Few questions about a cali 1100i?

[Tom H]

Looks like you should have a connection. Ignition on, "kill switch in run position", bike not running. You are looking at under a volt for the idle. IIRR about 4v for wide open. You need your meter on a low volt setting. And again, for the moment, you just want to make sure it increases smoothly, no flat spots while you twist the grip.

While you have the connector off, take the leads of the meter and check between the wires for voltage. It "should be" the ones you are in. Then again check your pins with the meter to make sure they are making contact. Sure looks like they should be.

When I got my EVT, I had to learn about FI. Took a bit and alot of questions here. When in doubt, ask!

Tom

[lad]

I have 2 wires reading the 5v from wire to ground, thought there should only be one?

[Kiwi_Roy]

Also the info Tom H sent me from http://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2012/10/throttle-position-sensor-setting_21.html seems waaaay more complicated than the pdf from GuzziSteve, which boils the procedure down to a few steps...

What am I missing? Why is one so involved?

The rabbit-hole is mighty and wide

They are both correct really but I suggest you use the one from GuzziSteve, the other one mentions 400 mV, thats just the reading at normal idle, the 150mV with the throttle fully closed is the important one, once set you do not touch the TPS screws again.

I have 2 wires reading the 5v from wire to ground, thought there should only be one?

If you are getting 5 Volts on the third pin it's possible your TPS has gone open at the lower end. Most schematics show the TPS as a simple potentiometer but it has some other resistors inside that send it to a default Voltage if the main rheostat goes open circuit, thats why you cannot simply read it with an Ohmmeter.

[lad]

Ok, I got a reading, can't even remember why I needed a reading now.

Just to disclose, I wasn't getting a reading because I had the fuel tank off and I pulled the fuel-pump fuse out so as not to spill any fuel. Apparently this messes with the readings, maybe I should have mentioned that. Anyway, progress.

Here's a slo-mo video https://i.imgur.com/0z3rc4t.mp4

Here's a transcription:

0.18
0.21
0.45
0.85
1.37
1.89
2.44
2.88
3.21
3.51
3.66
3.79
3.81
4.08
4.09
4.17
4.27
4.38
4.42
4.48
4.56
4.65
4.76
4.78
4.77
4.69
4.58
4.48
4.34
4.11
4.09
3.81
3.05
2.29
1.23
0.60
0.21
0.18

[Tom H]

Is this with the throttle stop screw backed out? Or with the screw still screwed in for idle? It looks like the stop screw was backed out.

It looks OK to me until the top where it drops off. I'll check mine latter today to see if mine drops off at wide open.

Tom

[ChrisG]

This thread is a keeper for me. Thanks everyone.

[lad]

Is this with the throttle stop screw backed out?

Tom

I don't know where or what that is yet so I presume it's not backed out and is tuned in...Should be a higher reading at the end? Looks linear anyway, albeit a few bit jumps....?

[Tom H]

Then if you did not turn any screws and just tested the TPS, I think your initial reading is low. S/B about 400mv which I believe would be about .4 volt, Kiwi_Roy????? The top drops off, that doesn't look right. The middle advanced ok, but seems high.

I'll check my bike and let you know latter today.

Chasing flat spots can be fun.....Not!!!

Tom

[lad]

I'll check my bike and let you know latter today

Chasing flat spots can be fun.....Not!!!

Tom

Thanks Tom, it's especially fun when you're still we behind the ears.

I tested my plug resistance there, left was at 4.7, right isn't really showing up anything, it flashed a reading once but only on 200k scale at 48, so I'm going to swap them out for a new set anyway, no harm.

[Tom H]

Coil S/B 3k ohm. Cap MAY be resistor, S/B 5kokm. Put one lead of the meter in the plug cap and one to cylinder or frame. S/B about 8k ohm.

Fixing problems long distance makes for alot of questions. But normally well worth it.

Tom

[Tom H]

Here are some numbers. Note the dial on the meter. Left image is set on 2V and at idle. Middle is set at 20V at idle. Right is W/O.  I don't have an easy way to up a video.




In case we have your head spinning with the voltages. For your test you have done it the right way, you didn't change any of the screw adjustments. You are looking at the voltage with the butterfly open enough for the bike to idle. You should have a reading about where the middle picture is or down to about .4V on the 20V scale. This is what you would end up with when you finish with the instructions.

The instructions that you were pointed to were mainly to see how to attach your meter. The instructions that show about .135-.165 is with the idle stop screw fully backed out, butterfly fully closed and the link rods between the TB's off. This gives a baseline for the ECU to know where a fully closed throttle is. Some say it's not worth the time to do this and instead just go .4-.5V where the bike would idle atand be done with it.

Tom

[Vagrant]

https://ca-cycleworks.com/pf09.html

I kept this site in Conyers Ga. I think the prices are very good and it looks like he has all of the ones we might use.
But, are they real or cheap Chinese junk?

[Tom H]

This part of instructions below explains a bit about what idle voltage S/B. You should have the big ECU under the rear of the driver seat. I do not think it matters which ECU you have anymore. You just go by the new number. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

"9. Turn the ignition on and kill switch on but do not start the bike. With the throttle plate stop screws backed off, your multimeter Should read 150mv across the two wire positions you traced out.  If not, loosen the 2 screws that hold the TPS to the throttle body and rotate it to get 150mv and re-tighten screws.

10. Turn in TPS side throttle plate stop until you get 500 to 525mv on your multimeter.  Turn in the non-TPS side throttle plate stop screw until it just touches the butterfly stop. Most folks will tell you 360-380mv  but this is wrong for the new bikes with 1.5M computers.  500-525 is the correct number for the new machines. After this step, do not touch the TPS side throttle stop screw!"

Step 10 shows the number you should be at right now at idle without adjusting any of the screws. Again if I read your numbers right, you are way low at idle, but just about right for W/O until it drops off.

MAYBE........If the TPS is not adjusted right at the running idle of .5V, MAYBE it runs out of..... UMMMM... area to get numbers from??? Any thoughts Kiwi??

Tom

[lad]

MAYBE........If the TPS is not adjusted right at the running adle of .5V, MAYBE it runs out of..... UMMMM... area to get numbers from??? Any thoughts Kiwi??

Tom

i see, i see, well...the head is spinning slightly, but less than it was. Thanks for for pictures and test. I'm assume your bike is running sweet as a sparrow? What ECU is in your bike? What's your bike? I'm not sure on the differences between models yet either.

I'll have to look into further, did you quote this- https://www.dpguzzi.com/efiman.pdf -in the instructions there?

Where I'm confused now is that the idle is apparently set at the trimmer at the ECU, so I'm not sure what the I should be reading regarding throttle stop screws, or which one to adjust first etc....they say the trimmer is the last step. Should I adjust the mechanical screws to get those idle readings?

I have a set of carbtune pro there too at the ready, as per the bradthebikeguy(?) instructions floating around...

quagmire, to say the least.

[lad]

I kept this site in Conyers Ga. I think the prices are very good and it looks like he has all of the ones we might use.
But, are they real or cheap Chinese junk?

I can't vouch for anything in America, I see they have it marked as their own brand, which could suggest chinese, but everyone is linking to it. I have found a different make of PF09 in Germany, closer to home, that I can pull the trigger on if things get too hairy.

[pehayes]

Where I'm confused now is that the idle is apparently set at the trimmer at the ECU, so I'm not sure what the I should be reading regarding throttle stop screws, or which one to adjust first etc....they say the trimmer is the last step. Should I adjust the mechanical screws to get those idle readings?

You have an 1100i (probably 1995-96).   You have the P8 computer under the seat.  Don't pay any attention to instructions for the M15 computer.  Your TPS has an adjustable position.  The newer model bikes (after 2000) use a fixed position TPS and adjustments are made by software.

The trim control in the P8 computer is a simple rheostat which controls relative fuel mixture at idle.  It has no direct connection to idle speed or TPS setting.  It is rarely adjusted.  Usually not more than half a turn if at all.  The rheostat can turn about 3 full turns in each direction.  It then has an internal  slip clutch so it can keep turning and  turning without further effect.  Turning in either direction you can feel it bump up against the slip clutch.  Count the number of full turns.  Base setup is probably halfway between the two extremes.  Usually only adjusted if you find excessive 'popping' on overrun or downhill run with throttle backed off.

Set your TPS at its base 0.150mV.
Connect linkage and get the bike running and idling.
Use carbtune to inspect intake vacuums and adjust the left side adjuster for equal idle balance.
You can recheck the TPS which should now read about 0.400mV.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[LowRyter]

I kept this site in Conyers Ga. I think the prices are very good and it looks like he has all of the ones we might use.
But, are they real or cheap Chinese junk?

I think all of them are Chinese Junk -whatever brand.  These are probably as good as any.  Available and won't break the bank.  Pay $300 and get the same thing.  BTW- what do you call the one that came on the bike in the first place, cheap German junk?

[Tom H]

lad, so you have confirmed the low and top numbers are way off from my pictures?? If so.......

There are a few ways to go with this depending on your pocketbook and how much trial and error you are willing to put up with.

Your issue of flat spots can be a number of things. TPS, coils, plug wires, plug caps, bad wire connection in the bikes harness, cracked rubber boot from TB to cylinder heat ect.. From your description, I was thinking TPS. You did the check without changing anything. To me the numbers are wrong.

The PO could have changed the TPS and never set it properly. Trying to be cheap, you could take the time to follow the instructions in the links provided and correctly set the TPS. The TPS could be faulty and you wasted some time, maybe a few hours to try to make it work right.

If you want to try to adjust the TPS, I would just try for the idle voltage first rather than the baseline. I would hook up your meter and loosen the TPS screws and try to get it at about .450-.500V. Make sure you do read the "." not 5.00 volts. If you want to try this, you do not need to adjust idle screws, linkages and all the rest in the instructions.

Then I would read the voltage as you twist the throttle grip and see if it looks better and then take it for a spin and see how it runs.

You could also try to clean the TPS before replacing it. Some searching here for a fairly recent post will explain how. May not work, but it may have saved a buck/Euro.

If you decide to replace the TPS, then I would be inclined to follow the instructions and go from the baseline with the throttle stop screws loosened and linkages removed. It's not hard, just takes time and some patience. With following the instructions, you will have done a "full  set up" for the TB's. OR, you could also just put the new TPS in and adjust for the idle voltage as some say to do.

As far as fuel Trim, your ECU uses a screw. On my 2004 EV Tpuring, the trim is software controlled. The TPS, PF3C, is adjustable. For the moment, I would be less concerned about the trim than the TPS voltage.

You decide on your time, pocketbook on how you would like to proceed. Do not just take what I say as the only answer. Read what others have said and take the hours or minutes that it may take to search here for other answers.

Ask away, good luck!
Tom

[lad]

lad, so you have confirmed the low and top numbers are way off from my pictures??

Thanks Tom,

Our top numbers are identical, but my low is way lower, so maybe if I start fiddling with the TPS I'll lose that top? Or maybe that's a sign that it's a bit grungey inside and needs a clean?

If i want to remove and clean it, can it just be removed at the two screws or do I have to adjust linkage/etc first?

I reckon it was replaced, all signs point to the fact that this model should have had a PF09, so it could be a case of PO. That said, it has yellow paint on the screws which suggest it was done by somebody who at least thought they knew what they were doing!

Which leads me to the bigger question. If it was replaced, and set up properly, then whey did it fail now. The left boot doesn't look like it's in the best shape, so it could be a case of having multiple issue compound.

I might start with the easy idle voltage and a clean for now, then look at replacing with a PF09 and doing the full set up, while examining the reason for its current glitch.

Should be out of the shed by summer right?

[Tom]

What year is your bike? 

[Tom]

But, are they real or cheap Chinese junk?

Could be cheap American junk. 

[lad]

What year is your bike?

1996

[lad]

My ignition wires are labelled 'CAVIS', they are black, but seem to be old, are they vintage? I think they might be carbon core and should be replaced more frequently that a solid or spiral, anyone know about that? Might just swap them out for luck

Also what screws and size are on the TPS? I can't get into them with anything, which might be a headache-in-waiting, or maybe they are blocked with whatever that yellow paint is and I can dig them out

[Kiwi_Roy]

With the butterfly fully closed the Voltage should be close to 150 millivolts. Thats with the linkage off, the fast idle lever having no effect and the idle screw backed out.
Why 150 millivolts and not zero? If it were zero the TPS might get jammed against its mechanical stop and break so they chose a small way up the scale. It won't go all the way to 5 Volts for the same reason, don't want to hit the travel limit and break something quite delicate.
I watched it several times and it looked much smoother, The first time I was just moving the cursor by hand, the numbers look to be smooth Up and then back.
The idle speed is set by the throttle stop screws, the idle mixture is set by the ECU screw, I found with my P8 the screw cured a backfire on deceleration.

Then if you did not turn any screws and just tested the TPS, I think your initial reading is low. S/B about 400mv which I believe would be about .4 volt, Kiwi_Roy????? The top drops off, that doesn't look right. The middle advanced ok, but seems high.

I'll check my bike and let you know latter today.

Chasing flat spots can be fun.....Not!!!

Tom

Yes 400 mV is 0.4V, Its best to use the 20 Volt range and not change, an old analog meter would have a zero to 10V range and show it better.
I agree with Tom the millivolts at 180 is too low for idle speed of 1100 its 150 at fully closed then when you adjust the throttle stop the butterfly opens so naturally the millivolts rises as well. You don't adjust the TPS to get 400 you adjust the idle stop to get 400 which just happens to be about right for idle, I remember that step confused me when I was learning.

Thanks Tom, it's especially fun when you're still we behind the ears.

I tested my plug resistance there, left was at 4.7, right isn't really showing up anything, it flashed a reading once but only on 200k scale at 48, so I'm going to swap them out for a new set anyway, no harm.

Seems like you may have a break in the lead then, 4.7k seems a bit lower than I have seen but don't worry if they are both the same, you could try shortening the lead by half an inch or so, they often go open at the end.
I would replace the leads with copper core and resistor caps if it doesn't have them already. Some plugs end in the letter "R" I think that denotes they have a resistor in the plug, you could use a non-resistor cap in that case. About 1970 the resistor was added to avoid radio and television interference if my memory is correct.
You could also screw the lead out of the coil and measure across the coils to chassis, both should be the same there.

I don't know where or what that is yet so I presume it's not backed out and is tuned in...Should be a higher reading at the end? Looks linear anyway, albeit a few bit jumps....?

Refer to the long winded method Tom H sent you in a link, it shows all the components, the throttle stops are in pictures 4 & 5
 

[pehayes]

My ignition wires are labelled 'CAVIS', they are black, but seem to be old, are they vintage?

In Italian, CAVO is wire or cable, with a plural of CAVI.  So, its like someone labelled your wires as WIRES.

:-)

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Tom H]

The TPS screws on my '04 are Torx T-20. I looked at your picture, yes the paint is there, but not in the hole.  You need to give the screws a good wire brushing to be sure if Torx or not.

Kiwi Roy, thank for clearing up the 400mv and .4V. Wanted to be sure I said it correctly.

I have read that provided the idle stop screw has never been moved. You can just set the TPS. I would go with what Patrick said, about .400v. Take it for  ride and see how it does.

If this does not solve your flat spots AND you have looked at ALL other possibilities including the spark plug wires and maybe some spray TB cleaner in the throat of the TB by just pulling back the tubes to the air box, then I would either try to clean the TPS or just replace it. Not knowing the internal specs. between the 9 and the 3 TPS, I would probably go with a 3 for the ease of access for the wire connector.

Hope this helps a bit,
Tom

[John A]

It needs to be connected while you are measuring it. I used to use a pin but on this site someone found a lead which I bought, maybe if you do a search you can find it. They are cheap and make it easier.
Edit: found it https://www.amazon.com/109172-TPS-Breakout-Dense-Metripack/dp/B014TKDYHC

[Tom H]

I use one of those as well. No more fiddling around trying to get the sewing pins to make contact.

Tom

[Kiwi_Roy]

I use one of those as well. No more fiddling around trying to get the sewing pins to make contact.

Tom

When I had an EV with the P8 computer I soldered a short wire onto the large connector terminal 17, on the other end of the wire I crimped a blue crimp connector which is about right to take a meter probe so I could just plug my meter in at any time. The Negative probe was just connected to battery ground or a convenient bolt on the chassis.

[lad]

It needs to be connected while you are measuring it. I used to use a pin but on this site someone found a lead which I bought, maybe if you do a search you can find it. They are cheap and make it easier.
Edit: found it https://www.amazon.com/109172-TPS-Breakout-Dense-Metripack/dp/B014TKDYHC

I got a reading alright, it was connected, just disconnect for the picture.

Is reading the TPS that common that you'd need this tool?