U/J Carrier bearing collapse

[tris]

Just a thought
If you take the caps off the side of the cross that isn't in the yoke yet, that might buy you a few more mm to grab hold off.
Secondly I think that you had a metal vice in one of the earlier replies.
If you were to bolt it to a block of wood couldn't you hold it in your woodworkers bench vice.
At a push a big G cramp in the woodworkers bench vice might help
Steady pressure via a vice/cramp will make this more controllable IMO
Keep plugging away though 

[Mike Tashjian]

Another thought if you have no real tools.  If the new cross is drilled for grease, how about filling the cup with water holding the cross out as far as possible and then freezing the whole lot.  Push out the cap clean things up well and start over.

[tris]

Another thought if you have no real tools.  If the new cross is drilled for grease, how about filling the cup with water holding the cross out as far as possible and then freezing the whole lot.  Push out the cap clean things up well and start over.

That's cunning Mike 

[izzug otom]

In the pics, the cap on the  RH side looks to be sticking out a bit. Looks like you should be able to grab it with a good bench mounted vise and tap and twist until it comes out. Maybe your press shop has one.

Also, hammering in end caps can lead to a roller/needle falling out of place. Been there. Use the press at the shop to push the caps in, or even use a vise to squeeze them in.

Your doing very well. Be glad you have a place to ask questions and get very good answers. Many had to learn the hard way without any help.

Tom

Thanks Tom, be glad? I honestly have no idea how I'd manage without the generous help from people here at Wild Guzzi, your good self included. I wish we could all teleport to a bike friendly pub/bar so I could buy a round of beers. I do intend making a donation to the site in a week or two though, when I have some funds coming in. It won't be ever so much, as I don't have very much, but I would like to contribute. There's a lot of dedication put in here, and my respect, admiration, awe and appreciation for folks good will and incredible depth of knowledge, has serious depth. 

As Pirsig said in Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance  "“'This divorce of art from technology is completely unnatural. It's just that it's gone on so long you have to be an archaeologist to find out where the two separated." . . . . you're all artists in my book

I hope I haven't come across as anything other than respectful, and grateful, and I hope me spitting my dummy out wasn't taken as spitting it out at the community here, god forbid 

funnily enough, I've just purchased a 19 by 7 inch very heavy old quick release vice for £20, I'll hopefully collect it today if I can grab a lift from a friend. I've definitely found I really need a vice. I'll try that for removing the cap first, and ifd it works out, I'll try it for pressing them in.

I've also got a huge well built bench too, you could easily fit a Guzzi on there with plenty of space all around it. God knows how you'd get it up there though  . I can't access it yet, but may well sort a workshop in my back room this winter  It's a big room, and I have a wide front door to ride my bike in.

[izzug otom]

That is going to be hard to grab if it's that tight.  I have a 5C collet that can match the size of a round bar or cap within .015 of an inch.  In a fixture that can be tightened down pretty tight, you can then twist and pry a bit without breaking the cap.  Unfortunately you need a machine shop that will give you a minute. I might take some emery cloth to the yokes to make it just a little easier to install the rest of caps.  The circlip should do the majority of the work holding them together.

The 5C collet sounds like a good idea if I can't sort it myself. Hopefully I'll pick up a large heavy vice this evening which may resolve the end cap, and allow me to press the crosses in too. I think the emery cloth is a good idea too, as they're all a very tight squeeze.

And this
"Another thought if you have no real tools.  If the new cross is drilled for grease, how about filling the cup with water holding the cross out as far as possible and then freezing the whole lot.  Push out the cap clean things up well and start over."

As Tris said, very cunning indeed. I love your creative thinking, both with the collet and the ice    There are plenty of engineering shops nearby dso the collet idea may be possible if needed.

The crosses, don't have grease nipples, but they have grease channels running to the centre. I don't know if the water would pass the grease that's already in there, but it might work.

If I'm lucky the new, old vice will be suffice to grab the cap firmly enough for me to tap the yoke and free it off. I'll let you know how I get on in a few hours.

Thanks for the excellent input Mike 

[izzug otom]

Just a thought
If you take the caps off the side of the cross that isn't in the yoke yet, that might buy you a few more mm to grab hold off.
Secondly I think that you had a metal vice in one of the earlier replies.
If you were to bolt it to a block of wood couldn't you hold it in your woodworkers bench vice.
At a push a big G cramp in the woodworkers bench vice might help
Steady pressure via a vice/cramp will make this more controllable IMO
Keep plugging away though 

Thanks Tris 

The little steel vice is just a tiny jeweler's vice, but I pick up a big heavy vice later this eve 

"Just a thought
If you take the caps off the side of the cross that isn't in the yoke yet, that might buy you a few more mm to grab hold off."

Yes, a damn good thought at that, very well spotted. I think you're right, it may just offer a mm or two before the central block meets the yoke, once the other two caps are removed.

I'm both impressed and humbled by the ideas generated by you guys here, very inspiring 

[izzug otom]

I managed to pick up the vice. It's a monster, a Parkinson No7, weighing in at 61lbs, and the mechanism is perfect. With the quick release it glides surprisingly smoothly, the winding gear is spot on with no sloppy play, the jaw mating surfaces are both ok and it a long winding handle to easily apply pressure.

 I'm well pleased with it, especially for just £20. Researching the vice online, it looks to be pre 1930's, and the average going price for this model is around £100, ranging from £75 to a staggeringly unrealistic £280, but plenty of prices between £100-£180, so I seem to have got myself a real bargain.

It was advertised on facecrack mkt place, and could see it was a good solid vice, and was assured it was very heavy and in perfect working order. The weight of this vice was part of the appeal as it will be sturdy enough for many jobs without being attached to a bench

I've always had a fondness for antiquities, and generally speaking, when it comes to things like furniture, tools etc, a lot of old functional items are much better made than the modern day equivalents.

Mmm ... I know, it's only a vice, but I'm easily excited 

All I need is Mummy vice for the set




I tried clamping the uj cross cap in it and tapped the yoke with a light hammer, but it pulled it out of the jaws each time. it was reasonably tight, but I could clamp it a lot tighter, but I'm worried about damaging the cap.

I've no experience, as you know, with uj's, and not sure how tight I can afford to go. Obviously, they're fairly tough, just to be able to stand the load they bear, but as you might imagine, it's all a bit of an unknown to me.

So later today I'll put one of the old ones back on an old post, complete with needles, and try and apply pressure until it does cause damage, so that I have an idea how far I can push things.

If I can't shift it, I'll try and get down to a local engineering firm and see what they suggest, or ask them to try the 5C collet, as Mike suggested.

It does seem ridiculously tight, but then again, if most people are using presses to install them, I guess they're going to be pretty tight too. Again, the lack of experience leaves me with no sense of a norm, but it's difficult for anyone to try and describe how tight the fit is, or how much pressure I can apply to the cap, I think that's beyond the scope of language, unless some sort of standardised arrangement for measuring the torque . . . Uhm?     No, the only way is for me to gain the experience and try and be sensible whilst keeping my fingers crossed

 They certainly took some hard taps with a good sized hammer to get them home. At least if I end up at an engineers, they'd hopefully have an appropriate diameter bar to pass through the eyes in the yokes, again, as Mike suggested, just to be sure they are true and not putting things under undue strain.

[tris]

....... The weight of this vice was part of the appeal as it will be sturdy enough for many jobs without being attached to a bench......

Be careful.
If its on a bench when you're yanking stuff around and comes off because its not bolted down that could really ruin your day!

How much is enough/not enough is a tricky thing to learn, but start light handed and choke down on the handle

If you use the full length of the handle you can get a tremendous pressure with a vice of that size

[izzug otom]

Be careful.
If its on a bench when you're yanking stuff around and comes off because its not bolted down that could really ruin your day!

How much is enough/not enough is a tricky thing to learn, but start light handed and choke down on the handle

If you use the full length of the handle you can get a tremendous pressure with a vice of that size

Thanks Tris, yes no worries, it'll live on the floor level until I get the bench sorted, and then it'll definitely be bolted down. If that thing landed on your foot from bench height, you'd need a whole new foot I reckon.

The amount of cap sticking out to grab hold of is not as it might seem. Where the lowest point of the yoke, it looks not bad, but other areas of the yoke that are higher and have less cap showing , is the maximum amount of cap that's possible for the vice to grip onto as the higher parts prevent them getting further down, even though it's exposed to the eye.

I think I'll take a walk to a local engineering shop a bit later on if I can't shift it with another attempt.

Tricky to learn. Yes for sure, but I've got a reasonable sense for how much pressure to apply for most things I'd get in there, I used similar size vices at both the coal board and when I worked a few years on the farm. It was a long time ago, but the feel of it was just like it was yesterday.

That's why I'm very wary of applying too much pressure on the cap, it's more the cap that I don't know the strength of, and quite sure I could easily damage it if I hang on and heave away at the end of that bar handle.

It is indeed a very powerful vice, but I see that as a good thing, as I do the weight. My thinking was whilst benchless, I can clamp something up and work on it without much fear of it moving, within reason of course. It should hopefully work as a good, easy to control, press for fitting the uj crosses 

[Mike Tashjian]

A large vise is a nice addition.  Now maybe try making a fixture or two to make it work a bit harder for you.  Maybe take a piece of aluminum(1/2 inch or thicker) and drill a hole as close to the size of the u joint cap.  Cut a slot to the hole so you can fit the cap in and then squeeze it with the vise.  The aluminum should not deform the cap easily so you should get some good pressure. 

[izzug otom]

I would, while it’s in bits
I did it a good few years back, only changed one uj/ bearing since but makes it a complete doddle, you fit bearing to uj first then fit assembly in swinging arm together.
Beats the old way hands down, grub screws secure bearing tight, uj should never spin in bearing again.

Blimey, I'm so sorry mate, I don't think I responded to you here, but I managed to get the bearing pressed in and circlip fitted perfectly.

It's definitely something I'm marking in my to do list, the next time I have call to remove the swing arm. It seems like it would make the job easier. Having said that, I'm going to be sure not to let things get in that state again.

I get it that it'd prevent the outer race spinning in the swing arm, which mine had done, but how does it help prevent the u/j spinning in the inner race? .. Not that I had that problem, I had to cut that race off the uj yoke.

Where exactly do you add the screws, are they at an angle, or directly into the outer edge of the bearing?

Cheers 

[izzug otom]

A large vise is a nice addition.  Now maybe try making a fixture or two to make it work a bit harder for you.  Maybe take a piece of aluminum(1/2 inch or thicker) and drill a hole as close to the size of the u joint cap.  Cut a slot to the hole so you can fit the cap in and then squeeze it with the vise.  The aluminum should not deform the cap easily so you should get some good pressure.

Yes, it's a beaut of a vice. I look fwd to cleaning it up and bringing that back to the steel, but not til I've got my bike priorities good and sorted 

That's another cool idea with the aluminium Mike. I don't even know where you'd buy metals in my city, but there will be places for sure.

I've dealt with the offending cap quite crudely in the end 

It was a right struggle. I'd hammered on a piece of wood on the two unconnected posts away from the end with the fallen needles, thinking It might some how give me better access, but it didn't. I couldn't get the other end cap to move further, without drifting it with the other cap, which would do nothing for me but jam the offending one back in.




My mate up the road came over, and we both tried to free it. He's a big strong bloke, and despite being quite wirey, I have a lot of arm/shoulder strength, life of guitar playing, and hanging on to handle bars perhaps, but we couldn't make it budge with four arms, and a strong vice.

I checked the old crosses, they have the same B 50 markings on the cast centre, although different mold, ut I assume the same spec. I used a vernier gauge and measured the post diameters and length, and they're exactly the same. I have a few of the old caps and they're in pretty good order, so I've got one soaking in white/mineral spirits to degrease, then I'll brass wire brush it and grease it up and load with rollers.




So, secure in that knowledge I decided to chisel the stuck one off, and wow did it take some hammering and chiseling, but no damage caused other than to the offending cap. I know it's crude, but it was effective. i'd gone to the local engineer shop first, they usually finish around 3.30 to 4pm on Fridays, but for whatever reason, the place was closed by noon'ish

Then, I had a go at fitting another cap and used the big vice to smoothly press it into place.




It easn't exactly "Bingo" though, the circlips were mofo's to get in place, and after pressing in a bit more, maybe more than I should have, and managed to man handle them in. However, the cross was seriously, horribly stiff. I tried freeing them off with the taps to the yokes around the caps method, and although it helped a fraction, I kinda knew I'd got things jammed too tight by getting thr clips in place. They are quite thick circlips, as can be seen here.




Charlie had said that he's had to save the old clips because the ones with the new crosses were too thick, and it's mentioned on Greg Bender's site about using an angle/bench grinder to thin the circlips down in the 50.2mm crosses now used, that are a Kawasaki part spec, whereas original Guzzi ones were 50mm, so maybe the .2mm is the issue, or that in combination with thicker circlips. but oddly enough, I can't see any difference thickness  between the old and new ones . . . I've been scratching my head over that.

Anyway, I borrowed my mate's angle grinder and set about thinning some circlips. The first one I tried, snapped when I attempted to fit it, so I'd probably gone a bit too thin in one point, where it snapped. So tried again, being more careful, although the angle grinder is a powerful one, and I don't think it was built for finesse, However, I managed ok, got them fitted. Then tapped the unconnected posts with a piece of wood for protection to the post surfaces again, and drove the caps out to push up to the thinner circlips.

Now it was "Bingo", with a couple of taps to the yoke it became free and smooth as it should be 




I'm going to try and do the rest of them later today.

I'm loving your input, the way you apply your mind to these matters Mike, you definitely remind me of the quote from Pirsig in Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance . . .

"It's this understanding of Quality as revealed by stuckness which so often makes self-taught mechanics so superior to institute-trained men who have learned how to handle everything except a new situation." . . . In the best possible way, your way of thinking doesn't remind me of 'institute-trained men"....... Although some of those people can, I'm sure can be excellent, he hastens to add, just in case he's made the wrong call 

It's much appreciated mate, thank you 

...................

I know I've posted this pic and question before, but didn't get a response to it, other than that it's probably original powder coating. I don't think it's a good idea to have this powder whizzing around in there. It must have been pondered before, but I can't find anything related to it online. Does any one have a good method of getting rid of the corrosion salts(?), and preventing it from coming back? Is it just a clean and grease, probably sticky stuff and thin to avoid it being slung out near the tyre as the wheels centrifugal force is occurring?




All the powder coating has come off.

Cheers Mart

[izzug otom]

Oh, and just as an aside, the blood blister I gave myself by hammering my thumb instead of the chisel 2 or 3 weeks ago, has remained quite painful, and the pain was quite deep.

Anyway the the blood blister had dried out, so I pulled it off.

Well imagine my surprise when it revealed a tiny little angry face, complete with a row of teeth ...... WTaF?!?!



 

No wonder it was still painful to put any pressure on the end of my thumb, which you only really realise how much we tend to do that, when it's injured ,,, It seems that I'd managed to cause a cut under the blood blister that has gone quite deep, or maybe it got a bit infected, that's what the kind of pain feels like.

It's only a flesh wound 

[jacksonracingcomau]

Blimey, I'm so sorry mate, I don't think I responded to you here, but I managed to get the bearing pressed in and circlip fitted perfectly.

It's definitely something I'm marking in my to do list, the next time I have call to remove the swing arm. It seems like it would make the job easier. Having said that, I'm going to be sure not to let things get in that state again.

I get it that it'd prevent the outer race spinning in the swing arm, which mine had done, but how does it help prevent the u/j spinning in the inner race? .. Not that I had that problem, I had to cut that race off the uj yoke.

Where exactly do you add the screws, are they at an angle, or directly into the outer edge of the bearing?

Cheers 

A much more common problem than yours is uj spinning in bearing, getting sloppy and then wearing out splines, most noticeably on the pinion shaft. Getting the bearing true in swingingarm and uj perfectly mounted in bearing is the goal. The grub screw mod helps by firstly getting uj in bearing and then locking the bearing square in swingingarm. I’m convinced it was a good step by Guzzi
I ‘ve never seen the factory swinging arm only tech drawings, mine are drilled and tapped slightly inward so do up grub screws till they stop, bearing is locked square . But exactly at bearing edge would do same

But really, I think you’ve fixed yours for next few years, changing the uj crosses was excessive use of cash imho but pretty unlikely to have to go back there for 50k miles so go and have fun

[izzug otom]

A much more common problem than yours is uj spinning in bearing, getting sloppy and then wearing out splines, most noticeably on the pinion shaft. Getting the bearing true in swingingarm and uj perfectly mounted in bearing is the goal. The grub screw mod helps by firstly getting uj in bearing and then locking the bearing square in swingingarm. I’m convinced it was a good step by Guzzi
I ‘ve never seen the factory swinging arm only tech drawings, mine are drilled and tapped slightly inward so do up grub screws till they stop, bearing is locked square . But exactly at bearing edge would do same

But really, I think you’ve fixed yours for next few years, changing the uj crosses was excessive use of cash imho but pretty unlikely to have to go back there for 50k miles so go and have fun

I had a couple of days out, it was my birthday on the 19th, and spent some good time with a few friends. Back to the fray now, so to speak 

I still don't understand how the outer bearing race, being held in place, prevents the inner bearing to u/j slipping, unless that slippage is connected to pressing the u/j into the carrier bearing in situ?

Is the swing arm bearing housing reamed out a little to allow an easier fit. It's just that mine needed considerable pressure from a hydraulic press to get the bearing home, and just wondering how that'd be possible to do that with the u/j already fitted in the bearing?

 Sorry if I'm missing the obvious here. It certainly makes sense to me when it comes to removing a rusted or trapped circlip from inside that recess.

Is the pinion shaft spline more liable to wear damage, than the other shaft connections? The reason I ask, is that the pinion shaft splines on my bike look a lot worse than any of the others. It doesn't look like it's fresh wear though, there are no shiny bits showing anywhere, so I imagine this goes back a good while before this trouble I've had recently.




You're right, I wouldn't make the change in bearing retainment until I next have the need to pull the bearing again, hopefully a long time from now.

I was cleaning the bevel drive and left it laying flat, with the hub mating side facing down, and the oil from the drive seeped out through the bearings. Am I right in assuming this is normal? I suspect whilst in operation that oil gets through there by design, and flows back into the bevel box via the small slither of a moon opening at the bottom, underneath the bearing. I thought I'd better ask, rather than go on my assumptions though.




I haven't got the u/j rebuilt yet, but I have thinned all of the circlips, and intend to put it all together today, all being well.

I've noted the comments about me attempting to fit the u/j into the carrier bearing myself, and advised to seek help with the task. I understand that there's genuine concern that I'll find this task to be difficult, and as such take seriously what's being suggested. Can I please ask where the perceived difficulty might lie? It's just that if it's because I'll need a press, I'm pretty sure I can have the use of the hydraulic press again.

As for the sleeve, if the idea of a stout plastic fizzy pop bottle well and truly gaffa taped to keep it straight, isn't going to be strong enough to prevent it buckling, I should be able to get some stout plastic drainage pipe of the correct diameter from somewhere local.

One worry that goes through my head is if I get too much pressure on with the hydraulic press, that it finally goes with a thump onto the inner race of the carrier bearing. Obviously, with no experience of pressing the u/j into the carrier bearing, I'm not sure what to expect in the way of the pressure required to press it home, but I know it's not ideal to apply much force to the inner race of a ball bearing.

Bike repair shops ar far and few between here, haha, mind you, that's the UK version of far and few between, in comparison to the US, where a trip half the length of England seems like an average trip to a bike w/shop for many. But are you guys thinking any decent engineering shop, or local car mechanics would be able to manage the task? Or are you thinking specifically of a guzzi experienced mechanic?

I would like to do it myself, if the press is the issue, but if you think there's a good chance I'll be heading for a whole world of pain, I'll respect the heads up, and get some help with it.

Cheers, Mart

[Tom H]

Soo  many questions....

Carrier bearing should be a very tight fit into the swingarm. That is what keeps the carrier bearing from spinning. The bearing and the retaining clip go in the swingarm first. Then the U joint is installed.

U joint is supposed to have a tight fit into the carrier bearing, Good and snug is fine. If the U joint does not have a snug fit into the carrier bearing, the U joint can start spinning in the carrier bearing and the bearing may not turn. The U joint should slide in with light pressure from a hydraulic press. It should not go in with a bang.

The issue pressing the U joint in is tat the U joint will not stay straight in the swingarm. When you start pressing it will tilt off to one side or the other. I think there was a tool for Loops to hold the U joint straight Basically a tube that went around the U joint to keep it straight.

With this said, all my U joints will slide into the carrier bearing by hand, not press needed. They fit snug and the bearing does turn.

Yes oil will come out the bevel drive if left flat or pointed down.

You splines are not the prettiest. Cleaned up they may be ok. Check your coupler splines, they could be bad and you may need a new coupler. Also grease the heck out of the splines with a tacky grease.

Hope this helps,
Tom

PS: Happy B-Day

[n3303j]

Looks to me that the input spline spent a fair amount of time under water. I'd be curious what the inside of the final drive looked like.

[izzug otom]

Soo  many questions....

Carrier bearing should be a very tight fit into the swingarm. That is what keeps the carrier bearing from spinning. The bearing and the retaining clip go in the swingarm first. Then the U joint is installed.

U joint is supposed to have a tight fit into the carrier bearing, Good and snug is fine. If the U joint does not have a snug fit into the carrier bearing, the U joint can start spinning in the carrier bearing and the bearing may not turn. The U joint should slide in with light pressure from a hydraulic press. It should not go in with a bang.

The issue pressing the U joint in is tat the U joint will not stay straight in the swingarm. When you start pressing it will tilt off to one side or the other. I think there was a tool for Loops to hold the U joint straight Basically a tube that went around the U joint to keep it straight.

With this said, all my U joints will slide into the carrier bearing by hand, not press needed. They fit snug and the bearing does turn.

Yes oil will come out the bevel drive if left flat or pointed down.

You splines are not the prettiest. Cleaned up they may be ok. Check your coupler splines, they could be bad and you may need a new coupler. Also grease the heck out of the splines with a tacky grease.

Hope this helps,
Tom

PS: Happy B-Day

Ah Tom, thank you. I get that the carrier bearing should be a tight fit. That part of my questions was directed to Jackson racing, and referring to using set screws to retain the bearing instead of the circlip, and that he, and others I've seen, fits the uj to the carrier bearing prior to fitting the whole lot into the carrier bearing. So I was wondering if the bearing housing was reamed out to make the carrier bearing easier to fit, because mine needed pressing in with considerable force, and couldn't figure out how that was done with the uj already fitted in the c. bearing.

Jackson also said it reduced the chances of the uj spinning in the inner race, and again, I don't understand how, so again I was just enquiring.

My carrier bearing was a good tight press fit into the swing arm, and the old inner bearing had to be cut off the uj, so I'm not expecting a lose fit there either.

Yes I get that with the uj wanting to buckle too. I was thinking about trying a stout fizzy drink bottle, by cutting a section the right length, cut along the length so that it can overlap, and then tape it off for a good snug fit. However, I was advised that it may be a good idea to seek help with getting it fitted.

Ah that's good to be sure about the oil is seeping from the final drive as it should in that position.

Yes, the final drive spline is a bit of a mystery, the splines on the coupler seem good, as they do on the other end of the shaft connecting to the uj, and the output shaft splines. It's just the pinion drive splines that look so rough.

As I said, it doesn't look like it's been gnarled up of late, and the coupler looks decent, so I'm assuming something has perhaps gone on down there a good while ago.

Yes, and thanks, I've got a tub of Red n' Tacky grease for all the splines 

[Tom H]

IIRR the set screws are used on my '04 without a retaining ring. I would have to look it up to confirm this.

IMHO, if you can get the U joint to slide into the carrier bearing by hand with a firm push, you are good to go. Others that have way more years of "working daily" experience on these bikes I'm sure have different opinions. My opinion come from 40 years of owning two Loops as well as my EVT for 10 years.

Your carrier seems fine if it needed to be pressed in.

With all the rust in the bits your working on, I'm thinking your U joint rubber boot was bad and letting water in.

As mentioned. It might be worth opening up the bevel box and see what it looks like inside. If the oil that came out looks good and not milky looking, you "could" be fine. But since your in this deep already, might be worth a look and clean out.

Tom

[izzug otom]

Looks to me that the input spline spent a fair amount of time under water. I'd be curious what the inside of the final drive looked like.

I can see how it looks like that, but look beyond the circlip and you'll see the damage doesn't extend down there. If you look at the other pic, you'll notice the oil that's seeped through the bearings isn't ghastly at all, neither was the oil I removed the last time I changed the oil. On turning the pinion shaft, everything feels smooth, with no play between the pinion shaft and the toothed gear that engages the wheel.

The reddish look on the splines is not rust, but the remnants of red tacky grease, the wear a battering are real enough though. I don't really understand how water gets in the swing arm, the rubber boot was all good and well secured, but the carrier bearing obviously had some moisture in there, to disintegrate it into rusty bits.

I've had the bike 9 years and confess, this is the first time I've ever removed the swing arm.

The grease, of which looked like it'd once been plentiful had dried out and become crumbly, a bit like a dryish red clay.

I suspect, as per the comments made above by Jackson, that in the past the bike has had some sort of issue in the carrier bearing, which apparently causes sloppiness particularly on the pinion shaft. . . . At least that's how my brain calculates it, I may be wrong of course, it could have been wear over time under harsh conditions. I can't for the life of me think that these splines could have ever been completely submerged in water as you suggest. I can't see how that could even be a possibility?

I often use the bike in winter, and it lives outdoors, but I still can't see how water would get in there, as I said, it's well sealed up. I've heard it mentioned that condensation can be an issue in the swing arm too, but I can't imagine it being enough to submerge the pinion shaft, and the spline coupler is, comparatively speaking, in a lot better shape.

If I am somehow getting water into the swing arm housing of the driveshaft, I could certainly do with figuring out why, but having said that, I will be pulling my swing arm and inspect the uj/drive train in the annual yearly basis from now on 

[Tom H]

You pics look like rust, not dried grease. If it's just dried grease all is fine. Well except for the grease

I would not pull the swingarm as regular maintenance,

Tom

[izzug otom]

IIRR the set screws are used on my '04 without a retaining ring. I would have to look it up to confirm this.

IMHO, if you can get the U joint to slide into the carrier bearing by hand with a firm push, you are good to go. Others that have way more years of "working daily" experience on these bikes I'm sure have different opinions. My opinion come from 40 years of owning two Loops as well as my EVT for 10 years.

Your carrier seems fine if it needed to be pressed in.

With all the rust in the bits your working on, I'm thinking your U joint rubber boot was bad and letting water in.

As mentioned. It might be worth opening up the bevel box and see what it looks like inside. If the oil that came out looks good and not milky looking, you "could" be fine. But since your in this deep already, might be worth a look and clean out.

Tom

Yes Tom, my carrier bearing is all good and new retaining clip fitted. The reason I was interested in the set screws was in consideration of doing the mod on mine mainly because of the absolute fkr of a job it was to remove the old circlip. I thought it had just seized in there, but it turned out the u/j, running lose with no support between the inner and outer race, as it had spat its balls and cage out, had been rubbing or hammering on the lip that retains the circlip, jamming it firmly around half of its circumference. . . . So in reality, if I keep inspecting it yearly for example, it should never get in this state again, as it never should have in the first place.

I think I was a bit scared of the whole drive shaft thing, I figured they were sealed bearings, and hoped I'd detect something easily enough if I had issues, which all went fine ..... for a while 

I've broken that fear well and truly now, I've found having no choice will do that to a man 

Man everything was so overdue, and can only blame myself for things getting in such s state making every job that can be difficult, bloody difficult. I was removing the wheel bearings today, and the drive side of the wheel, with the slide hammer puller, a few stout whacks and out came the bearing in a manner fit for a youtube 'how to' video . . . The other side though  . . . I removed the circlip, which took some shifting. I had to take to a small punch to tempt the ends free, and then managed to wrestle it out, much to the detriment of the clip, which had bent right out of shape. I've ordered a replacement, arrives tmro

Then I got the collet in a good level hold attached the slide hammer, but no matter how many times, or how much force was applied when, I slammed the slide hammer out, that bearing didn't budge the slightest bit. There's rust visible from the circlip groove to the edge of the outer race. I've applied WD40, and had a good run around with a wire brush, so I'll see if it gives tomorrow. I can borrow a good blow torch if necessary, and I imagine heating up the outer part of the hub that holds the bearing, should expand it enough for the bearing to free up.

I'm not too phased by this though, it's very easy to get at compared to the stuck carrier bearing race in the deep swing arm recess. It seems like fair enough play for the effort required to be matching the neglect.

However, I've got to say, I really don't want to split the bevel drive without any indication of any problems. The oil that came out was like a quality clear honey, definitely no water/oil sludge or cloudiness. The roughness on the worn splines stops clearly at the pinion shaft circlip, and much of what looks like a rust colour on the splines, is dried up baked of red grease.

Here's a pic that shows things better re grease/rust. You can see the accumulation of the grease and its colour on the very end of the pinion splined shaft, and also around the circlip




Here's the coupler that connects to the pinion shaft




And the end that connects to the u/j




However, confession time, and believe me I feel embarrassed, but a couple of days before my birthday I realised that I'd somehow managed to lose my driveshaft  I searched and searched for 2 days and nights, and wasn't able to stop thinking about where it could be. I don't know if anyone here understands ADHD, but this is a common theme, losing stuff. There are some plus sides, but this is one of the most annoying, most frustrating aspects.

I was really wound up, and in a foul mood with myself for a couple of days, and with impulsivity being another trait of ADHD, I thought to myself "Right, just buy yourself another one, and write the old one off, because it's not worth the mental agonising", and it was the day before my birthday. I figured if the old one turned up, I'll have a spare, or I can resell one. I do understand how difficult this might be to comprehend, but please bear with me, such is life this end, and although I try and take a humorous outlook on it, me, at times it really isn't funny 

I was once away for a few days, and as the police always say, 'don't make it easy for them' I hid my bike keys in a safe place. On my return, it took 8 days to find them.

Yesterday, I found the old driveshaft  I must have tripped on it in the dark and not remembered doing so, or something, as it had gone under my yard gate and sitting there in the side ally.

So yes, now I have a choice of 2 driveshafts. This one off ebay from a '94 model, which, if the original, has seen a far quieter life than mine, the condition is near perfect. This may be the difference between an all year round bike, and a summer only bike, I don't know. These are the only 2 guzzi drive shafts I've seen, so I don't know what exactly would be normal from a near 25yr old bike.

So, another £69 spent on ebay  I assume I'd be better fitting the better one, seeing as I have a choice 







So there you go, I'm a proper fk-wit at times , but I hope this doesn't put anyone off, because as you can see, I need the help  , and it really is greatly appreciated. This is probably the most embarrassing post I'm ever likely to post. I could have kept it to myself I guess, but it is what is and I'd rather be open than worry about covering my tracks.

Anway, moving right along  If I feel the need to get in the bevel box at any point, it's something that's easy to get at to remove it as and when.

As regards the rubber boot, that was my first suspicion too, but on inspection, I can find no cracking or tears in the rubber at all, and the holding bands were fixed as they should've been. This is what made me think the damage to the pinion shaft might be from a previous time, but I'm not at all sure about that as the carrier bearing was totally rusted out internally.

 I have bought a new boot, because I thought the old one was probably a bit stiff with age, but when the new one arrived, there was little or no difference in the stiffness. Once the new one arrived I checked the old one more thoroughly, really stretching it to see if I could find a break in its integrity, but I could find nothing to indicate a leak, not even fine cracking on the surface. Obviously though I'll fit the new one when putting it back together 

[izzug otom]

Here's the stuck wheel bearing, the brake disc side, which stands to reason, being the more exposed to road salts and the elements.

It's really stuck fast. You can see the corrosive crud on the circlip here. The bearing is clearly suffering from the same.




This won't budge it




Lots of WD40 a good wire brushing, and after a lot of thwacks with the slide hammer, it's still clinging to the wheel hub for dear life. So it looks like some heat is my best option from here

[Mike Tashjian]

The slide hammer in the picture is a bit on the light weight side.  I would be looking to reach in from the other side with a round rod and contact the bearing.  If the spacer is in there it should move to the side enough to get the rod onto the bearing center section.  Then a hammer with a good three plus pounds to strike the rod.  Rust can really hold tight so striking with a heavy hammer should get that bearing moving. 

[izzug otom]

The slide hammer in the picture is a bit on the light weight side.  I would be looking to reach in from the other side with a round rod and contact the bearing.  If the spacer is in there it should move to the side enough to get the rod onto the bearing center section.  Then a hammer with a good three plus pounds to strike the rod.  Rust can really hold tight so striking with a heavy hammer should get that bearing moving.

Yes, I was having to do all the work I reckon, a heavier slide hammer would certainly offer a lot more for a lot less. Still, I was surprised not to shift it though, perhaps because the easy side came out easier 

I'll give it a pop from the other side, the spacer is out. There's not a great deal of the edge to hit it, except for a small area big enough to take a smallish punch. Would it be a bad idea, in such circumstances, to have a couple of holes drilled through opposite each other so you could hit the outer race? . . . Not in the sense I'm thinking of doing that  , I mean during manufacture.

Another thing I'm a bit bamboozled by, is that the original uj crosses were, I believe, 50mm x 22mm, and we can only get ones that are 50.2mm or 49mm. I know 50.2mm isn't much difference from 50mm, but it's enough of a difference to require thinning the external circlips for them to fit in the yoke. Maybe I'm worrying about nothing, but is it safe to be thinning the circlips, considering what they're holding in place.

The place in Germany where I got mine from informed me that they were Italian manufacturer's crosses and the same ones Guzzi themself use, and the packet was marked up Cali 1100 etc, but they weren't 50mm, they were 50.2, the same as is available elsewhere . . . at considerably less cost.

I'd have thought that Guzzi would have used a generic uj cross, rather than manufacturing their own specific size, and wonder why the 50mm aren't available. I'd be interested to know how well the 49mm x 22mm crosses fit, which are also listed as being for the Guzzi, whether they fit easier, yet snuggly held by the circlips, maybe thicker ones, if the groove goes deep enough. I'd have thought it's probably one of the last places you want to be playing with tolerances.

Sorry, just airing some puzzling thoughts I've had of late. 

 I'm still in awe of the Cardan uj's ability and durability. That really is some piece of sublime engineering. I remember thinking the same when working on the farm when I was in my late teens early 20's, where all mechanical implements operated by open drive shafts and uj's. I've never had much cause to think about them that much since then, until now, and at 62, I'm still thinking 'Wow, that really is some sublime bit of kit, is that!".   

[n3303j]

If the difference is only .2 mm (0.008") I'd have been tempted to dust .1 mm (0.004") off the end of each bearing cap. That's almost an emery cloth job. Certainly a quick minute with a belt sander (If you own a micrometer).

[Tom H]

For the wheel bearing. Your replacing it anyway. So just whack away at the inner ring, don't worry about hitting the outer ring. Installing, hit only the outer to push it in.

Sure looks like water damage. Normally a bad rubber boot would cause this. Not sure of your history with the bike, but makes me think that someone just replaced the rubber boot and ignored the rest. And then, you see what happened. Put the new boot on, your in there this deep, don't want to have to do it again anytime soon.

Don't be so down on yourself. It's funny the way you bring it up though, funny in a very nice way

You are doing very good with the resources you have.

The new drive shaft and coupler looks very nice, Run it.

Tom

[izzug otom]

If the difference is only .2 mm (0.008") I'd have been tempted to dust .1 mm (0.004") off the end of each bearing cap. That's almost an emery cloth job. Certainly a quick minute with a belt sander (If you own a micrometer).

That's a very cool idea, but no, I don't have micrometers.

That makes a good point though, the circlips I've ground down were not measured at all, I just made them all thinner, and no doubt to varying degrees 

And oddly enough, I just came across this video, it's from an in depth series on uj's and propshafts. He's a bit slow getting through stuff, but interesting all the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10BhHuwnQ7I

It's a segment on centering and adjusting axial play in uj's, and it seems that many uj's come with circlips or G-clips etc, of varying thicknesses for adjusting the axial play. It seems that'd be a good idea in the case of the 50.2mm and, if the circlip groove is deep enough, the 49mm I imagine. Or maybe work out the thickness needed for the guzzi yokes and see if they're manufactured to that size, if so, it could be quite a useful resource for forums such as this. The thing is though, I'm sure I took more than 0.1mm off the circlips, and I still think it's a bit tight, and giving some preload, certainly no detectable axial play.

[izzug otom]

For the wheel bearing. Your replacing it anyway. So just whack away at the inner ring, don't worry about hitting the outer ring. Installing, hit only the outer to push it in.

Sure looks like water damage. Normally a bad rubber boot would cause this. Not sure of your history with the bike, but makes me think that someone just replaced the rubber boot and ignored the rest. And then, you see what happened. Put the new boot on, your in there this deep, don't want to have to do it again anytime soon.

Don't be so down on yourself. It's funny the way you bring it up though, funny in a very nice way

You are doing very good with the resources you have.

The new drive shaft and coupler looks very nice, Run it.

Tom

Ah thank you mate, I appreciate your words there. When I fk up like that, I do get down on myself pretty bad, it's really frustrating at times, but I feel it and let it go pretty quickly. I specifically have a box for keeping all of the parts together in one place, as I'm sure most people would, specifically to avoid things like this happening, but hey ho, it's not a bullet proof protection for me 

And no, don't worry about finding it funny, I often laugh out loud at my own "duh!" moments, not always in the moment when it's something important, you know, like missing afternoon tea with the vicar , but they're none the less amusing with time or objectivity.

In this case, the bonus is the excellent condition of the new shaft and coupler, hopefully it might take up a bit of slack, given the erosion of the pinion shaft splines.

I find it hard to work out what's gone on here. I agree, it looks like wet corrosion, but at the same time, had signs of ample grease, all be it old and deteriorated grease that had a consistency similar to a soft clay. Squished between the fingers, it was definitely grease. The photograph of the eroded spline was post brushing with white spirits. So I wonder, did this suffer from being very wet for a good length of time, and was then greased up, prior to me buying it, with like you say maybe a bad boot replaced. Or has this all occurred under my ownership? Or maybe even a mixture of the two.

I've had the bike over 9yrs, never had the swing arm off, which sounds like a long time for the bearing to eventually rust out completely, if due to moisture contamination prior to my ownership. But the boot seems to be absolutely intact, so where would so much moisture have got into the swing arm whilst I've had the bike, especially to the extent of keeping the pinion shaft in a permanently wet state? Perhaps I should inspect all welds and joins for cracks or little holes, no harm to check, but I'd think that very unlikely.

The other thing that I find totally perplexing though, is why is there no erosion on the pinion shaft directly beneath/behind its circlip, even where the mouth opening of the circlip shows zero signs of corrosion whatsoever, and there's nothing there that acts as, or is protected by, any seal that I can figure out. If there was that much water just laying in there, how would it not pollute the rear drive's oil, which would appear obvious in the state of the oil, which has always looked fine when I've changed it, as it did when it leaked out the other day. This really leaves me scratching my head in bemusement, why does the erosion stop dead at the pinion shaft's circlip like that? 

I know I have to deal with what is regardless, but I really would like to figure out what's gone on exactly, and how, simply because I just can't make any sense of it. I can see it's happened, but there seems to be anomalies that don't compute, to me.

I don't know how the pinion shaft splines will fair in time, one or two of the splines appear thinner than the others, and I imagine any play in the mating join of the spline and coupler would surely accelerate future wear. I'll clean it further, treat with jenolite rust remover, and finally coat with a decent smear of red n tacky grease on assembly, along with the fresher coupler, and hopefully, it'll do the job for a good while to come. . . . fingers crossed 

Yes, no worries Tom, I'll be using the new boot, it may have to be there some time 

You can see clearly in this photo that beneath the circlip is corrosion free, even in the channel that runs through the circlip opening, the only stuff there is some detritus from the white spirit and toothbrush, over clean smooth shiny steel as per the neighbouring channels, the circlip and above are badly affected, totally perplexing

Thanks, Mart

[izzug otom]

A long shot I imagine, but grease incompatibility?

There looked like there had been loads of grease in the swingarm housing, the whole internal surfaces were caked in it, but when scraped off it crumbled like soil, not to powder, but close. Perhaps just because the grease was 9yrs+ old.

I was just reading about the mixing of some greases can cause oil drop out and caking up of the grease, which is how I'd describe the plentiful remnants of grease.

Maybe I'm way over thinking, but it was along the lines of it being specifically the greased areas only that have been affected.

This shows well, how the grease had caked up on the wall of the swing arm, and what really surprises me, is the sheer quantity of it. The liquid you can see is WD40 used to try and free the jammed circlip, it was originally all dry on removal. It looks like it's something that's just been dug out of the garden. How on earth did so much cruddy, crumbly caked grease get deposited in that amount I can't imagine. More perplexion 






I took it to a local jet wash and gave it a blasting to get rid of the crap, before fitting the bearing of course. You'll be able to notice that this crap is the same reddish colour as is seen on the pinion shaft, drive shaft and uj, that would initially appear to be rust in a photo, but although there are clear signs of erosion. the actual colouration on the pinion shaft is down to this sticky caked on crap of whatever description it is and not so much rust. I'll have another clean up before long, and only use a nylon brush, as I did last time, so that I don't scrape off any signs of rust, and take a pic and a closer examination, but I'm pretty certain I'm correct in thinking that there's little or no recent surface rust.

This is what's made me wonder if the damage had been done, and subsequently greased liberally, before it ever reached my hands.

Of course, I'm not trying to pinpoint a cause, to avoid it being down to my responsibility. I had from the start, figured all my woes were down to my own neglect of the drive train, and not recognising earlier signs of problems.

Such as when I was travelling at 80mph and over, (I imagine, cos I wouldn't go breaking no speed limits, oh no, no siree!) my feet would feel a lot of vibration and slide outwards on the footboards, and I'd have to keep lifting my foot up and reposition it, and when I thought back on it, I only have memories of it being on the RH side foot, which I've gathered would be where it'd be most noticeable if something goes awry in the drive shaft/uj etc.

The thing is, I can't remember a time when it didn't do that, and thought that was just a part of riding an old school big thumping twin. If that was always a sign of drive train issues, as it sounds like it may have been, one thing for sure is that the issue lasted a seriously long time, as in several years, before finally culminating in the trouble I've been dealing with here. I'm a fairly low mileage rider as a rule, but still  .

That means that if I was the type to occasionally break the speed limit on a perfect, open, camera free, road, I could well have been doing a ton a few times with a dodgy drive train  . In which case, my woes could have been one hell of a lot worse, and perhaps I ended up with the softest way of learning an important lesson here.

All that bloody caked up soil like mixture in the swing arm, and the corrosion stopping at the corroded circlip on the pinion shaft, what is all that about? (thinking out loud)

Thanks if you've stuck with my ramblings here, any thoughts, please feel free 

Thanks again, Mart

Edit :- Or maybe there's a much simpler explanation that I'm missing here. The bevel drive could have been placed, pinion shaft down, in a container that had a water level regularly maintained at around 2 inches for a couple of years, before being fitted on my bike. . . . . Yeah of course, that'll be it, silly me