V85TT -- Found the oil leak... sort of...

[DesertPilot]

For the past 6000 miles, my V85TT has been using something like a quart of oil every 2000 miles.  This seems excessive, and adds an unnecessary amount of character to the bike.  I checked the airbox to make sure the engine wasn't blowing oil, did a compression and leakdown test to make sure there wasn't anything too terribly wrong inside the cylinders and those were all fine.  Finally, I sprinkled flour on the outside of the engine -- King Arthur flour, because it's important to do these things with style! -- to look for leaks.

Oil is indeed appearing along the crankcase separation between the front two bolts (see below).  Darn.  I've been unable to tell whether the crankcase gasket has gone bad or it's leaking from  the alternator cover seal, then flowing back along the crankcase separation because oil can do things like that to challenge our minds and keep our lives exciting.  Needless to say, I'm hoping it's the latter, because that would be a lot less traumatic to deal with.

Has anyone else had an oil leak in this general area?  If so, what was the cause, and how dreadful was it to fix?

[Dirk_S]

A whole quart of oil is seeping out from the crankcase gasket? Wonder if you can just cross-torque the bolts with the engine in frame?

I’d be curious what inside the bell housing is like.

[DesertPilot]

A whole quart of oil is seeping out from the crankcase gasket? Wonder if you can just cross-torque the bolts with the engine in frame?

I’d be curious what inside the bell housing is like.

A lot can be accomplished in 2000 miles.  My Tiger 800 developed a similar leak in the sump gasket.  It was barely visible to the eye -- even a good shop took several tries to find it -- but managed to weep a quart of oil every 2000 miles.

I checked all the crankcase bolts, they were tight, and I really can't imagine how a seal that's squooshed down that hard and doesn't have to hold pressure could leak.  The alternator cover bolts on the other hand... some of the ones I could reach without pulling a zillion things off the front of the engine might not have been quite as tight as they were supposed to be.  I could grit my teeth, order a new seal, drain the oil, pull things off the front of the engine (see above about 'a zillion'), pull the alternator cover, and swap in the new seal, but my dentist warned me to stop gritting my teeth lest I damage the enamel, so I thought I might ask around here to benefit from the experience of wiser minds than mine before I contemplate the defying my dentist.

[bigbikerrick]

I think a quart in 2K miles, is alot of oil. If it were all leaking from that area, there would be alot more oil all over the place. I think some of that quart must be getting burned somehow.  How do the spark plugs look?
Rick.

[Dirk_S]

A lot can be accomplished in 2000 miles.  My Tiger 800 developed a similar leak in the sump gasket.  It was barely visible to the eye -- even a good shop took several tries to find it -- but managed to weep a quart of oil every 2000 miles.

I checked all the crankcase bolts, they were tight, and I really can't imagine how a seal that's squooshed down that hard and doesn't have to hold pressure could leak.  The alternator cover bolts on the other hand... some of the ones I could reach without pulling a zillion things off the front of the engine might not have been quite as tight as they were supposed to…

Right—they may be rtght, but perhaps the case might not be seated squarely. You could back each bolt off a tick, then retorque, again, at cross-pattern.

Time to pop out the torque wrench!

[DesertPilot]

I think a quart in 2K miles, is alot of oil. If it were all leaking from that area, there would be alot more oil all over the place. I think some of that quart must be getting burned somehow.  How do the spark plugs look?
Rick.

Plugs look fine, there's no obvious carbon buildup on the exhaust, and the bike entirely fails to generate a smoke screen to foil enemy spies.  There was also no oil on the inside of the bash plate or visible oil streak on the underside of the bike.  I too would expect drips all over the garage floor from a leak, but my old Tiger, which also leaked at that rate, was also drip-free.  A quart every 2-3000 miles may be the grey area that almost but doesn't quite manage to drip.

Weirdly, my first V85TT also began to use oil at precisely the same time and rate before it got taken out by that fellow with the Mercedes SUV and a casual attitude toward stop signs.  I've started watching for more Mercedes SUVs, in case this is the result of some ancient curse...

[Vagrant]

What year bike is it?
If a 19/20 you have bad rings regardless of what the tests showed. There is no way that tiny leak is using a quart in 2000 miles.

[jcctx]

You have most likely already did this, but just in case I would surely check those to bolts on either side of the leak??????????????

[DesertPilot]

What year bike is it?
If a 19/20 you have bad rings regardless of what the tests showed. There is no way that tiny leak is using a quart in 2000 miles.

That could well be the case.  Bad oil rings wouldn't show up in a leak-down test, and might even improve compression -- they certainly did on several of English sports cars I've owned over the years   The thing is, there is a visible leak, so bad rings would mean that two problems showed up at around the same time.  This is most certainly possible, but... heck.. one can go mad thinking about these things

I may just keep an eye on it for the next 4,000 miles (or two quarts, as the case may be), then let the shop sort it out when the 18,000 mile service interval comes up.

[Vagrant]

Year???
Mine was a 20 with bad rings, as were most I've heard of. But there is a V7-850 either a 21 or 22 sitting in Atlanta right now waiting for rings at 15,000 miles so they still don't have their S''' together yet.

[bigbikerrick]

I think Vagrant is on the right track. How would one come up with a diffinitive diagnosis? Is the only way to pull the cylinders, and visually inspect,or somehow measure the oil control rings?
Rick.

[DesertPilot]

...Is the only way to pull the cylinders, and visually inspect,or somehow measure the oil control rings?

That does become the question at this point.  Without a diagnosis I could be reduced to Slapping On New Parts And Hoping For The Best (SOPAHFTB, which would be pronounced something like, "Sopahfutub?").  Been there, done that, on other machines, back when the world was young.

[michaell32]

If the oil rings were bad I would expect to see signs of it on the spark plug.

[DesertPilot]

If the oil rings were bad I would expect to see signs of it on the spark plug.

So would I, but the plugs looked fine when I pulled them to do the compression and leak down tests.  And I've been careful not to overfill the oil because... well... Guzzis    But the bike still used 500ml of oil over the past 1100 miles.  That oil must be going somewhere.  It is a very great mystery.

[jrt]

Maybe use a different brand of flour? 
Sorry- I got nothing here. 

You aren't seeing any oil buildup at the bell housing or on the rear tire, I suspect- otherwise, you would have mentioned it.  If you are leaking 1 L every 2 K miles (I hate mixing metric/English, but here we are), I would expect some to make it to the rear wheel.  I think others might be on to something with the oil rings, but I have never heard of that one before. 

[DesertPilot]

Maybe use a different brand of flour? 
Sorry- I got nothing here. 

You aren't seeing any oil buildup at the bell housing or on the rear tire, I suspect- otherwise, you would have mentioned it.  If you are leaking 1 L every 2 K miles (I hate mixing metric/English, but here we are), I would expect some to make it to the rear wheel.  I think others might be on to something with the oil rings, but I have never heard of that one before.

I crawled all over the bike (or around and under it, as the case may be) pulled off the shrouds and heat shields (remember to replace the latter before reentry so your spacecraft doesn't burn up in the atmosphere!) and there were no drips, pools, puddles, or streaks of the kind I recall so vividly from many long years of English Vehicle Ownership -- in particular, I spotted nothing under the bell housing, which I made a point of checking to make sure I wasn't about to encounter the Oil On The Rear Wheel Might Just Possibly Affect A Bike's handiing phenomenon so beloved by the owners of old Nortons.  There was also no oil in the airbox and spark plugs were a bland and unremarkable, "The electrodes may be past their first bloom of youth, but else what else do you expect after 12,000 miles?" color.  The only sign of oil ending up where it shouldn't was that bit on the front left hand side of the crankcase.  The only options I've been able to think of are

1) That tiny weep is enough to explain the oil consumption
2) The engine is burning oil, but not enough to show up on the plugs
3) Some blatantly obvious thing I'm too oblivious to notice
4) Oil leaks when the bike is running in a way that quite implausibly fails to leave any external  trace
5) Some combination of the above
6) Aliens

[Bulldog9]

What year bike is it?
If a 19/20 you have bad rings regardless of what the tests showed. There is no way that tiny leak is using a quart in 2000 miles.

Agreed. The seam is seeping oil, no way that is the source of a quart loss  Oil is likey pushing past rings and being burnt, but not enough to foul logs or carbon up the combustion chamber.

OP are you running 10w60 synthetic? My Stornello burns the Motul at that rate, but Not the Liquimoly

[Vagrant]

In the case of my 20 v85 it started running somewhat crappy at about 15000 miles. It continued to get worse as time went on. The dealer switched maps. I tried the then experimental Beattle map, and it wouldn't run at all, refusing to take any gas. NOTE, nothing to do with his map. Finally, the dealer called Piagio, and they had it on PADS while listening to it run and instantly told them to pull the heads. The dealer said he had never seen so much carbon on the heads, valves and pistons. I never saw the rings, but from the ones others have posted it looks like 1/4" to 3/8" end gap.Yet the plugs were always clean. I assume it has something to do with how synthetic oil burns.
Is it under warranty yet?

[Moparnut72]

I am going with #2 also with some influence from #9. I think from all you have said about what you have checked #2 is the only plausible reason. Good oils will burn pretty clean. I used to race two stroke outboard motors. We ran our motors with a fairly hefty oil ratio and whenever I pulled the head it was amazing how few deposits were on the piston and virtually nothing on the head. I used a brand of 2 stroke oil that had the best rating for not leaving deposits. I am guessing that is what you are seeing, that very small seep cannot account for that much oil loss.
kk

[DesertPilot]

I am indeed running synthetic.  I wasn't aware that burnt so cleanly.  And that would be preferable to a leak in the crankcase seal.  Since the bike is no longer under warranty, pulling the cylinders to put in new rings would almost certainly be less of a financial shock than dropping the engine to split the crank and install a new seal ick.

It's sounding like the Keep An Eye On It, Carry Spare Oil And A Funnel On Long Trips, Grab Another Quart To Tide Me Through Until The 18,000 Mile Service, Then Dump The Problem In The Shop's Lap plan may be the way to go.  I can live with this for another 3957 miles.  I'll keep everyone posted as the story unfolds, and thanks to all of you for your advice!

[Cam3512]

I have one of the first '20 V85's to hit our shores.  Mine would also get moist with oil in that exact SAME spot.  Not enough to even drip though, so no way you're losing a quart from there.  I cleaned the spot off really well with denatured alcohol, then used "wicking" loctite green on a swab and soaked that area. Did a few applications with it and no more leak. Bone dry.  The green loctite wicks into the gasket and seals it up.  Try this, and let it sit overnight before heating up the engine.

I've NEVER heard of bad rings, and Jim Hamlin has serviced it since new.  He would know.  Everyone I talk to with a V85 loses some oil after it's filled, myself included.  No idea where it goes, but stops when the level is in the middle of the sight glass. 

[DesertPilot]

...The green loctite wicks into the gasket and seals it up.

My my!  I didn't even know that existed!  Of course, I  didn't even know it was possible to fashion primitive stone tools and master the use of fire, so I can perhaps be excused for missing some later technology...

[Cam3512]

My my!  I didn't even know that existed!  Of course, I  didn't even know it was possible to fashion primitive stone tools and master the use of fire, so I can perhaps be excused for missing some later technology...

It’s so easy, even a caveman can do it!

[Chethro]

My 2020 has used a quart every~5000miles or so since new. Plugs always look good, no oil in the air box or air box drains but exhaust is dark black and a bit sooty. Borescoping the exhaust chamber each maintenance cycle has revealed no excessive carbon build up. Bike runs fine. If it ever starts running bad I will have a shop install new cylinders, Pistons etc.MG sells a kit. 

[Bulldog9]

I have one of the first '20 V85's to hit our shores.  Mine would also get moist with oil in that exact SAME spot.  Not enough to even drip though, so no way you're losing a quart from there.  I cleaned the spot off really well with denatured alcohol, then used "wicking" loctite green on a swab and soaked that area. Did a few applications with it and no more leak. Bone dry.  The green loctite wicks into the gasket and seals it up.  Try this, and let it sit overnight before heating up the engine.

I've NEVER heard of bad rings, and Jim Hamlin has serviced it since new.  He would know.  Everyone I talk to with a V85 loses some oil after it's filled, myself included.  No idea where it goes, but stops when the level is in the middle of the sight glass.

Cam, based on Ropers recommendation, I was able to seal the leaking grub screws (cross drilled oil ports that are drilled and plugged with small grub screws)  around the exhaust ports on my Norge a couple years ago. Is amazing stuff. It sealed 3 of the 4 leakers.

[tommy2cyl]

FWIW Desert Pilot:
1. I took delivery of my V85 in July 2019/so first year bike.
2. Oil choice: Motul 4T 7100  10 W - 60 100% Synthetic
3. I have a slight weep in the exact place you have shown in your picture.
4. 179 lbs compression check each side  11/04/2022
5. No smoke, no drips, plugs looked good when replaced at 13,185 miles

Oil Consumption: 3,000 ml = 3.1 quarts @ 20,450 miles.

[DesertPilot]

FWIW Desert Pilot:
1. I took delivery of my V85 in July 2019/so first year bike.
2. Oil choice: Motul 4T 7100  10 W - 60 100% Synthetic
3. I have a slight weep in the exact place you have shown in your picture.
4. 179 lbs compression check each side  11/04/2022
5. No smoke, no drips, plugs looked good when replaced at 13,185 miles

Oil Consumption: 3,000 ml = 3.1 quarts @ 20,450 miles.

Mine used a mere 8 oz  in the first 7940 miles.  Then consumption started to climb, from a qt every 6000 mi at 7940 miles to one every 2400 at 14023 miles.  Compression when I checked at  10,050 miles was 175 psi right side, 176 psi left on my compression tester.  Leak down was below the 10% lower measurement limit on my tester.  Plugs looked fine when I did the 12,000 mile service, but the exhaust is finally beginning to show signs of carbon build up, so the Bad Oil Rings Hypothesis becomes ever more plausible. 

The options seem to be

1) Pull the cylinders and do new rings myself.  I could, but my stamina for that sort of thing may not be as high as once it was.

2) Take it to the shop now.  I could do this too, but there seems no obvious reason to hurry.

3) Keep an eye on things until it hits 18,000 mile next year, then I take it to the shop and have them get it sorted and also do the 18,000 mile service.   Unless things change, this may remain the plan.

[Bison]

Hi Foks,
Interestingly, my 2023 V85tt has an oil weep from exactly the same spot, but there is no oil consumption problem, it doesn't seem to move in the sight glass at all. And, also interestingly, I only noticed it after it's first big service at 6500 miles, and Motul 10/60 was used?. I use Motul in my Norge too, and it has a very slight misting from the camshaft sensor hole?. I seems unlikely to me that a particular make of oil has slightly different viscosity when hot from say the same spec Castrol 10/60 that the factory recommends, and it could cause a slight misting?. I might change the oil and use the factory spec make of oil?, but I feel it's unlikely to be that, maybe worth a try though?.
To put the misting into context, after a ride of say 100 to 150 miles, there will be a drop of oil on the stud just in front and above the filler plug, and there will be a few spots on the footrest hanger. The engine number casting will be oily. No drips on the ground.
Tell me, does your bike have crash bars?, and has it been on it's left side?.
Alan.

[DesertPilot]

Hi Foks,
Interestingly, my 2023 V85tt has an oil weep from exactly the same spot, but there is no oil consumption problem, it doesn't seem to move in the sight glass at all. And, also interestingly, I only noticed it after it's first big service at 6500 miles, and Motul 10/60 was used?. I use Motul in my Norge too, and it has a very slight misting from the camshaft sensor hole?. I seems unlikely to me that a particular make of oil has slightly different viscosity when hot from say the same spec Castrol 10/60 that the factory recommends, and it could cause a slight misting?. I might change the oil and use the factory spec make of oil?, but I feel it's unlikely to be that, maybe worth a try though?.
To put the misting into context, after a ride of say 100 to 150 miles, there will be a drop of oil on the stud just in front and above the filler plug, and there will be a few spots on the footrest hanger. The engine number casting will be oily. No drips on the ground.
Tell me, does your bike have crash bars?, and has it been on it's left side?.
Alan.

I have the SW Motech crash bars that bolt to the frame rather than the engine because I wanted to be different.  The bike hasn't been down... yet... but given sufficient time and effort, I'm sure I can unlock this achievement 

[Bison]

Good morning from a sunny Scotland.
It went through my head that crash bars which mount onto the engine block could somehow stress the joint between the crankcases if the bike were laid down. Once again, unlikely.
I hope your ambition falls short of reality!, may you never lay your bike down, hehe, and if you do, let it be on soft grass!.
Alan.