rear tyre change,and final drive spline

[shai385]

hi all
read a lot about the connection between rear wheel tyre change and grease the final drive spline
wanted to ask if it is a must to take the final drive off the bike, ,in order to lub  the spline?
my v7 iii had done 16500 km ,so should i remove ,and lub the final drive?which greas?
i am not even sure that guzzi mechanic  knows it must be done because it is not in there factory work  list
some people say that water can enter the final drive,and swing arm,it is a bit stressing i must say,it is a new bike a v7iii.
how much more work will it take to lub, assuming the mechanic will take the rear wheel off,to change the tyre?
by the way i have a syntetic oil in the final drive,it doest leak ,but i hope it wont ruin the oil seals and rubbers
inside what are your thought?thanks i will really appreciate your answers

[sign216]

Shai,

It's good to lube the splines occasionally.  I do it at every tire change, since the rear wheel is already off.  I wrote a tutorial on it for the first version of the V7:  https://www.flickr.com/photos/sign216/albums/72157625569987011     (double click on the photos to get the text)

Joe

[Wayne Orwig]

I suspect others will have other opinions, after all this is sort of a dreaded 'oil' thread..... 

On my Tonti framed bikes, I have had a LOT of issues with the splines INSIDE the swingarm, rusting and wearing. The splines on the rear wheel never showed any wear because I would keep them gooped up at every tire change. Those spline inside the rear swingarm did not get as much attention, and suffered. Over the years, I tried various concoctions that did not stay in place. Again, I mainly wanted to coat them to prevent rust (and wear from dry rusty metal). I eventually ended up using Lucas Red and Tacky. I tends to stay in place. But a couple of years back a friend gave my this tube of no named industrial goo that I now use. It is some serious sticky goo that stays in place. MG Cycle sells something made by (I believe) Wurth that is supposed to be sticky and stay in place.
And no, I have no clue how the moisture would get in the swingarm, but basically, the grease I used to use would fling off and disappear, and the moisture would rust the splines badly.

Sorry, not sure if any of this applies to the V7, but from what I have seen I would want to go in there and check.

[malik]

Once the wheel is off, it's very easy, just 4 dome nuts (with 2 washers each). You'll need to use an open end (13mm) spanner - sockets don't fit. DO support the swingarm when you're taking it off - you don't want it dropping fast & breaking/bending the gear linkage rod with one of its corners.

Any grease is fine, what they normally use will do. The manuals are fond of a high temp, waterproof, bearing grease, and there is some good, really sticky stuff out there. Whatever you use, you'll be checking how well it's holding up in, say, 20,000km. Grease the spline coming out of the final drive, the spline at the end of the drive shaft (don't lose the spring) and the insides & outsides of the splined collar. Water can get in, likely past the boot at the front of the swingarm, and collect around the splines you just greased.

It should add only about 15 minutes to the tyre job, and multiples of that can be lost just trying to keep the Cush rubbers in to get the wheel back on.

Drain that synthetic oil from the final drive, replace with an 85/140 MINERAL oil. I use some 20mm of Nulon G70, now called Smooth Shift, to thicken up the mixture a little. The molybdenum additive often used on the big blocks should do the same thing. The weeping of oil through or past the large seal will reduce immediately, and after a few oil changes will go away - the seal seems to recover all by itself. In the meantime, just clean the unsightly leaks off with degreaser or truck wash each time you wash the bike.

I've had water inside the final drive perhaps once in 340,000km. I wouldn't worry about that until it happens. Just clean out the breather cap each time you change the oil, and pile the miles on.

[moto-uno]

  Have the mechanic grease the splines , mine ( and many others I suspect ) have found close to no grease from the factory on any splined surfaces !
As was mentioned above , grease it and enjoy it 'til your next tire change .  Peter

[usedtobefast]

It sounds like you have a mechanic/shop that is going to do the work (vs you doing it)?

One tricky thing, "splines" refers to any teeth-to-teeth meshing in the drive line.  So if you ask your mechanic to "lube the splines" the mechanic might just put the grease on the splines/teeth you see with the wheel off. 

If you want the full drive shaft lube done (every splined connection rear of the gearbox), just make sure the mechanic understands what you are after.  I wouldn't be surprised if they put that at 1 hour of work.

[shai385]

It sounds like you have a mechanic/shop that is going to do the work (vs you doing it)?

One tricky thing, "splines" refers to any teeth-to-teeth meshing in the drive line.  So if you ask your mechanic to "lube the splines" the mechanic might just put the grease on the splines/teeth you see with the wheel off. 

If you want the full drive shaft lube done (every splined connection rear of the gearbox), just make sure the mechanic understands what you are after.  I wouldn't be surprised if they put that at 1 hour of work.

i am not sure he knows what does it means a full drive shaft lube what else he has to do?,does it means more parts taking apart?is it possible to spray grease inside the drive shaft without taking the swin arm apart?

[Kiwi_Roy]

i am not sure he knows what does it means a full drive shaft lube what else he has to do?,does it means more parts taking apart?is it possible to spray grease inside the drive shaft without taking the swin arm apart?

No, it needs to be pulled apart, you will find virtually no grease in there, mine at 15,000 km had quite a lot of water inside the drive tunnel.
There's another set of splines at the gearbox end, I found this in better shape but you need to remove the swing-arm to get at it, not a big job in fact I plan to remove mine again tomorrow to seal the boot properly.
I would worry about leaving that task to a non Guzzi shop, a ham fisted mechanic could end up snapping the lugs off the gearbox, the pins just need to be nipped up

Shai,

It's good to lube the splines occasionally.  I do it at every tire change, since the rear wheel is already off.  I wrote a tutorial on it for the first version of the V7:  https://www.flickr.com/photos/sign216/albums/72157625569987011     (double click on the photos to get the text)

Joe

If you look at sign216's photo SDC10028 you can see his had a small amount of water in the tunnel by the rust mark

There's another related thread going at the moment
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=107447.0
I took note of what SmithSwede had to say about a leaky boot

[sign216]

If you look at sign216's photo SDC10028 you can see his had a small amount of water in the tunnel by the rust mark

Wow, I never noticed that in my own photo.  I don't recall finding significant water, but the rust mark tells the tale.  Bike is stored inside, and I avoid the rain, so that must help.

Joe

P.S. Today I was chastised on   https://groups.io/g/Moto-Guzzi-750 for my photo album on V7 Air Filter Removal.  A man thought my taste was inappropriate. 

[Roebling3]

Dare you ask from where he cometh? Might he still suck his thumb?  R3~

[malik]

I quite like your assistant(s), Joe. I wish I had one of those. I've always found working on Guzzis to be easier if there's someone else there. You keep it up Joe.

[sign216]

I quite like your assistant(s), Joe. I wish I had one of those. I've always found working on Guzzis to be easier if there's someone else there. You keep it up Joe.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.  Some forms of beauty are immortal, from the biblical era, to now. 

[SmithSwede]

Pull it.  Grease it. 

Knuckle down.  Buckle down.  Do it.  Do it.  Do it.

[shai385]

No, it needs to be pulled apart, you will find virtually no grease in there, mine at 15,000 km had quite a lot of water inside the drive tunnel.
There's another set of splines at the gearbox end, I found this in better shape but you need to remove the swing-arm to get at it, not a big job in fact I plan to remove mine again tomorrow to seal the boot properly.
I would worry about leaving that task to a non Guzzi shop, a ham fisted mechanic could end up snapping the lugs off the gearbox, the pins just need to be nipped up
If you look at sign216's photo SDC10028 you can see his had a small amount of water in the tunnel by the rust mark
ok,seal the rubber boot,but with what?do you have a name of a good product? is it a one time job?i am still shocked that the company that makes this bikes since 1967 havnt found a solution, i am sure they are aware.and till now i didnt know i even may have a problem,because guzzi israel ignore this issue  completely,no need to lube ,no water going in

[shai385]

ok,seal the rubber boot,but with what?do you have a name of a good product? is it a one time job?i am still shocked that the company that makes this bikes since 1967 havnt found a solution, i am sure they are aware.and till now i didnt know i even may have a problem,because guzzi israel ignore this issue  completely,no need to lube ,no water going in

[SmithSwede]

Yes, pretty much a one time job.   I just used some silicon style sealant.  I’m sure any automotive or marine grade sealant would work fine.  This isn’t anything fancy—we are just sealing a rubber boot that doesn’t move that much and isn’t in a hostile environment.   Just outdoors

[shai385]

do you think BMW has the same problems,with the rear end ?water inside the swing arm?

[chrisfer]

do you think BMW has the same problems,with the rear end ?water inside the swing arm?

Do you think there is BMW with rear end splines at this price ?

This is not a real problem, in this place we just talk about an improvment, the better care.

Changing the rear oil every year is surely enough and take a look at the spline every time you change the rear tire is fine (even on a BMW).

[usedtobefast]

I'm still a bit confused ... are you planning to do this work yourself?  Or are you trying to understand it well enough to make sure your mechanic does a good job?

If your mechanic doesn't know how to lube a Moto Guzzi drive shaft, I would not take my bike there for work. 

If it were me, and I was doing it myself
... if I never (or rarely) rode in the rain, I would just change out the tire, look at the grease on those spines you see, add some grease if needed, drain the final drive oil and if it comes out looking fine, then refill and go ride  (if that oil comes out looking brown milk shake, then I would pull the swingarm)

... if I rode in rain on several occasions then I would pull the driveshaft and swingarm and check, clean, lube things ... and change the final drive oil

[Kiwi_Roy]

I just dropped the back wheel off my V7 and dropped the rear drive off,
There were just a few drops of water in the drive tunnel but there should have been None
Heres a link to Sign216's tutorial on removing the wheel etc
It's good to lube the splines occasionally.  I do it at every tire change, since the rear wheel is already off.  I wrote a tutorial on it for the first version of the V7:  https://www.flickr.com/photos/sign216/albums/72157625569987011     (double click on the photos to get the text)
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I will take a few pictures as I remove the swing arm
As SmithSwede said the way the boot is held into the swing-arm its obvious why it leaks, its held in place by a very strong spring clip, the problem is the clip is about 20 mm too short leaving part of the boot unsupported.
The clip is a real pain to get back in its just circular and has no place you can squeeze it with a pair of pliers. the ends of the wire are quite sharp as well, In hindsight I would make one out of a bicycle spoke perhaps with two full wraps. Anyway I applied some silicone sealant to this joint., it wouldn't hurt to do that if you aren't ready to pull the swing arm.
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I modified my bike lift with a bolt on lifting attachment to make it safer, this lifts by the 25mm pipe across the rear of the frame.

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Unbolt the brake hose clip from the swing-arm then remove the 27mm locknuts on the pivot pins.

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Unwind the pins on both sides by 12 full turns, its very important to note this so you can put it back exactly how it came off.
I didn't worry about the RH side as I just nip it up. Dont over tighten or you could snap the ears off the gearbox.

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The swing arm will now come off, note the hardened spacer on the RH side, the LH side doesn't have one.

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Looking down the tunnel.

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Note the unsupported portion of the boot at 7 o'clock, I believe this is where the water was entering.

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I siliconed the boot into the swing arm, this is something you may be able to do without removing the swing arm

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Just showing the coupling between the shaft and the rear end, there's a spring inside.
This ball shaped end on the shaft will move around in the coupling so its very important that gets grease, the other end has a universal joint

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The complete drive shaft.

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Showing the Swing Arm and Boot with spring clip.

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These wire hooks were very handy getting the boot back on

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Back together, another view of the lifting setup, its very important to bolt the bracket to the lifting jack, the bike will throw itself off otherwise.

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Dont ask me what I was supposed to be doing here

I don't think there is anything special about re assembling, obviously the shaft goes on first then the swing-arm slips over it.
Start one of the pins into the pivot bearings, don't forget the RH side has the hardened spacer washer.
At some point the LH pivot os screwed in 12 turns and the locknut is tightened, I used 40 lb Ft but don't take my word for it.
Note there's a plastic cap on the locknut so you can hold the pivot screw if needed while you nip up the nut, obviously the last little
bit is done without an Allen key.
The RH pivot screw is just nipped up, there may be a procedure in the manual, I didn't have it handy.

If anybody has the torque settings I can add them here.

[Kiwi_Roy]

temporary post

[shai385]

thank you for the great phtoes ,and explantions
i hope it wasnt too bad