Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: screamday on February 26, 2017, 12:11:24 PM
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I'm getting near the end of my patience with the bike. I have been having electrical problems, on and off, for over the last 2 - 3 years. The bike has been pretty much sitting most of that time. I have had Wayne look at it and he was stumped. The problem just is not consistent enough for an amateur like me to trace the problem. The problem doesn't even stay around long enough to trace the problem.
I originally had problems with the starting the bike. Hit the starter button and everything would go dead. Nothing was working. No lights, no fuel pump....nothing.... .for a couple of tries. Then after about the third try the bike would come to life and run like nothing was wrong. Took it to Wayne's a couple of times. The first time the problem would not rear it's ugly head, so nothing was accomplished except some quality time with quality people. The second time the problem stayed around long enough to trailer it to Wayne's and push it into his garage for examination. Wayne did his thing found a bad relay......one which we replaced on the previous adventure but he wasn't satisfied that he had found the problem. I should mention, Wayne took apart the starter button, the starter solenoid, the kill switch and checked all the relays.
The bike did start and run and worked for about 6 weeks. Then, one day on the way home from work, I pulled into the driveway and the bike just shut off. Nothing......simila r to above no lights, no fuel pump....nothing. Just like pulling the plug on an appliance. Dead stop. Waited about 5 minutes and it started up and I was able to pull it into the garage. Went to take it to work the next morning, it started up and I got it on the road and made one right turn and it quit. Again started up after about 5 minutes. Pulled it back into the garage and it has been sitting there for the last 6 months.
This weekend I checked all the ground connections and bought a new battery....just because the bike hadn't been ridden much in the last 4 years and I figured, why not. Yesterday it started right up after the battery install like it had never been sitting. Today I decided to go for a spin to see how far I would get. Well......I got about 1/2 a mile form the house before it shut off....just like before. Nothing again.....completel y dead. So I called the wife to come and get me but while I was on the phone, a total of about 5 minutes, I tried to start the bike and it started right up. Got it back to the garage and locked it up.
I'm at a loss at the moment. Open to all suggestions. Anybody interested in buying a slightly used 98 EV with 51,000 miles on the clock? Make an offer. Obviously won't be a fly and ride purchase as it would be a long ride home at 1/2 mile increments. :embarrassed:
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If your bike has the same ECU as my '96, the one about the size of a Tupper-ware sandwich box, your niggling problem might be the same as mine was. The long connector is secured to the ECU at one end with a screw and the other with a notch. That notch came loose so I rigged a string in a manner that pulled the connection together. Cheap and worth a try.
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i thought ECU problem too.
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If the rest of the bike is in good nick, I'd put a new wire harness on it. Otherwise part it out. I don't have to tell you intermittent electrical problems are real bad. :undecided:
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Good suggestion from Terry. :thumb: You might want to check the female ends of all the pins in any gang connector. The stuff does wear out. Had some real problems with the ignition switch dying.
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You didn't say anything about the ignition switch. ??? I'm having one replaced on the Centauro.
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Mine just was doing same thing and I found it, 4 pin plug from harness to ignition switch has a bad or loose pin. The ign switch had a bad post and I just put it to the next one w/fuse. That was 9 yrs ago and still working.
The harness plug I put foam in between the 4 wires and wrapped it w/lectrical tape, working fine since. You can get the plug & pins for under $10 and it's on my list.
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Definitely check the ignition switch. Get a multi meter and see if juice is getting up to the switch first. Turn key on the see if you have juice through the switch. Couple of bikes I used a universal one from O'Reilly's.
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and it's on my list.
This list you speak of?
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Stuff to order if it can't be rigged again. Ign switch is over $200
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It reads like the obvious stuff has been gone over. It's going to take blind luck, eyes-on during an event, or a very methodical step through to find it. If you haven't solved it by the time I get out your way, I'm for hire. :afro:
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Their bbq is sweeter. :laugh:
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Two symptoms, two thoughts.
Hit starter button and the power goes out... Many times this is due to a bad battery connection. My old truck would do this at times. Clean the battery terminals and all was fine for a bit.
Turned into the driveway and it died. Turned RIGHT and it died..... Maybe a bad connection that may be found with a right turn of the bars??? If the bike is running and you tern left all is well, then turn right and it dies. This may help narrow down where the bad wire is?
Hope this helps,
Tom
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Ignition switch or battery connections, ground connection is about the only 3 things that will take out everything and loss of headlight.
Look at the sketch you will see the tail light is on a different switch contact.
I made this simplified sketch to show the EV fuse and relay area, from under the side cover you can check most circuits
(http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s526/Kiwi_Roy/EV%20Wiring/EVFuseRelayLayout_zps74d7d55c.jpg)
At the top of fuse F3 F4 you can test for Voltage coming back from the ignition switch, I suspect you will have nothing there.
Then check the ECU fuses F5 F6 (bottom or relay socket) if you have power there it points to the ignition switch, If you have no power at F5 F6 it's battery or main ground.
I think the 98 EV has the main ground connecter to the chassis steel under the LH (gear side) side cover, take it off there and connect it to a gearbox bolt or under starter bolt.
Scrape the battery terminals and smear them with Vaseline, same for the main ground (now on the gearbox)
Learn how to jumper around the ignition switch under the side cover and you will never be stranded. You have 3 different feeds from the battery under the side cover, theu can be coupled together with a wire jammed in the fuse holder.
Always have a screwdriver to get the covers off.
Always carry a test light, I like to use an LED tail light, it will always act as an inspection light and doesn't have the problem of filament breaking but you have to be aware of polarity so have a clip on the negative to clip on the chassis.
I'm sure Wayne will agree, intermittent problems are the hardest to find.
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Thank for all the replies guys. This is really frustrating. Especially for someone who is not well versed in trouble shooting electrical problems. I'll try to address some of the individual answers:
If your bike has the same ECU as my '96, the one about the size of a Tupper-ware sandwich box, your niggling problem might be the same as mine was. The long connector is secured to the ECU at one end with a screw and the other with a notch. That notch came loose so I rigged a string in a manner that pulled the connection together. Cheap and worth a try.
Terry....that's what I originally found when I first encountered this problem. I took the seat off to do the usual inspections and found the giant connector was skewed slightly. So I snapped that back in place and hoped that was the problem. So far that did not change anything. The connector may still not be fully seated. I will check that again.
If the rest of the bike is in good nick, I'd put a new wire harness on it. Otherwise part it out. I don't have to tell you intermittent electrical problems are real bad. :undecided:
John, the bike is in great shape as it's been kept in a garaged since I've owned it.......since 1998. Re-wiring it would be beyond my capabilities. I've thought about parting it out but then I would have a garage full of motorcycle parts instead of a rolling motorcycle.
You didn't say anything about the ignition switch. ??? I'm having one replaced on the Centauro.
Definitely check the ignition switch. Get a multi meter and see if juice is getting up to the switch first. Turn key on the see if you have juice through the switch. Couple of bikes I used a universal one from O'Reilly's.
When Wayne did his diagnosis, I seem to remember we took the switch out and he dissembled and cleaned it. I agree, the switch could be the culprit and I may just get a new one to give it a try. That would be about the extent of my diagnosis.
Mine just was doing same thing and I found it, 4 pin plug from harness to ignition switch has a bad or loose pin. The ign switch had a bad post and I just put it to the next one w/fuse. That was 9 yrs ago and still working.
The harness plug I put foam in between the 4 wires and wrapped it w/lectrical tape, working fine since. You can get the plug & pins for under $10 and it's on my list.
Well.....that could be. Which plug would this be? Again.....the collective consensus seems to be the ignition switch.
Turned into the driveway and it died. Turned RIGHT and it died..... Maybe a bad connection that may be found with a right turn of the bars??? If the bike is running and you tern left all is well, then turn right and it dies. This may help narrow down where the bad wire is?
Hope this helps,
Tom
Well.....the last event I was just going straight. I was pulling up to a traffic light and slowing when it cut out. Fortunately there was a drive way to a restaurant right there and I just coasted in.
Ignition switch or battery connections, ground connection is about the only 3 things that will take out everything and loss of headlight.
Look at the sketch you will see the tail light is on a different switch contact.
Roy....as usual, thanks for all the great information. Just wish I was better at deciphering it. I really need to take a week vacation and figure it out. May I can get some kind of family care leave from work. :laugh:
It reads like the obvious stuff has been gone over. It's going to take blind luck, eyes-on during an event, or a very methodical step through to find it. If you haven't solved it by the time I get out your way, I'm for hire. :afro:
Come on......I ready for help. :boozing:
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At one time, when it was working and we could not reproduce any problem, I disassembled the ignition switch. It was spotless. But I still cleaned and lubed it. Still can't rule it out of course, but I don't think that is it.
Another time, it failed to crank over. I carefully poked around (I didn't want it to start working). I found the relay to the starter solenoid had failed. I am 100% certain, that relay contact was bad. And that relay had been replace not long before. That relay contact had a small burn mark on it, nothing really unexpected. But the contact was definitely bad. Replacing that relay brought the bike back to life.
It is like it suddenly has a dozen intermittents. Very odd.
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one of the reasons I suggested a new harness was that you would touch and check every component of the harness. unless you have a place to do it, I wouldn't attempt it. very big job. if its a "snowbank" job, Id get Rodekyll to do it. anyway the bike is basically worthless if you cant trust it.
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......anyway the bike is basically worthless if you cant trust it.
Pretty much my sentiments. :sad:
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You might change out the harness and still it cuts out, what then?
Add some troubleshooting aids like a couple of small lights at critical points to let you know the power is there.
Fuse 3 & 4 one wire back from ignition switch
Stand relay 30 or the petcock fuse, other wire back from ignition switch.
I have often pointed out how a small lamp attached to the petcock fuse is halfway through the wiring and proves up to the ECU around a bunch of troublesome systems, you can narrow a fault down at a glance also great for finding a bad contact because it flashes. For example a bad stand switch will cause it to flash or go dim.
Learn how to bypass stuff like the ignition switch, the main requirements are power at the two ECU fuses and to the petcock fuse that's all the bike needs to keep running once started.
Wayne serviced the ignition switch but it could still be broken wires in the loom where they flex, pull hard on each one to see if they give, check the connector where they plug into the loom.
Provide a bypass switch from battery to the petcock fuse to feed power to the ECU in an emergency.
Learn how to jump the starter with a bit of wire.
Learn how to use a test light to check all the fuses and relay socket terminal 30 for power.
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That's what I was wondering too, what if you change out the harness and it's the same. Or if you are deep into it and you find it and have to decide to continue or put it back together, not being sure it's the only problem. I like Kiwi Roy's approach to electrical gremlins.
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Screamday,
I sent an e-mail to your address of 2014
Perhaps discuss it with Wayne if you can.
Roy
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PM me about this. I'm in Washington right now doing some paperwork, but I'll be back in TX in a couple of weeks. Right now I have things to finish at the Oleo Ranch, a Manx Dune Buggy (yeah, I speak Manx -- still have the shop smock) with rodent-chewed wiring also in Lindale, and an as-yet undefined job in AR. If the problem isn't solved by the time I'm rolling, I'd be happy to include this on my route.
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Screamday,
I sent an e-mail to your address of 2014
Perhaps discuss it with Wayne if you can.
Roy
Got it......thanks again. :bow: :bow: I'll give it go and see what happens.
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Got it......thanks again. :bow: :bow: I'll give it go and see what happens.
Bring it over. Park it in my garage. Let me ride it a while. I will try to exorcise the gremlins. I am convinced it is multiple issues, which makes it a nightmare to track. That relay was absolutely bad. And it wasn't an old relay. Why? Did some corrosive vapors get into the system and maybe damage a number of contacts?
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FWIW My 98 had similar symptoms. Going over things I found a spot on a sensor wire that appeared to be rubbed through. The one behind the right throttle body that needs metallic debris cleaned off every leap year or so. Meter showed it was fine but tactile exam found the flaw. Figured out some idiot, me, didn't pay enough attention to its position when replacing some fuel line.
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FWIW My 98 had similar symptoms. Going over things I found a spot on a sensor wire that appeared to be rubbed through. The one behind the right throttle body that needs metallic debris cleaned off every leap year or so. Meter showed it was fine but tactile exam found the flaw. Figured out some idiot, me, didn't pay enough attention to its position when replacing some fuel line.
Hmmmm........thanks Joe. Which sensor is this? Is this the pickup at the flywheel?
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Hmmmm........thanks Joe. Which sensor is this? Is this the pickup at the flywheel?
Yep, flywheel sensor behind right throttle body. Should be cleaned off every so often as it picks up some debris from the flywheel.
Another one, cam sensor, up on the left side of the engine. The cam sensor runs wet so usually doesn't need any attention. Connections for them under tank, fairly accessible. If you decide to put a meter on them should be 680 ohms + or - 10% around 70 degrees F.
Mine metered fine but feeling along the wire I found a slice through the coating.
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You mentioned that at 1/2mile, it was completely dead. Did the starter crank it over? If it did NOT crank over, then it is NOT the sensors. If it DID crank over, it might be a sensor.
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You mentioned that at 1/2mile, it was completely dead. Did the starter crank it over? If it did NOT crank over, then it is NOT the sensors. If it DID crank over, it might be a sensor.
No power.....nothing.. ...nada....niente. Completely dead.
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As though the battery was disconnected?
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As though the battery was disconnected?
Yep
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Relationship to running time, miles, event (gassing up/highway to stop-n-go, etc), temperature or weather? (Be specific here -- one-word answers don't count)
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I'm still learning the new bike electrics. I had thought a bad battery connection. After reading this OP again. Could it be a heat related electrical issue that would cut the power like turning off a switch. What might get hot and do this, voltage regulator, a main power relay or the like?
Just a thought that might lead to an answer.
Good luck,
Tom
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Relationship to running time, miles, event (gassing up/highway to stop-n-go, etc), temperature or weather? (Be specific here -- one-word answers don't count)
Ok.....I'll give it my best shot.
Running times/Miles:
1st Failure: From Office to work - 5 Miles, 20 minutes max running time
2nd Failure: From Garage to street corner - less than 100 Ft, less than 5 minutes
3rd Failure: From Garage to Bojangles - 1/2 mile, a little more than 5 minutes running time.
All stop and go traffic , no highway (won't take it on the highway at this point). First two times was mild temperatures.....pr obably around 75 degrees. Last time was cool, mid 50's. Don't remember the last time I put gas in it but it has a full tank. Usually use premium, what is that these days 91 octane??
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A buddy of mine had a 98 ev we were working on that ran fine. We were just adding things hitch,spot lights ,bags things like that.
In fact we were done ready to load and go to a rally.
I had the right side cover off at the time putting in new relays and fuses.
I had reached over the bike from the left side and pushed in the front fuses. While pushing in the fuse my little finger touched some wires that went into the bottom of the relay sockets.
Put the side cover on and was going to start the bike. Nothing nada zip! What in the world happened.
On a 98 ev there is a brown wire that makes a small loop and goes in the bottom of a relay socket towards the front of the row of relays and fuses.
My little finger had hit that wire and pulled it out of its place. Pushed it back up in the hole and every thing was fine fired up ran perfect.
It was a bad crimp on the wire. Finally got the spade out of the socket and it was just built that way the crimp was bad from new the wire just never fell out till I touched it.
Very small spade unlike any I had ever seen. Finally found one at a Chevy dealership and their special crimp tool to fit it.The dealership had to buy this kit to service electrical problems that might arise in the newer pickups that used that size. They had never used any of the spades or crimping tool since they had purchased it. Took the crimp tool and new spade to my shop stripped the end of that brown wire made a good crimp slide it back into the bottom of the relay socket and off we went.
Guess my point is if that wire would have moved out of place while we were going down the road the bike would have been dead and we would have probably went crazy trying to figure out what happened while sitting along side the road.
We just got lucky that it was in my shop when it happened and the problem was visible cause the wire was dangling and I saw it. Pure de LUCK!
Your problem could be something that simple but not visible.
Lot of wires lot of crimps on spades that are inside plugs and everything like that.
I feel your pain and have no real answers except electrical problems can be hidden anywhere!! Good luck with your search.
The Bassa or any with the 1.5 small brain box does not have that brown wire go figure?
Just a story but a true story
Chet
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Thanks Chett........every little bit of information helps......maybe. :laugh:
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As though the battery was disconnected?
That is what the man's saying. There are very few things that will cause that. Should be easy to find..
I'm sure Wayne will get it. :smiley:
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I'm thinking it's a ground problem.
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Yes I agree with "creaky99". It is most likely a ground prblem from the negative of the battery. Check this ground wire and check that where it bolts to the frame that it has a good connection without paint under neath it.
Cheers
Brian :lipsrsealed:
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Thanks guys......all battery connections have been checked and re-checked.
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Lots of advice here, but no solutions as yet. So, the 'range' of suggestions can widen a bit. We'll exclude alien death ray intervention for now. Tell me what brand and model of battery you just installed. I've had lots of experience with AGM technology batteries. While they generally last a very long time, when they fail they do so often without any advance notice. Perfectly fine one minute and totally paperweight the next. I have experienced a 'brand new' failure like this in under 30 days. To be fair, once they exhibit this death symptom they usually do NOT come back to life, even a little. Do you have another bike with the same size battery? Do you have a nearby friend with the same size battery? Can you install a substitute battery and see if the symptoms go away? Grasping at straws, but the problem persists so everything is still fair game.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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You've mentioned three instances of the problem. Have there been more? Have you had the problem every time you take it out, or just "sometimes" (percentage would be good if applicable)?
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You've mentioned three instances of the problem. Have there been more? Have you had the problem every time you take it out, or just "sometimes" (percentage would be good if applicable)?
The first time this happened was during the National Relay so that will tell you how long. We were about 80 miles from the house when the bike just died. Nothing.
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You've mentioned three instances of the problem. Have there been more? Have you had the problem every time you take it out, or just "sometimes" (percentage would be good if applicable)?
I have pretty much quit riding the bike since the first and second incidents I mentioned above. The third time was a test ride to see if the new battery made a difference and it did not.
I had forgotten about the incident that George mentioned. That was a while ago and I'm not quite sure, but after I got it home from that trip I, purely by accident, jiggled some connectors under the right side steering head chrome cover that's just under the tank. It worked after that.
Patrick......I don't know exactly what kind of battery I bought, I'll have to check. I got it from Batteries Plus and it's a sealed battery. But the problem was happening before I installed the new battery.
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"I had forgotten about the incident that George mentioned. That was a while ago and I'm not quite sure, but after I got it home from that trip I, purely by accident, jiggled some connectors under the right side steering head chrome cover that's just under the tank. It worked after that"
That's where the 4 pin connector is bad on mine, harness side going to ign switch, just like shutting key off.
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"I had forgotten about the incident that George mentioned. That was a while ago and I'm not quite sure, but after I got it home from that trip I, purely by accident, jiggled some connectors under the right side steering head chrome cover that's just under the tank. It worked after that"
That's where the 4 pin connector is bad on mine, harness side going to ign switch, just like shutting key off.
Thanks Steve! That sounds like a good place to start this weekend.
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Thanks Mona, I am out of the office until Monday, I will respond then.
Roy
Sent from my shoe phone!
:laugh: :huh: :laugh: :huh: :laugh: :huh:
Dusty
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HaHa, I answered a text and it got cross threaded I guess.
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Thanks Steve! That sounds like a good place to start this weekend.
I'd start with some fresh relays.. you can get them at any auto parts store..
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HaHa, I answered a text and it got cross threaded I guess.
No worries mate , it gave me laugh , figured it was just posted in the wrong place :laugh:
Dusty
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Did the EV come out in 98 with the 15M ECU as Carl shows on his schematic, my 98 had the large Pizza box.
Carl also shows Fuse 1 in the regulator, mine used fuse 1 in the petcock
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I, purely by accident, jiggled some connectors under the right side steering head chrome cover that's just under the tank. It worked after that.
Looks to me as if you've already found it. Fix that. <shrug> :smiley:
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"I had forgotten about the incident that George mentioned. That was a while ago and I'm not quite sure, but after I got it home from that trip I, purely by accident, jiggled some connectors under the right side steering head chrome cover that's just under the tank. It worked after that"
That's where the 4 pin connector is bad on mine, harness side going to ign switch, just like shutting key off.
Steve.....are these the connectors you are talking about? This is a picture I took the first time this happened in 2009. I don't want to just "jiggle" them this time I want to try to find where the real problem is so I'm gonna pull the tank off and see if I can figure out how to test the connections.
(http://www.ulterior-design.net/photos/EV-Electrical-01.jpg)
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A visual inspection, then to try and find the actual defect manipulate the wires with the ignition on to see if you can get it to fail. Then I'd disconnect and look for bad things like corrosion and unseated wires etc. the white wire on the left looks like it is unseated. Maybe.....
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This is no help at all, but in 1999 or 2000 I could have bought a 98EV two tone blue, just like the one I have now, for $5000. That's what the dealer (Steve in Tucson ) would give him on a trade in.
The bike left him stranded a couple of times and he was mad at it and didn't want it anymore. It was probably worth twice that amount. But when you don't have 5 G's laying around...
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Dig the EV come out in 98 with the 15M ECU as Carl shows on his schematic, my 98 had the large Pizza box.
Carl also shows Fuse 1 in the regulator, mine used fuse 1 in the petcock
98EV has the larger, P8 box under the seat.
The 98EV is a bit of a chimaera. Half of the wiring looks like Carl's 98EV. The other half looks like Carl's 1100i. IIRC, any wiring related to the FI system will follow the 1100i plan. Regina and I each have 98EV. Almost identical except for color. I made a narrative plan for field identification of our fuses and relays. Maybe print this and keep it in your toolkit.
1998 V11EV RELAY AND FUSE PLAN
VIEWED FROM THE RIGHT SIDE
COUNTING REAR TOWARD FRONT
RELAY #1 Starter
RELAY #2 Horn
RELAY #3 Side Stand Safety
RELAY #4 Headlight
FUSE #1 Fuel Petcock
FUSE #2 Turn Signal Flasher � Parking Light � Instrument lights
FUSE #3 Brake Light (foot) � Horn � Starter Solenoid
FUSE #4 Brake Light (hand) � Headlights � Charging � Tachometer � Idiot Lights
RELAY #5 Fuel Injectors � Computer � Relay #6
FUSE #5 Fuel Pump Relay � Fuel Injectors - Computer
FUSE #6 Fuel Pump - Coils
RELAY #6 Fuel Pump � Coils
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Thanks Patrick, you're right it looks like the 96 California 1100i (not the Sport 1100i)
While I had my EV I ran a direct feed to the Start and Horn relay 30 it made the horns and starter work better, the headlight relay had to be disconnected from the Start relay though.
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OK....I've narrowed it down to the connector with the red arrow. I can cause the on and off problem just by wiggling the connector while holding it.
(http://www.ulterior-design.net/photos/EV-Electrical-01.jpg)
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Here is a place that has the connectors & pins or a kit. I knew you could find it.
I'm going to get a kit before I mess w/it on mine, I narrowed it down to the wire. I can then just snip, strip, and crimp on new pins then assemble the connector.
The wire is loose on mine but yours may just be corrosion on the pins.
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Here is a place that has the connectors & pins or a kit. I knew you could find it.
Hmmm....did you forget the link? :laugh:
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Yea------http://www.cycleterminal.com/amp-superseal-connectors.html
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Yea------http://www.cycleterminal.com/amp-superseal-connectors.html
Cool.....thanks! Now all I have to do is determine which connector is bad. Should be easy.......there's only 5 there. :violent1:
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OK....I've narrowed it down to the connector with the red arrow. I can cause the on and off problem just by wiggling the connector while holding it.
(http://www.ulterior-design.net/photos/EV-Electrical-01.jpg)
OK.....I now think the bad connection is in the connector without the arrow. Had a hard time isolating the two because they a tied together pretty tightly. But, I can't really isolate individual wires to find the loose one.
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Watch the wires as you turn the bars from lock to lock, do any of the wires bend excessively?
Pull hard on each wire, if one is broken under the insulation the wire will stretch.
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As someone else pointed out the white wire on the left top really looks suspicious.
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You're SO close to fixing this and having a full-time bike again...good luck!!
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Well....gave up for today. Could not find any real loose wire in the connectors. Also, still not 100% sure which connector is the problem. But, at least it's down to two connectors out the many it could be. To be continued tomorrow.
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Now that you have it narrowed down to one of the connectors that when wiggled causes the power to shut off.
While holding the connectors like you are in the picture, as Kiwi mentioned, try tugging/wiggling/moving from side to side until the power shuts off again.
That should narrow down the wire.
Another thought, either before or after moving the wires. Try unplugging the connector, inspect for corrosion, and plug back together. Then move the connector around like you did when you found that one of them caused the power to cut out. Could be just this simple??
Good luck,
Tom
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IIRC, everything shuts down when the problem occurs?
Wouldn't that narrow the choices to the wire that supplies the power?
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OK....I've narrowed it down to the connector with the red arrow. I can cause the on and off problem just by wiggling the connector while holding it.
(http://www.ulterior-design.net/photos/EV-Electrical-01.jpg)
Dang! I thought I was going to get to buy it.. cheap. :cool: :smiley:
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Well....gave up for today. Could not find any real loose wire in the connectors. Also, still not 100% sure which connector is the problem. But, at least it's down to two connectors out the many it could be. To be continued tomorrow.
Now that you are really close I suggest you attach a test light under the side cover, that's where the wires connect to the bikes brain.
I think you will find the stand relay is loosing power but it might be another point. As you wiggle the bad wire the test light will flash, the flashing light is a lot more visual than using a meter.
Good Luck
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While holding the connectors like you are in the picture, as Kiwi mentioned, try tugging/wiggling/moving from side to side until the power shuts off again.
Another thought, either before or after moving the wires. Try unplugging the connector, inspect for corrosion, and plug back together. Then move the connector around like you did when you found that one of them caused the power to cut out. Could be just this simple??
Good luck,
Tom
The problem is the connectors are so tightly bound together. Moving one just a little also moves the wires connected to the other. I unplugged both connectors and inspected them for corrosion but everything looked clean.
Dang! I thought I was going to get to buy it.. cheap. :cool: :smiley:
Make an offer.....some assembly now required. :evil:
IIRC, everything shuts down when the problem occurs?
Wouldn't that narrow the choices to the wire that supplies the power?
Yes....I would think so. I tried reading Carl Allison's wiring diagram but the one for the 98 EV on Greg Bender's site has the 15M computer. I was sure that Carl had an updated version with the P8 box and I had a copy but I cannot find it. It might have went south in the last computer upgrade.
Now that you are really close I suggest you attach a test light under the side cover, that's where the wires connect to the bikes brain.
I think you will find the stand relay is loosing power but it might be another point. As you wiggle the bad wire the test light will flash, the flashing light is a lot more visual than using a meter.
I unplugged the stand safety switch under the tank shortly after I got the bike and have never used it. Since I don't have a test light I am going to see if I can get one somewhere today. What am I looking for?
General question: Is there a way to pull the wires out of the connector? Do those connectors split in two pieces for access to the wires? Inquiring minds need to know.
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Test Light - any small 12 Volt bulb with a couple of wires attached.
An LED lamp is good to carry on the bike because it has no glass or filament to break but an incandescent is fine around the garage.
Solder a pair of wires directly to the lamp or use a socket, connect one wire to the chassis under a small screw and test the lamp first by
touching the other wire on the battery. Something like a spare turn signal will work also.
I have seen lots of 12 Volt test lamps in the auto shops that are just flimsy junk, you need something reliable or it makes the job even tougher.
Good Luck.
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OK.....I think I've narrowed it down to this green wire (the one with the yellow tape). I can initiate the off and on sequence if I wiggle this wire. The wire does not feel loose and it will only happen if I hold the connector parallel or flat to the frame (and if I'm facing South, kneeling on my left knee and holding my right leg in the air :grin:). It is harder to get it to shut off by twisting the connector alone. However, I can consistently shut the power off by holding the connector in my hand and moving the wire. So.....how do I repair this? I have to ask again, is there a way to take these connectors apart?
(http://www.ulterior-design.net/photos/20170305_131122.jpg)
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Easiest way is put a jumper in. Cut the wire out of the gang connector. Put a molex connector on the end. OR to fix as some would do. Get the tool that is for that type bullet ends. Get a packet of those connector end and go through the gang connector checking each one. Anyone can correct.
It's under the tank so I did the jumper with connectors. It solved a multitude of sins with the ignition switch going out too. It was all with the main power leads going through the harness up to the switch. The pin connectors going into the gang connector were corroded but you couldn't see it. A probe test light helped.
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Those look a lot like old GM "WEATHER PACK" connectors, there is a small tube that goes over the terminal, which pushes in the retainers, and allows the terminal and wire to be pulled from the connector.
I think I would cut the wire about 3 inches from the connector on both sides, and solder in a new piece of wire, bypassing the connector. As a temporary test, although if it fixes it I'd be tempted to leave it as is.
"There is nothing as permanent as a temporary solution."
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Now that you have found the wire that seems to be causing the problem.
Pull that connector apart and see if the female metal connector on that wire looks like it is bent open compared to the other metal connectors. Might even give the female connector a squeeze with needle nose pliers or the like, re-connect plastic connectors and try the wire again. Could have been as simple as that metal female pin was loose.
Maybe someone here knows for sure, I have never taken one of these apart......The metal wire connectors should be held into the plastic housing with two to three spring loaded tabs. On connectors that i have worked with.....there is a service tool that looks like a metal tube that you slid down the pin and it compressed the spring tabs. A watch repair type small screwdriver should be able to "work" the pins in as well.
If the metal connector/end of wire is shot, any ideas on a place to get one?? Maybe rent the proper crimper?
Hope this helps and congrats on hopefully finding the cause!!!!
Tom
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You don't actually need a connector there, you are not going to pull the bike apart are you. Just run a wire around the connector and use a couple of crimp links. Before you do that pull hard on the wire if it's broken under the insulation it will stretch, you may be able to fix it with a connector right there.
Solder and heat shrink is another way of fixing it Turn the bars from lock to lock and take note if the wires bend in one spot, copper work hardens and snaps, try to move the bend spot to a different spot in the loom.
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You can disassemble the plug by removing the plastic bit on the end where the wires go in. Then pull the wires out one at a time.
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Yes....I would think so. I tried reading Carl Allison's wiring diagram but the one for the 98 EV on Greg Bender's site has the 15M computer. I was sure that Carl had an updated version with the P8 box and I had a copy but I cannot find it. It might have went south in the last computer upgrade.
Hey, we didn't say we were going to make it easy for you.
Yes the EV doesn't really match Carls drawing
It's a bit like the 2000 Jackal, 6 relays and very similar around the sidecover wiring but it has a P8 like the 96 1100i
You are well on the way to solving it I think.
I sent you a sketch last week showing that all the fuses and relays should be alive across the top when the key is on so if you use your test light and find it's missing at one point then you trace it back the other way.
Faced with a failure on the road it's a matter of getting power to the petcock fuse and the bike will run.
This bike will turn you into an electrician, by the time you have it sorted nothing will phase you out LOL
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One more thing I was thinking about.
You could take a test light or multimeter and put one lead to ground. While the connector is still together, stick the other lead into one end of the connector where the wire goes in at the wire in question and look for power. Then wiggle the wire and see the bike turn off. If the light/meter still shows power, try the other side of the connector and repeat. This should tell you which side of the connector is loosing power.
Good luck again!!
Tom
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You can disassemble the plug by removing the plastic bit on the end where the wires go in. Then pull the wires out one at a time.
Thanks....that's what it looked like. I'll probably give that a go before I put in a jumper wire.
One more thing I was thinking about.
You could take a test light or multimeter and put one lead to ground. While the connector is still together, stick the other lead into one end of the connector where the wire goes in at the wire in question and look for power. Then wiggle the wire and see the bike turn off. If the light/meter still shows power, try the other side of the connector and repeat. This should tell you which side of the connector is loosing power.
Good luck again!!
Tom
I give that a try also but I'm pretty certain the side of the connector that I show in the picture is the problem.
You don't actually need a connector there, you are not going to pull the bike apart are you. Just run a wire around the connector and use a couple of crimp links. Before you do that pull hard on the wire if it's broken under the insulation it will stretch, you may be able to fix it with a connector right there.
Solder and heat shrink is another way of fixing it Turn the bars from lock to lock and take note if the wires bend in one spot, copper work hardens and snaps, try to move the bend spot to a different spot in the loom.
A jumper wire may be my best bet but given my limited abilities and past experiences repairing electrical connections, that link would always be suspect. That said, it sill might be the best way to fix this.
Hey, we didn't say we were going to make it easy for you.
Yes the EV doesn't really match Carls drawing
It's a bit like the 2000 Jackal, 6 relays and very similar around the sidecover wiring but it has a P8 like the 96 1100i
This is the diagram I was thinking about. I think this is correct for the P8 brain box. http://guzzitek.org/schemas_electriques/gb/1100/1100EV_P8_1997.gif (http://guzzitek.org/schemas_electriques/gb/1100/1100EV_P8_1997.gif)
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Some clarification please. The original poster has asked several times how to take the connectors apart, I am assuming he means split them at the parting line, since there is not a picture of them split. Usually there is a tab that needs to be manipulated to release the two halfs. It's been so long since I've fooled with that particular pair that I don't remember. Can anybody enlighten us?
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John, I read it to mean the OP wants to pull wires from a separated connection and needs to disassemble a connector half to access the wires. Prying the ends of the bottom cap away from the locking tabs on the connector slab will allow him to open up the connector. The trick is to keep track of the wire positions in case more than one at a time is removed.
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John, I read it to mean the OP wants to pull wires from a separated connection and needs to disassemble a connector half to access the wires. Prying the ends of the bottom cap away from the locking tabs on the connector slab will allow him to open up the connector. The trick is to keep track of the wire positions in case more than one at a time is removed.
That's what it looked like to me. I started to experiment but didn't have a good plan for keeping track of the wire locations. Also figured I'd better ask first and act later. Thanks RK!
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Where is the ignition switch in that last diagram?
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Where is the ignition switch in that last diagram?
Item 17 at the top of the page "Starter Switch".
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OK I think I'm following along now. That green wire connects fuse F2 to the Ignition switch "on" if I read the diagram correctly. "B" connecter, "A" terminal. If that is true it should not be the problem, F2 feeds parking lights & turn signals. wrong wiring diagram, this one is for a 15M
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What all shuts off when you make it fail? I think you are close so don't go insane yet. that green wire goes to the 4 hole connector of the ignition switch. are you sure its a good contact through the "B" connector? they are labeled with a letter on the harness sleeve near the connector. the wires are labeled with a raised letter on the connector where the wire goes in
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What all shuts off when you make it fail? I think you are close so don't go insane yet. that green wire goes to the 4 hole connector of the ignition switch. are you sure its a good contact through the "B" connector? they are labeled with a letter on the harness sleeve near the connector. the wires are labeled with a raised letter on the connector where the wire goes in
John.....everything shuts off as if the battery were disconnected. And, as far as going insane......to late. :drool: :shocked:
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so what does that wire look like inside the connector? can you clamp the connector so it doesn't move and wiggle just the wire? of course trying to pinpoint the actual fail spot. sanity is only relative........... ...
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That's actually a good idea. Don't know if I have enough room for even a smallish clamp.
Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
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I used slices of foam from pipe insulation between wires then wrapped w/elec tape to stabilize wire movement then wire ties to gusset on frame.
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The '98 EV, one of the most popular Guzzis ever I'd wager, and one of the most aggravating too.
I can't help much on this one Tony, but I'm waiting for the outcome, which seems to be imminent.
Don't feel like the Lone Ranger though; I had a intermittent (and serious) problem for years on my '98. Once sorted out, it has been ultra reliable, only requiring normal maintenance, occasional bows to Guzzi quirkiness and minor repairs.
I'm sure yours will be fixed soon, and you can ride with confidence.
:thumb:
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Previously you showed a pic of the "A" connector and said it was the trouble, then showed the "B" connector and said it was the problem so it needs to be isolated . I'll give you a hunnerd bones for the bike, if you deliver it :evil: :grin: best to get offers in now
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Previously you showed a pic of the "A" connector and said it was the trouble, then showed the "B" connector and said it was the problem so it needs to be isolated . I'll give you a hunnerd bones for the bike, if you deliver it :evil: :grin: best to get offers in now
Going back in tonight (time is my enemy) with the help of a friend. Hopefully a fresh pair of eyes and and uncluttered brain will help. I was bouncing back and forth between connectors because they are tied so closely together I couldn't tell which was the problem. Then I happened upon the green wire in "B" which seemed to give a consistent fault when I moved it. I'm gonna try to clamp the connectors down and just wiggle the wires to see where I stand. As far as selling the bike......if I could deliver it, that might mean that I found the problem and the price would go up.....exponentiall y. :boozing:
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sounds like a plan, hopefully it doesn't quit failing before you discover the real culprit. I wonder if that green wire powers other stuff thru the ignition switch or if the green wire powers the fuse thru the ignition switch.
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I'll give you double, and you won't have to deliver it anywhere on account of I'll fix it on the spot and ride it home.
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that's boastful talk for a old hippie
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. ..an old hippie with a test light and a crimping pliars. :azn: . . .and to make it interesting, I'll leave one or the other at home. :whip2:
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Let's make it a challenge David - you only have 25 minutes to get it done LOL
Sent from my shoe phone!
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lets get likkered up so we can give him "helpful technical advice"
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lets get likkered up so we can give him "helpful technical advice"
You must have been at the tent raising party - Deep Woods 2 years ago
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30 minutes or it's free? Sure. I might not have it fixed in 30min, but I can point to the offender in that amount of time. I just get to pick a day when my hands are working well enough to manage wires.
John, I like how you think. You may attend the proceedings to hold my beer. :boozing:
You must have been at the tent raising party. Deep Woods 2 years ago.
Yeah, at Deep Forest we needed far more beer holders and far less technical advice. :shocked:
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So......how much beer do I need put on ice and how much duct tape do I need?
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I'm a lightweight, so a couple of cases ought to do me. That John though . . . :shocked: I saw him get through an entire soda in one sitting. And don't get me started on his out-of-control coffee habit! He has a tall one for BREAKFAST! And Roy -- he's from BC. Need I say more?
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I'm starting to fear for the safety of the EV. :evil:
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OK.....with a little help from a friend (he works part time at my favorite BMW Airhead shop) we feel pretty confident the connection at the green wire is suspect. I got the female connector out of the case and the connection between the wire and the connector looks sound. I have not yet got the male connector out of the case as it looks like it's forced in much deeper than the female. We have come to the conclusion that the physical connection between the two metal connectors is not tight and that is why we could recreate the fault by wiggling the wire. We tried putting a slight twist on the male connector but that didn't help. So, unless I can get the male connector out I will just by-pass the connector all together.
Here's what I have.
(http://www.ulterior-design.net/photos/20170308_082331.jpg)
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Sorry, did not notice the thread before....
You are on the right track...
Follow those cables from A and B (and right handlebar switch) to the steering head. The cables are usually under the chrome covers and flex where the chrome covers end.
I bet you a beer (if we ever meet) you have a broken cable at that point, from the lock or kill switch (depending on what dies) or one of the grounds.
Second thing would be the lock itself. Either only the turn signals and rear light dies or everything. Unscrew the bottom part of the lock, spray as much contact spray in the lock as you can, use an electric screwdriver with a flat head to turn the lock around a gazillion times, blow out stuff with compressed air, reassemble, do it annually... :)
Do not ask how I know....
(https://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/14/57/95/05/fes10.jpg)
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Slow progress. Last night I was able to get both pins out of the connector. Then I ran a wire between the pins, bypassing the connector. On the surface it seemed to work. Might just be me hoping this is nearing the end. I'm going to try to figure out a way to better secure this connection then ride it for a couple of days (if it last that long) and see what happens. If this is truly the fix then I'll have to figure out what the next step will be. Maybe I'll just wait for guzzisteve to get his box of connectors and crimp then pay him a visit.
(http://www.ulterior-design.net/photos/20170308_173337.jpg)
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If everything lights up when you turn the key then you fixed it. :thumb:
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Hi,
Any update?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Thank you.
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Hi,
Any update?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Thank you.
Hey maurice, that last pic is the last thing I've done. Went out of town this past weekend and winter settled in for an encore here in SC before letting spring take the stage. I'm planning on loosely slapping everything back together and riding it for a couple of days to see how it works. Probably towards the end of the week (have to get some heat going in my garage). If I'm satisfied that it's working correctly, then I'll figure put a more permanent fix.
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:popcorn:
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Hey maurice, that last pic is the last thing I've done. Went out of town this past weekend and winter settled in for an encore here in SC before letting spring take the stage. I'm planning on loosely slapping everything back together and riding it for a couple of days to see how it works. Probably towards the end of the week (have to get some heat going in my garage). If I'm satisfied that it's working correctly, then I'll figure put a more permanent fix.
Hi Tony,
Thanks for the update.
My curiosity is selfish. I've a 99 EV. Keep reading about electrical gremlins on these bikes. Sounds like it's more a matter of when and not if.
Glad to read that you're real close to marking this issue as fixed.
:smiley:
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I ran into a similar problem with my Lario a few weeks ago, riding along and it just died, then came back on a short while later. Turned out to be a couple of Molex connectors in the loom under the tank, Both the red wire up to the ignition switch and the Brown wire from switch to fuse block were overheating.
I went to all the trouble of getting replacement pins but in the end just crimped the wires around the connector, why set myself up for a future failure, a crimp will last forever.
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I ran into a similar problem with my Lario, riding along and it just died, then came back on a short while later. Turned out to be a couple of Molex connectors in the loom under the tank, Both the red wire up to the ignition switch and the Brown wire from switch to fuse block were overheating.
I went to all the trouble of getting replacement pins but in the end just crimped the wires around the connector, why set myself up for a future failure, a crimp will last forever.
Yep. http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=89960.0 (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=89960.0)