U/J Carrier bearing collapse

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I always plan out what I'm going to do, think it through, and despite, or perhaps because, my mechanical skills leave a bit to
 be desired, I try and think of any pitfalls that might occur.

So I always check out the exploded view diagrams of anything I'm dealing with, and then if anything is confusing me, I can look into it,
ask questions etc. . . . Well one can try, and it's definitely a good approach for anyone like me who doesn't already have a deep
understanding. However, it ain't foolproof 

Thanks to Charlie for making me consider the blind hole slide hammer bearing puller. What a great tool it is, and even for the new
 asking price of £25- £30 it's a bargain, and to find one used but perfect condition for £15, better still.

So I pulled the first swing arm roller bearing, the drive shaft side. A few taps to free it and a few more to drive it out of the blind hole,
well that was worth £15 on its own.

Ah but then .... The other side, having first removed the oil seal and inner race and rollers, I inserted the collet, screwed on the slide hammer,
and began whacking away, expecting the same result.

No way, it just wouldn't budge at all. That's strange I thought to myself, and kept whacking some more, and some more, and some more. I rapped
my knuckle on the slide hammer's T-handle, which confirmed to me in an instant that I was whacking it hard enough 

I kept checking the depth of the bearing from above, I thought I'd felt it give a bit, but sure enough, it wasn't being forced out of its hole at all,
staying exactly where it was.




Time to sit and ponder this, partly cos I was knackered, and partly because something just didn't feel right somehow. It didn't look like it had
suffered from corrosion, and I couldn't figure it out.

So I sat down for a different perspective, and man, that's just what I got, wtf?




"Hey, referee!", the exploded diagram did not show that there's a pressed in sleeve on the disc brake side of the swing arm, that seats the
 bearing 

One question I have is as to whether this is standard from manufacture, or is it the result of a previous repair?

Either way, I figure I've tightened the collet too far into the blind hole, and grabbed the rear of the sleeve, and as a result, put zero pressure
 on the bearing, and instead I was pulling the frickin' frame apart. . . . However, if that ain't a testament to the ability of the slide hammer blind hole
 puller, I don't know what is 

One thing I noticed, is that the outer edge of this sleeve looks quite battered and bruised, it's not something I've done (for once  ),
and wondering how that might have come to be? . . . Maybe someone has done the same in the past, and been rough reinserting it? . . .
Or is this a result of riding over time with damaged bearings. It looks as if there are markings not just on the outer edge, but on the inside of
 the recess too.




I'd have thought, as it's not shown in the exploded diagram of the swing arm, that if this was a standard Guzzi fitment, it'd be tack welded
 in place, but it clearly isn't, and I guess it's not something that could work free under normal riding conditions, being trapped in by the swing arm.

I'll pop a piece of wood over the top and see about whacking it back in, and relocating the collet in the correct place, and try again.

Any ideas, or answers to my puzzlement?

Cheers, Martizzug

That's the way they're made on that side. Sometimes the outer race comes out, sometimes the whole thing.
If you have an appropriately sized bearing driver, socket, tube, etc., drive the outer race out of that sleeve before reinserting it into the swingarm.
If you put it back in with the outer race still in it, the same thing will happen again.

[izzug otom]

That's the way they're made on that side. Sometimes the outer race comes out, sometimes the whole thing.
If you have an appropriately sized bearing driver, socket, tube, etc., drive the outer race out of that sleeve before reinserting it into the swingarm.
If you put it back in with the outer race still in it, the same thing will happen again.

Ah thanks for that tip, I would have done exactly that

I have universal exhaust shims, one of which is a perfect fit for pressing the new ones in, providing it's strong enough to do so without buckling
 under the pressure.



share image


But from the other end I haven't been able to find something to fit to push/drive it out. The photo somehow shows the visible lip of the outer race
 to be more generous than it appears by eye, but measured with vernier callipers the sleeve's inside end diameter is 32.8mm and the outer race inside diameter there is 31.1mm.

This leaves only 1.7mm total showing, a rim of 0.85mm, which means finding something very precise to be small enough to fit through the rear of
the sleeve, yet big enough to grab the race.




 Is this what you had in mind Charlie, or have I perhaps lost some metal to excessive wear in the bearing.

Is it a complete no, no, to carefully tipetty tap it out with a punch at 12, 6, 3, 9 repeated til necessary?

Also, I assume the bearing should be fully home to the bottom of the sleeve when I refit? There's a gap showing in this photo, but that's probably down to me
 shifting it a bit before the sleeve started to move.




................... .

I decided on ordering some of the Lucas Red n Tacky grease for the splines, after a youtube video left me unimpressed with the white Castrol Optimol, as not
 much had stayed on the splines of the guys bmw GS1200.

I've noticed that my bike had been lubed with red grease, and although it had pretty much gone from the drive shaft area, it being such a bad mess, there were
 still good traces of it where the splines mated up to the U/J's, which were not stuck together at all, and in fairly good condition. Also the teeth connecting the
 rear wheel to the final drive box were still coated in the stuff, albeit a bit on the dry side, and again the teeth seem in a good state.

I thought the wheel bearing on the bevel box side looked a rusty coloured, til I realised it was residue of red grease, again, a bit dried up.

If the Red n Tacky can still be doing some good after being neglected so long, I hardly need any convincing, and I certainly won't be neglecting this vital
maintenance again 

I also ordered a new rubber boot to cover the u/j after all. Although there's no signs of any tears etc, it does feel like it's stiffer and less supple than it once was. I
figured I should change it whilst I've got it apart, and could easily imagine ripping a hole during the reinstall procedure, pulling it back to line up and connect the u/j
 to the gearbox output shaft, and I certainly don't want to be inviting moisture into the driveshaft housing.

Mind you, it's still quite an impressive decision for a man who's prepared to use gaffa tape for his seat cover 




I took the swing arm, the swing arm drive shaft and the u/j to the local garage last night, and jet washed all the crud out of the tube that holds the driveshaft. I'm
not sure how to treat the inside of the housing, perhaps a squirt of chain lube as suggested by Charlie above, for the inside of twing arm blind tube section behind the
disc brake side swing arm bearing.

Looking in there last night it looks like someone has done the same in there, but with red grease, in the past. and it all looks good inside.

The bearings in both sides were well worn, and the red grease looked to be a bit dry, but they didn't look to have suffered water damage.

So yes, more red grease and a new gaiter are going to be deployed.

I've ordered some more 80-90 oil for the gear box and bevel box too. I think it was Pete Roper that I'd noticed had mentioned in a transmission oil thread that only the
 early Guzzi's required a moly additive in the final drive. I don't know the context of what was meant by 'early' though, so I'm unsure if that covered my bike's era, a '95 model. It certainly
says in the manual to add 20mls moly as part of the 250ml total, but I know lubricant technology has probably come a long way since then.

Is there any good info on there being a good case for modern lubricant technology being better, thus avoiding the requirement, or is it just one of those topics with a myriad of varying opinions?

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Ah thanks for that tip, I would have done exactly that

I have universal exhaust shims, one of which is a perfect fit for pressing the new ones in, providing it's strong enough to do so without buckling
 under the pressure.



share image


But from the other end I haven't been able to find something to fit to push/drive it out. The photo somehow shows the visible lip of the outer race
 to be more generous than it appears by eye, but measured with vernier callipers the sleeve's inside end diameter is 32.8mm and the outer race inside diameter there is 31.1mm.

This leaves only 1.7mm total showing, a rim of 0.85mm, which means finding something very precise to be small enough to fit through the rear of
the sleeve, yet big enough to grab the race.




 Is this what you had in mind Charlie, or have I perhaps lost some metal to excessive wear in the bearing.

Is it a complete no, no, to carefully tipetty tap it out with a punch at 12, 6, 3, 9 repeated til necessary?

Also, I assume the bearing should be fully home to the bottom of the sleeve when I refit? There's a gap showing in this photo, but that's probably down to me
 shifting it a bit before the sleeve started to move.

Yes, you can drive it out with a punch. Yes, it should be fully home when installing. An old outer race with the o.d. ground down slightly makes a good improvised driver.

[izzug otom]

Yes, you can drive it out with a punch.

Ah cool 

Yes, it should be fully home when installing. An old outer race with the o.d. ground down slightly makes a good improvised driver.

Ah, of course, and I have the means to do that. Thanks again

A guy, a fellow biker, I know a few house up the street, offered to take me, and my swing arm, to see his mechanic friend who has a local garage with a hydraulic press, and said he can press the carrier bearing in for me, and as a favour to his mate too, the guy up the road. So that's that one sorted out, but first I want to treat the rust in the swing arm drive side, and I'm awaiting some bearing filler adhesive, but anyway, that's one headache resolved 

Time to tackle the u/j crosses next I think 

[Tom H]

No Moly needed with GL-5 gear oil from what I have read.

Tom

[tris]

Ah cool 
Ah, of course, and I have the means to do that. Thanks again

A guy, a fellow biker, I know a few house up the street, offered to take me, and my swing arm, to see his mechanic friend who has a local garage with a hydraulic press, and said he can press the carrier bearing in for me, and as a favour to his mate too, the guy up the road. So that's that one sorted out, but first I want to treat the rust in the swing arm drive side, and I'm awaiting some bearing filler adhesive, but anyway, that's one headache resolved 

Time to tackle the u/j crosses next I think 

I think if you have a mate with a mate who has a hydraulic press, for a case of beer, I think I'd ask him to look at the UJs too 

[izzug otom]

No Moly needed with GL-5 gear oil from what I have read.

Tom

Thanks Tom, I checked that out and it seems obvious that it's correct, thanks.

I realise a problem with my standard approach to researching such things, where I search for "Which type is best" or "do modern lubricants need moly additive in the rear drive box on a Guzzi", and all that does, as a rule, is take you to forum posts with lengthy arguments of conflicting views.

It's frustrating when you're just looking for a definitive answer. I really appreciate geeks, it's all the fake, or would be, geeks that trouble me 

The red n sticky grease from Lucas, that I was intending on getting for lubing the splines etc, is a no go after all. The only supplier advertising it in the UK, from what I can find, state that there are considerable delays due to a fire at the Lucas plant.

So I've gone for a tube of Granville moly grease for CV joints, u/j's etc, and hopefully that'll do the trick. I'll check on how it's fairing after 2k miles or so.

I think if you have a mate with a mate who has a hydraulic press, for a case of beer, I think I'd ask him to look at the UJs too 

Well, call me a sucker for punishment, but I really fancy changing the U/J crosses out myself 

Although it might be an idea to get him to press the U/j into the carrier bearing once it's installed, but again, if I can pick up a tube to sleeve it, I should be able to do it really. I know it's  a tight fit, but not so tight it can't be done without messing the U/j or inner race of the carrier bearing. (Says he  )

I only have a couple of large wood working vices, and I tried pressing them out, with an appropriate socket to fit in the hole, and a larger one on the other side, but man, I couldn't get them to budge a bit. I was kind of concerned I might damage the yokes, I assume they're cast, and worried they might crack.

So I looked on good 'ole youtube for 'stubborn u/j's', and up popped a load of videos on how to deal with them without a press, mostly using the same socket trick and whacking the bejesus out of them with a hammer. Nobody seemed to worry about the yokes breaKing, and thinking about it, they are designed to take a lot of pressure.

So I had a go with the hammer treatment, and got them all shifting a bit in each direction. They're bloody tight though, so gave them a thorough soaking with WD40, and tried again, with not much success.

I feel I must be missing something obvious, though I can't for the life of me figure out what. With a hammer, socket, and some serious force, I've got them moving ok, and I seem to have driven them as far as I can, but it's not enough to push the end I'm hitting through the yoke, and certainly not enough at the other end to grab the opposite cap to pull it off.

The inner cast cross is now up against the yoke, so I can't see how it can be moved any further. Obviously I realise it must be physically possible, hence me feeling I'm missing something.

So I checked youtube again. A lot of those in the videos look in a lot worse state than mine, but when searching for problematic u/j's I see there are pullers for the job, and they need impact drivers to wind them in.

It's not as if mine look much on the corroded side though, they look quite shiney where they've been exposed.

I admit, I lost my composure somewhat today   

I really don't know which applies here "A lesser man would have given up by now" or "A better man would know when he's beat".

Although I'm not against challenge, not much seems to have gone to plan. It always looks so straight forward in how to videos  . Maybe, as above with searching for 'which is the best oil to use' I should adjust my 'how to' video searches to 'problems with doing', or 'worst case scenarios', and then I'd perhaps go at it with a more realistic approach.

I dunno, I'm just a bit down on myself, and my bike at the mo. 

I'll probably take them to the garage mechanic tmro along with the swing arm, and see if he can sort them. I'd be better paying  a  few quid just to save me from going completely nuts, but at the same time it feels a bit like giving in at this stage, stupid as that may be.

It just doesn't seem like the u/j servicing is rocket science, but pretty straight forward, especially compared to the corroded carrier bearing outer race, stuck in a deep recess, unable to actually see what you're doing. That seemed impossible to me at times, but the u/j, I can't actually see or visualise what, and where the problem lies.

My mind is putting a call out to the computational brain "Gumption, calling all gumption, report for duty immediately"

Here's the side I'm pushing through, though I've gone back and forth and applied WD40 each time, followed by the view from the other side






Again of the side I'm hammering it through, showing the distance of travel achieved




But on the other side, as you can see here, it can't physically go any further, as one yoke has met up with the other, which leaves me wondering what more a hydraulic press can do
 



Where am I getting things wrong here guys?

................... ...........

I did at least manage with a punch, to drive the swing arm bearing outer race from its sleeve, but if it was videoed, you'd all be in stitches laughing. You wouldn't believe it, but I score highly in an IQ test, although I've never really accepted an iq test as being an adequate form of rating intelligence, and this a very good example of why that is. When I'd driven the race quite a way without too much struggle after initially getting it going from its tight spot, I was tapping away good clunks on the punch, wondering why the bloody thing wouldn't drop out . . . until it dawned on me that it had gone as far as the surface I had the sleeve placed upon, and couldn't come out unless I gave it space to drop out beneath . . . Really, ffs!!    Hey and don't feel bad for laughing at me, I was laughing at myself      When you can't be a source of inspiration, being a source of humour is no bad thing 





So you can see what you're working with in attempting to help me out here, hahaha, hopefully though, like me, some of you like a challenge 

It's quite grotty in there, so I'll use the wire brush on the dremel tool, and some rust remover, and a thin smear of grease all around it before fitting it back into the frame and pressing the new bearing in.

[izzug otom]

Ok, so I lied when I said I only had a couple of large woodworking vices 

[Tom H]

Yes I was LMAO at some of your comments Your doing VERY good Don't be down on yourself. Your doing the right thing. Try to figure it out,
if you can't, ask questions!

Now for the cross hitting the joint. In the foggy area of my brain, I seem to remember this is an issue of getting the U joints out.
Many moons ago I think I tried and had the same issue.

I also seem to remember that you would either, grab the sticking out cap in a vice and carefully whack away, twist it until it came out. OR.. drill a
hole in the cap and thread it or self taping screw and use a puller or the vice.

Maybe Charlie had the solution for this??

You could also try a small punch from the inside to get the cap to come out. Provided that you have it held so the cap will come out, like with a
socket, not laying flat on the table. 

Tom

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I also seem to remember that you would either, grab the sticking out cap in a vice and carefully whack away, twist it until it came out. OR.. drill a
hole in the cap and thread it or self taping screw and use a puller or the vice.

Maybe Charlie had the solution for this??

That's what I do.

[Tom H]

Thanks Charlie

Tom

[izzug otom]

You could also try a small punch from the inside to get the cap to come out. Provided that you have it held so the cap will come out, like with a
socket, not laying flat on the table. 

Tom

Wah-ha-ha, no, I'd hope that one is in the bag now 

Now for the cross hitting the joint. In the foggy area of my brain, I seem to remember this is an issue of getting the U joints out.
Many moons ago I think I tried and had the same issue.

I also seem to remember that you would either, grab the sticking out cap in a vice and carefully whack away, twist it until it came out. OR.. drill a
hole in the cap and thread it or self taping screw and use a puller or the vice.

Tom

That's what I do.

Thanks guys, and thanks for the encouragement Tom, although mmm  . . . . maybe you are just thinking "this'll be good for a laugh"   

I'd seen the vice and tapping with the hammer technique on Gregor bender's site, but I thought I'd need more to grab on to have any chance of pulling them out.

Even with the reasonable precision of my little jeweler's anvil vice, there was little to grip onto, and bashing it , pulling and twisting by hand would see it lose its grip.

Of course, not having the vice fixed to a bench doesn't help any, and maybe sharp but not heavy taps with a hammer when it's fixed rigidly, would do the trick here.

If not, I'll give the largest self tapper I can find at a local hardware store a try, as you suggest.

................... .......

I've only just discovered this. It's so far in the recess, and my eyes are not that great close up, and only noticed by taking a photo an examining it.

I've heard of the u/j spinning on the internal race before, but this one has been spinning the outer race, and the scoring looks really quite bad to me.




Although, at least it's not as bad as the carnage I caused with the cut off discs  , but at least that's in just the one area.




The outer race that I removed looked relatively smooth to my close up vision and to my guitar playing callused fingertips, but again with the benefit of closer photographic inspection (how did we ever manage without mobile phones).




It's definitely done some spinning. I can't imagine how much load it must've been under to spin around like that, the bearing was a super tight fit when it came to removing it. Maybe it jammed it all up as the bearing gave in, before spitting all it's ball bearings out?





I know it's not easy via photographs, but can you tell if this is still actually going to be serviceable?

Seeing the state of it has worried me, because of course, I won't be able to inspect it until next I pull the swing arm again, and even then, it'd probably be difficult to

I have bought some Loctite 641 bearing set retainer, but wondering if I'm expecting too much of the swing arm housing's mating surface condition and the retainer glue, or whether, so long as the bearing is a tight fit and functioning in good order, and no water gets in there etc, that it will stick to its path of least resistance and run on the ball bearings as designed?

Sorry to be such a pain in the ass guys

[izzug otom]

Just thinking out loud here really, but you can see in the first of the photos in the last post, that the circlip groove looks like it's going to need some work to be persuaded to accept the new one. I wonder if it might be worth thinking about doing the retaining set screw mod, as per later models may be a better option. That'll no doubt require a bench drill and a welder, and I guess that'd need to be done before the bearing is fitted in place.

Well, I'm going to the workshop in 4 hours or so, so I'd better see if I can clean the circlip groove out first, as metal grindings after the bearing is pressed in aren't going to be a good thing.

Nobody ever said life would be straight forward

[Mike Tashjian]

Beating the cross back and forth a couple of times usually lets you get a grip on the cap and pull it out.  Without a shop and tools you are still ahead of most people at this point.  Once you get everything apart the next big bridge to cross will be getting the new cross bearing caps in without displacing the needle bearing as you tap the caps in.   I use a press and hedge by pushing the first cap in as far as possible with the new cross in. When you do the other side this way the cross can engage the other cap a bit to hold all the needle bearing in place.  Once the second cap is engaged and pressed on the cross, the three pieces can be centered.  If the circlip groove is damaged washers can be fitted over the caps and tack welded.  It's a procedure used on BMW staked original joints that are serviced. 

[n3303j]

I'm redoing U-Joints on the Ural. Stumbled across this video.
Thought it rather neat and somewhat applicable to your project.
What I most enjoyed was the "no nonsense" and workman like manner in which it progresses.
No fluff, just getting it done.

https://youtu.be/QnI45lwHXAs?feature=shared

[izzug otom]

Beating the cross back and forth a couple of times usually lets you get a grip on the cap and pull it out.  Without a shop and tools you are still ahead of most people at this point.  Once you get everything apart the next big bridge to cross will be getting the new cross bearing caps in without displacing the needle bearing as you tap the caps in.   I use a press and hedge by pushing the first cap in as far as possible with the new cross in. When you do the other side this way the cross can engage the other cap a bit to hold all the needle bearing in place.  Once the second cap is engaged and pressed on the cross, the three pieces can be centered.  If the circlip groove is damaged washers can be fitted over the caps and tack welded.  It's a procedure used on BMW staked original joints that are serviced.

Thanks for the supportive encouragement Mike, it does go a long way, and for your suggestions and words of advice.

I'm redoing U-Joints on the Ural. Stumbled across this video.
Thought it rather neat and somewhat applicable to your project.
What I most enjoyed was the "no nonsense" and workman like manner in which it progresses.
No fluff, just getting it done.

https://youtu.be/QnI45lwHXAs?feature=shared

Haha, I wouldn't get too carried away with his technique, where he's tapping the yoke with a hammer in one hand, whilst the cap just pops out into his hand. I imagine that's a bit of a magic trick from the trade, and a good one at that, he even flips his circlip plyers like a gunslinger would his six shooter, but he is doing all that with u/j's that haven't seen any service. To imagine that's going to happen with any drive that's done some service, is a bridge too far.

I think a lot of the videos of bigger u'j's off chevvies or jeeps etc, although they look bigger and tougher, they look considerably easier than the small ones such as on the Guzzi, there's more room to play with and they always seem to get enough of the caps come through to get a really good hold on with something.

I don't know the Ural set up, but if it's a serious struggle, after my experience today, I'd highly recommend the use of an angle grinder . . . read on   


I've had an amazingly productive day 

I gave the swing arm carrier bearing seating a good wire brushing with a rotary tool brass brush and it came up looking and feeling a lot more respectable than it did. . . . . Which is just as well, as I managed to forget to use the loctite bearing retaining compound, doh! Yep, I fudging did!

We went to my mate's friends workshop, but he was having the day off, but the guys said we could use their press and tools if we could manage it ourselves.

It was a good experience to use a good quality, floor standing, hydraulic press. What a piece of kit! Anyway, in all the excitement, figuring out how to use it, and tracking down a perfect fit socket amongst a huge array of tool trays and cabinets, I managed to simply forget about using the loctite, until it was more than three quarters pressed in place, and then a mini sonic boom as the bearing seated fully home.




It's fairly typical of someone with adhd, and many other neurodivergent types. So many thoughts are jumping around all at once, some of them get lost in the distraction. They always tend to come back to mind, but not very helpful when too late.  It's no excuse though, I'm old enough to realise that writing down a list of what I'm doing would ensure that doesn't happen, but of course, I simply forget to do that too 

The bearing seemed like a positive good tight fit though, so i'm assuming if all else is working properly, then it should operate and function as designed.  . . Blimey, it that doesn't show how much difference a positive, or negative day, can affect how you perceive things.

The workshop had a great pair of heavy duty circlip pliers that made light work of handling the meaty carrier bearing circlip, and more to the point, it slotted and snapped into place perfectly.

So that's the carrier bearing sorted. We had a go at the u/j crosses on the press too, but sure enough, they had already gone to the full possible extent of their travel.

One of the guys took a very quick look, but was so busy, I didn't want to take advantage of their hospitality, so left it at that. Marcin, my Polish mate up the road, drove us back home, and I was feeling well chuffed.

45 minutes later, he's ringing me. He said "I'm at your door, there'd something I need to see. I went down, let him in. His mind had been whirring away, and couldn't stop thinking about the puzzle of getting the crosses out of the U/j.

Next minute I said I'd seen a vid where they chiselled them off the end. So we both gave it a go. Eventually, it did work, but the thought of doing another seven of those, pounding away with a hammer and chisel, in the summer heat, really didn't appeal to either of us.

Marcin said, why don't we cut the little f*****'s out. I said with what? There's no way the dremel could get in there. He said I have some tools at home, come, bring them over. I was feeling knackered, but he's a really good guy, and I recognise that compulsive urge to solve a problem, and that is a mighty force to have onside, I wasn't going to turn my nose up at his offer, two minds are often better than one.

Half hour later and we're out back at his place, with a selection of tools, including a good angle grinder.

It wasn't easy to get in the first one, and there was lots more hammering, and swearing, in English and Polish, but eventually we got one of the yoke off the centre fixing. We'd got the technique down, and then whipped through the rest of them. We even cut directly through a curiosity just to see what they're like inside 

Wow, so I've got the u/j disassembled now too. I'm hoping assembly won't present so many problems. . . . We'll see.

I'm close to rebuilding the bike, I can feel it, build the uj's, push and shove the swing arm roller bearings, and wheel bearings, lube all the splines and surfaces with moly grease.

I marked the uj pieces in case it needs to go back together the same way, but it looks like it'll work, whichever way up or around they'tre arranged.

I've heard about driveshafts needing balancing, is this any issue with stock Guzzi driveshaft arrangements?

 Thanks to all that have helped and encouraged me here, I think WE'RE getting somewhere, after all, I haven't been doing this work alone have I?   

One cap removed by chiselling at the edge at different spots. Lot's of hammering 




. . . . And then 




The swing arm bearing sleeve on the non drive side is pressed back in place awaiting the bearing, which along with the others, are sat in my freezer. As I'd done with the carrier bearing prior to heading to the w/shop. Hopefully it'll make for easier bearing installation, especially whilst air temps are fairly high I guess.




I might get somewhere with some stuff tmro, but then have a couple of busy days, so hopefully I'll be putting the bike back together  early/mid next week 

[Tom H]

 

Tom

[Stretch]

This is GREAT!

What an installment series. 

Nearly as good as, "Long Way Round."

Kudos to you for keeping at it - it's all gonna go back together just
fine. Hardest - and filthiest - part's done!

                                                 -Stretch

[izzug otom]

Thank you Tom, and Stretch 

Yes, I feel confident I've dealt with the real problematic parts of this work, and hoping the rebuilding, with every bearing on the back end replaced, is going to be quite a pleasure. Unfortunately, I won't get the chance until Tuesday or Wednesday.

I've been thinking though . . .

Would a stout fizzy drink bottle, cut to length, and with a cut made along the length, so it can overlap itself, so as the diameter can be adjusted, be suffice for keeping the U/J straight whilst fitting into the carrier bearing.

If so I could wrap it around the u/j and tape it off at the correct diameter. An added advantage would be that I could see that it's straight during the procedure.

I'd found a 150mm length, 56mm i/d, 60mm o/d, clear perspex piping on Amazon for £10, and thinking 'bloody hell, a tenner for a short length of plastic pipe, and as I took a drink from a fizzy drink bottle, I wondered Mmmm ...

I can't see a flaw in the plan, but as they say "God laughs at those who make plans"    . . . . I've never done one before, so not sure how desperately the u/j will want to move under pressure.

Any thoughts from those experienced in this task? 

Cheers, Martizzug 

Ps. Oh and this is a pic of the carrier bearing mount in the swing arm after a light brass brushing with the rotary tool. You can see the grooves, but the majority of the surface is good. Wish I'd used that bearing retaining compound though. I can't even find it now 

[Tom H]

I'm sure I will be flamed for this... But to heck with it. Only been working on my own for 42 years. Well before message board info. I only had the Chilton manual for guidance.

When I needed a new U joint many, many, many moons ago. Before I understood it's supposed to be a press fit. I sanded down the U joint so that I could just ""TAP"" it into the carrier bearing.

Now as far as my sometimes foggy brain can remember. I think I may have changed a carrier bearing a time or two in the 25-30 + years since I did this. But IIRR the U joint has been the same.

Wish I would have kept better records back then. I rode my Eldo for way too many years and still do, but the Ambo not so much. I'm pretty darn sure my fix was with the Eldo.

Sooo.... Take this post how you may.

If you really want it stock press fit, Benders site IIRR has info on the tool and you might want to consult that shop with the press.

Just my 2 cents,
Tom

An EDIT FWIW: I have recently worked on a few bikes that a friend wanted help with. So far....the U Joints have slid out of the carrier bearing firmly but easily. No tapping or hammering needed. A few had carriers that were not good, but not frozen and they were replaced. Some had perfectly smooth but firm feel like new carriers. Sooo...I don't think the U joint was ground down by spinning in the carrier.

[jacksonracingcomau]

Just thinking out loud here really, but you can see in the first of the photos in the last post, that the circlip groove looks like it's going to need some work to be persuaded to accept the new one. I wonder if it might be worth thinking about doing the retaining set screw mod, as per later models may be a better option. That'll no doubt require a bench drill and a welder, and I guess that'd need to be done before the bearing is fitted in place.

I would, while it’s in bits
I did it a good few years back, only changed one uj/ bearing since but makes it a complete doddle, you fit bearing to uj first then fit assembly in swinging arm together.
Beats the old way hands down, grub screws secure bearing tight, uj should never spin in bearing again.

[izzug otom]

I'm sure I will be flamed for this... But to heck with it. Only been working on my own for 42 years. Well before message board info. I only had the Chilton manual for guidance.

When I needed a new U joint many, many, many moons ago. Before I understood it's supposed to be a press fit. I sanded down the U joint so that I could just ""TAP"" it into the carrier bearing.

Now as far as my sometimes foggy brain can remember. I think I may have changed a carrier bearing a time or two in the 25-30 + years since I did this. But IIRR the U joint has been the same.

Wish I would have kept better records back then. I rode my Eldo for way too many years and still do, but the Ambo not so much. I'm pretty darn sure my fix was with the Eldo.

Sooo.... Take this post how you may.

If you really want it stock press fit, Benders site IIRR has info on the tool and you might want to consult that shop with the press.

Just my 2 cents,
Tom

An EDIT FWIW: I have recently worked on a few bikes that a friend wanted help with. So far....the U Joints have slid out of the carrier bearing firmly but easily. No tapping or hammering needed. A few had carriers that were not good, but not frozen and they were replaced. Some had perfectly smooth but firm feel like new carriers. Sooo...I don't think the U joint was ground down by spinning in the carrier.

Thanks Tom, I don't reckon you seem the type that'd be overly concerned about a lil bit of flaming  

I've heard of a few people that have made the uj easier fit into the carrier bearing. I'm not sure how mine will be yet, but the inner race had to be cut off my uj, so will see before long. I'm pretty sure I could use the press at the w/shop if necessary, I need to take some beers but they wouldn't accept any payment  . I'll see how the fit feels once I've fitted the uj crosses and placing the uj in the freezer overnight

 "Sooo...I don't think the U joint was ground down by spinning in the carrier". I realise the uj couldn't be ground down as it wouldn't achieve that much movement. The place where mine did make contact with the Swing arm housing though, was directly on the lip that retains the circlip, and it hammered it out from a square shoulder to a 45 degree chamfer, thus grimly jamming the circlip firmly in place.

 This wasn't due to the uj spinning in the bearing though, but down to the carrier bearing's complete collapse, having spat out its rusty ball bearings.

The home made tool made as shown on the Gregory Bender site, is for an earlier style UJ than that on a mid 90's Cali, though the principal would be similar. I wonder if the plastic sleeve need to be as thick and stout as that example. I kind of have it in my head, that if you multi-wrapped up the whole uj in a straight position, in lots gaffa tape, it'd perhaps be good enough, as unless I'm mistaken, all that's required, is keeping it straight so that whatever force is pushing the uj into the bearing, is being applied directly inline.

 Of course, I realise I may be well off the mark though, I have no experience to go on, and just trying to think it through and figure something out. Lucozade 900ml bottles a are fairly stout as pop bottles go.

When I mentioned the Guzzi stock d/shaft arrangement, it was regarding as to whether drive shaft balancing is anything I need to be concerned about.

[izzug otom]

This shows more clearly what I mean by the uj flailing about enough due to a complete collapse between the inner and outer races of the carrier bearing Tom.

You can see here, from about 10 to, to 20 past, the circlip retaining lip has been well and truly hammered onto the circlip. The opposite side from 20 past to 10 to, is how it should be, a squared shoulder.




I figure this damage was done on the short, under one mile, 15-20mph ride back on hearing the clanking sound of what I assume was the bearing losing its rusty ball bearings.

I didn't realise that this edge was jamming the circlip in place, and wrestled with it thinking it was just seized, and wow it took a hell of a lot to force it into submission.

If anyone struggling to remove this circlip in the future, happens to be looking at this thread, if it's been hammered in as above, it'd have been much easier if I'd have run a dremel tool around the edge where it was jammed against the clip. . . . It needs paring back anyway, to allow the old bearing race to come out, and the new bearing to be pressed in. I wish I'd have realised, it would have saved me a real nasty job removing that circlip.

[izzug otom]

As usual, I'm trying to run before I can walk when asking about hooking the uj up to the carrier bearing. I can't for the life of me get the first cross to fit in the first yoke, it just doesn't seem physically possible.

I have the circlip in on one side, but can't push the other side through to even begin to see the circlip groove on the other side. The old circlips don't seem any thinner than the new ones. I don't know if the extra .2mm length is enough to give the problem. I'm pretty sure no needles are lent over, as the cross ran fine until I tried to push the second end in enough to fit the circlip. It then jams up. If I give the yoke a sharp tap on the ends, it comes free again, but not very smooth.

I'm losing the will to live here right now.

It seems to me that the 49mm crosses would perhaps be a lot easier then the 50.2mm ones I'm trying to fit here. However, I dare say that's down to me fkn something up, as others seem to manage with the 50.2mm crosses.

On one occasion I was tapping the second side in until the circlip came out from the other side. I can't believe it's so difficult. I've watched so many videos on swapping out the crosses, and all of them seem to have plenty of room to push the end caps out on removal, and no struggle to drive the crosses into the caps to fit the circlips at each end. They shouldn't be really tight to fit, from what I can see, and it just doesn't feel right somehow.

I really don't know what to do now 

[Mike Tashjian]

1.2 mm is the thickness of two matchbook covers.  If the old one was tight you may have an issue. Can you measure the yoke and new joint to compare?  One thing you can do is compare how far in the cross sits in the new cap.  If by chance a roller has fallen over this would be a visible indicator.  Newly fitted crosses can seem very tight with fresh grease and new seals. Another thought is the yoke could have been bent a slight bit when the bearing let loose or when trying to remove the crosses in the vice. That might misalign the holes and bearing caps as they are assembled.  Finding a rod the cap size would would show if the holes line up.  I know your working in your yard but you may need a little more help here for the final fitting of new parts.

[izzug otom]

Sorry, I'm spitting my dummy out, but of course it's my fault.

 So it seems I may have a needle or two laid over after all.

I noticed the seal on one side doesn't compress when the cross is shoved right into that side. Whereas when the cross is pushed into the other side the seal can really be compressed, and you can feel it through your fingers, like a bit of shock absorption in the seal, unlike the side that doesn't compress, which feels like it hits hard surface against hard surface and stops dead, no shock absorption.

So I checked the other new cross, just to check I'm not going nuts, and it one of the seals wouldn't compress. At first I thought it must be how it's supposed to be then, but quickly realised that made no sense whatsoever. I removed the cap of the offending end, and a single needle was lying flat in the end of the cap. It looked exactly the same difference re the lack of compression as the one I've tried fitting. I know I checked to make sure they were all stood up in place before offering up to fit, but I found that even then, I was working blind in the sense that it needed some good taps to get it going, so I presume one or more fell over in the process somewhere, and of course, unnoticed until I'd got the cap home and found it wasn't close to accepting a circlip on that side.

So now I'm in the same position I was in when I was trying to dismantle  the uj.

You can see in the pic that one side's seal isn't compressed.


 

And here I've driven that end back out as far as I can, but it's tight as hell, and I can't remove the cap to sort the issue out. I've tried grabbing the cap with plumber's grips, and with the small jeweler's vice, but I just can't budge it. I'd deburred all edges and cleaned the inside sleeve thoroughly with a soft fabric polishing wheel on the dremel, so there's no jagged burrs etc affecting things.




Mild panic set in, so I checked the size and condition of the old caps from the old crosses, which look to be the same length, though I'd have to clean one thoroughly and check the diameter, and condition, of the bore too, in case I have to resort to the drastic ,measure of taking it off with a hammer and chisel. Hammer and chisel would take the cap off, there's a bit more cap showing than the original one I got off with hammer and chisel when dismantling the original one.

I'm cursing a bit, as the condition of the original uj crosses wasn't bad at all. You could see very slight needle marks on the posts, but none of them were trashed. I know I wouldn't have felt that comfortable risking the old one though, but now I understand the crosses better having seen how they work internally with my own eyes, I would have probably have cleaned it up and re-used it.

I don't regret buying new crosses though, but I'm now not feeling too comfortable about the way I'm performing here, building the new one.

 Ive got to try and think a way to remove the cap without damaging it if I possibly can though, it seems ridiculous to be taking a hammer and chisel to the new one 

I feel like a flaming idiot  , yet still struggling to see where exactly, I went wrong.  I am sure it shouldn't be a hit n miss affair though.

 Once again, apologies for spitting my dummy out 

[izzug otom]

1.2 mm is the thickness of two matchbook covers.  If the old one was tight you may have an issue. Can you measure the yoke and new joint to compare?  One thing you can do is compare how far in the cross sits in the new cap.  If by chance a roller has fallen over this would be a visible indicator.  Newly fitted crosses can seem very tight with fresh grease and new seals. Another thought is the yoke could have been bent a slight bit when the bearing let loose or when trying to remove the crosses in the vice. That might misalign the holes and bearing caps as they are assembled.  Finding a rod the cap size would would show if the holes line up.  I know your working in your yard but you may need a little more help here for the final fitting of new parts.

Thanks Mike, as you can see, we were cross posting. I think it is a fallen roller  Now with cap stuck tight, doh...

[izzug otom]

Thanks for the different lines to follow Mike.

I can access the hydraulic press again to install the uj in the carrier bearing if necessary.

I figured the uj should be doable, but I beginning to think I can be a bit over optimistic, but even now, I still feel I should be able to do that job. . . . I'm flipping stubborn too you see 

I don't think the yoke is bent, I didn't use a vice and heavy hammering to remove the crosses, I cut the buggers out with an angle grinder. They weren't in bad shape internally, so I doubt the carrier bearing collapse did enough to bend the yoke either. I could be wrong though of course.

I did pass a bar through when checking for any missed burrs, and although it wasn't exactly the same diameter all the way through, one end was, and the holes looked in line to me.

I'm pretty certain it a needle gone over, looking at the seal not compressing, and I'd hazard a guess that it would account for the exact difference needed to get the second circlip groove exposed 

[Tom H]

In the pics, the cap on the  RH side looks to be sticking out a bit. Looks like you should be able to grab it with a good bench mounted vise and tap and twist until it comes out. Maybe your press shop has one.

Also, hammering in end caps can lead to a roller/needle falling out of place. Been there. Use the press at the shop to push the caps in, or even use a vise to squeeze them in.

Your doing very well. Be glad you have a place to ask questions and get very good answers. Many had to learn the hard way without any help.

Tom

[Mike Tashjian]

That is going to be hard to grab if it's that tight.  I have a 5C collet that can match the size of a round bar or cap within .015 of an inch.  In a fixture that can be tightened down pretty tight, you can then twist and pry a bit without breaking the cap.  Unfortunately you need a machine shop that will give you a minute. I might take some emery cloth to the yokes to make it just a little easier to install the rest of caps.  The circlip should do the majority of the work holding them together.