2014 V7 Head Re-Torquing?

[mr_pacman]

I've got a 2014 V7 and I've noticed a few drops of oil about midway down the cylinder head on both sides. Doing some reading online, it looks like these should have been re-torqued at the dealer at around 600 miles as part of a regular service. I don't know if these ever were and wanted to try that first before I start digging into things more seriously.

Does anyone have a picture tutorial that they have done for this operation?  I'm not sure which bolts to loosen, what sequence to tighten them and the torque values.

Thanks
James

[Dirk_S]

These are the 5 nuts that connect to the 5 cylinder studs that hold your heads and cylinders in place (the top center nut is recessed, and you’ll need a deep socket to reach it).





I’d wait until a veteran wrencher or mechanic on here confirms my steps before proceeding, but this is how I roll:

Torque all of these nuts just to see how far they’re off.

Crack these puppies open 1/8-1/4 of a turn and retorque in a cross-cross pattern, keeping in mind that they have different torque values. Preferred to do in 2-or 3-step increments (I do near 75% torque spec for all, then just about, then final torque spec).

[Kev m]

Don't torque them from where they are, that wouldn't be accurate anyway.

Work on one at a time breaking it just loose from it's current position (yeah like 1/8-1/4 turn) and then tighten it from there before moving onto the next fastener until they have all been loosened and retorqued.

I'm not near my desk so I don't have access to the manuals for specs, but download one and look it up or maybe someone else will do that for you.

[John A]

I mark the nuts with a sharpie so I can see how much they moved. Just out of curiosity

[Kev m]

Don't torque them from where they are, that wouldn't be accurate anyway.

Work on one at a time breaking it just loose from it's current position (yeah like 1/8-1/4 turn) and then tighten it from there before moving onto the next fastener until they have all been loosened and retorqued.

I'm not near my desk so I don't have access to the manuals for specs, but download one and look it up or maybe someone else will do that for you.

Aww heck, I should have checked my archived messages. This is from 2013 just before I performed the first service on my V7 Stone:

Head  bolts should be backed off 1/8-1/4 turn before re-torque, and I go to 33ftlbs on the 4 big ones and 23ftlbs.  When you back them off you may hear them pop a bit, that is normal. I have seen them leak at 30-32ftlbs.

[sign216]

I wrote a guide based on the early V7 bikes.  Double-click on the photos to bring up the text.  https://www.flickr.com/photos/sign216/albums/72157627672086548/ 

[mr_pacman]

Thanks for all of the replies so far.  I've got a couple more questions and have annotated one of the pictures that @sign216 posted as a tutorial:





According to the Guzzi service manual that I found online for the 2014 V7-1

- Number 1 has a torque value of 20.65 lbs/ft
- Number 3 and 4 are 18.5 lbs/ft
- However, number 2 and 5 indicate they need to be pre-tightened to 18.5lb/ft and then tightened to 31 lb/ft

My question's are:
- Do I loosen all the fasteners first and then start the process or loosen one of them, and then tighten it to spec?
- What order (or criss cross pattern) do I do?
- Do I pre-tighten the 2 and 5 bolt first and then start on a criss cross pattern with 2 and 5 then getting the 31 lb/ft or, do I do the full criss cross pattern and pre-tighten the 2 and 5 bolt to 18.5lb/ft and then once the entire process is done, go back and re-torque those two at the 31lb/ft?

Thanks
James

[Kev m]

My question's are:
- Do I loosen all the fasteners first and then start the process or loosen one of them, and then tighten it to spec?
- What order (or criss cross pattern) do I do?
- Do I pre-tighten the 2 and 5 bolt first and then start on a criss cross pattern with 2 and 5 then getting the 31 lb/ft or, do I do the full criss cross pattern and pre-tighten the 2 and 5 bolt to 18.5lb/ft and then once the entire process is done, go back and re-torque those two at the 31lb/ft?

Thanks
James

I answered all this earlier, but failed to say the notes that I posted were the advice of TWO Guzzi mechanics (GuzziSteve and Roper).

So AGAIN -

Work on each one individually - crack it off 1/8 - 1/4, then tighten it to its value, then move to the next one.

In this way pattern and order don't matter because you've never fully released tension from the head.

But if it makes you happy I'd go in a crossing pattern, and do the 4 large fasteners first and the lower torque value smaller one last.

I don't know what manual you're looking at but the Engine V770IE manual published by Piaggio in 2012 as an update for the MKI motors (2012+ in EU/world markets, 2013+ in the US) only gives me the two values (other than the pre-tightening):

The FOUR large nuts are final value of 30.98 ft. lbs.  (GuzziSteve goes to 33 as I mentioned earlier)
The ONE small nut value is 20.65 ft. lbs. (again GuzziSteve goes to 23).

EDIT - Yeah, there are 4 nuts - two per side - I'm a dumbass - then there are 4 Column Nuts (cap nuts) - again 2 per side. They have different torque values.

that's all there is. Don't overthink it just for a retorque.

Let me know if you need me to email you a copy of this service manual or if you have further questions.

[Dirk_S]

- Do I pre-tighten the 2 and 5 bolt first and then start on a criss cross pattern with 2 and 5 then getting the 31 lb/ft or, do I do the full criss cross pattern and pre-tighten the 2 and 5 bolt to 18.5lb/ft and then once the entire process is done, go back and re-torque those two at the 31lb/ft?

If it helps, I struck through my note about torquing in stages. I don’t know why I was thinking this, but that’s only done when you’re installing, not when you’re doing the re-torque adjustment.

[mr_pacman]

I answered all this earlier, but failed to say the notes that I posted were the advice of TWO Guzzi mechanics (GuzziSteve and Roper).

So AGAIN -

Work on each one individually - crack it off 1/8 - 1/4, then tighten it to its value, then move to the next one.

In this way pattern and order don't matter because you've never fully released tension from the head.

But if it makes you happy I'd go in a crossing pattern, and do the 4 large fasteners first and the lower torque value smaller one last.

I don't know what manual you're looking at but the Engine V770IE manual published by Piaggio in 2012 as an update for the MKI motors (2012+ in EU/world markets, 2013+ in the US) only gives me the two values (other than the pre-tightening):

The FOUR large nuts are final value of 30.98 ft. lbs.  (GuzziSteve goes to 33 as I mentioned earlier)
The ONE small nut value is 20.65 ft. lbs. (again GuzziSteve goes to 23).

that's all there is. Don't overthink it just for a retorque.

Let me know if you need me to email you a copy of this service manual or if you have further questions.

Thanks Kev,

I wonder if they updated the manual as this is pulled from the 2013 Engine Service Manual where is shows 3 different torque specs for the 3 different types of fasteners (not including the 4th pre-tightening rating)

Numbers 4,5 and 6 on the diagram are the ones being referred to with the single small nut (#6) being at the 20.65 ft.lbs, the two large nuts (#4) being at 30.98 ft.lbs and then the two other large nuts (#5) having a much lower rating at 18.44 ft.lbs. 

Any thoughts on the #5 nuts being such a low torque value compared to previous manuals that show the 30.98 rating?

[DoubleGuzzi]

I don’t know why I was thinking this...

It's an age thang!

[Kev m]

Thanks Kev,

I wonder if they updated the manual as this is pulled from the 2013 Engine Service Manual where is shows 3 different torque specs for the 3 different types of fasteners (not including the 4th pre-tightening rating)

Numbers 4,5 and 6 on the diagram are the ones being referred to with the single small nut (#6) being at the 20.65 ft.lbs, the two large nuts (#4) being at 30.98 ft.lbs and then the two other large nuts (#5) having a much lower rating at 18.44 ft.lbs. 

Any thoughts on the #5 nuts being such a low torque value compared to previous manuals that show the 30.98 rating?

OH SHIT - it's been too long. I just rechecked a bunch of the parts and service manuals and finally saw a photo that set me straight.

I should have looked closer. YOU'RE RIGHT - and I don't know why my notes were off too but forget what I said earlier about the torque values cause I'M WRONG!. YES THREE different types of fasteners.

The one top center is a smaller nut - tighten it to 20.65 ft. lbs.
The two on the bottom "Column Nuts" are like cap screws though I think the parts diagrams are still partially outdated from the Breva 750* - YES YOU ARE RIGHT - tighten them to 18.44 ft. lbs.
The two on top of the rocker assembly studs (M10 x 1.5) - tighten them to 30.98 ft. lbs.

Otherwise same advice.

I actually would be tempted to work from lowest to highest torque, but either way touch one fastener at a time - break loose, tighten to spec, move on to next fastener. But I'm almost certain it doesn't matter if you're only loosening/tightening one at a time.


*Note: On the 2TB motors those two column nuts were exposed all the time outboard of the smaller valve cover so they had caps installed in them. But the 1TB motors use a larger head and larger valve cover where those column nuts are inside bores and covered by the valve cover so I'm pretty sure they don't use the caps anymore.

[mr_pacman]

OH SHIT - it's been too long. I just rechecked a bunch of the parts and service manuals and finally saw a photo that set me straight.

I should have looked closer. YOU'RE RIGHT - and I don't know why my notes were off too but forget what I said earlier about the torque values cause I'M WRONG!. YES THREE different types of fasteners.

The one top center is a smaller nut - tighten it to 20.65 ft. lbs.
The two on the bottom "Column Nuts" are like cap screws though I think the parts diagrams are still partially outdated from the Breva 750* - YES YOU ARE RIGHT - tighten them to 18.44 ft. lbs.
The two on top of the rocker assembly studs (M10 x 1.5) - tighten them to 30.98 ft. lbs.

Otherwise same advice.

I actually would be tempted to work from lowest to highest torque, but either way touch one fastener at a time - break loose, tighten to spec, move on to next fastener. But I'm almost certain it doesn't matter if you're only loosening/tightening one at a time.


*Note: On the 2TB motors those two column nuts were exposed all the time outboard of the smaller valve cover so they had caps installed in them. But the 1TB motors use a larger head and larger valve cover where those column nuts are inside bores and covered by the valve cover so I'm pretty sure they don't use the caps anymore.

Thanks for confirming Kev. I'm starting to feel more comfortable with this procedure now that you have reviewed everything.

I think this is the last question I have.....what are your thoughts on the 2 bolts (the big ones on the rocker assembly) that require a "pre tighten" to 18.5 ft.lbs and then a final tighten to 31 ft.lbs.

You think I tighten those first to 18.5, then do the rest of the bolts and then finish off with them at 31 or am I making this too complicated and I should just torque them to 31 ft.lbs right off the bat and be done with it?

[Kev m]

Thanks for confirming Kev. I'm starting to feel more comfortable with this procedure now that you have reviewed everything.

I think this is the last question I have.....what are your thoughts on the 2 bolts (the big ones on the rocker assembly) that require a "pre tighten" to 18.5 ft.lbs and then a final tighten to 31 ft.lbs.

You think I tighten those first to 18.5, then do the rest of the bolts and then finish off with them at 31 or am I making this too complicated and I should just torque them to 31 ft.lbs right off the bat and be done with it?

No need to go as low as the pre torque. That's when installing new gaskets and making sure everything is compressing evenly. With cracking and retightening one at a time you never fully release the clamp load and just ensure it's fully snugged by the end.

[mr_pacman]

No need to go as low as the pre torque. That's when installing new gaskets and making sure everything is compressing evenly. With cracking and retightening one at a time you never fully release the clamp load and just ensure it's fully snugged by the end.

Perfect, thanks to everyone who help out on this. Even jobs that appear to be as simple as this usually end up going sideways for me so I'll post back with , hopefully, a success story or more questions asking for help on something I buggered up.  I'll be sure to do a valve adjustment after I re-torque and hopefully that will solve this small oil weeping on the cylinder fins.

[Vagrant]

I did all of the big ones to 33#, I'm sure the 18# is a misprint except on the small dia. one. Look at a 2015 or 16 book. Same set up and the last year for it.

[Kev m]

I did all of the big ones to 33#, I'm sure the 18# is a misprint except on the small dia. one. Look at a 2015 or 16 book. Same set up and the last year for it.

I can't find an ENGINE manual for the V7II - the only one I have is a chassis manual so it doesn't delve into engine tightening torques. Could be they never bothered to make one just like the V7C used the previous Breva 750 manual.

However, it appears the V7C manual DID include tightening torques, and they match what the B750 said.

And ironically they ALSO match what my notes said from GuzziSteve and Roper - i.e. THOSE MANUALS only list two sets of values, the higher one presumably for all 4 nuts on each head whether they are the exposed nuts on the rocker assemblies or the "Column Nuts" on the bottom half of the head:

Breva 750 Engine Manual:

Cylinder heads-barrels to crankcase fixing nut (M10) 40*42 Nm
Cylinder heads-barrels to crankcase fixing nut (M8) 28*30 Nm

V7C Chassis Manual:

Heads cylinders to crankcase fixing nut (M10) 40 - 42 Nm (29.50 - 30.97 lbs ft)
Cylinder heads-barrels to crankcase fixing nut (M8) 28 - 30 Nm  (20.65 - 22.12 lbs ft)

We can't rely on anything later since they changed to the Hemi heads so who knows what else they changed.

But I guess the argument can be made for using just the two torques.

Or, and I'll wonder this one out loud - is the lower value on the two lower "Column Nuts" the REASON some heads leak? Did the shops that follow the new manual leave those a little loose and the old time shops that just did what they'd always done on Heron heads meant they didn't leak?

And did I blindly follow GuzziSteve and Roper because I trust them? - hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmm


Sorry PacMan if we're just muddying the waters.

[Vagrant]

I am not know both sides stopped leaking at 33#. At about 18000 miles. If it an older bike I’d trust Steve and Pete.

[mr_pacman]

I called the local Guzzi dealer today and they haven't done a re-torque on a V7-I in a few years, but spoke with the mechanic who looked it up in his files and he suggested there are 3 different ratings which aligns with the manual I have.

NOw I just need to figure out the right valve clearances and I'm good to go

[Kev m]

I called the local Guzzi dealer today and they haven't done a re-torque on a V7-I in a few years, but spoke with the mechanic who looked it up in his files and he suggested there are 3 different ratings which aligns with the manual I have.

NOw I just need to figure out the right valve clearances and I'm good to go

One of the reasons they haven't done one was the need ended with the end of the Heron Head so it's been almost a decade.

[sign216]

One of the reasons they haven't done one was the need ended with the end of the Heron Head so it's been almost a decade.

I believe the early V7, was the last road going vehicle in the world to have a Heron head. 

I'm still rockin' mine, and loving it.