Help needed troubleshooting V 11 Sport

[bigbikerrick]

Hello folks, I am trying to help out a friend having trouble with his 03 Lemans. The problem is the bike wont idle, and sputters, backfires, just runs terrible, except for high speeds higher rpms.  I started by setting the valves to .006 and .008 . The left side exhaust was so tight ,there was zero clearance, and the intake had very little clearance. I thought I had found the problem, but no such luck! 
It still would not idle, so I cleaned the TBs, and the air screws, with carb cleaner spray, and set TPS to 150mv with butterfly closed . I then set the idle voltage on the TPS to 525 mv,  and balanced the TBs. The bike will barely run, is very hard to start, and backfires, as if the timing was off.
The plugs look black and sooty as in too rich, and you can smell fuel when its running. I have gone through the tuning procedure in Guzziology, many times. I even replaced the TPS with a good used one I have,and it made no difference.
any advice and suggestions on what to check next much appreciated.
Rick D.

[skippy]

Finding the valves tight on one cylinder is no good. If it ran for a period of time in that condition it is likely the valves may be burned up, especially the exhaust. Either do a leak down test or go straight to pulling the head off the left side.

Skippy

[guzzisteve]

TB bleed screws should be 3/4-1/2 open, identical on both sides. In GuzziDiag program there is an Idle mixture setting, make sure it is 0-30 not much over. Find out what 15M map the bike has installed.

[bigbikerrick]

My Friend rode the LeMans from northern Utah to southern AZ. It was  a 3 day trip, and half way through, the bike started to not idle. He rode it that way, at freeway speeds for over a day and a half, so I imagine the valves were closed up on the left side for a while, and he was hauling ass, he told me.. I have ordered the lonelec cable for Guzzi diag. I have not used Guzzidiag in a long time,and need to familiarize myself with it. What can I check or adjust through Guzzidiag, that I cant do with just the multimeter method for setting the TPS, etc?
Steve, I have played with the air bleed screws, from 1/2 open all the way to 1 3/4 turn open. It makes no difference. It sorta acts like there is an air leak, as the idle wont drop back down, but fluctuates, sometimes staying up at 2-3K rpms. I have sprayed carb cleaner all around the intake manifolds,and there was no change in idle to suggest a leak.
Would a compression test help, or only a leak down test?
Anything else I should check?
Thanks
Rick

[guzzisteve]

It is fuel injected, to adjust idle mixture you need software. The air bleeds also control how rich, open to lean it out but most engines run at 1/2-3/4 and can be up to 1 1/2 open. Other than that you need to adjust the numbers for idle w/software. It will tell you what the map name says. I have seen those ECU's change idle mix on their own.
It could also be a bad temp sensor either oil or air making things rich, that you can do with multi-meter.

[Vagrant]

It has the POS plastic plug for the temp sensor to screw into in the right head. It might be broken.

[pressureangle]

First, check compression to be sure the exhaust valves aren't leaking- or burnt up entirely. If compression is good on both sides, it's possible there's trash in the injectors; usually this reduces flow but it can hold them open and dribble extra fuel. Also, if you have a failed plug wire or cap (I had similar symptoms with a 5,000 mile NGK plug cap) it will show as misfire with rich spark plug. Ignition is easiest to check, with a Multimeter.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Timing sensor?

[bigbikerrick]

If the problem were a plug wire or cap, it would not likely show both plugs rich, would it? I would think it could possibly be the oil or air temp sensor. Can those be tested with a multimeter, or do i need guzzidiag for that?
Thanks
Rick D.

[Guzzidad]

It has the POS plastic plug for the temp sensor to screw into in the right head. It might be broken.

   This

[guzzisteve]

Look in service manual for the specs on reading the sensor w/a meter.

[jrt]

Timing sensor?

When mine failed, the engine just stopped.  No signal from the sensor means the injectors are not energized.  Nor the fuel pump, I think (except for 3 sec after the key is turned on)

[bigbikerrick]

So if the timing sensor were bad,or gave no signal to the ECU, the engine would not start at all, as in the fuel pump would not run, and the engine would definitely not run correctly at higher speeds?

I see the bike has the blue plastic temp sensor in the right head. Would it be readily apparent by visual inspection if it were bad or broken, or can that be tested somehow ? 

Is this something that would show up on Guzzidiag?
Thanks alot
Rick.

[pressureangle]

If the problem were a plug wire or cap, it would not likely show both plugs rich, would it? I would think it could possibly be the oil or air temp sensor. Can those be tested with a multimeter, or do i need guzzidiag for that?
Thanks
Rick D.

You're correct, a wire or cap would affect only the cylinder it's attached to. So yes, the temp sensors can make it run rich but only so much. As suggested, inspect and measure them; I don't know the values to test, myself. BUT also, there are ignition connectons that can affect spark and the ignition switches are always suspect. I'd check voltage at the coils vs. voltage at the battery- if it's minus .5 volts or more, there's resistance in the coil power circuit. So many things to guess at without hands-on. Sit in the bulldozer of science, and start pushing dirt. One thing confirmed or discovered at a time.

[jrt]

So if the timing sensor were bad,or gave no signal to the ECU, the engine would not start at all, as in the fuel pump would not run, and the engine would definitely not run correctly at higher speeds?


Is this something that would show up on Guzzidiag?
Thanks alot
Rick.

Not run.  The fuel pump would cycle with the key (2-3 sec) to pressure up, but not run after that.  Kiwi Roy had a nice writeup and a diagram of where to put some diodes to check for power to the ECU and power to the pump.  If the ECU gets power, but the fuel pump does not (after cycling), that points to the timing sensor.  Also sometimes called the phase sensor or the cam sensor. 
From your description it doesn't sound like this would be my first avenue of inspection.

[bigbikerrick]

Thank You Pressureangle,and JRT. I appreciate the responses,and am in agreement. After what you state, I am less inclined to suspect the timing sensor, as the culprit, since the engine will start, after alot of cranking,and throttling, but then it will run at higher rpms without a miss. I dont think that would happen if the timing sensor went kaputz.  I will look in the service manual and check on how to test the timing sensor and temp sensor if possible, with a multimeter.
I appreciate the help,and welcome any other suggestions.
thanks
Rick D.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Thank You Pressureangle,and JRT. I appreciate the responses,and am in agreement. After what you state, I am less inclined to suspect the timing sensor, as the culprit, since the engine will start, after alot of cranking,and throttling, but then it will run at higher rpms without a miss. I dont think that would happen if the timing sensor went kaputz.  I will look in the service manual and check on how to test the timing sensor and temp sensor if possible, with a multimeter.
I appreciate the help,and welcome any other suggestions.
thanks
Rick D.

I've seen one that did that when the timing sensor was mis adjusted. From memory  the sensors should be around 600 ohms. You really should go to V11lemans.com. Every little thing about the V11S has been addressed at some time..  it is a great resource.

[Vagrant]

Without going back and re-reading everything, did you pull the cam sensor and clean the end of it?

[bigbikerrick]

I am away from the bike for the holiday, as soon as I get back home, in a couple of days, I plan to take a look at the cam sensor. Hey Chuck, what you refer to as "misadjusted" is that the distance between the sensor and where it gets a reading, off the cam, or something else ?   The bikes owner has a new cam sensor on order, so it will be replaced anyway, in the near future.
thanks guys,
Rick D.

[bigbikerrick]

I found the part about the adjustment of the cam sensor. The clearance from the tip to the toothed area should be 0.7-0.9 mm and shimming gaskets are available in different thicknesses. It seems like it may be a bit "fidgety" to measure and get the clearance  just right...
Rick D.

[PJPR01]

Hello folks, I am trying to help out a friend having trouble with his 03 Lemans. The problem is the bike wont idle, and sputters, backfires, just runs terrible, except for high speeds higher rpms.  I started by setting the valves to .006 and .008 . The left side exhaust was so tight ,there was zero clearance, and the intake had very little clearance. I thought I had found the problem, but no such luck! 
It still would not idle, so I cleaned the TBs, and the air screws, with carb cleaner spray, and set TPS to 150mv with butterfly closed . I then set the idle voltage on the TPS to 525 mv,  and balanced the TBs. The bike will barely run, is very hard to start, and backfires, as if the timing was off.
The plugs look black and sooty as in too rich, and you can smell fuel when its running. I have gone through the tuning procedure in Guzziology, many times. I even replaced the TPS with a good used one I have,and it made no difference.
any advice and suggestions on what to check next much appreciated.
Rick D.

Given that the TPS setting to 157 mv is the most difficult part of the process and you have that done properly, I would suspect fuel injectors may be clogged.  Easy enough to get them reconditioned...I did that a year ago on my V11 Scura and it helped a lot.  Fiddling with the TPS to get it just perfect to get rid of the cough is probably the hardest part. 

The other option is to also load Meinolf's map for the V11 that helped also eliminating 95% of the coughing problem.  I've got the faintest barely noticeable hiccup right at 3k, but all other RPM's work perfectly so it's not an issue...but these V11's are notoriously finicky.

You're getting some of the same good advice as you'd get on the V11 Lemans site...but there is also a Good Tuneup write up that Docc maintains...worthwh ile looking at just in case something in that sequence wasn't followed perfectly. 

Idle screws and linkage between the throttle bodies also a key important part to getting the bike to run smoothly.

Cheers!

[John A]

I found the part about the adjustment of the cam sensor. The clearance from the tip to the toothed area should be 0.7-0.9 mm and shimming gaskets are available in different thicknesses. It seems like it may be a bit "fidgety" to measure and get the clearance  just right...
Rick D.

Someone here suggested using a dot of quick set jbweld or equivalent on the end of the sensor to set the clearance. I recently used that trick on a 99 special sport so I wouldn’t have to open the timing chest for a measurement. The residual oil on the phonic wheel acts like a release and I cut the dot apart with a razor and got an accurate measurement that way .

[bigbikerrick]

Paul, I have Doccs write up on how to tune the V 11 sport. Its good stuff,and I have followed it, and used his method to synch the TBs. 
 John, thats clever using a drop of fast cure JB weld. Its a sort of works like  "plastigauge"! Very clever.  I will figgure something out, on how to check the clearance.
Thanks
Rick

[PJPR01]

Paul, I have Doccs write up on how to tune the V 11 sport. Its good stuff,and I have followed it, and used his method to synch the TBs. 
 John, thats clever using a drop of fast cure JB weld. Its a sort of works like  "plastigauge"! Very clever.  I will figgure something out, on how to check the clearance.
Thanks
Rick

Good to hear Rick…thinking thru other items I have seen another item to check then would be the fuel spigot itself…it could be clogged with debris in the mesh filter.  Have you also checked the fuel filter?  Do you know if the injectors are spraying a full pattern?

[Shiny Hat]

You have good use of logic, this will help you isolate the issue.
You noted the spark plugs indicated a rich condition, this would be on both plugs correct? If so I would focus on what’s common between the two cylinders. Your first issue is fuel or ignition. The good thing is it runs at higher RPM’S but won’t idle. That would eliminate items like filters. If it’s fuel related and equal between cylinders I would eliminate injectors (it can happen but two fail the same at the same time is unlikely) The TPS is common (you eliminated that with a know good sensor). Temp sensors, I don’t think so. I would think they are NTC so a cold start should be OK but a hot start would be difficult, or if reading in the other range, indicating warm engine, you would have a tough cold start but ok hot start. Maybe fuel pressure, too high if it’s rich, but might run better as air is added. Is the pressure regulator working properly. At idle you don’t need a high fuel pressure because of the negative pressure in the intake (easier to inject fuel) at higher RPM’s you would want the greater fuel pressure due to negative manifold pressure loss. It could be the ECU itself.
Ignition, could be a crap reading from the sensor, not failed but out of spec. I don’t know if the sensor on this bike is a PG or digital.

What you can try, clean the plugs, set the high idle but don’t touch the throttle, install a timing light on one of the plugs. Crank the engine a short period while watching the timing light pulse (is it there and consistent) pull the plugs and see if they are both wet with fuel or dry. This might help you to follow a fuel or ignition fault path. The timing light pulse will show the spark and it’s consistency but not the timing unless you aim it at a timing mark.
Best of luck.

[bigbikerrick]

I have not replaced the fuel filter, Paul, but since it runs good at high RPMs I am thinking there is not a fuel flow problem due to a clogged filter.
Shiny hat, Everything you stated makes sense. I have not done anything with the fuel pressure regulator. I have never heard of those failing, or at least commonly. The timing sensor and its appropriate gap from the trigger is what is starting to look suspect to me. I have a nice timing light, I will use it like you suggest to check the spark consistency, and report back.

This is how the owner of the bike described the running of the bike from Utah down to southern Arizona..."I do remember occasionally on start up after dying at lights it would fire up and idle!
next light stall again and bad start unless revved and clutch slipped to take off"

Its an intermittent problem for sure, where the running goes from bad to worse, but never right.  One thing I noticed, not sure if this may be related.... The bike has the red NGK plug boots, and when I removed the caps, the high tension wires has greenish powdery corrosion, where I had to snip off about 1/2 " of wire to get to good clean copper strands, and reinstalled the caps. This made no difference, but thought I would mention it, because I have yet to look at the coil end of the wires. I did check the wires in the dark for any current leakage,and sprayed the wires with water while it was running to see if it made a difference, but it did not.

Thanks alot guys, I appreciate the help,
Rick D.

[John Croucher]

 I am going to Put a relay between the ignition coils and battery to increase the voltage to the coils.  This will make a huge difference in over all performance I believe based on readings I get from my digital voltage gauge.  Low voltage and fluctuating voltage is affecting overall performance. 

I have not done this yet to My Quota.  I did install a digital voltage gauge.  I can tell that the engine runs differently as the voltage reading changes from low 12 volt up to 14+ volts.  At idle when the engine is running, brake light on, headlight on, turn signal on, the voltage drops to 12 volt, the engine starts to stumble.  If I fully charge the battery to 14 volt, start and run the engine, the first few minutes the bike runs great. Then the battery starts loosing voltage down into the 12 volts and starts running poorly.  I have replaced the voltage regulator 3 times and still get the same variance in voltage at the battery and same changes in engine performance.  Unfortunately, the Quota does not have room for a battery with more amperage.

I have seen the same poor performance with my California engine.  Except less often because it has a larger battery. 

And, The ignition key switch can vibrate the contacts causing poor ignition performance.

  Found this from a manufacture of ignition systems. "Once the horsepower curve was established, a battery was attached just to power the ignition system. This battery was not aided by a charging system, either. That battery was slowly drained after each run and the engine horsepower levels were noted. The first run was at 13.6 volts, and then backup runs were at 12.8 and 12.1 volts.

When the next dyno pull was run at 11.4 volts, the motor started running rough. A further drop in voltage to 11.1 volts caused even more disruption in the firing of the motor, and the run was stopped to avoid hurting the motor. It would seem, according to this test, that when the battery reaches a level of less than 11.5 volts, the motor will not only begin to lose power and run erratically, but also may cause damage to engine components."

[bigbikerrick]

Thats an excellent observation, Mr. Crowcher! I suspected the same cause, when I was trying to figgure out a similar running issue after installing a Dyna III ignition in my 76 Convert. I ended up adding a dedicated relay with a stout, fused  wire feed ,  straight from the battery, to the dyna black box,and to the coils. It made a huge difference in spark strength,and starting  on my convert.
Rick D.

[bigbikerrick]

Without going back and re-reading everything, did you pull the cam sensor and clean the end of it?

I have been going back through all the suggestions ,to make sure I have not missed something pertinent, and just thought I would mention, that I did pull the cam sensor, or timing sensor, a few days ago for a visual inspection, and it looked clean. The end runs coated in oil. 
  I am thinking the sensor you may be referring to, Steve, may be the Flywheel side sensor like found on the  earlier Californias, like the EV, that also have that sensor on the right side of the bellhousing that can magnetically attract swarf from the flywheel teeth, and affect running
thanks
Rick..

[Shiny Hat]

I am going to Put a relay between the ignition coils and battery to increase the voltage to the coils.  This will make a huge difference in over all performance I believe based on readings I get from my digital voltage gauge.  Low voltage and fluctuating voltage is affecting overall performance. 

I have not done this yet to My Quota.  I did install a digital voltage gauge.  I can tell that the engine runs differently as the voltage reading changes from low 12 volt up to 14+ volts.  At idle when the engine is running, brake light on, headlight on, turn signal on, the voltage drops to 12 volt, the engine starts to stumble.  If I fully charge the battery to 14 volt, start and run the engine, the first few minutes the bike runs great. Then the battery starts loosing voltage down into the 12 volts and starts running poorly.  I have replaced the voltage regulator 3 times and still get the same variance in voltage at the battery and same changes in engine performance.  Unfortunately, the Quota does not have room for a battery with more amperage.

I have seen the same poor performance with my California engine.  Except less often because it has a larger battery. 

And, The ignition key switch can vibrate the contacts causing poor ignition performance.

  Found this from a manufacture of ignition systems. "Once the horsepower curve was established, a battery was attached just to power the ignition system. This battery was not aided by a charging system, either. That battery was slowly drained after each run and the engine horsepower levels were noted. The first run was at 13.6 volts, and then backup runs were at 12.8 and 12.1 volts.

When the next dyno pull was run at 11.4 volts, the motor started running rough. A further drop in voltage to 11.1 volts caused even more disruption in the firing of the motor, and the run was stopped to avoid hurting the motor. It would seem, according to this test, that when the battery reaches a level of less than 11.5 volts, the motor will not only begin to lose power and run erratically, but also may cause damage to engine components."

That’s great information. What I was used to is the injectors getting power from the ECU which was regulated and stabilized in the 11.? range, I don’t remember the exact voltage but below standard battery and charging voltages to take the voltage side fluctuation out of the equation. I looked at a print and injectors, coils, fuel pump all powered through a relay connected to the battery. I can see how this can play a big role in engine performance and operation. You can do a voltage drop test if you think any of the wires, relay or terminals are suspect. You can also use jumper cables connected to a car battery, don’t start the car, to see if it makes a difference.