Tubeless Conversion-- A Different Approach

[Kiwi_Roy]

When I first did my Eldorado I used the wrong silicon, I picked one from the bewildering array at the hardware store but the air would leak out the spoke threads after a few days, even so it was only a slow leak so I just pulled the tire off and tried again, I got quite good at removing tires. The silicon I used was hardly stuck to the aluminium so it was very easy to clean up.
Then I found the GE General Purpose Silicon in a small squeeze tube (enough to do 2 wheels) it was like night and day, I would air it up as soon as I could get the tire on
I will see if I can find the tube and post it, hate to put up the wrong one.
My multi motorcycle owning Glazer friend told me to use Urethane by Sika a Swiss product OR Primerless Dow Corning, that's what they use to hold the windscreen in cars, he said some silicones can be very corrosive, especially the ones that smell of vinegar

[bigbikerrick]

Thats interesting, the way Alpina seals the spoke nipples with 2 O rings. Is that the way the spokes on the  tubeless Griso wheels seal?
Rick.

[John Croucher]

Cleaning the spoke area is a multi step process.  I washed the rim and spokes with hot soapy water, rinsed, used air to blow oil out of nipples, washed again, rinsed again, blew more oil/lube out.  Washed again with VMP Naptha, blew more oil/lube out, washed again with denatured alcohol. 

I tried the 3M tape,  putting the tire on was difficult and disturbed the tape.  The rims leaked and I was concerned with centrifugal force pulling the tape off after a while. 

The 3M marine glue was a multi step process and took sever days.  I found that masking off the area outside of the area to be sealed helped.  Just make sure you remove the tape before the glue cures. 

Acetone was the secret to getting a smooth uniform finish.  The 3M adhesive is acetone base.  (at your own risk) I dipped my finger tip in the acetone and smoothed out the glue.  I used acetone and paper towel to clean up the edges. 

NAPA auto parts sell a valve stem that will fit the tube nipple hole without any modification.

The end results was very satisfactory.  The tires actually hold air better than a tube or other previous tubeless wheels I have owned. Cleaning up the rims of nicks and burrs before installing the tire helps for a better seal also. 

Considering the quality and durability of the 3M glue, I would suspect that it will remain in place and continue to seal longer than I will be alive.  Safe, dry, hidden from the sun and ozone inside the tire, it is very well protected from what ever life can throw at it.  As far as adjusting spokes, I have owned many spoke wheel motorcycles and bicycles.  They don't fall apart unless they have been abused pretty bad.  But anything is possible.   

[redhawk47]

moto-uno -- that rim photo was the first one I found on the web that was a good illustration of the safety bead. I know nothing else about it.

wire spokes -- bottom line from the industry: If the rim does not have the safety beads do not use it tubeless. No dealer would mount tires for you. It looks like the industry may be moving to safety beads on most/all rims. The V85TT has safety beads.

If you are converting to tubeless I suggest you consider right angle valve stems for the convenience. Available in lots of colors and for 11.3mm or 8.3mm diameter holes. Kurvy Girl has the best selection, Revzilla and others have them too.

Dan

[jpv7]

Good read here on this subject!   Im replacing my tires over the winter, and Ive been on the fence about doing this. I have a 02 California stone, and I plan to do some longer rides with it. I dont have a center stand, so flats on the road with tube tires could be a major issue.  I would never have a shop do it for me..  ill be doing it myself. I have used the 5200 sealant before in marine applications, and know what it can do, so Im really thinking that is the way Im going myself, but im still open to others ideas. Maybe this wicking thread locker works..But I dont know.. seems the slightest mess up in prep would cause a failure. Maybe its just I cant get past so little amount of product being able to seal..  Personally I would worry about it all the time but thats just how im wired. But really...  I think all of these ways will be fully able to work, and seal..  I think it just comes down to what YOU feel comfortable with

I was reading up on the 5200 product, and found the 4200.  It seems similar, but easier to remove in case of a damaged spoke.  Anyone have any experience with the 4200?

[dxhall]

I too would be concerned about the absence of safety beads on rims designed for tubed tires. 

Several years ago, I was messing around with a set of Lester mags on an old BMW.  The Lesters were designed for tubed tires, and don’t have retention beads. I was trying to find out if I could run the wheels without tubes.  I discovered that there’s a lot of strong opinions out there, and no consensus. 

Some claimed that anyone foolish enough to run Lesters without tubes would suffer a fatal crash when a tire shifted on the rim during hard braking and immediately lost all air.  Others claimed that they had run Lesters for years without tubes, with no problems.

I thought the tubeless riders’ experience might be due to the fact that the brakes on those old BMWs are so crappy that the brakes couldn’t generate enough force to slip the bead.  But what do I know?  I sold them.

There’s obviously a reason that rims intended for tubeless tires have the retention bead.  I said no to the silicone idea and purchased tubeless spoked wheels from a Bassa for my CalVin. 

[Moto Vita]

I too would be concerned about the absence of safety beads on rims designed for tubed tires. 

Several years ago, I was messing around with a set of Lester mags on an old BMW.  The Lesters were designed for tubed tires, and don’t have retention beads. I was trying to find out if I could run the wheels without tubes.  I discovered that there’s a lot of strong opinions out there, and no consensus. 

 If you consult anyone involved in the tire/wheel industry you will find a very clear consensus.

[dxhall]

I don’t think anyone who messes around with old Lester mags and old BMWs would be in the tire/wheel industry.  Having been a BMW owner for a time, though, I can say that many BMW owners are persons of deep understanding and subtle discernment.  Or think they are.

[blu guzz]

i had a 1984 airhead with the snow flake wheels.  i always used the tubes.  i had a good riding friend with a 1982 RT with snow flake wheels, he never used tubes.  he thought i was wasting money.

[wirespokes]

So explain to me how having a tube will prevent the tire from shifting under hard braking.

I've never had a tire shift, tube or tubeless.

Of course tire professionals will tell you not to run tubeless in a tube type. Insurance and lawsuits are the reason. Not that it's unsafe, but you know how it is - spill hot coffee in your lap and you can sue the pants off the vendor. Crash, blame it on the guy who put your tires together without tubes.

Burt Munroe never would have broken any records thinking like that. And maybe that's why his records still stand - he could think outside the box when everyone else was being careful to not do anything wrong. Hell, he even carved the tread off his tires to make them high speed slicks. I doubt any tire professionals would endorse that.

It's hard to think with something when you don't have all the data, or think you don't. And something like this takes a bit of a leap, or a friend who's done it. There are guys who run their dirt and street bikes all tubeless, and have for ten or twenty years. I think if you're worried about it, you shouldn't do it. Best get a set of wheels or a bike designed from the start for tubeless.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Well said Wirespokes
I remember some British bikes had a security bolt, I think it jambes a wedge between the side-walls, I never had a bike with them fitted.
None of the bikes I had would pull the skin off a rice pudding.

[s1120]

Well good news on my front.. It seems like the rims on my 02 California has the safety bead...  Though like some, I cant see rapid deflation with a tube, or a deflating tubeless slipping a bead are any different..

[Moto Vita]

Well good news on my front.. It seems like the rims on my 02 California has the safety bead...  Though like some, I cant see rapid deflation with a tube, or a deflating tubeless slipping a bead are any different..

 It can be easily demonstrated, let the air out of a tubeless wheel and a tube type wheel and go for a low speed ride on each. See which tire stays on the rim.

[SIR REAL ED]

Well said Wirespokes
I remember some British bikes had a security bolt, I think it jambes a wedge between the side-walls, I never had a bike with them fitted.
None of the bikes I had would pull the skin off a rice pudding.

The wedges of which you speak are called rimlocks on this side of the pond.  Generally found on dirt bikes so one can run very low tire pressure to increase traction.  I can't remember the last time I saw any on a street bike.  Tubeless tires grip the rim so well, you won't see rimlocks on tubeless tires.  IIRC the trials bikes I've owned have had rimlocks on the front tire because it is tube type, but none on the rear tire because it is tubeless.  Trials bikes generally run about 5-6 psi in the front and 4-5 psi in the rear.

[SIR REAL ED]

It can be easily demonstrated, let the air out of a tubeless wheel and a tube type wheel and go for a low speed ride on each. See which tire stays on the rim.

sounds like a plan. 

"Hey, can I borrow a couple of your bikes.... and a helmet for a while?  Should be back in a hour or less....."   

[dxhall]

I don’t have any direct experience with tubeless-tire-on-tubed-rim failure.  My point was only that (i) there’s disagreement about this; (ii) there’s a reason the retention beads are there; and (iii) I don’t want to be the guy who is offered as proof that the doomsayers were right.

[redhawk47]

A thought on the wicking Loctite sealing method: If you hit a pothole hard (tire hits the rim) you could break the nipple/rim seal and have a slow leak.

Dan

[SIR REAL ED]

couple more:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA2upKfcA9w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPG8buNvTCc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lniuSPDtDgM

https://cyb.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/KTM/Tubeless/i-BjwM3St

It seems to me the biggest difference between the OUTEX and how a lot of people are doing it is a layer of protective tape over the sealing tape.  Seems like a good idea to me.  If I do it, I will probably add a layer of Gorilla tape over the sealing tape.

[wirespokes]

It can be easily demonstrated, let the air out of a tubeless wheel and a tube type wheel and go for a low speed ride on each. See which tire stays on the rim.

We have no argument with that. None at all. We all agree the safetybead is a very good thing and superior to a non-safetybead rim. The only downside of the safety bead being difficulty getting the bead to seat.

The question being debated is whether it's safe to run a tire without a tube on a non-safetybead rim.

[Kiwi_Roy]

We have no argument with that. None at all. We all agree the safetybead is a very good thing and superior to a non-safetybead rim. The only downside of the safety bead being difficulty getting the bead to seat.
The question being debated is whether it's safe to run a tire without a tube on a non-safetybead rim.

Given that either type can go flat it could be argued that we should not run without a safety bead rim full stop!
Which type is more likely to go flat suddenly?
Perhaps review Figure 4 in this post by Redhawk47 before you answer that.
https://bestrestproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Tube-Tires-VS-Tubeless-Tires.pdf
So given that, do we know if the V7iii spoked rims have a safety bead?
I fully intend to convert my V7iii Special to tubeless as soon as it needs new rubber, bead or not, I just can't see myself repairing a tube alongside the road somewhere next summer.
 

[Moto Vita]

We have no argument with that. None at all. We all agree the safetybead is a very good thing and superior to a non-safetybead rim. The only downside of the safety bead being difficulty getting the bead to seat.

The question being debated is whether it's safe to run a tire without a tube on a non-safetybead rim.

 It's much less safe, it's safe to say.

[SIR REAL ED]

It's much less safe, it's safe to say.

If I think back to the conventional wisdom I've heard.  Tubeless tires are supposedly safer that tube type, the reason often given is tube type tires tend to deflate faster than tubeless tires.  Maybe, maybe not.  Depends upon what type of damage causes the tire to deflate. 

I suspect the real reason tubeless tires are considered safer than tube type tires is that tubeless rims have 2 safety beads to hold the tire against the side of the rim.  I suspect that tubeless tires are safer than tube type tires because while the tire is losing air, the tubeless tire maintains the cross section shape of an inflated tire for a longer period of time because of the safety beads.  Therefore from the perspective of the rider, it "feels like the tire is losing air less quickly."

Perhaps that is the reason they (supposedly) lose air slower than the tube type tire. 

So it is safer to run a tubeless tire on a tubeless rim, than to run a tubeless tire on a tube type rim?  Of course, the tubeless rim has safety beads that the tube type rim does not have. 

Is it less safe to run tubeless tire on a tube type rim, than to run a tube type tire on a tube type rim?  I doubt it.  I would argue because of the lack of safety ridges on the tube type rim, the risk level is the same with either type of tire.

[wirespokes]

Nice link, Roy! 

It's a long read, though. But very good. You guys, Ed and Vita, should read it and then get back to us.

Ed - no, tubeless isn't safer because of safety beads or some placebo effect. 

They're safer because the tire tends to seal up the entry point, and since that's the only place for air to escape, it leaves very slowly if at all. With a tube, the bladder POPS or quickly deflates and the air exits the spoke holes or valve stem hole. it's a much more rapid deflate.

As already mentioned, the issue isn't whether safety beads are good or not. They definitely are. No argument there what-so-ever.

The argument is whether to run a tube type rim tubeless. In the article Roy posted, the only possible negative point against running tubeless was with the front rim. It's possible under hard cornering to break the bead loose if running tubeless without a safety bead. Not sure if that's ever happened, but the pros are concerned that's a possibility. I've run BMW snowflake rims, front and back, tubeless without anything like that every happening. Even though I've got minimal chicken strips I wouldn't call my cornering style aggressive. You'd have to really man-handle the thing to break the bead loose in a turn.

You're telling us that because the pros say not to, that, for some reason or other (that you're trying to guess) it's not safe. As another example, consider this: remember back in the 70s or 80s when european halogen headlights were so much better than our ancient sealed beams, but the only way to get them was from the display at the auto parts store that said "for off road use only!"? They were illegal because they weren't sealed up per law. How stupid was that? And following through - I wonder how many guys wondered what was wrong with halogen lights because they were illegal?

It's true you'll probably have to install your own tires if going this route, in which case there's no argument if that's not your thing. You wouldn't be converting anyway.

But just in case, or you want to debate this farther, do read that article! It'll give you a lot more data to think with. Here, I'll link it again:

https://bestrestproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Tube-Tires-VS-Tubeless-Tires.pdf

[Moto Vita]

Nice link, Roy! 

It's a long read, though. But very good. You guys, Ed and Vita, should read it and then get back to us.

Ed - no, tubeless isn't safer because of safety beads or some placebo effect. 

They're safer because the tire tends to seal up the entry point, and since that's the only place for air to escape, it leaves very slowly if at all. With a tube, the bladder POPS or quickly deflates and the air exits the spoke holes or valve stem hole. it's a much more rapid deflate.

As already mentioned, the issue isn't whether safety beads are good or not. They definitely are. No argument there what-so-ever.

The argument is whether to run a tube type rim tubeless. In the article Roy posted, the only possible negative point against running tubeless was with the front rim. It's possible under hard cornering to break the bead loose if running tubeless without a safety bead. Not sure if that's ever happened, but the pros are concerned that's a possibility. I've run BMW snowflake rims, front and back, tubeless without anything like that every happening. Even though I've got minimal chicken strips I wouldn't call my cornering style aggressive. You'd have to really man-handle the thing to break the bead loose in a turn.

You're telling us that because the pros say not to, that, for some reason or other (that you're trying to guess) it's not safe. As another example, consider this: remember back in the 70s or 80s when european halogen headlights were so much better than our ancient sealed beams, but the only way to get them was from the display at the auto parts store that said "for off road use only!"? They were illegal because they weren't sealed up per law. How stupid was that? And following through - I wonder how many guys wondered what was wrong with halogen lights because they were illegal?

It's true you'll probably have to install your own tires if going this route, in which case there's no argument if that's not your thing. You wouldn't be converting anyway.

But just in case, or you want to debate this farther, do read that article! It'll give you a lot more data to think with. Here, I'll link it again:

https://bestrestproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Tube-Tires-VS-Tubeless-Tires.pdf

 The issue with running tube type rims tubeless is the "burp", when a tire deforms enough (usually at low pressure) to lose some or all (usually all) pressure suddenly.

[mtiberio]

Poll:
vote 1 if you have ever had a flat with a tube and/or found a nail in a tubeless tire, but the tire still held air.
vote 2 if you have ever had a tubeless tire pop off a tube type rim while at speed (or even while stopped for that matter).

Let me guess, 1000 #1 votes, zero #2 votes.

[Mike Craven]

It can be easily demonstrated, let the air out of a tubeless wheel and a tube type wheel and go for a low speed ride on each. See which tire stays on the rim.

Moto and others kinda hit the issue.  There are three conditions to test for:  transient, steady state and fault.  So something that works well at steady state won't tell you how it will act in a fault condition.  Actually it's conditionS.   I wouldn't trust many motorcyclists to never run under inflated.

[SIR REAL ED]

Nice link, Roy! 

It's a long read, though. But very good. You guys, Ed and Vita, should read it and then get back to us.

Ed - no, tubeless isn't safer because of safety beads or some placebo effect. 

They're safer because the tire tends to seal up the entry point, and since that's the only place for air to escape, it leaves very slowly if at all. With a tube, the bladder POPS or quickly deflates and the air exits the spoke holes or valve stem hole. it's a much more rapid deflate.

As already mentioned, the issue isn't whether safety beads are good or not. They definitely are. No argument there what-so-ever.

The argument is whether to run a tube type rim tubeless. In the article Roy posted, the only possible negative point against running tubeless was with the front rim. It's possible under hard cornering to break the bead loose if running tubeless without a safety bead. Not sure if that's ever happened, but the pros are concerned that's a possibility. I've run BMW snowflake rims, front and back, tubeless without anything like that every happening. Even though I've got minimal chicken strips I wouldn't call my cornering style aggressive. You'd have to really man-handle the thing to break the bead loose in a turn.

You're telling us that because the pros say not to, that, for some reason or other (that you're trying to guess) it's not safe. As another example, consider this: remember back in the 70s or 80s when european halogen headlights were so much better than our ancient sealed beams, but the only way to get them was from the display at the auto parts store that said "for off road use only!"? They were illegal because they weren't sealed up per law. How stupid was that? And following through - I wonder how many guys wondered what was wrong with halogen lights because they were illegal?

It's true you'll probably have to install your own tires if going this route, in which case there's no argument if that's not your thing. You wouldn't be converting anyway.

But just in case, or you want to debate this farther, do read that article! It'll give you a lot more data to think with. Here, I'll link it again:

https://bestrestproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Tube-Tires-VS-Tubeless-Tires.pdf

Good point.  I agree.. so obvious.... I forgot about that.  I'm claiming a senior moment.  CRS, ya know.   

Freedie Spencer or Kenny Roberts might be able to break the bead on a tubeless tire on a tube type rim on the track, but for a human rider on the street, I doubt it is an issue to worry about.

I've only seen two instances of tubeless bead breaking loose.  The first involved alcohol, and my buddy driving too fast to make a turn, hit the curb and blowout three tires on his truck.

The second was a buddy who unintentionally pulled a wheelie on his trials bike, got too high, stepped off the back, the bike falls to the side, down a 10' drop off into the creek.  Bizarrely enough, it broke the bead on the tubeless rear tire.  Never seen anything like it.  Due to light weight, trials bike crash well with usually no damage.

[rjamesohio]

WOW, we are not lacking details in this discussion. Nor should we.

But - I've had tire problems on the road with tube tires, and somehow got through them and got home.

I definitely would PREFER tubeless tires,  have them on my BMW, and hope to have them on a cafe Guzzi that's in the works. But I probably will not convert my Cali 1100i to tubeless simply because the tradeoff for me is to work through the issues IF you ever have a problem on the road with your tube tires OR spend time and $$$$ converting in the small likelihood that you MIGHT have a problem on the road.

Life is a series of choices.

[rocker59]

Point of reference, friends.  All DOT approved motorcycle wheels over the past couple decades have the beads on the rims.  Cast or spoked.

Sure, if you're talking about your old 1970s Guzzi, the wire wheels do not have the safety bead and really shouldn't be run tubeless.

If the wheel is stamped DOT MC, it's going to have the beads.

[John Warner]

All I'll say here is that the Alpina Rims (as used on the NTX Stelvio), in my opinion, are one of the dumbest design ideas I've ever seen on a Bike in 41+ years of messing with them.
'On paper', fine, it's an OK idea, but the second they leave the Production line they'll be slowly deteriorating.
You can't realistically 'maintain' the O-Rings to keep them in good condition, unless you want to strip them apart every year or so.

As for sealing the Rims, and still being able to adjust the Spokes, you could paint the inner Nipple end with a dry-film mould-release before sealing.
That would stop the Sealant adhering to the Nipple, but wouldn't affect the sealing.