City of Gold Project

[LandyLou]

Glad to be here, needed a place to get some expert advice about a new project: 1972 Eldorado.





I got it free from my cousin, which is the kind of deal I can work with ;) Usually I'm skeptical of the "it ran when it was parked" line, but I think it's true in this case. 13 years sitting around is a long time though. I've worked on plenty of bikes, but usually just fun mods, general maintenance, or getting a bike that was recently running going again. This would be my biggest bike project to date...

I found this unofficial manual online, but I'm not sure how good it is. Some of the pics don't look like my bike, and some of the info contradicts other into I found online. Do any of you guys know it?

https://www.cyclegarden.com/pdf/850%20Eldorado%20Rider's%20Handbook.pdf

If it's legit, that would be a good resource for all of the standard maintenance stuff (spark plugs, oil, etc). That's the easy starting point on this project: battery, plugs (and maybe wires), and change all the oils.

It's everything after that that I'd love some help with. I'm a bit anxious about the unknown: what things I might break if I try to get her going too soon. I guess the big question is: Can I just do those things and try to start her and see what happens?

Known issues just from moving her about: clutch lever is super stiff, as is the throttle. Not sure is that is just a cable lube issue or something more challenging. Didn't seem to have much braking power. Plenty of rust and grime, though not sure how much is just cosmetic and how much will affect operation...

My goal is not to restore her, I certainly don't have the money or knowledge, but would be a fun bike to ride around. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

-LL

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Just about all of the information you seek is on this website:
http://thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe.html

You might also consider joining this group (although it's in the process of moving somewhere else):
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Loopframe_Guzzi/conversations/messages

And, if you "do" Facebook, here's the group for you there:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/443145212841620/

Until you know just what cylinders you have, I would not attempt to start it. If they are the original cylinders with chrome-plated bores, then you could do some damage by starting it. It's easy enough to find out just what you have: remove a sparkplug, make sure the piston is down away from TDC, insert a "pencil magnet" in through the sparkplug hole and touch the cylinder wall. No magnetic attraction = chrome, very slight = Nikasil/Nigusil, strong = iron liners.

[Tom H]

What Charlie said.

The brakes. They don't work, that's how they should be 

Clutch. Always hard to pull, that's how it should be. 

Throttle. You will find it easier over time when you develop a forearm like Popeye. 

Couldn't help it. The brakes work great if adjusted right. Clutch can be hard to pull depending on the spring set in it, lube the cable I'm sure would help. Throttle, it's just the way it is with the springs. Again, cable lube may help.

Also, if your comparing this to a modern bike, nothing will feel the same.

Have fun and ask away when you need help!
Tom

[LandyLou]

Thanks for the quick replies, guys!
This old tractor seems to be a gold mine, and I'm awaiting acceptance into the FB group.

Until you know just what cylinders you have, I would not attempt to start it. If they are the original cylinders with chrome-plated bores, then you could do some damage by starting it. It's easy enough to find out just what you have: remove a sparkplug, make sure the piston is down away from TDC, insert a "pencil magnet" in through the sparkplug hole and touch the cylinder wall. No magnetic attraction = chrome, very slight = Nikasil/Nigusil, strong = iron liners.

Doesn't seem so complicated to find out, except that I'm not quite sure what to do with the information once I have it ;) Does it have to do with how they would or wouldn't rust? Or something else I havent' thought of maybe? ...

-LL

[Kiwi_Roy]

And they are more fun to ride than most modern bikes.
You have obviously lost the battery box and the air cleaner, look out for those.

[pehayes]

Does it have to do with how they would or wouldn't rust? Or something else

Chrome lining can flake off and then get carried throughout the engine in the oil stream.  Bad juju.  If you still have original chrome lining, ditch it for more modern Nikasil coatings.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[LandyLou]

You have obviously lost the battery box and the air cleaner, look out for those.

Indeed ;) My cousin thinks he might have the little tool boxes somewhere, but doesn't have the battery box or covers. There were two small K&N air filters and a big flat, box style air filter in the box of parts. I think the big one is the original, but not sure.

Chrome lining can flake off and then get carried throughout the engine in the oil stream.  Bad juju.  If you still have original chrome lining, ditch it for more modern Nikasil coatings.

Ah, got it. I'll worry about how to do that if we come to it...

Thanks, gents...

-LL

[JC85]

If you do need to replace the cylinders, it's an incredibly easy job with basic hand tools to do. I recently did mine. Some pics and explanation, here: https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=100064.0

If you have any other questions about it, feel free to ask me or, even better, Charlie. He is an absolute Guru when it comes to these machines.

[LandyLou]

I guess this doesn't belong in the build/rebuild section?  Is it because I said I wasn't going to do a full restoration? 

If you do need to replace the cylinders, it's an incredibly easy job with basic hand tools to do. I recently did mine. Some pics and explanation, here: https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=100064.0

If you have any other questions about it, feel free to ask me or, even better, Charlie. He is an absolute Guru when it comes to these machines.

This is why the internet is awesome ;)

On another note: anyone know how similar VHB 28s are to the 30s? I found a pretty clear carb rebuild video, and the creator says they're all pretty much the same, but wanted to check in here first...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcFGMNdfUR4
EDIT: I think it should be fine. The rebuild kits don't discriminate, so I won't either ;)

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I guess this doesn't belong in the build/rebuild section?  Is it because I said I wasn't going to do a full restoration? 
This is why the internet is awesome ;)

On another note: anyone know how similar VHB 28s are to the 30s? I found a pretty clear carb rebuild video, and the creator says they're all pretty much the same, but wanted to check in here first...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcFGMNdfUR4
EDIT: I think it should be fine. The rebuild kits don't discriminate, so I won't either ;)

Right now you're only gathering information, so that's why it was moved. Once you're actually working on the bike, and posting photos of your progress, then that would go in the "rebuilds" section.

That's not a good video to follow for two reasons: 1) it doesn't show the version of VHBs that Guzzis use - ours have accelerator pumps and those don't. 2) He's putting o-rings on the idle mixture and idle stop screws when there probably shouldn't be any. VHBs used on Guzzis don't have them and if the ones shown in the video were supposed to, there would been backer washers between the springs and o-rings.

This tutorial is much better: http://thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_carburetor_rebuild_-__vhb.html

Supplies of standard (83 mm) bore Gilardoni kits are drying up and I don't expect them to run off another batch. At some point it was bound to happen. Maybe someone else will offer kits (Stein-Dinse?). It's not the end of the world if they don't - Mark at Moto Guzzi Classics has CP Pistons and Millennium Technologies can replate the original cylinders. Many times it's possible to reuse the original pistons.

[LandyLou]

Thanks everyone for the help!

Busy work weekend, so no actual work on the bike, but I did manage to order a lot of helpful parts. The thisoldtractor.com tip was perfect, especially for the recommended basics (battery, spark plugs, oil, etc). Also the mgcycle.com for the MG specifics (carb rebuild kits, and a few other important small parts that I've noticed were missing.)

Pulled a plug, and tested the bores with a magnet as recommended. Seems that the cylinder bores are slightly magnetic, so I guess Nikasil coated. All I really care about is that I don't have to do anything with them

Onward and upward...

-LL

[nick949]

Just a quick point LandyLou.  It is totally worth getting that bike back into fighting fit form again, regardless of cost - not because it will be worth a fortune but because once sorted, they are a wonderful, robust totally usable classic.

People put big miles on these old girls because they are charming to ride, tireless, comfortable and just as happy rolling across the continent as down to the local bike show-and-tell.

Get yours fit, head out on some serious adventures then tell us all about it here.

Good luck

Nick

(if you're looking for a little inspiration https://youtu.be/tmjEIr99mog )

[Chuck in Indiana]

Seems that the cylinder bores are slightly magnetic, so I guess Nikasil coated.

From the looks of that bike, I would be *very* surprised if it has  Gilardoni cylinders. If it does, Gilardoni will be cast into the base of the cylinder.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

From the looks of that bike, I would be *very* surprised if it has  Gilardoni cylinders. If it does, Gilardoni will be cast into the base of the cylinder.

Not necessarily. The last half-dozen sets I've bought didn't have the cast-in name and weren't in Gilardoni boxes.

[LandyLou]

Thanks for the continued wealth of knowledge!




I always like a definitive solve ;) I also got ahold of the PO (easier than usual since he's family). Confirmed the nikasil bores. Other notable mods he told me about: timing gear upgrade and balanced crank.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Thanks for the continued wealth of knowledge!




I always like a definitive solve ;) I also got ahold of the PO (easier than usual since he's family). Confirmed the nikasil bores. Other notable mods he told me about: timing gear upgrade and balanced crank.

Good deal! Did he shed any light on whether that's a later engine or not? Sure looks like it - or at least later heads (two studs securing the exhaust flanges, fin configuration aft of the sparkplug). What's the number stamped into the engine case?

[LandyLou]

Good deal! Did he shed any light on whether that's a later engine or not? Sure looks like it - or at least later heads (two studs securing the exhaust flanges, fin configuration aft of the sparkplug). What's the number stamped into the engine case?

He mentioned that it had heads off a v1000.

Regarding the serial numbers, the frame and engine are indeed different:







Any clues?

[Chuck in Indiana]

Charlie is your guy here, but I would think it's an Eldo block. Gilardonis..  You can go ahead and get er running, now. 

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

He mentioned that it had heads off a v1000.

Regarding the serial numbers, the frame and engine are indeed different:







Any clues?

Hoo boy, is that bitsa! Ambassador according to the VIN tag. Engine number is Eldo and would have had timing gears from the factory (chain didn't start until 58535). V1000 heads - just as I thought. Only real difference is headpipe mounting.

[LandyLou]

Hoo boy, is that bitsa!

As in "a bit a this and a bit a that?"  Thanks, as always!

Battery came in today, sourced some Rotella T4 locally, and got a shipping notice from MG. Should be able to get moving soon!

I was checking out the tank, there is a bit of rust in there, but not too bad. I was going to do the old vinegar and chain trick, unless anyone had a better plan...

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

As in "a bit a this and a bit a that?"  Thanks, as always!

Battery came in today, sourced some Rotella T4 locally, and got a shipping notice from MG. Should be able to get moving soon!

I was checking out the tank, there is a bit of rust in there, but not too bad. I was going to do the old vinegar and chain trick, unless anyone had a better plan...

Lance P. turned me on to "milkstone remover". Works better/quicker than anything I've tried previously.
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/dairyland-sterosol-milkstone-remover-acid-rinse?solr=1&cm_vc=-10005

How I use it:
Remove the petcocks and plug the holes. Pour the whole gallon into the tank, fill it the rest of the way with water. Depending on how bad the rust is and what the temperature is where you're doing it, it will take just a few hours to 24 hours. Drain and flush thoroughly with water, remove as much water as possible, then pour in a large bottle of 91% isopropyl alcohol, seal the tank and slosh that around. Drain and dry with exhaust from a vacuum cleaner, heat gun on low, etc.

The diluted milkstone remover can be used over (and over and over...). Wear protective gear!

[LandyLou]

Lance P. turned me on to "milkstone remover". Works better/quicker than anything I've tried previously.
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/dairyland-sterosol-milkstone-remover-acid-rinse?solr=1&cm_vc=-10005

Well, I've accumulated everything I need to get started, including the milkstone remover. My stuff from MG came in yesterday. I have Monday off, so I hope to have some actual work to share!

Thanks everyone, especially Charlie, for all the help so far!

-LL

[LandyLou]

Wow, what a year. Blew a gasket in Feb and pulled the engine out of the Kawi to fix it, the onset of - and virtual school for the kids, reinventing work from home, a wreck on the Kawi in the summer which left me with a broken ankle and, of course, more work on the Kawi. All that to say, didn't do as much work on the Eldo as I had hoped. Life happens, and is exactly the reason this thread got moved out of the projects category until it got underway 

Now that the Kawi is running smoothly again, I'm getting the Eldo on the bench. First up is the carb rebuild. I got the rebuild kits a year ago, but neglected to get new fuel inlet filters, so i need to get those. I have also noticed in the interim that there is no choke on this bike. I was reading some other threads about these flip top chokes, which seems like a good solution. (https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=62&products_id=666) Any opinions about those?

Here's to more progress this year than last year!

-LL

[Kiwi_Roy]

My Eldorado has two cables per carburetor, the flip tops should be good if they fit, I usually put the lever back as soon as it starts.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I have also noticed in the interim that there is no choke on this bike. I was reading some other threads about these flip top chokes, which seems like a good solution. (https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=62&products_id=666) Any opinions about those?

Tough year for you. Yes, those flip chokes will work as long as your carbs have the "counterbore" at the top to accommodate them. Eldo VHBs should have them. Since one is hidden behind the carb, I find them fiddly to use. However, you may not need to use them much if at all. When starting old Guzzis with VHBs, I just give the throttle two twists so the accelerator pumps dribble some fuel in the carb and then hit the starter button. Some of them will idle pretty much right away, others will want you there to hold their hand... er, I mean throttle, for a while. I only use the "choke" when absolutely necessary. Why? Because Guzzi used much too large choke jets - #80 when they should be #50s or #60s - and running it on "choke" dumps a lot of raw fuel into the cylinders.

[LandyLou]

Thanks for the quick replies, gentlemen 

My Eldorado has two cables per carburetor, the flip tops should be good if they fit, I usually put the lever back as soon as it starts.

No choke lever on the bars, and nothing attached to the cable aduster. I'd love to not mess with cables...

Tough year for you. Yes, those flip chokes will work as long as your carbs have the "counterbore" at the top to accommodate them. Eldo VHBs should have them. Since one is hidden behind the carb, I find them fiddly to use. However, you may not need to use them much if at all. When starting old Guzzis with VHBs, I just give the throttle two twists so the accelerator pumps dribble some fuel in the carb and then hit the starter button. Some of them will idle pretty much right away, others will want you there to hold their hand... er, I mean throttle, for a while. I only use the "choke" when absolutely necessary. Why? Because Guzzi used much too large choke jets - #80 when they should be #50s or #60s - and running it on "choke" dumps a lot of raw fuel into the cylinders.

Always a wealth of knowledge. Hmm, so maybe I could give it a go without them and see what happens... I wouldn't mind saving $30 bucks either ;)

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

On my V700, I used an early Tonti choke actuator. Nothing on the 'bars, but still easier to operate than individual levers.