V7 clutch slip

[johnpaulcim]

Hi all. Looking for some collective wisdom. I have a 2013 V7 special with about 14,000 fairly easy miles on it. The other day I was passing a car on the highway and when I cranked the throttle the tachometer spun, but the bike did not accelerate accordingly. I have recreated this scenario several times since, and it seems to only happen in fifth gear at high speed. I can recreate this by traveling about 75 - 80mph and twisting the throttle. The cable seems to be adjusted properly at the clutch lever, but I have not tried messing with the clutch arm. Is it possible that the clutch is going at 14,000 miles? Seems really early in the life of the bike for that. Is there anything else that would cause this symptom? Thanks for any input/advice. 

[pehayes]

We don't know your history.  Tell us what "...adjusted properly..." means regarding the clutch.  Can you see the actuator arm on the transmission?  If you pull on the hand lever with just one finger, does that actuator arm move?  Can you see if the actuator arm is butting up against any part of the frame or other components?

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[twowheeladdict]

I've seen a clutch get burned out in a couple minutes when a guy was revving the snot out of the bike while feathering the clutch trying to get the bike up a steep mountain gravel driveway.  So, sure, a clutch can be spent at 14,000 miles.  It really isn't related to miles as it is to full engagement and how often you start out and shift gears and your shifting technique.

Strange that it only happens in 5th gear though.  I would think the lower gears put more stress on the clutch plates due to gear ratios if you are doing full throttle accelerations.

[johnpaulcim]

We don't know your history.  Tell us what "...adjusted properly..." means regarding the clutch.  Can you see the actuator arm on the transmission?  If you pull on the hand lever with just one finger, does that actuator arm move?  Can you see if the actuator arm is butting up against any part of the frame or other components?

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

By "adjusted property", I mean that there is a few mm of free play at the hand lever. I can see the actuator arm, and I will check if it moves when I pull the lever with just one finger, and whether it appears to be butting up against anything later today. Thank you for the advice. 

[johnpaulcim]

I've seen a clutch get burned out in a couple minutes when a guy was revving the snot out of the bike while feathering the clutch trying to get the bike up a steep mountain gravel driveway.  So, sure, a clutch can be spent at 14,000 miles.  It really isn't related to miles as it is to full engagement and how often you start out and shift gears and your shifting technique.

Strange that it only happens in 5th gear though.  I would think the lower gears put more stress on the clutch plates due to gear ratios if you are doing full throttle accelerations.

Thanks for the reply. I have only noticed it in 5th gear, but honestly I don't really do full throttle accelerations often. I attempted it once, just because I was trying to pass by an erratic cell-phone-wielding driver on the highway fast, and that was when I noticed it slip. I then did it a couple of times after that to recreate the same scenario to see if it would do it again, and it did. Perhaps if I attempted to do a full throttle acceleration in lower gears it would do the same. I hadn't actually thought about it till now.

[pehayes]

Strange that it only happens in 5th gear though.  I would think the lower gears put more stress on the clutch plates due to gear ratios if you are doing full throttle accelerations.

That is the typical classic symptom of a slipping clutch.  High gear actually creates the greatest friction stress and slippage will always show there first.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Old Jock]

I don't know the later bikes at all

Usually with me when a clutch starts to slip it manifests itself in top gear (I don't even know how many gears the V7 has)

If the set up is similar to the older bikes it's essential that the clutch arm doesn't excert force onto the pushrod when the clutch is engaged (when you are not opertating it).

If it does it can lead to premature wear so IF they are similar to the older machines then cable and linkage play is the first point I'd start with

John

[johnpaulcim]

I don't know the later bikes at all

Usually with me when a clutch starts to slip it manifests itself in top gear (I don't even know how many gears the V7 has)

If the set up is similar to the older bikes it's essential that the clutch arm doesn't excert force onto the pushrod when the clutch is engaged (when you are not opertating it).

If it does it can lead to premature wear so IF they are similar to the older machines then cable and linkage play is the first point I'd start with

John

Thanks. 5th Gear is top gear on my V7. I believe they have 6 now, but that switch happened some time after 2013. I am not an old hand when it comes to Guzzis, this being my first one, but from what I understand the clutch system has not changed much over the years. I will double check the lever free play, look over the cable, and check out the clutch arm. Hoping it is something simple and not a worn out clutch already.

[John A]

clutch is rooted, might as well put new plates in

[johnpaulcim]

clutch is rooted, might as well put new plates in

That's not reassuring....

[malik]

Your symptoms sounds like the first signs of a slipping clutch. On the right hand side of the bell housing, there's a rubber bung. Pull that off, stick your finger in and move it around. Dust from the clutch is normal, but if mixed with oil, you have a leak - oil is getting on the clutch, and it doesn't like it. The possibilities are, I believe, only 3 - either oil is leaking past the main engine seal, from the main seal on the gearbox, or from a failed clutch pushrod seal. The last, is I think, the most likely. I have had 3 go, all at around 100,000km (60,000 mi). Yours is somewhat premature, perhaps, but the bad news is that to find out which (& fix it) the engine has to come out - and that's a, say, 6 hour job at a workshop that knows what it's doing.

If you find oil in the bell housing (some people can tell by the smell whether it's gearbox or engine oil), I think your options are limited. Unlike the early Nevada's, I don't think our bell housings came with a drain hole, so spraying brake cleaner in there is an unlikely cure. I found that putting 900ml in the gearbox, instead of the usual 1L relieved the symptoms a little, but only temporarily. If you ride carefully - avoiding full throttle under load, and changing down earlier than usual, you could likely get another 10 - 30,000 km out of it. It's OK, but you just can't thrash it in the twisties, up hills, or overtake in marginal situations with any confidence.

If the bell housing is dry, it's something else.

Good luck.

[sign216]

Malik,
I've got an '09 V7 and I think it's got a drain hole in the bell housing.  That's still 4 years earlier than the OP's bike, but it's one data point.

14k miles is early for a clutch to go, but it the OP was ham-handed then it's possible.  My sympathies. 

Joe

[SmithSwede]

I can confirm that the bell housing of a 2013 V7 Stone does have a drain hole.  It is a square shaped hole at the bottom of the bell house, just a bit off center.  Unlike some parts diagrams seem to show, there is not a bolt you unscrew to drain the bell housing.  The square shaped hole is always open.

Like Malik, my first clutch also started to slip around 60,000 miles. And yes, you can first detect it by hard acceleration in top gear. 

I suggest you make double darn sure there is no tension on the clutch cable, and the actuating arm  on the back of the transmission is free to travel all the way out, in other words, the top of the arm is free to move towards the rear wheel.  There is a spring that is supposed to push it out that way when not under the influence of the clutch cable.  I would lubricate the pivot points of the actuating arm, and manually move it backwards to see if it is somehow unable to relax pressure.  I would also loosen my clutch cable a lot, so that you are absolutely certain there is no tension on the arm when the clutch lever is released.   If the clutch still slips, at least you know the problem is not some simple problem with adjustment of cable or actuator arm.

Put a piece of white paper under the bike beneath the square shaped hole.   See if you get any drips of engine oil or transmission oil.  You can also remove the rubber hole and use you finger to see if there is oil inside (with the engine not running).    I think a few small drops every now and then is probably normal.  When my clutch failed, I was regularly getting quarter sized splots of oil every time the bike was parked, which then turned into oil spots about 2 or 3 inches in diameter. 

If oil is the problem, you may be able to plug up the square shaped hole and fill the transmission with lacquer thinner in a desperate attempt to clean the oil off the plates.  I have no idea if that actually works.  And if the oil keeps leaking this won't be a long term solution. 

If you do have to replace the clutch, be sure to replace all the seals on the clutch rod.  They are cheap and you are right there anyway.

Also take a close look at the transmission input shaft bearing.   Mine failed at the first clutch change, at 60,000 miles.  It was totally shot.   I've heard these often fail.  Again, since you are right there anyway, might as well replace the cheap bearing if it is suspect.   

[SmithSwede]

I suspect that sometimes the seals leak because one or more bearings or other components have failed, and the shaft wobbles around and vibrates abnormally.  The seal can't keep the oil in under those circumstances. 

Before I noticed that my drive shaft couplers had failed at 86,000 miles, I was beginning to get a really noticeable leak out of the final drive housing.  I was fully expecting the seals were worn out and I would need to replace them.     

But after I replaced the failed couplings on the drive shaft, the bike was clearly much smoother (the change was so gradual I had not noticed it getting bad).    And sure enough, the leak on the final drive stopped.     

At least that's my theory.   

[malik]

I'm ready to stand corrected about the hole in the bell housing - it's not something I've particularly taken note of, but I'll check later today when I've 4 gearboxes in my hot little hands - forest & tree stuff, if there is a hole, you could try liberally spraying brake clear around inside & see if that relieves the symptoms (temporarily).

Its my guess that the leaking pushrod seal allows a small amount of oil to seep up the pushrod, and onto the cup, where it seems to travel to the plate & then gets flung around the inside of the bell housing. On the Special, at least, it's wetter around the rod & the cup. The oil appears to mix with the powder worn off the friction plate in healthier times. There doesn't seem to be enough oil to pool & drip. Unlike the time the main gearbox bearing collapsed & its remnants rushed up and down the shaft, damaging the gearbox seal. Then there was lots of gear oil pooling on the ground under the bike.

The first time, the stuff inside the bell housing had a pretty pink tinge (just like a mate's T3  Cali did), but the subsequent 2 times it's all black. Perhaps a different compound on the friction plates?

[johnpaulcim]

Wow. Thanks for all the input and advice guys. I had a chance to look it over today. It did appear a bit gritty around the clutch arm, and I took SmithSwede’s advice and loosened the clutch lever to be sure that there really was not tension in the clutch arm, then I gave the bike a good wash, making sure to clean our all of the grit and funk around the area of the arm. Once dry I sprayed the arm and as much of the cable as I could get to with dry graphite lube while pulling the clutch lever in and out to get to all of the moving bits. Then I took it for a ride and tried to replicate the scenario where it was slipping. It did not slip. Tried it several times, and no slippage. I don’t know it I’m in the clear, but hopeful at this point. I’ll keep an eye on it and see if it comes back.  Thanks for all of the education and advice. This forum is great. I generally just lurk to learn a thing or two when I have time.  Hopefully I’ll learn enough about these guzzis to be helpful to someone else one day. Oh, I also pulled the rubber plug from the bell housing and stuck my finger in it. There was definitely some wet sooty grime in there. It doesn’t seem oily so much as like wet soot. I wiped it on a white paper towel and it seemed to quickly dry into a dry black spot suggesting that it was wet with water rather than oil. Thoughts?

[SmithSwede]

Excellent news!   Maybe it was just gritty.  Keep us posted. 

Fancy lubricants?  Hmm.

I’m a big fan of Automatic Transmission Fluid.  It’s super cheap (Guzzi content).  It creeps into small spaces.   Doesn’t make a mess.  Easy to use an oiler to squirt a bit into various places
Every thousand miles or so.

[johnpaulcim]

Fancy   
I used graphite lube because it’s what I have in hand. I bought a spray can of it when it became difficult to get a key into the gas cap locking mechanism on my v7 has tank. I was told that this was the stuff to use for keyholes. It only took a tiny bit of it and it came in a full spray paint size spray can, so I’ve used it on everything I can find since. When it finally runs out, maybe I’ll buy a jug of automatic transmission fluid

[SmithSwede]

Befriend someone at a local transmission shop.  Have them give you several gallons of gently used ATF for free.   Strain it through old underwear.

This is the Guzzi way.   

[John A]

Im surprised, in my experience once they've slipped a few times they don't come back.  Third gear on a hard pull like passing someone is where you can tell if the clutch slips.  To do a mineral spirits clutch wash,  make a plug out of a toungue  depressor like a wedge to plug the rectangle drain hole in the bellhousing. Pull the starter and make a cover for the hole. fill the bellhousing thru the timing hole, I use a compressor& siphon gun stuck in a gallon of Mineral Spirits, about 12 bones at a local Try&save. You can leave the starter on but it may fill with spirits.  Work the clutch, rotate the flywheel 180 degrees working clutch, drain, repeat  three or so times. Then blow it all out and start it up,  work the clutch with no load,  build some heat in the engine, shut it down and let it dry. I put a clamp on the hand lever to open the plates.  The reason I say mineral spirits is because it is a good oil solvent and will not hurt seals. good luck, some times it works well

[malik]

Wow. Thanks for all the input and advice guys. I had a chance to look it over today. It did appear a bit gritty around the clutch arm, and I took SmithSwede’s advice and loosened the clutch lever to be sure that there really was not tension in the clutch arm, then I gave the bike a good wash, making sure to clean our all of the grit and funk around the area of the arm. Once dry I sprayed the arm and as much of the cable as I could get to with dry graphite lube while pulling the clutch lever in and out to get to all of the moving bits. Then I took it for a ride and tried to replicate the scenario where it was slipping. It did not slip. Tried it several times, and no slippage. I don’t know it I’m in the clear, but hopeful at this point. I’ll keep an eye on it and see if it comes back.  Thanks for all of the education and advice. This forum is great. I generally just lurk to learn a thing or two when I have time.  Hopefully I’ll learn enough about these guzzis to be helpful to someone else one day. Oh, I also pulled the rubber plug from the bell housing and stuck my finger in it. There was definitely some wet sooty grime in there. It doesn’t seem oily so much as like wet soot. I wiped it on a white paper towel and it seemed to quickly dry into a dry black spot suggesting that it was wet with water rather than oil. Thoughts?

Winner! Wet but gritty inside the bell housing? With any luck, it's just moisture. From the atmosphere. Carry on, blithely.

Once you start losing adjustment space at the lever at the handlebar, you'll have to learn how to adjust the pull at the bottom end behind the lever arm. Search here for Pete Roper's instructions on clutch adjustment, store it somewhere convenient for when you need it. It's almost impossible, at least extremely awkward, to do it with with the rear wheel on without having the hands of a leprechaun surgeon, so it's a job best done when you're replacing the rear tyre. Wheel off, bevel box off (to drain any water out of there & grease the pinions), and tie the swingarm up out of the way for access. Be careful not to let the swingarm drop - otherwise you can bend or break the first tie rod on the linkage after the selector shaft (ask me how I know - new ones are difficult to get hold of). It's even better to take the swingarm off (stunningly easy off & on) - then you can also grease the drive shaft itself - should be done at least once, the earlier the better, just in case water gets in & starts the rust.

Then there's clear access to the rear of the gearbox and the lever arm. You can see the locknut 13mm) on the adjuster with its 3mm tang - either find a 3mm spanner, or make one - a finger of metal with a cut from a 3mm angle grinder or file works. Check the working of the lever arm on its clevis pin (& keep an eye on the spring behind the arm - without the tension of the cable they have a tendency to jump out & disappear). I'd lube with clevis pin with something penetrating - of the 6 or more I've taken off, one clevis pin was frozen on those lugs on the gearbox cover  - a positive pain to get off to fix. A little preventative action when you've the time & inclination could save some later grief.

[johnpaulcim]

Im surprised, in my experience once they've slipped a few times they don't come back.  Third gear on a hard pull like passing someone is where you can tell if the clutch slips.  To do a mineral spirits clutch wash,  make a plug out of a toungue  depressor like a wedge to plug the rectangle drain hole in the bellhousing. Pull the starter and make a cover for the hole. fill the bellhousing thru the timing hole, I use a compressor& siphon gun stuck in a gallon of Mineral Spirits, about 12 bones at a local Try&save. You can leave the starter on but it may fill with spirits.  Work the clutch, rotate the flywheel 180 degrees working clutch, drain, repeat  three or so times. Then blow it all out and start it up,  work the clutch with no load,  build some heat, shut it down and let it dry. I put a clamp on the hand lever to open the plates.  The reason I say mineral spirits is because it is a good oil solvent and will not hurt seals. good luck, some times it works well

Next time I have a chance I'll give it some hard pulls in third gear to see if it slips in that scenario. I'm hopeful that it was just a bit too snug in the cable and/or that the arm or cable were binding up on something and not fully engaging the clutch. I thought it was adjusted correctly, but to be sure I loosened the cable up to where it actually feels very loose to me. It is still shifting fine though, so maybe there is just more slack needed than on previous bikes that I've owned. I don't know.

[sign216]

That adjustment nub on the bottom back of the transmission is a bear to deal with.  Using a bicycle spoke wrench is a good approach because it has many small variations in size.  Conventional wrenches don't fit well.

Joe

[John A]

That adjustment nub on the bottom back of the transmission is a bear to deal with.  Using a bicycle spoke wrench is a good approach because it has many small variations in size.  Conventional wrenches don't fit well.

Joe

that's a cool little wrench,  I'll need to stop at bicycle shop

[johnpaulcim]

Well, should have known it was too good to be true. Felt the clutch slip again. Took a closer look through the timing/inspection hole with a little flashlight, cocking my head awkwardly while shining the light in to try and see what was going on in there, and sure enough when I had my head tilted just right so that I could glimpse the surface of the bell housing near the bottom, it was glistening with oil like Luigi's hair on a Saturday night. I also discovered oil at the seam where the bell housing meets the block. I guess I've got an oil leak in there somewhere.... Either the main seal or the gear box seal, I take it... Ugh.

[twowheeladdict]

Well, should have known it was too good to be true. Felt the clutch slip again. Took a closer look through the timing/inspection hole with a little flashlight, cocking my head awkwardly while shining the light in to try and see what was going on in there, and sure enough when I had my head tilted just right so that I could glimpse the surface of the bell housing near the bottom, it was glistening with oil like Luigi's hair on a Saturday night. I also discovered oil at the seam where the bell housing meets the block. I guess I've got an oil leak in there somewhere.... Either the main seal or the gear box seal, I take it... Ugh.

Sorry to hear.  Hopefully you can knock it out on a weekend, or have a competent technician nearby, or can trade it in on something else. 

[John A]

If we knew roughly where you were located we could maybe give directed help

[johnpaulcim]

If we knew roughly where you were located we could maybe give directed help

Williamsburg, VA

[John A]

Well that's a fur piece from me.  the good news is its fairly easy, theres a lot to it but if you are a mechanical wizard, its just disassemble and reassemble,  paying attention to detail

[johnpaulcim]

Well that's a fur piece from me.  the good news is its fairly easy, theres a lot to it but if you are a mechanical wizard, its just disassemble and reassemble,  paying attention to detail

Well, that's somewhat reassuring. I am mechanically inclined enough, I think, but this is my first Moto Guzzi experience, so I'm on a bit of a learning curve. I was not anticipating becoming this well acquainted with her inner beauty this early in our relationship, but c'est la vie.

Guess it's time to start making a list of the parts and any special tools that I'll need, and to stock up on beer....