WW2 Radial Engine Start Noise

[tris]

I know that someone on here will know the answer to this!

I've noticed that when they start a big radial there is a whine that is in some way the starter but its not connected to the engine until the pilot later engages something when he's ready

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8PGxaqJVgs

It's obviously not connected directly to the crank, but what is it going on?

Is it building air pressure to feed directly to the cylinders or a fly wheel storing energy to spin the engine over

Cheers

Tris

[John A]

It’s an inertial starter, basically a flywheel that is spun up and engaged when it gets up to speed.
That one is being spun up with an electric motor. Some use an air turbine and some have a hand crank provision. Cool stuff

[tris]

I knew that someone would know!

Cheers John 

[Moparnut72]

Exactly correct. Of the engines we did when I worked on radials I think it was the Pratts that used those starters.
kk

[wavedog]

Yeah, inertial starter. The Dromaders that I flew had eastern block inertial starters. Your hands were dancing around the cockpit getting one of those cranked over.
 The P&W radials on the C47 and the Convairs just had electric starters.

[grebmrof]

It is also interesting how the videos don't depict the true rotation of the props...I think their scan rate acts a bit like a strobe and slows down the prop rotations sometimes showing them going backwards other times standing almost still.  Somebody chime in on what we are seeing when that happens?

[ohiorider]

Some of the ME-109 fighters equipped with Daimler Benz V12 engines used an inertia starter that required some manpower to spin up the flywheel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgTw-w4k87E

Bob

[Murray]

Some of the ME-109 fighters equipped with Daimler Benz V12 engines used an inertia starter that required some manpower to spin up the flywheel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgTw-w4k87E

Bob

As well as the AN2 and the tiger tank.

[John A]

As well as the AN2 and the tiger tank.

When I was in Bellingham, WA , I was able to see the first two of supposedly forty AN2’s a guy had bought in Russia after the Soviet fall. They were primitive with wing skin like barn tin and they were big enough to hold 30 skydivers. Big Polish radial engine that rotated opposite of ours. They could fly at thirty mph and had a big red hammer and sickle on the tail with CCCP in large red letters on the fuselage. Battery operated inertial starter on those monsters https://youtu.be/awVmSJe4nLI

[tris]

When I was in Bellingham, WA , I was able to see the first two of supposedly forty AN2’s a guy had bought in Russia after the Soviet fall. They were primitive with wing skin like barn tin and they were big enough to hold 30 skydivers. Big Polish radial engine that rotated opposite of ours. They could fly at thirty mph and had a big red hammer and sickle with CCCP in large red letters. Battery operated inertial starter on those monsters https://youtu.be/awVmSJe4nLI

That's cool that AN2

[Murray]

When I was in Bellingham, WA , I was able to see the first two of supposedly forty AN2’s a guy had bought in Russia after the Soviet fall. They were primitive with wing skin like barn tin and they were big enough to hold 30 skydivers. Big Polish radial engine that rotated opposite of ours. They could fly at thirty mph and had a big red hammer and sickle with CCCP in large red letters. Battery operated inertial starter on those monsters https://youtu.be/awVmSJe4nLI

The flight manual says something about an emergency starting procedure with a handle and what is described as a "strong man". So it's likely near impossible from the average person been the Russians not prone to hyperbole.

[Calidavid]

Catch-22. The best movie opening scene for warbird fans. Skip the credits if you are impatient.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHDRURvU5PA

[huub]

we had a AN2 running from a local small airfield for some years ,
the startup procedure was interesting , first turn the prop by hand a couple of revs, ( big prop , lots of compression,  great exercise ) to clear the cylinders from oil, the vertical ones fill up with oil after standing for some time.
than getting the inertia starter up to speed , which cost another minute or so.
if it started it burned all the oil that was just pumped out ( some 5 liters of it)
It covered the whole airfield in a thick layer of smoke.

i did a couple of sightseeing flights with it ,
the takeoff speed was amazingly slow , one moment you were taxying , the next moment you were flying at 30 MPH.... 

 

[tris]

Well thanks chaps, now I know what to look for I could do a bit of a Google search and found this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sU3fRqj_bmE

The CGI is a little irritating, but the message, at least for the German machines, is clear

Thanks again

[wavedog]

I used to remove a spark plug from the bottom cylinders (each had 2) when the plane had been sitting a while to let the oil drain out. On the Dromader I had cans with wire loops and would hang them on the cylinders. On the C47 it was a little more complex with the cowling removal. The Convair, with the 2800- fergit it. Just crank it over unless it had been sitting a long long time, which it never did. With the radials on the Ag-cat and the Air tractor it was the same thing- make sure there was no oil in the cylinder. They all still smoked on start up when the engine was cold. That was kind of cool.  The turbine motors were much better in some ways but lost a little soul.

[tparr]

Nothing like the rumble of a big radial engine. Remember the movie Flight of the Phoenix starring Jimmy Stewart? The aircraft was a Fairchild C-82. In the movie they used a type of charged shell to start the big radial. A "shotgun starter" known as the Coffman engine starter. Link to a wiki article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffman_engine_starter

[brider]

They could fly at thirty mph

I saw one of those rascals at an airshow in CA about 30 yrs ago. The announcer told the crowd "Folks, you won't believe how slow this thing will fly...", and I watched it start it's run and couldn't believe something that big could go airborne moving that slow. That is COOL, and I have a lot of respect for the Russian design philosophy of designing for EXACTLY the need or requirement, and everything else is secondary. Like survivability or comfort in a T-series tank.

[John A]

Nothing like the rumble of a big radial engine. Remember the movie Flight of the Phoenix starring Jimmy Stewart? The aircraft was a Fairchild C-82. In the movie they used a type of charged shell to start the big radial. A "shotgun starter" known as the Coffman engine starter. Link to a wiki article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffman_engine_starter

The starter cartridges we used on B- 52’s were black powder. I don’t remember how much, either 5 or 15 pounds. Lot of smoke. But they were turbines, not half as interesting as a radial and just made noise, not half as good as a radial.

[Gliderjohn]

Had a B-17 ride a few years ago. Was seated in the plane before startup. I was positioned next to the right side gunner window so plenty of smoke and noise when the engines were fired up. The run ups were fun too. Also did a flight in a Stearman with a much smaller radial. Back in the early 80s attended an airshow in Topeka that featured 50 warbirds in formation lead by three B-17s. Now that was some wonderful noise. Yea, old radials are very cool.
GliderJohn

[Murray]

The starter cartridges we used on B- 52’s were black powder. I don’t remember how much, either 5 or 15 pounds. Lot of smoke. But they were turbines, not half as interesting as a radial and just made noise, not half as good as a radial.

Interesting can't remember what the start carts were on the pigs, it was nasty and you made sure you didn't breath the gases in and they were handled as an explosive. Black powder I associate with a more explosive response to ignition where was the starter carts were a more constant response. Not black powder initiated per chance?

[John A]

It was a canister with a squib to light it. It produced high volume low pressure gas to spin the starter in the same way as the air huffer cart.

[Moparnut72]

My old boss had a Stearman. It came from the factory with a 220hp Lycoming. He bumped his to 300hp with some trickery. He is in an extended care facility, I don’t know what happened to the plane. It was spotless and  painted like a Navy Trainer.
kk

[twowings]

This has always been one of my favorites to be close to at startup:



https://youtu.be/v0iEqLorxF4

I can imagine more than one passenger gazing out the window, "Um, stewardess..."

[wavedog]

The super Connie! The Constellation is the most beautiful airliner ever.
I got to ride on one from California to Japan way back in the day. 36 hour flight, stopped in Hawaii, Wake island and the plane went around Mt Fuji so everyone could get a good view.
Yes at night there was a sheet of flame from the motors. Very cool memories.

[Gliderjohn]

There has been a Connie parked at the Salina, KS airport for decades. There was a couple feeble attempts back in the 80s to try and restore it but nothing ever happened. Don't have any idea who actually owns it currently.
GliderJohn

[wavedog]

  Here is a video from a friend I used to fly with back in the day. This is starting a PZL M-18 Dromader. We used these firefighting for a while.

    https://youtu.be/hyP5NP-BmNE