Place your bets..

[Chuck in Indiana]

Well, looky here from the Previous Owner's maintenance logs..
9-30-13 88027
Rebuilt transmission with all new bearings and seals.
New clutch
New rear main seal.
Fly wheel.

He installed a new flywheel 12000 miles ago, and was having the problem *before* I bought it.
If there is any more proof that Sureflex plates are to be avoided like the plague, I don't know what it would be.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Well, looky here from the Previous Owner's maintenance logs..
9-30-13 88027
Rebuilt transmission with all new bearings and seals.
New clutch
New rear main seal.
Fly wheel.

He installed a new flywheel 12000 miles ago, and was having the problem *before* I bought it.
If there is any more proof that Sureflex plates are to be avoided like the plague, I don't know what it would be.

 

[Groover]

I think Sureflex does OK for their wet clutches because of the friction modifiers in the wet clutch type oils, but sounds like best to stay away from their dry clutches!

Thanks again for the updates on this, and great score having a previous "log" that came with your bike!

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I think Sureflex does OK for their wet clutches because of the friction modifiers in the wet clutch type oils, but sounds like best to stay away from their dry clutches!

Thanks again for the updates on this, and great score having a previous "log" that came with your bike!

They're the o.e. supplier for Morini clutches (which are dry) and those for the most part work well. Their Guzzi clutch discs have never been a good choice though.

[Groover]

I'm probably going to sound like a broken record I'm probably going to sound like a broken record, but I do really think it has a lot to do with the leverage relations on how much of the pressure is released at certain points. Long story to get into based on how much I've been thinking about this enough to consider it a mental waste of my brain's time now..  , but Sureflex, certainly need to go back to the R&D table on that that one taking more of the Guzzi clutch-related components into consideration if they want this to be a good street/everyday type clutch solution.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I think Sureflex does OK for their wet clutches because of the friction modifiers in the wet clutch type oils, but sounds like best to stay away from their dry clutches!

Thanks again for the updates on this, and great score having a previous "log" that came with your bike!

The Previous Owner is a respected Guzzi Guy, and I knew it would have been maintained properly. That's why I had no problem paying what he asked for it. I'd have given more, but don't tell him..
I had to negotiate with Fotoguzzi on that flywheel, though. He was asking less than it is worth. 

[John A]

That one may need to be checked for transmission to engine alignment if it is having flywheel and clutch troubles on a regular basis.  Just a maybe,  but now would be a good time to check if there is a question about it

[Kiwi Dave]

That one may need to be checked for transmission to engine alignment if it is having flywheel and clutch troubles on a regular basis.  Just a maybe,  but now would be a good time to check if there is a question about it

Exactly what I was saying in post #3 of this thread.  Especially the gearbox (transmission?) input bearing.  My clutch was replaced and the input oil seal by Pro Italia, but they didn't think to check the input bearing.  The new clutch didn't last very long until it shat itself, and to their credit, Pro Italia picked the bike from the side of the road and fix it properly the second time.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Not a bad idea to check it while it's apart. http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_alignment.html

However, my '71 Ambassador had similar issues to Chuck's G5 and was in perfect alignment. Some dummy (me) installed Sureflex plates and after only 14k miles the clutch hub was trashed, but the flywheel was still good.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I really doubt misalignment is the problem. After all, it has over 100,000 miles. I guess it would be easy enough to check while I'm waiting for parts and cleaning/fixing etc. If anyone's interested, I'll document it.

[John A]

Everybody wants to see some of that good visual progress and sure do appreciate it when you post it, we understand how much extra it is to add that to a job.   edit: best regards for the family too,  I know you’ll get back to it when you can

[Chuck in Indiana]

The new/old flywheel from Fotoguzzi arrived today.  It's for a 98 EV and doesn't have timing marks, but I can Shirley figure out how to do that.. when I get back to it.

[Groover]

Are the weights the same between the old and the new flywheels? Just wondering if they made any changes between model/years.

[chuck peterson]

Are you done yet?..   

Are you done yet?..

Are you done yet?..

Are you done yet?..

Are you done yet?..

Are you done yet?..

Are you done yet?..

Are you done yet?..

Are you done yet?..

[Chuck in Indiana]

^^^^  I'll see if I can make some measurable progress today. I'm *assuming* the EV and G5 flywheel balance the same. <scratching head> I'll need to make up a piston stop so I can get an accurate starting point.

[John A]

Long as you have the flywheel off are you going to seal the cam plug?   I was heating one up with a heat gun to help get the oil to migrate away and was surprised that the plug was loose when the block was warm.  It had not seemed loose at all when cool but sure made a believer out of me...

[Chuck in Indiana]

Long as you have the flywheel off are you going to seal the cam plug?   I was heating one up with a heat gun to help get the oil to migrate away and was surprised that the plug was loose when the block was warm.  It had not seemed loose at all when cool but sure made a believer out of me...

I *think* Tim took care of this kind of stuff. I'll look into it, though.. thanks for the reminder.

[John Croucher]

^^^^  I'll see if I can make some measurable progress today. I'm *assuming* the EV and G5 flywheel balance the same. <scratching head> I'll need to make up a piston stop so I can get an accurate starting point.

I used one of these as part of a piston stop/gauge.   A spark plug anti fouler.  Put in head, put screw inside, mounted dial indicator and placed tip of indicator on the head of screw to see when the up movement stopped.  Don't want a solid stop that will gouge the top of the piston.  I rounded the tip of the screw off and smoothed it up. 

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81pG2i6PPrL._SL1493_.jpg

[Chuck in Indiana]

I'd forgotten how hard it is to destroy a spark plug.  At any rate, made a piston stop. My arthritic hands wouldn't open my silver solder flux jar  so I got out my big hunker soldering iron and soft soldered it.

Needless to say, I was *very* careful bringing the piston up to touch it..    but thanks for the tip, John.
I'd made this degree wheel thingy (technical term) out of stuff I had laying around when I did the Aero engine, so adapted it for this job.

Luigi strikes again. The S mark is about 2 degrees retarded.

Went through the whole procedure again to make sure *I* wasn't being Luigi..  but came up with the same thing.
Slid the transmission back over the dowels, and had a look to be sure.

Ok, let's see what the new flywheel looks like. Didn't take a picture.. the line is apparently laser engraved very lightly, but I was looking right at the S.
Close enough, and enough for today.
Tomorrow, I'll mark the initial timing and full advance for both cylinders, and bolt it up with any luck at all.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Ok, back at it. SIL is coming home today.. not that it's a particularly good thing. 
In case this is worth anything.. the EV flywheel doesn't have the initial timing and full advance marks, so we need a way to put them on it.
See that piece of thin sheet metal laying on the vise anvil? It is 2.608" long. Put the edge in the center of the scribed TDC mark, hold it down on the periphery, and scribe the full advance mark of 33 degrees. Of course, this will work on the old flywheel if you have accurately located TDC on it.

Sorry for the out of focus stuff, my cheapy cell fone camera doesn't have enough depth of field. You'll have to imagine the freshly stamped D, the center punch mark at 2 degrees, and the full advance mark cut with a dremel and 1/32" abrasive disc. Of course, this brings up the old adage, "measure with micrometers, cut with an axe."    At least, now you know what the dimension is thanks to cad. No thinking. No trig. My kind of job. 

John A sez:

Long as you have the flywheel off are you going to seal the cam plug?   I was heating one up with a heat gun to help get the oil to migrate away and was surprised that the plug was loose when the block was warm.  It had not seemed loose at all when cool but sure made a believer out of me...

Crap. It's not *leaking* but it's weeping a little.

**caution** The lower part of the cam plug is behind the main bearing carrier. I wonder if some of the problems I've read of removing the bearing carrier were caused by someone JB welding it to the case? 
It really should be removed for this job, but I'm not going to do it. I've gone in with solvent, a wire brush on my dremel, more solvent, and air. After lunch, I'll very carefully mask off the bearing carrier and JB weld that cam plug.

[Chuck in Indiana]

JB welded the cam plug. I see a small area that I didn't quite get once it's blown up in the picture..

In case some have wondered what that arrow on the flywheel is when you are checking timing.. it lines up with the tit on the casting when the piston is at TDC.

Flywheel installed with new bolts (they're cheap)torqued to 30 ft.lbs. loc tite and plain washers. No shnoor washers?? My preference. shnoor washers are hardened, and I've seen broken ones. A broken lock washer isn't a lock washer any more. <shrug>

A question for those more experienced than me..there is a dot on the pressure plate, but I can't find any matching dots on either the EV or original G5 flywheel for it to match. Seen here 90 degrees from vertical.

 I *assume* as long as the spring wells line up, it doesn't matter where it goes? The shop manual glosses over it.
Anything special to do to the swept surfaces before assembly with the new clutch plates?

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Usually there's a faint line visible on the face of the flywheel that extends from the arrow to a spline. You can draw you own or just imagine it's there. Like you say, as long as all of the spring drop into their pockets and aren't cocked at an angle, you'll be good to go.

On the friction faces of the pressure plate and flywheel, I "break the glaze" using a Scotchbrite disc in my air angle die grinder.

[jacksonracingcomau]

Not photo of year but you can just about see where arrow you showed before lines up with centre of spring pocket
This is where you line up dot on pressure plate, ie assembly point
Previous owner had marked p on this one for pressure plate, along with s and d painted lines, he was obviously onto it



I’m betting plates were more issue than flywheel but should be perfect now, I would have bought alloy flywheel if spending $, makes gear changes and engine braking a whole new world, don’t think I could deal with boat anchor flywheel again myself but others love em. Riding style I guess

[John A]

I think the dot on the pressure plate is to line up the spring pockets and is adjacent to that nub (technical term) on the   bellhousing interior for the left cylinder when the flywheel is set at tdc for the left cylinder for installation .  There should also be an arrow on the rim of the flywheel that also lines up to that nub when the flywheel is indexed to that white paint mark on the crank.  I’ll check the books when I get to the shop to verify it but it really doesn’t matter,  just want it to be correct.  Ever wonder why the cylinders are marked #2 on the left and #1 on the right?  Normal marking is usually from left to right or as in our case it’s fore to aft which is equally industry standard

[Chuck in Indiana]

Not photo of year but you can just about see where arrow you showed before lines up with centre of spring pocket
This is where you line up dot on pressure plate, ie assembly point
Previous owner had marked p on this one for pressure plate, along with s and d painted lines, he was obviously onto it



I’m betting plates were more issue than flywheel but should be perfect now, I would have bought alloy flywheel if spending $, makes gear changes and engine braking a whole new world, don’t think I could deal with boat anchor flywheel again myself but others love em. Riding style I guess

I could have done it for free.  Sort of. I lightened a flywheel assembly for the Kids cafe project a few years ago, and he has never used it. I just *assumed* a lightened flywheel wouldn't be the thing to do to a pack mule..

[Groover]

I could have done it for free.  Sort of. I lightened a flywheel assembly for the Kids cafe project a few years ago, and he has never used it. I just *assumed* a lightened flywheel wouldn't be the thing to do to a pack mule..

That's a masterpiece, nice work!

[Chuck in Indiana]

<Elvis/1> Thankya thankya <Elvis0> 

[Muzz]

I could have done it for free.  Sort of. I lightened a flywheel assembly for the Kids cafe project a few years ago, and he has never used it. I just *assumed* a lightened flywheel wouldn't be the thing to do to a pack mule..

Wow, that is a neat looking job Chuck.

At the end of the day, "pack mule" = a bit of weight in the fly wheel.  I don't think your modified one qualifies.

[jacksonracingcomau]

I’ve done it to quite a few otherwise std bikes, all could never go back
Yours looks good, similar to what I bought from Ago in early 80’s and had put onto cad program in uk then again here in oz in 90’s, one of very first still in my 992 roundie.
But lost the man with the mill and have an alloy one in the 1100, for anyone without mill or access to one, these are the go, not single plater but replica of orig.
Either way it’s a huge benefit IMHO

[Chuck in Indiana]

Our ISP has been disabled from a lightning strike, then ice, so no pix.. I'd forgotten what dial up speeds are like. At any rate, I had an afternoon pass, so got right after it. I need to get the borrowed tools that I've made back to Andy..
Clutch installed, new bolts and loc tite. If I had forgotten to install the cup in the center until I had the bike back together.. I'd have been the first one. 

Putting on my mold maker's hat, I grabbed a long 1/4" ejector pin and pushed the clutch pushrod back.

The Previous Owner had put O rings on the pushrod, but I only found 4. Charlie kindly had sent me 6, so I used them. Also shown is the dual o ring pushrod actuator that I understand is a good thing to have with the new thicker clutch plates.

Quicky tool to hold the transmission input gear for removal/installation. Use a rattle gun, or you will destroy the tool that removes the Weird Harold nut.

A little dab of Synthetic  grease..

And offer up the transmission to the engine. Naturally, the splines won't engage, so keep a little pressure forward on the transmission, put a pry bar in the starter ring gear, use the stud as a fulcrum, and slowly turn the flywheel. Nothing to it.

After that, it's just nuts and bolts..

3 1/2 hours for clutch install to swing arm installation.Not quite as fast as taking it all apart, but nothing to be afraid of.  One tip I can give is to *not* tighten all the frame bolts.. just tighten them enough that each joint can move.. until the swing arm is installed. Then..torque all the frame bolts, then adjust the swing arm to center. I should finish it up this morning. It looks like 7 1/2 to 8 hours total for this job. I hope there was something helpful in this thread.