European vs. Japanese vehicle reliability

[AJ Huff]

That's nothing, I saw a shop do the same thing with a $60k+ full boat luxury Suburban (about 15 years ago).  I didn't believe my eyes and asked about it and was told that was exactly what they were doing.   

I should have said, the frames were replaced because of factory recall.

-AJ

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

If you google cars that can hit 200,000 or 300,000 miles.. it is invariably full size American made trucks or suv, and Honda cars, and Toyota cars and suvs. Though I seem to remember the Volvo p1800 might have been the first to a million miles.. and I think I saw a wheeler dealers where they had a mid to late 80s Mercedes Benz, and they were like this is the high watermark for engineering and reliability.

Both of my Audis ('85 5000S and '88 80 Quattro) were long lived - the 5000S went 254k miles before it was totaled when I hit a deer, the 80Q was still going strong at 309k miles when I sold it. Even my '93 VW Eurovan was still going strong @ 225k miles, however the body was rotting away. The old VW/Audi inline 5 cylinder was a super tough engine.

It's not uncommon to find Mercedes W123 (220D and 300D) with 400k miles + on them and still being driven.

[old head]

I have only owned one European car, 1980 Ford Fiesta.  It was okay, but they used plastic cups on the ball joint for the rack and pinion, that had to be replaced about every 40k miles.  After I replaced it the third time, I got rid of it, really stupid design.

All the Japanese vehicles have been really reliable, except for a 72 Toyota Crown Cressida with a straight 6.

the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned was a 91 ford ranger, never broke except for EGR sensor, 4 of those in 180k miles.

I bought used Cherokee about 4years ago at a state auction, needed a few repairs, but after fixing it, it has been super reliable for the last 4 years, right at 230k right now.

my last new vehicle was a 2004 Nissan Frontier, and mechanically it was sound, but the fit and finish was not near as good as my Ranger.

My company uses Tacoma's as company vehicles, and all 3 of the ones I had went almost 300k ea before i had to turn them in, with only one having an issue, failed convertor that Toyota covered well out of warranty.

I have known people who had BMW's, Mercedes, Jag's but they never kept them long after the warranty ran out.

[bad Chad]

And then from the consumer standpoint, luck.

[Aaron D.]

So what vehicle built in 2020 would last 300,000 miles?

Well my 2014 Audi A5 is at 221,000 miles (my driving has dropped over the last 10 years) and should easily get to 300,000 if I've amind to-and I may.

I've taken other Audi products to near 300,000, so I won't say it's invariably American cars with high miles.

I figure I would have similar results with any American or Japanese car too.

[Canuck750]

German's sell engineering, tech and performance and when a system is on the bleeding edge its going to have issues. I had a 2004 BMW 530 that I kept for five years until the onboard computers (it had three systems) started to act up, reprogramming alone could run 8 hours each time it needed something.  BMW got it figured out though and I have had a three other 5 series since and they just keep getting better, never had an issue since other than a few recalls for hoses and sensors. I plan on keeping my current 2018 M550 for a long time, they depreciate a lot in the first four years so either you have to keep trading in or plan on long term ownership, being recently retired I can think of better things to spend money on that a new car every three or four years.

[bad Chad]

Luck!  All brands make “some” fantastically durable vehicles!

[LowRyter]

Well my 2014 Audi A5 is at 221,000 miles (my driving has dropped over the last 10 years) and should easily get to 300,000 if I've amind to-and I may.

I've taken other Audi products to near 300,000, so I won't say it's invariably American cars with high miles.

I figure I would have similar results with any American or Japanese car too.

Just curious, what have brakes jobs and timing belts cost in that time?

[AJ Huff]

Sounds like the answer to the original question is it's a misperception and Japanese vs European quality is more or less equal.

-AJ

[PhilB]

I think a lot of it is intent and expectations.  In my experience, having used Italian vehicles in America pretty much all my life (mostly Alfa Romeos, of which we had 10 in our family from 1965 to 2010), and Ducati (having put 300K miles total on a couple of Ducati Monsters), and some British (currently driving a 2002 Mini Cooper S with 222K miles on it) -- The American and Japanese companies build to the lowest common denominator.  They expect that the owners will not keep up with the maintenance properly, will not care for it well, will by cheap parts, etc.  So they design in extra tolerance and durability for that.  The downside is that the extra tolerance and durability means less fine tuning, no delicate balance, less "soul" or feeling.  European companies assume that the owners will have more diligence and competence about these things, because European culture fosters that better, and thus can and do design things more finely, more balanced and tuned, more road feel and soul.  And you pay for that with more maintenance and more expensive parts.

The old saying is "you get what you pay for", although I think that's not entirely true -- often you don't get what you paid for.  But what *is* true is the obverse -- you *don't* get what you *don't* pay for.

So what vehicle built in 2020 would last 300,000 miles?

Pretty much *anything*, if you break it in correctly, use it regularly, and maintain it properly.  It will be easiest in a Toyota or Honda, but then that's what you're driving for 20 years.  It will be more pleasant, albeit more maintenance and expense, to do it in a fine European car.  But just about anything these days will do it.

PhilB

[Tom]

There are some answers in this movie.    

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LImKOXpkdus&list=PLx-A21tqFoxiTs-zNtT_npN2f7LHtmPCk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Tjoz_0I4Gk

[DaveJT]

I think a lot of it is intent and expectations.  In my experience, having used Italian vehicles in America pretty much all my life (mostly Alfa Romeos, of which we had 10 in our family from 1965 to 2010), and Ducati (having put 300K miles total on a couple of Ducati Monsters), and some British (currently driving a 2002 Mini Cooper S with 222K miles on it) -- The American and Japanese companies build to the lowest common denominator.  They expect that the owners will not keep up with the maintenance properly, will not care for it well, will by cheap parts, etc.  So they design in extra tolerance and durability for that.  The downside is that the extra tolerance and durability means less fine tuning, no delicate balance, less "soul" or feeling.  European companies assume that the owners will have more diligence and competence about these things, because European culture fosters that better, and thus can and do design things more finely, more balanced and tuned, more road feel and soul.  And you pay for that with more maintenance and more expensive parts.

The old saying is "you get what you pay for", although I think that's not entirely true -- often you don't get what you paid for.  But what *is* true is the obverse -- you *don't* get what you *don't* pay for.
Pretty much *anything*, if you break it in correctly, use it regularly, and maintain it properly.  It will be easiest in a Toyota or Honda, but then that's what you're driving for 20 years.  It will be more pleasant, albeit more maintenance and expense, to do it in a fine European car.  But just about anything these days will do it.

PhilB

Hogwash.  Big tolerances give you HD style piston slap.  My Honda car takes 0w-20 motor oil.  Cars don’t run 20w-50 no more. Tight tolerances mean longer life, not less.
And as an aside.  There is no way you’re getting 300,000 miles out of a new Land Rover or a new Jaguar. Those things look brokedown while moving down the road.

[PhilB]

Hogwash.  Big tolerances give you HD style piston slap.  My Honda car takes 0w-20 motor oil.  Cars don’t run 20w-50 no more. Tight tolerances mean longer life, not less.
And as an aside.  There is no way you’re getting 300,000 miles out of a new Land Rover or a new Jaguar. Those things look brokedown while moving down the road.

Hogwash.  I didn't say *loose* tolerances, or sloppy tolerances -- I said the extra tolerances were built in.  So, for example, not a piston that slaps around, but a heavy piston that can take a lot of wear before it has to be replaced.

And stereotypes, and what things "look" like, don't advance the conversation or make for an effective argument.  There are high-mileage Land Rovers and Jaguars and Alfas and Minis and Ducatis and so on out there.  They just take some extra care and maintenance to get there.  My family members regularly got 150K to 200K out of '60's vintage Alfa Romeos.  We did that six times.  I got 265K out of a Ducati, and it was a hit-and-run driver that did it in, not mileage.  I'd be over 300K on that bike by now otherwise.

PhilB

[s1120]

So what vehicle built in 2020 would last 300,000 miles?

From my years working at a Mazda/VW dealer, and seeing all brands come through in the used car dept, I would say you want to the most basic, small to mid size car form most manufactures. As a whole the lower level cars just have less cutting edge systems that cause issues. Also it really helps to take care of them. Its so easy to forget becouse they run so well early on. Most old Mazdas I saw that were junked were not becouse of the fact that they were broke.. its that the cost to repair systems like converters were to costly.

[twowheeladdict]

I think a lot of it is intent and expectations.  In my experience, having used Italian vehicles in America pretty much all my life (mostly Alfa Romeos, of which we had 10 in our family from 1965 to 2010), and Ducati (having put 300K miles total on a couple of Ducati Monsters), and some British (currently driving a 2002 Mini Cooper S with 222K miles on it) -- The American and Japanese companies build to the lowest common denominator.  They expect that the owners will not keep up with the maintenance properly, will not care for it well, will by cheap parts, etc.  So they design in extra tolerance and durability for that.  The downside is that the extra tolerance and durability means less fine tuning, no delicate balance, less "soul" or feeling.  European companies assume that the owners will have more diligence and competence about these things, because European culture fosters that better, and thus can and do design things more finely, more balanced and tuned, more road feel and soul.  And you pay for that with more maintenance and more expensive parts.

The old saying is "you get what you pay for", although I think that's not entirely true -- often you don't get what you paid for.  But what *is* true is the obverse -- you *don't* get what you *don't* pay for.
Pretty much *anything*, if you break it in correctly, use it regularly, and maintain it properly.  It will be easiest in a Toyota or Honda, but then that's what you're driving for 20 years.  It will be more pleasant, albeit more maintenance and expense, to do it in a fine European car.  But just about anything these days will do it.

PhilB

That is an interesting post and observation.  I guess that is why there is a good aftermarket for many non-European cars for the enthusiasts who want to have sportier suspensions, more power, etc. etc. 

I, not being a car guy, could care less about owning performance cars.  For me they have always been vehicles to use when it is too dangerous to ride my bikes.  I want reliability over fun to drive.  I typically drive a car until it is worth $1000 before getting a different one.  There have been a few exceptions to that.  Even today, I have never spent more on a car or truck in my life than I have on motorcycles.  My truck sits tucked away in the corner of the garage waiting to be brought into service to haul my motorcycles on a camping trip or a work trip. 

If I ever give up riding and can still enjoy driving I would like to have a sports car, but I think I will give up riding when it is probably not that safe for me to be driving either. 

[Aaron D.]

Just curious, what have brakes jobs and timing belts cost in that time?

For this car, no timing belt. It's a chain. However I had the tensioner checked at 160,000 and it was at the end of its travel so I replaced the chain and tensioner. Not big money, but I can't recall the number.

Coming up on the second brake job, I expect $600 or so.

Clutch slave blew out at 180,000 which soaked the entire assembly. Total replacement was $1800-the dual mass flywheel was fine.

What you haven't asked-no electronic issues ever. Suspension bushings are fine. Original exhaust and battery. I hit a large pothole and blew the seals on the rear shocks.

If it were at a dealer the whole time it would be expensive but you can always find a factory tech with the parts connections in his own space.

[mechanicsavant]

I made a living for 25 Yrs. fixing brand new cars . Pick your brand or model , they all come with a warranty for a reason . Even Tesla has a service facility , & I’ve seen them on the side of the road with their “hoods”up ! Do the best ya can engineering them but , that old devil is still out there just a waiting. I can remember in the early 80’s setting up a new car for delivery , when i told the shop foreman it was all set . He said how’s it run ? It runs like a new car ,says I . He backhands me & says “FIX IT’

[willowstreetguzziguy]

When I started this post several days ago, I was thinking of the three BMW cars I had owned since 1984. I bought them all used with the last one being a 2001 BMW 330i. I bought it in 2002 with 14,000 miles and ran it until 2018 and I sold it with 195,000 miles. I’m sure it could have made it to 300,000 miles if I had wanted to spend the money to keep it running. It was a great driving car, but Every month, something was always needing repaired. (I had six window regulators installed installed in that car and zero in a 1983 BMW 533i over the same number of years of ownership. A major design flaw) in the later years, I found a young mechanic , a genius with BMW, Mercedes, and Porsches. He did most of my repairs at half the cost of the BMW dealership. With those cars, He knew when certain components we’re going to break. He knew the lifespan of most components. I had many conversations with him to delve into German automobiles. He was very disappointed with those automobiles built since 2000. He said the plastic parts were of inferior quality and they would deteriorate at certain intervals. And way too many computers on them that were costly to buy and install. He said if he was an average person and wanted to own and keep a German car made after 2000, he would either have a lot of money in the bank or would need to have a warranty on it. Too many expensive computers and modules that would go bad and cost too much money to replace.

He told me a story about a fairly new Audi that sat in the Philadelphia airport parking lot for several weeks. When the owner came back, it was totaled! Not because somebody ran into it But because rodents had gotten into it and had eaten into the major wiring harnesses that ran through the car. Labor and parts for all of that was more in the car was worth! Maybe the same would be true of Japanese cars.?

[EldoMike]

Back in the 80's I was a plant Materials Mgr for a large (at the time) manufacturing corp(Dana)...we were really getting into the quality thing and had many meetings and classes on Japanese manufacturing.  Our guys couldn't believe that a Japanese worker had the authority and was often rewarded for stopping a production line when they saw a quality problem..

[Tusayan]

I think the engineering peak for German stuff was in the early nineties.  After that the US car market aligned with Japanese competition introduced in the late ‘80s (Lexus, Acura, Infiniti) and people wanted all the features and doo-dads that the Japanese do well.  From that point on, the European manufacturers have been playing somebody else’s game, one they can’t do quite so well.  I think their survival depends on tariffs that protect them within the EU.  A friend of mine works for Allianz Insurance in Germany, an interesting job in which he works cooperatively and hands on with prototype cars & manufacturers to refine their design and cut insurance costs.  When he’s done working on the latest prototype VW and it’s time to go home, his Toyota is waiting in the parking lot.  Mazda are actually more popular in Germany for those who will think out of the box, because they drive nicely as well as having Japanese style reliability. 

I drove a series of Alfas every day from the mid-80s until the mid-2000s.  I loved them but each one became less interesting than the one before, and less reliable.  For me those times are in the past, cars now are appliance like from all makers and my interest is in something drives reasonably nicely while never breaking, because I’ve got too much other stuff going on to be bothered with them.  I buy them new and they get tossed at between 150 and 200K miles.

[DaveJT]

From my years working at a Mazda/VW dealer, and seeing all brands come through in the used car dept, I would say you want to the most basic, small to mid size car form most manufactures. As a whole the lower level cars just have less cutting edge systems that cause issues. Also it really helps to take care of them. Its so easy to forget becouse they run so well early on. Most old Mazdas I saw that were junked were not becouse of the fact that they were broke.. its that the cost to repair systems like converters were to costly.

It’s this. All the stupid doo dads they put on cars now cause they want to make it your living room.  Motorized lift gates and what not. Sure it’s cool, but it’s just one more thing to break.  That’s the stuff that will send current cars to the junkyard

[Shorty]

 Nissan is the new Chevy. If not for Nissan, about half the people in the South would be afoot.    And, so would I.   https://www.nissanusa.com/experience-nissan/news-and-events/where-are-nissans-made.html   

[Aaron D.]

Back in the 80's I was a plant Materials Mgr for a large (at the time) manufacturing corp(Dana)...we were really getting into the quality thing and had many meetings and classes on Japanese manufacturing.  Our guys couldn't believe that a Japanese worker had the authority and was often rewarded for stopping a production line when they saw a quality problem..

Hey, I worked for Dana as well! Industrial Power division. And they sent me to Japan to teach them how to make a certain type of clutch/brake device.

[Mr Pootle]

I've had a couple of BMW cars and a couple of Mercedes. I never had problems with any of them. But they were all 20th Century vehicles. In the last twenty years both companies have stopped being producers of quality vehicles and have gone for volume. The dealerships in the UK are no longer locally owned, but national, and the workshops employ more labour, with more turnover of trained mechanics. Time was when I'd see the same faces every time I went in. Not now. Both companies are producing too many different models too, adding to the dealership's problems.
I suspect that engineers have been sidelined and that marketing men are now running the show.

[LowRyter]

From my years working at a Mazda/VW dealer, and seeing all brands come through in the used car dept, I would say you want to the most basic, small to mid size car form most manufactures. As a whole the lower level cars just have less cutting edge systems that cause issues. Also it really helps to take care of them. Its so easy to forget becouse they run so well early on. Most old Mazdas I saw that were junked were not becouse of the fact that they were broke.. its that the cost to repair systems like converters were to costly.

I'll comment on VW/Audi and their 2.0 turbo bread and butter engine.  It's been a time bomb.  A friend purchased a Jetta, the engine blew at 60k miles.  The timing chain tensioner is run by oil pressure, so upon start, the timing chain jumps, the engine gets trashed.  I did an internet search and found there were kinds of class action lawsuits.  VW would change part numbers on the failed items, only to limit liability because the new parts were no better.  This caused delays in the lawsuit as additional car models were added.

My brother-in-law purchased an Audi, they got rid of it after getting the bill for the brake job. 

Not mentioning the scandal with polluting VW diesels.

I agree about getting reliable mid level car vs any luxury car.  I'm big fan of Honda Accord which is pretty sporty car with a stick (not available anymore).

[LowRyter]

For this car, no timing belt. It's a chain. However I had the tensioner checked at 160,000 and it was at the end of its travel so I replaced the chain and tensioner. Not big money, but I can't recall the number.

Coming up on the second brake job, I expect $600 or so.

Clutch slave blew out at 180,000 which soaked the entire assembly. Total replacement was $1800-the dual mass flywheel was fine.

What you haven't asked-no electronic issues ever. Suspension bushings are fine. Original exhaust and battery. I hit a large pothole and blew the seals on the rear shocks.

If it were at a dealer the whole time it would be expensive but you can always find a factory tech with the parts connections in his own space.

Parts connection is an issue, I think that's key.  The cost of brake parts was prohibitive for my BIL.  Perhaps if he had your experience, he's have kept it?

I want to get one of those batteries, what brand is it?

[DaveJT]

I'll comment on VW/Audi and their 2.0 turbo bread and butter engine.  It's been a time bomb.  A friend purchased a Jetta, the engine blew at 60k miles.  The timing chain tensioner is run by oil pressure, so upon start, the timing chain jumps, the engine gets trashed.  I did an internet search and found there were kinds of class action lawsuits.  VW would change part numbers on the failed items, only to limit liability because the new parts were no better.  This caused delays in the lawsuit as additional car models were added.

My brother-in-law purchased an Audi, they got rid of it after getting the bill for the brake job. 

Not mentioning the scandal with polluting VW diesels.

I agree about getting reliable mid level car vs any luxury car.  I'm big fan of Honda Accord which is pretty sporty car with a stick (not available anymore).

Yep. Audis are nice. And you see a bunch in Europe obviously. But the lower end ones seem to be rebadged vw’s. And I get the desire to have one engine used across the platform, but at least have the decency to make it bulletproof. The questionable reliability of their turbo four 1.8? Or just the 2.0 is an unforced error

[LowRyter]

Yep. Audis are nice. And you see a bunch in Europe obviously. But the lower end ones seem to be rebadged vw’s. And I get the desire to have one engine used across the platform, but at least have the decency to make it bulletproof. The questionable reliability of their turbo four 1.8? Or just the 2.0 is an unforced error

I don't know enough to mention the 1.8.  I would assume some similarity but didn't do that much research. 

Here's the story.  My friend from around Denver came to visit on the way to Nashville.  When they left my place, I could hear the rattling timing chain and mentioned it.  They got to Memphis and the car wouldn't run when they started.  Dropped it at a VW and the engine was toast.  Extended warranty gave them a used engine replacement.    A year later they traded it for a Honda CRV.

[Vagrant]

We've been beating around the bush here but the truth is only one thing is important. How many dollars will it take in total out of your pocket to drive a vehicle as long as you want to? that includes the original cost vs the trade-in, all repairs, insurance license, etc.

[Scott of the Sahara]

In 2005 I purchased a Dodge (Mercedes) Sprinter van for work. It has the 2.7 5Cyl. Turbo Diesel with about 85,000 miles.
There was not anything comparable on the market at the time.
After 15 years of service, it is still running well. I have had some minor repairs along the way but it is generally reliable and does what it is supposed to do. It also does a good job of hauling motorcycles when needed.
I agree with the comment about the electrical doo dads. This thing has crank windows.
I am totally happy with it.
I know that the engine design was changed in later years and some of the newer vans have been terrible.