: 
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: canuguzzi on January 19, 2016, 11:52:00 AM
Seriously?  Re=read your own post Pilot...just responding to the item I left in quotes... :grin: :grin:

It is called repeat customers, like those who buy an new truck or car that got updated from their model.

If MG updated the Norge or Stelvio, you might get repeat customers or do you think they are setting sales records by making the same bike year after year?

You don't think that if MG updated the Norge and Stelvio that there wouldnt be current owners who would upgrade?
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: PJPR01 on January 19, 2016, 12:02:22 PM
They might, but not always...sometimes a few model changes take place before a person upgrades.

Happens the same with car buying...even if one is capable and has the resources to buy a new one, there's no pressing need to do so...

Works the same for Motorcycles as it does for cars...and without doing any research or having and hard statistical evidence to support it, I would venture to say that people are keeping their cars and motorcycles longer today than a decade ago...just a hunch...could be wrong.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: canuguzzi on January 19, 2016, 12:04:29 PM
If MG updated the Norge to include traction control, selectable maps, an adjustable seat, adjustable bars, optional electronic adjustable suspension ( or just better), more adjustment on the windscreen, city bag option, I think plenty of current Norge owners would buy in.

Then instead of discounting them 6 thousand dollars, sell closer to MSRP and also create more demand.

Plenty of people buy a new bike every few years.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: PJPR01 on January 19, 2016, 12:10:47 PM
Ok then...maybe the data bears it out, but maybe it doesn't.  Dig up some stats and let's see the evidence.

Not all changes are necessarily improvements...we see this in cars all the time...not everyone who is an existing owner wants the newer stuff right away...maybe eventually, but not right away, so the brands have to appeal to new owners not only to existing owners.

The concept of a motorcycle being obsolete after 5 years doesn't make sense in its own right, it might no longer be interesting for the owner who might want to change to another brand or a bigger or smaller bike, but it doesn't always have to be a new bike, could be a used one.

I think just the premise of new features automatically driving repeat buying needs to be proven, it maybe more a case of a bike/car wearing out that triggers the purchase, not just the introduction of the new features.

Did Guzzi sales spike when the 8V engine was introduced?  Maybe one data point to look at and see if it happened.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: Kev m on January 19, 2016, 12:16:48 PM
I THINK what NP is trying to say (and if he is I would agree) is that vehicle manufactures NEED to constantly improve the product in order to drive a perception of NEED or at least WANT for new models.

That in order to protect and grow their market share that they must change things and offer something "more" whether it is to tempt an older customer to return for another or to tempt a new customer away from the competition.

But it is obviously the model that most vehicle manufacturers follow so there must be something behind it.

Certainly Harley seems to thrive on it.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: Dean Rose on January 19, 2016, 12:19:09 PM
If MG updated the Norge to include traction control, selectable maps, an adjustable seat, adjustable bars, optional electronic adjustable suspension ( or just better), more adjustment on the windscreen, city bag option, I think plenty of current Norge owners would buy in.

Then instead of discounting them 6 thousand dollars, sell closer to MSRP and also create more demand.

Plenty of people buy a new bike every few years.

Dream on, you realize that they still only make a fraction of what the other manufactures do.
I still believe that they were bought for their history not for their value.

Just glad to have the ones I do.


Dean
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: JeffOlson on January 19, 2016, 12:45:49 PM
Is there anything inherently wrong with the current 1151 cc engine, now that it has been "rollerized"? From my limited experience, there does not appear to be. It is sufficiently powerful, tractable, and fuel-efficient. It likes to rev, but it doesn't need high revs to launch the bike forward.

If Moto Guzzi has already paid for its development and tooling, why stop using it? It fills a nice hole in the current lineup: 744 cc, 853 cc, 1151 cc, and 1380 cc.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: canuguzzi on January 19, 2016, 02:25:47 PM
Nothing wrong with the engine Jeff. The bikes it goes into could use some serious updating. No matter how good the engine is, if the bikes it gets put into aren't selling really well, eventually it becomes a drain on resources.

Three bikes use that engine, none of them are big sellers.

Maybe the better question would have been, if the Griso goes away that leaves two bikes. If the Norge doesn't get a decent update, it will sell less and less, they will only sell them so low before they chuck the line. What that number is we don't know but the line is probably close.

I changed the title to reflect a better framed question since it is really more model rather than engine centric.

Then what? Somehow I don't see MG keeping a one bike line alive just to save tooling costs.

MG has to be looking at numbers real careful when in order to clear out Norge's they have to discount them over $6000.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: oldbike54 on January 19, 2016, 03:13:51 PM
 The Triumph Bonneville (Turner version) was built in response to the demand from America for more power . At its introduction , Turner stated that "this will be the bike that ruins us". It took a few years, but he was probably right . Somewhere in an interview he claimed he really wanted to develop a 500 CC engine with some basic refinements like a counterbalancer and aluminum cylinders . He said the money spent developing the first 650 CC and then later the Bonneville used up most of Triumph's development budget , so any other projects got put on hold . Too late was the Bandit/Fury design , and way underfunded , not what Turner envisioned back in 1955 . Bearing in mind that America represented about 40% of Triumph's total market share , and only 10% of MG's , maybe the mothership is attempting to learn from history , refine what you have , and don't listen to those silly Yanks and their insatiable need for HP and the latest tech  :laugh:
 
 Dusty
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: Kev m on January 19, 2016, 03:37:59 PM
Bearing in mind that America represented about 40% of Triumph's total market share , and only 10% of MG's , maybe the mothership is attempting to learn from history , refine what you have , and don't listen to those silly Yanks and their insatiable need for HP and the latest tech  :laugh:

IF that was true I don't think the MGX01 or whatever the heck it is called would even exist, and I have some doubt about the Cali 1400 Custom and Audace too. Not to mention the V9 Bobber...
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: oldbike54 on January 19, 2016, 03:49:19 PM
IF that was true I don't think the MGX01 or whatever the heck it is called would even exist, and I have some doubt about the Cali 1400 Custom and Audace too. Not to mention the V9 Bobber...

 Referring more to the call for more sporting models like the MGS 01 , that buyers would , to quote Pete , "stay away from in droves"  :laugh: Aren't all of those models based on existing platforms ?

 Dusty
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: rocker59 on January 19, 2016, 03:55:30 PM
MGX-21 = Cal 14 Bagger.

MGS-01 = Spine Frame sporty bike
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: rboe on January 19, 2016, 04:10:52 PM
Once everyone that wants a certain bike the market is saturated. Seems to have happened with the CB1100, and they even did a little refreshing from 2013 to 2014, adding a 6th gear and ABS.

MG has a limited market share, so the folks that want a Norge have one. Only way to the rest sold is to discount them; attracting the cheap old penny pinchers - not the sort of customer you really want to cultivate.

If the Norge (and Stelvio and Griso) are refreshed every few years, and with real improvements, there is a good chance you'll increase your market share and sell some new units to current owners that may want to keep a bike that has a warranty (the most common excuse I hear for a new car or bike is to have one under warranty - this may or may not apply to you). If you are a current owner, with a well sorted Guzzi, if the new Guzzi being offered is just a different color than the one you have (and will still need to be sorted) you really don't have much motivation to get it.

In the mean time, all the cheap penny pinchers are snapping their suspenders saying the old bike is just fine.  :boozing:
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: canuguzzi on January 19, 2016, 05:03:23 PM
How many riders have you come by that even know a Norge existed? People don't buy what they don't know about but if they find out, they compare features beyond character and feel because just how can they experience it if finding one is difficult?

Telling someone to fly somewhere just to try one out isn't realistic. That is one reason they come with $6000 discounts.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: JeffOlson on January 19, 2016, 05:20:07 PM
A couple of thoughts:

First, I imagine most Western buyers of motorcycles use the Internet to research their options. That is exactly how I found out about Moto Guzzi and the Norge. I then read everything I could find online. Once I had decided on the Norge, I bought one without even a test ride. I felt I knew what to expect; the reality turned out to be better than expected. When it came time to replace the Norge, I bought another one, from a greater distance, sight unseen and without a test ride. Am I the only modern, educated buyer who who is prepared to buy a motorcycle without a test ride? I doubt it. (I also bought my Vespa GTS 300 without a test ride, and I have no regrets.)

Second, the market for adventure bikes is hotter than it is for sport touring motorcycles. I don't know, but I suspect the market for naked roadsters is also stronger than it is for sport touring bikes. Hence the larger discounts on the Norge than on the Stelvio or Griso.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: Gliderjohn on January 19, 2016, 05:36:08 PM
In my observations (Now don't you all start getting big heads) most Guzzi riders are more educated, either formally or informally than many other "groups" and an intellegent bunch overall. Due to that the average Guzzi owner is more likely to have researched what he/she rides.
GliderJohn
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: canuguzzi on January 19, 2016, 05:38:17 PM
That experience isn't shared by more than a very small percentage of people buying motorcycles. There are hundreds if thousands of motorcycles sold in the USA each year and most aren't buying them sight unseen or traveling distances to get them.

You can't easily sell what you don't have to offer.

Take the typical ST buyer. They might find out about the Norge and then they look for one. Not available. But right over there is a shiny new FJR, a ST1300, a BMW or a Kawasaki Concourse not to mention the numerous other bikes that can do the duty. They aren't traveling to buy a Norge sight unseen except in rare ocassions and the proof is staring us in the face.

If 2000 buyers wanted a Norge there wouldn't be discounts as there are and MG would be making them to sell.

Even among those who know about Moto Guzzi and decide they want one, how many travel to buy one because they want to? They travel because they have to.

Would you buy a motorcycle sight unseen and no test ride if the bike was sitting in a showroom in the same city? I think not or we're all telling each other lies when we recommend others not do just that.

You bought a Norge despite little dealership availability, no significant updates in over 4 years not because of it, right?

Sorry, IMO if MG updated the Norge, Stelvio and Griso they'd sell more if them. Its a competitive market for motorcycles, either compete or get left behind. If being left behind is the idea, nothing wrong with that but then that is what it is.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: canuguzzi on January 19, 2016, 05:40:51 PM
In my observations (Now don't you all start getting big heads) most Guzzi riders are more educated, either formally or informally than many other "groups" and an intellegent bunch overall. Due to that the average Guzzi owner is more likely to have researched what he/she rides.
GliderJohn

Haha, as in gods .0000000005%? :wink: :grin:

(No religious overtones intended)
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: kingoffleece on January 19, 2016, 07:37:32 PM
This is an interesting conversation.  A bit more to think about:
Riding my Triumph bikes I ran into dozens of riders (mostly Harley which may explain it) that had no idea Triumph still made bikes. This amazed me.

Among other groups I run with from time to time most of them had never seen a Guzzi until I rode mine.

Most other S/T riders think I bought a Norge that is ten years behind the times for technology, and while they like the bike would never buy one.  I sometimes hear: "where's the cruise control, the radio, the riding modes, the active suspension" and what not.  Mine, these comments are not from my "real rider" friends who cover thousands of miles-but more from the casual M/C owner.

When I used to work local and regional events for our local Triumph dealer I hear almost all day "dang, they still make those things?"

I know, sounds strange to motorcycle lovers like ourselves, but it happened a LOT!
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: LowRyter on January 19, 2016, 10:33:24 PM
Who says you need to buy a bike every few years?  Some people like the bike they bought and are happy to ride it for 5-10 years or much longer, same with cars...why the overwhelming need to buy a new one every few years?

my '98 EV has 60k miles
my '98 Bandit has 80k miles
my '01 Sport has 34k miles
my '94 Z/28 has 165k miles
my '99 Trooper has 90k miles
my '04 Duramax has 60k miles
my '14 Accord has 16k miles (it replaced an '04 Accord my son has with 120k miles)

My Camaro is still a barrel of monkeys.  I took it out and redlined in 2nd gear all day long.  It's too cold to be redlining my bikes.  I looked at several two seater "retirement cars" but none seemed anymore fun that my Z/28 6 speed.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: PJPR01 on January 19, 2016, 10:43:01 PM
my '98 EV has 60k miles
my '98 Bandit has 80k miles
my '01 Sport has 34k miles
my '94 Z/28 has 165k miles
my '99 Trooper has 90k miles
my '04 Duramax has 60k miles
my '14 Accord has 16k miles (it replaced an '04 Accord my son has with 120k miles)

My Camaro is still a barrel of monkeys.  I took it out and redlined in 2nd gear all day long.  It's too cold to be redlining my bikes.  I looked at several two seater "retirement cars" but none seemed anymore fun that my Z/28 6 speed.
   Exactly...QED!  None of those would have that kind of mileage if it weren't enjoyable to do so...  :)
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: bad Chad on January 19, 2016, 10:53:48 PM
This thread should extend ghe life of armchair QBs for decades!

Im not at all sure Piaggio gives two shits what us board users think.   My guess, if they may figure that half of us will buy a new guzzi based on brand loyalty; so it wo t really matter what they offer to our demographic. The other half of us will NEVER buy a new guzzi.

So they have half of our tiny community in the bag, only makes sence to go in new drections to pull in new converts.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the 1200 engine?
Post by: oldbike54 on January 19, 2016, 10:55:58 PM
   Exactly...QED!  None of those would have that kind of mileage if it weren't enjoyable to do so...  :)

 Ahh , the Babel fish axiom  :laugh:

  Dusty
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: canuguzzi on January 19, 2016, 11:24:13 PM
Who among us that own a Norge wouldn't be in line for a 2016 model that retained what is great about it but carried in addition some of the things like adjustable pegs, adjustable bars, adjustable seat, updated gauges and some refinements like traction control and a better suspension or are we caught up in just being OK with what there is now?

Maybe a temp controlled oil cooler bypass, like keyed luggage all the way around including the top box, a facade tank cover hiding the plastic thank that could grow or shrink without affecting much of anything, more heat range on the grips, cruise control and the like.

We wouldn't line up for the most part because of a needs test that says nonone needs to buy a new bike within a few years of buying the last time? Really?

More important though, I bet we'd see a lot more people willing to buy in too and that is far better for the brand and brand owners than the notion of exclusivity. Would perhaps a few thousand more riders owning a Norge diminish us because they have one too? That's kinda vain isn't it?

I bet when the Norge came out there were plenty of Guzzi owners who mocked the plastic Norge and don't look now, some still do. Wasn't the Norge, Stelvio and Griso a refinement and update of Guzzi and the platforms for the then new 1200 engine and the the 8V?

Now that has to stop because we got ours? Yuck. We'll be the next group stuck in yesteryear.

Just because there is ABS, cruise, traction and all those other things doesn't mean we have to use them but they will attract new riders to Guzzi or do we think the Roamer and MGX-21 are going to carry that banner forward with more than modest alacrity?

What is so wrong about selling those who just want to buy a new bike an updated version of what they have? If BMW and the rest let their flagship models stagnate (and the Norge IS a flagship bike) for more than a couple years people would stop buying them.

Take the ST1300 or FJR. A model 6 years old looks lime one made last year but along the way they got enough refinements that quite a few people buying them are repeat customers. In March when the new FJR hits dealers there will be plenty of previous year owners ready to buy.  Yet the upcoming FJR maintains the good of previous models, enough so that like BMW and Honda owners, the lineage is evident.

MG isn't any of those other brands but when the difference between a 2012 Norge and a 2016 Norge is the couple of grand the 2012 owner put out for rollers, that is a bit of stagnation. When dealers are selling 2014s for less than 2012 bikes, something isn't working business wise. Will the 2017 Norge sell for less than the 2012 Norge because there is no reason for that 2012 owner to step up and no real reason for anyone else to either?

The old Z28s, SD455 TransAms and Challengers were at the top and if you're lucky enough to have one have got it kicked. But you wouldn't like a new Camaro or Challenger? Take a look at who manynof those buyers are, lots of silver haired youngsters with enough money to pony up.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: Rough Edge racing on January 20, 2016, 06:14:51 AM
The Triumph Bonneville (Turner version) was built in response to the demand from America for more power . At its introduction , Turner stated that "this will be the bike that ruins us". It took a few years, but he was probably right . Somewhere in an interview he claimed he really wanted to develop a 500 CC engine with some basic refinements like a counterbalancer and aluminum cylinders . He said the money spent developing the first 650 CC and then later the Bonneville used up most of Triumph's development budget , so any other projects got put on hold . Too late was the Bandit/Fury design , and way underfunded , not what Turner envisioned back in 1955 . Bearing in mind that America represented about 40% of Triumph's total market share , and only 10% of MG's , maybe the mothership is attempting to learn from history , refine what you have , and don't listen to those silly Yanks and their insatiable need for HP and the latest tech  :laugh:
 
 Dusty

   It's interesting to note that the Bonneville dual carb and the same era single carb TR6 have the exact same internal parts and depending on the year only vary in camshaft timing and the mentioned head. Development of the Delta dual carb head was nothing special . Before the Bonneville was introduced in 1959, Triumph had offered the dual carb head as an retro fit kit for a year.Turner and Triumph always had excuses not to redesign the several glaring flaws of of 1938 500 cc engine ....it was more convenient to blame the speed crazy Americans for the problems. The truth was Turner objected to the 500 cc engine being enlarged to 650 in 1950 because the design was barely adequate for 500 cc's and he knew his sweet running 27 HP 500 would become a temperamental 45 HP 650
 
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: charlie b on January 20, 2016, 09:16:48 AM
The 'other' crowd I hang out with (ST types) almost all know about the Norge and like the low weight and decent power.  BUT...about 90% stay away mainly cause of the dealer network.  They would rather get an FJR or Connie with good dealer networks and known bugs.  Many of those wish Honda would update thee ST, but, that looks like it won't happen either.  If Honda won't make one then why should Guzzi update the Norge?  Piaggio has bikes they can't sell near retail price now.  And those in the market for an ST type probably won't buy it anyway cause dealers are so few.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: George_S on January 20, 2016, 09:43:05 AM
How many riders have you come by that even know a Norge existed? People don't buy what they don't know about but if they find out, they compare features beyond character and feel because just how can they experience it if finding one is difficult?

Telling someone to fly somewhere just to try one out isn't realistic. That is one reason they come with $6000 discounts.

I agree and have to say that I never heard of the Norge until I bought my Cali 1400 and came to this forum.
I've owned quite a few BMW R 1150/1200s and knew about a couple other choices (Yamaha, etc) but never heard of a Norge.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: JeffOlson on January 20, 2016, 11:33:53 AM
Even if one were to pay MSRP for the Norge (but who does that?), the base price would be $16,290. The base price for a BMW R1200RT is $18,145 (but good luck finding a base model anywhere). The real world difference between the two is many thousands of dollars. Granted, the BMW will likely come "standard" with $3,200 worth of options, so it would not be an apples-to-apples comparison, but there it is: low teens for a Norge or low twenties for a BMW. Frankly, you could probably buy a Norge and a V7 II Stone for the price of one BMW R1200RT...
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: Demar on January 20, 2016, 12:42:06 PM
If the Norge (and Stelvio and Griso) are refreshed every few years, and with real improvements, there is a good chance you'll increase your market share and sell some new units to current owners that may want to keep a bike that has a warranty (the most common excuse I hear for a new car or bike is to have one under warranty - this may or may not apply to you). If you are a current owner, with a well sorted Guzzi, if the new Guzzi being offered is just a different color than the one you have (and will still need to be sorted) you really don't have much motivation to get it.

This is why I think a 900 NTX about 1"-1.5" shorter and 150lbs lighter than the current NTX should be developed. I have a 2012 NTX and if a model as I described was available I'd buy it. I wouldn't immediately sell the 2012, but, even if I did a new purchase is what MG is after.... new bikes sold. A smaller NTX would lure in buyers who think the current NTX is just too big and expand the MG market.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: kirb on January 20, 2016, 01:05:35 PM
Guzzi refined the Stelvio with the NTX (4 years?) and hit one out of the park as much as MG can. All of the niggles were fixed- tank size, cam profile, wide rear rim, etc...

The Norge has been fairly unchanged over it's life span. Would a new Norge sell? ST market isn't blazing hot and there are a LOT of other quality offerings. The FJR, RT, Connie, and a host of others that are not lighting the world on fire for those MFGs... Norge don't sell from a dealer's perspective. Stock one and give it away 9 months later. Our dealer requires that you order one if you want one. No one buys them, and the cheap skates that do wait until they are deeply discounted. Yes exceptions exist. Would any Norge owners want to take the $$ hit to get a new Norge with some upgrades, modes, or whatever? Those buyers knowing the price of the new bike just was cut by a 1/3 that day?

Any motorcycle test either doesn't test a Norge because it's and old design, isn't given one to test, or knows it will come near the bottom of every category. The people who want Norges have them.

I don't see me stepping up to another Stelvio if they added a few other features. I already replaced a '12 with a '13 due to a deer strike. I'll be good for awhile.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: JeffOlson on January 20, 2016, 02:23:14 PM
Any motorcycle test either doesn't test a Norge because it's and old design, isn't given one to test, or knows it will come near the bottom of every category.

Not true: http://www.government-fleet.com/news/story/2014/10/2015-my-mich-police-motorcycle-test-results-released.aspx (http://www.government-fleet.com/news/story/2014/10/2015-my-mich-police-motorcycle-test-results-released.aspx)

The Norge came out #2 in top speed, 0-60, 0-100, braking, and lap times. Hardly near the bottom.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: canuguzzi on January 20, 2016, 03:23:15 PM
I don't accept that Moto Guzzi can't compete on par in the ST market. I think Moto Guzzi has the talent and the resources to take the Norge and update it to run with the other ST bikes in overall competence and desirability.

Where is it written that because its Moto Guzzi that somehow it has to be some background player?

All it takes is effort. Effort to support dealers and effort to support customers. So far MG has fallen down on those accounts.

Yamaha, Honda, BMW and Kawasaki aren't making ST bikes because that market is withering away. Where dies that notion come from anyway, does someone have any hard cold facts or is that some regurgitated something easy to say?

Yamaha updated the FJR because that market is going away? BMW did the same thing for the same reason? Poppycock.

Just because ADV bikes are selling well doesn't mean the ST market is going away, it just means a different bike style, the ADV is developing. No one expects the ST market to be selling like ADVs but that seems to be the reason why some say the ST market is going away.

Right, everyone else spent millions on R&D to update their STs because the market is disappearing. Uh huh.

The company that had produced motorcycles that are among the most beautiful and functional in motorcycling history can't compete in the ST market with more than a footnote? I don't buy that. They can and could, the question is do they want to?

I submit that making the exact same bike from 2012-2016 is not the way to attract customers unless its done just to say you have a ST bike in the lineup.

The other manufacturers have proven as fact that people do want updates beyond ABS. MG has proven as fact that very few people want a Norge as it is being made. I think more than a few people, seeing the at the time new 8V going into the Norge hoped progress would continue.

Some.might not buy an new Norge because of updates. Sorry, they are in the minority and sales figures prove that too.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: kirb on January 20, 2016, 03:24:54 PM
The Norge came out #2 in top speed, 0-60, 0-100, braking, and lap times. Hardly near the bottom.

That was a Michigan State Police test...not exactly the same thing. I would hope it did well against the land barge brigade. The MSP tests only have BMW or Guzzi 'ST' bikes...they may have had a connie once. I have not seen a road test by a on-line or print mag putting it up against rivals in as long as I can remember.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: kirb on January 20, 2016, 03:38:01 PM
The company that had produced motorcycles that are among the most beautiful and functional in motorcycling history can't compete in the ST market with more than a footnote? I don't buy that. They can and could, the question is do they want to?

Actually, you did buy it... Guzzi will always be a small player. I am amazed that they are still making bikes. They wouldn't be without the amazing ability of Italian pride to keep things afloat.

I like my Stelvio. Many people who open their mind up to it love the concept. The marque is too small for the average person to 'risk' going in on one for the same investment of a known hammer-reliable offering of another brand.

What do you think could move MG from ST obscurity to mainstream by product alone? Even if you put all the electronics on it, cruise, new body style, 50 more HP...then put it in the tester's hands and have it thrashed and reviewed. Let's say it gets glowing reviews (think Motus reviews...with electronics)...how do you think that will impact sales? Be realistic. It may get the notice of a real world competitor, but the small marque will always be 'quirky' and odd.

Look at the people who ride Guzzi...they are drawn to the quirky and odd. It's not a bad thing other than there should be more of us.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: Gliderjohn on January 20, 2016, 03:41:06 PM
IMHO the styling of the Norge is still cutting edge and done only as the Italians can. With the rollers in it one has one of the sweetest running engines out there, especially for real world applications.
That said the Norge is getting "long in the tooth". To be viable it needs the electronics brought up to current standards, active suspension (at least as an option), improved windscreen with more friendly adjustment button placement, one key luggage as it should be, someway to git about an inch more clearance to the center stand without increasing overall bike height, heated seat (again, at least as an option) and some dealers.
GliderJohn
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: JeffOlson on January 20, 2016, 04:53:29 PM
I have not seen a road test by a on-line or print mag putting it up against rivals in as long as I can remember.

http://www.motorcycle.com/shoot-outs/2014-sport-touring-final-smackdown-video (http://www.motorcycle.com/shoot-outs/2014-sport-touring-final-smackdown-video)

"The funny thing about the Norge is, in spite of all its shortcomings on the spec and dyno charts, it never seemed to have any trouble keeping up with the group... The Guzzi packs a lot of oomph into each chug, and if you're behind it wringing the FJR's 127-hp neck up a winding road, it's hard to understand why you're not gaining any ground...

"And its dual Brembo-clamped discs up front give up absolutely nothing to the other bikes, including ABS.

"Guzzi can play the modern game; witness the excellent California 1400. The Norge is unabashedly retro and good at it; if you only listen to vinyl through a tube amplifier while clamping a meerschaum pipe in your hipster-bearded mouth, it's your sporty tourer. Especially if you want to do your own maintenance."

I do prefer vinyl records and tube amplifiers, I do smoke a pipe, and I do have a beard, so I guess the Norge is my bike!
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: canuguzzi on January 20, 2016, 05:15:55 PM
Agree with the above :thumb:

Now, the FJR just got a nice update, new tranny, better features in almost every area.

Here is the thing, do we see the Norge remaining in the lineup with the sales it gets? I don't. I see 2016 as the last year, maybe 2017 unless it gets an update.

MG doesn't have to change the Norge's character and frankly, I don't see how updating the things suggested does any of that. Does the addition of active suspension and other features change the Norge into something it isn't now?

Would those things attract more buyers and maybe break the cycle of it being the step child in STing? Probably.

MG will only keep the Norge around so long if it doesn't sell better. I give it 2 more years at most and then it will be available via special order only, it at all.

Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: bad Chad on January 20, 2016, 05:44:43 PM
I don't know NP, they have kept it around for 10 years, and by the standards you're using, has it ever sold well?
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: canuguzzi on January 20, 2016, 06:02:24 PM
When the Norge got updated to the 8V engine, much of the bike changed too. An engine change is a pretty big deal. Ergos changes quite a bit too.

The first gen and 2nd gen Norge's look similar but are quite different.

Your point is well taken though and does support the idea that it could be updated yet again and still retain its roots.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: ohiorider on January 20, 2016, 07:18:48 PM
Probably the wrong place to interject this, but ...... if (IF) I was looking for a Norge, I'd very likely go to the lower performance 2v engine, probably a 2008 or 09.  Why? ..... only because I so much like the way my 2v 1200 Sport performs.  I'm not a full fairing rider, but if I was (were?), a two valve Norge in the copper color would do it for me.

I've experienced the 4v (8vSE) engine for nearly 10,000 miles, totally loved the rush of power, but for a relatively light large cc touring bike, the 2v Norge would do it for me.  Sort of an old pushrod dude here!
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: keener on January 20, 2016, 11:01:52 PM
just a quick little interjection but......as far as ST bikes go from any mfg and for what they are intended to do "sport touring"
Any larger cc adventure touring bike will do that just as well and in some cases better IMO
..for example my good friend tours with his Triumph Explorer 1200 , full luggage all the farkles  with a pillion in near total comfort..and his bike has never seen gravel...he is not alone many GS riders do the same...another reason the ST sales are down..
If i was MG ...Id concentrate on the Stelvio  :wink:
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: kingoffleece on January 21, 2016, 08:53:20 AM
I went that route for years.  Tiger 1050.  Time for a full faring bike-so Norge got the buy as it provides the most breeze for a big of that type while still offering full coverage.  That was a big part of the decision.  BMW and Triumph block too much wind for my taste.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: rocker59 on January 21, 2016, 10:09:53 AM
ST sales are down..
If i was MG ...Id concentrate on the Stelvio  :wink:

That's not a bad idea.  The former Sport-Touring customers seem to be migrating to the street-oriented ADV-styled bikes.

A more road-going Stelvio, and a more off-pavement-oriented Stelvio would match what others are doing.

Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: canuguzzi on January 21, 2016, 11:12:57 AM
That's not a bad idea.  The former Sport-Touring customers seem to be migrating to the street-oriented ADV-styled bikes.

A more road-going Stelvio, and a more off-pavement-oriented Stelvio would match what others are doing.

Probably the smartest thing they could do. Sometimes what everyone else is doing isn't wrong.

Notice though, the others aren't dropping ST models, they are adding a new style of bike, the cross tourer style.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: rocker59 on January 21, 2016, 03:11:27 PM
they are adding a new style of bike, the cross tourer style.

Yeah.  And I wish it had a distinct name.  One magazine is using "Adventure Sport Touring" for the Adventure-styled bikes that are more pavement-oriented.  17 inch wheels, shorter suspension, etc.

Up until now, companies have just been lumping them into the Adventure Touring lineup, since they're largely derived from them, and styled like them.

Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: George_S on January 21, 2016, 03:58:50 PM
Probably the smartest thing they could do. Sometimes what everyone else is doing isn't wrong.

Notice though, the others aren't dropping ST models, they are adding a new style of bike, the cross tourer style.

Great idea. Especially since 90% of all adventure bikes sold so far will never be taken off pavement.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: canuguzzi on January 21, 2016, 04:23:53 PM
Yeah.  And I wish it had a distinct name.  One magazine is using "Adventure Sport Touring" for the Adventure-styled bikes that are more pavement-oriented.  17 inch wheels, shorter suspension, etc.

Up until now, companies have just been lumping them into the Adventure Touring lineup, since they're largely derived from them, and styled like them.

Exactly. And when does a bike derived from one but blended to do something else become something else? Let me explain.

Remember the Enduros? From that came the dual purpose bikes, they looked a lot like Enduros but were sort of washed down so they could do street duty. Couldn't really call them Enduros (at least not in the presence of Enduro owners ).  Cafe racers in the US became sportbikes ( Starbucks missed the times).

Are ADV bikes that are more street tuned ADVs or STs? "Sport" covers a lot as does "Adventure" but the latter tends to mean more other road than paved.

Then there is Hondas entry, that V4 engined thing that is quite heavy but clearly designed for road duty. Wouldn't that be more of a Sport Tourer that just happens to look a little different than an oversized sport bike?

Then "Street" means anything that doesn't fit elsewhere but can get a license plate.

Then there are the baggers, shaggers and laggers so anything can be anything depending on if you can ride it for more than 15 minutes (the length of time it takes a poseur to ride from home to the nearest tea party?)

All darn confusing it is.
Title: Re: Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)
Post by: PJPR01 on January 21, 2016, 04:41:51 PM

All darn confusing it is.

Sounds like you need to go for a ride, a LONG Sport Touring ride on your beloved Norge and get some positive waves back Moriarty! 
Take some  :gotpics: :gotpics: