The Guzzi Virus Spreads: V50 II

[DoubleGuzzi]

Well I finally grabbed a V50; not the version that I was really looking for (nearly bought a III NATO with ignition issues) and I paid over what I was looking to spend. 
It's a bit of a 'bucket' and as usual with bikes, general photos tend to make things look better than reality. The engine paint can't make up its mind whether to hang in there and the frame is bare in quite a few places. The silver is losing the fight against naked alloy, when it comes to the wheels. A large part of the front mudguard paint has departed and the paint has numerous worn areas - mostly left sidepanel.
Forewarned, a carb is not holding onto the fuel and is making pretty colours on the damp driveway. (I gave the bike a reasonably thorough wash before anything else.) I have had it fired up on one cylinder for a short period, though the "choke" enrichment lever wont stay in the start position.
It was sold as a restoration project.

My missus seems bemused that I'm looking to replace the Breva with this. Time will tell.

Later in the day, I hauled out the carbs (hope I can squeeze 'em in the same way!). They're kinda grotty. I've got the left carb ready to go back on, having polished up the float needle and seat, along with a polish of the pivot pin and a general clean of the jets etc. I'm half-way doing the right one, which was even more grotty.
Dunno what's going on with the enrichment lever: there's no play in the cables, that I can tell, and the adjusters are backed off to the max. I'll try stripping the body where the lever is and see if I spot anything. I polished the brass plungers for good measure and noted the rubber stoppers seem intact with indents from being seated.
At least these carbs are simpler than the Monster 600 ones, which I stripped down numerous times.

Some soul added in the ubiquitous rubber extension to the leading edge of the rear mudguard. As to when this was done.. The rear of the engine is worse than what the Breva was and dirt, mud, whatever is caked on back there! I just hope that the clutch pivot pin isn't seized like on the Breva! 

As is frequently the case. the exhaust header pipes are a mess. Far too may people just don't bother taking care of anything other than the bodywork: the bike is washed down like it's a four wheeler. "Aww, it's only an exhaust/centrestand/wheel hub"

It's got new Dunlop K82 tyres (weird things) and new battery - that's the good news. Being a "Historic" class, there's an exemption for road tax and MOT, so that saves some cost. I may voluntarily take it for an MOT however, for 'peace of mind", depending on how much I need to spend to get the bike roadworthy.

[guzzisteve]

I had a Red III from 83, traded a Fiat Spider for it w/blown hd gskt & a short block just rebuilt. 2yrs before I had traded my 80 SP for the Spider. My friend wanted my bike real bad & had just did paint & top on Spider. His wife quit riding and I got her 1200mi V50. I sold it for new money. Was very sweet bike, Euro carb set up ran great.

Yours looks normal for V50's

[DoubleGuzzi]

My Z200 (of similar era) had a single front disc brake, operated by cable (just like some modern day cycles)! This V50 front brake feels less powerful, barely stops the wheel and has zero feel. It's like the brake pads are made of wood, even with the benefit of braided lines. Some investigation required, with perhaps a change of pad material; organic GG for feel or sintered for 'grip'.. Hmm. At least the linked brakes seem like they may slow/stop the bike. Not an unheard of situation, from what I've seen on forums. Noticed this evening that the rust was already forming on the discs, after washing it earlier. Yup, it's a Guzzi alright - just how I remembered them, back in the day.   

I hoisted up the gaiters and the stanchions look good, with no signs of oil - if there's any in them. Was gonna use the dregs of fork oil from doing the V7III to freshen them up. Yay, got a use for the ~200ml that was left in the bottle: does 70ml/leg of fluid really do much in the way of damping? (Semi-rhetorical.)

[DoubleGuzzi]

The saga continues..
The right carb was seriously gunged up, with a totally blocked pilot jet, restricted emulsion tube, and varnish encrusted enrichment tube. No wonder it wasn't firing up on that cylinder. Poked out and cleaned up, the carbs went back in. It took a bit of wiggling & juggling, with some Vaseline on the rubbers (ooer, missus) for good measure. I re-angled the fuel inlets and 'choke' feeds, for less sharp entry points. Now, at least there is some slight play in the choke cables. I had carefully used a file, to level off the plastic choke lever and now it stays open long enough to warm the bike up.
Having drained out the remaining urine coloured fuel, I reconnected the crossover fuel lines, which the PO had already replaced recently. In went a pint or so of petrol and I turned the taps to reserve. Fuel pissed out under the bike - drat! Och well, that'll kill some weeds on the driveway! Hmm, a bit of feeling around seems to have pinpointed the leak to the crossover pipe, somewhere between the metal junction and left carb banjo. I hauled the thing out and after messing about with hose clips etc., directly connected each carb individually to each tap, as a test. No leaks - hurrah!

Couldn't contain the excitement, so cutting down on some minor intermediate steps (check tickover etc.), I suited up and went for a 5 miles rural jaunt in the local countryside. The bike pulled strongly up hill, with no hiccups or flat spots. There's no hunting on a steady throttle and there is at least some urgency to acceleration. No spits or backfires on the overrun and pulls cleanly from ~2000rpm. What a result!
Handling is interesting, though I need to check tyre pressures and the front end feels 'loose' - a later static check didn't show up anything untoward
The front brake, as previously noted, is virtually non-existent though thankfully the linked ones are fine, so I ventured as high as an indicated 65mph, briefly.
I managed to gain some free play in the clutch cable, whilst trundling along. The take up point was about 1/2" from the handlebar!! Zero play - oops, I should've noticed that beforehand. I do hope that the pushrod ain't cooked and the bearing hasn't collapsed.

Back in the driveway, I struggled to pull the bike back to the garage. The linked brake discs were kinda toasty - far too much for that short journey. I went inside to change out of my clobber and let the discs cool down. It turns out that there was zero play in the brake rod to master cylinder; likely causing drag of the pads. Not good. Off with the sidepanel, to adjust the rod length and lo & behold there was no split pin on the clevis - yikes! Needless to say that I shortened the rod for some play and used a small R-clip from my limited stash.

All in all, a fairly successful weekend. 

[Tom]

Throwing this in for clarification.     Good read.   

gro·dy
[ˈɡrōdē]
adjective
US ENGLISH
informal
grody (adjective) · grodier (comparative adjective) · grodiest (superlative adjective)
very unpleasant; disgusting:
"an old man with grody yellow teeth" · "by itself, buttermilk tastes pretty grody" · "think of those 80s pics of everyone in denim—grody to the max!"

[DoubleGuzzi]

..
US ENGLISH
informal
grody (adjective) · grodier (comparative adjective) · grodiest (superlative adjective)
very unpleasant; disgusting:
..

From Wiktionary

Clipping of grotesque +‎ -y. Piecewise doublet of grody, the American equivalent. Compare Middle English groti, grooti (“slimy, muddy”), from Old English grotiġ (“earthy, dirty”) (modern dialectal English groaty, Scots grotty), which is equivalent to groat +‎ -y.

Guess which version I was using. 

[Tom]

    

[DoubleGuzzi]

Today was an investigation into the ineffective left front brake..

Off with the tank first. That was fun: some eejit had fitted the rubber strap upside down! I removed the pin to allow more flexibility and managed to get the strap off with the help of a long thin screwdriver. On to braking stuff.

There was zero sign of grease around the master cylinder and the clevis pin was seized onto the actuating arm. Removing the indicators relay on the right side of the frame allows access to the 'blind side'. A few squirts of penetrating fluid and some careful whacks back & forth and the clevis was loose again, eventually. Cleaned up, rubbed down and greased the pin went back in.
The brake cable was nicely free in movement, though I did drip in some 3-in-1 oil and removed some very light rusting from the exposed inner cable.
I discovered the main reason for the gummy feeling of the front brake - the lever was seriously gunged up from grease being put in/onto it without removing any old stuff. 10 minutes later, after cleaning and lubing the action was much better.

The PO had replaced the brake pads fairly recently, though hadn't bothered to clean up the securing pin nor the spring clip pins. The latter are kinda worn with steps in their taper but I'll see if cleaning them up and smoothing them has helped. A wipe around with brake cleaner, of the pins, springs, caliper and pads. meant it was time to reattach the front brake.

A static test shows a marked improvement, so It'll be interesting to see how the next test ride goes. Watch this space.

[DoubleGuzzi]

A wee change from the wall of text but..
I hope a moderator doesn't scold me for the gratuitous semi-naked pics! 
The sun was out (pretty rare around here) so it was "Taps-Aff"..






I gave the frame a quick scrape of the loose rusty bits and a wipe down, then on with some Hammerite Smooth. This ain't gonna be a show piece bike - at least not in my tenure.

I managed to snap a bolt trying to tighten the loose silencers, so decided it was time for a cup of Joe and a break away (bad pun!), for a short while anyways. Some time later: silencers tightened up with replacement bolts.

[DoubleGuzzi]

Didn't have much choice where I parked for a short while today..



Fortunately we weren't far from home and missus escorted me (with hazard lights on) for a few miles at 30mph. When I turned off the main road, it was apparent that the tyre was totally flat. Missus went home and brought back the car, with various pumps. It wouldn't blow up at all so I trundled back, sitting partially on the petrol tank, at a max. speed of 15mph on the straights.
Jeez, that took me back about 4 decades. I think that the inner tube is shredded.

[DoubleGuzzi]

Well off came the wheel and it made sense to check the clutch release bearing, whilst it was partially stripped down.. (excuse the poor pic.)

 
When rotating the rear wheel, there was this weird noise. I suspected that it was some solidified puncture preventor, though couldn't figure out why even a shredded inner tube would allow it to circulate inside the tyre. Off to my local car mechanic, who also changes tyres. That was a new one: the noise was a compact tyre lever!!! The inner tube did have a hole in it and puncture preventor was seeping out.  I had pre-empted  tyre removal by buying a new inner tube - just as well.

Time to take a look at the clutch release bearing. The pic shows the engine rear AFTER quite extensive cleaning - previously the gear change clevis was hidden in grime, for example.


The good news is that the release bearing seems in decent condition. The pushrod has some slight signs of overheating but looks OK too. Additionally, the clutch arm clevis wasn't seized and after some "gentle" persuasion, I got it out, to clean and regrease. I prefer an R-clip to replace the buckled split pin. I reset the adjustments and discovered a washer had snapped in the clutch lever. Now with that replaced and everything cleaned and grease the clutch action is much better/lighter. The lever's pivot is a standard Allen bolt however, rather than a shouldered pin, so there's still room for some improvement.

The exhaust headers have been nipping my head, since receiving the bike but they are in a pretty bad (actually ugly) shape. The chrome is well past its prime and had been black over-painted, which is unsurprisingly peeling off along a lot of the pipes. There is more than a significant amount of pitting. Hmm, I'm not really a fan of exhaust wrap (sorry, visually it does nothing for me) but needs must and I sourced 20m of the stuff for just over £10. A rattle can of UHT/VHT paint would cost more. For some reason, I didn't fancy black, so..

[DoubleGuzzi]

It became time to investigate the front suspension..



What a strange design these forks are.  Usefully, they have drain bolts for the fork oil/ATF but it's not possible to fill them without first removing the clocks and their retaining pins. The result being, the stanchions are released from the fork legs, effectively partially stripping the forks. Weird!
Oh well, I may as well take them apart and check the internals..
Discoveries will be added later, should there be any interest, or not. Suffice to say, I'm not surprised that the front end felt strange and under damped.

.. Continuing on from the strange design: damper rods at the top, springs at the bottom, tickled by only 70ml  of originally ATF.
One leg bled out about the prescribed amount of fluid, the other not much more than a dribble of a about 20ml. Water ingress had played its part in rusting up the damper rods a little, though nothing major thankfully. The sludge in the bottom of each fork leg was quite something to behold. Both springs have surface rust and one in particular quite extensive, covering about a third of its length. I managed to clean both up reasonably well. On the worst rusty leg, the spring retaining circlip fell apart into two bits and one of the attachment eyelets had mysteriously vanished.  Certainly explains why one leg split apart easier than the other. I found a suitable replacement in my stash - not identical but close enough.

As mentioned elsewhere, I used the remainder of the 15w fork oil that I had bought for my V7 but decided to put in 90ml per fork leg. (I'm sure I read somewhere that the Monza uses 100ml.) IMHO, fork oil is an improvement over ATF due to additives specific for the application. Just my reasoning.

Speaking of weirdness, ominously the bike came with a new set of aftermarket fork seals which I intended to fit. The existing seals are double height (approx.) with no retainer clips - very strange. They are pretty firm in place, when attempting to gently prise one out, so I thought "sod it" and left them as is. Too risky!? The stanchions are in really good condition along the length of travel with very minimal pitting on the worst leg and no signs of any fluid leakage. Ach, it's only a small amount of fork oil, should I need to strip the forks again. 

Back together, I took the bike for a 6 mile spin around some bumpy local roads, up to just above the legal limit (shh.) Seemed pretty good and upon lifting up the gaiters, there were no signs of fluid leaks. Good result, for now. I've since taken a longer spin on a smoother, twisty road and there is a marked improvement, however I don't see me scraping pegs any time soon. Steering and 'give' are predictable and more than adequate given the age and type of bike.

[paulbricey]

For front end I think Gutsibits can still get the (cheaper) SEBAC front dampers...I fitted FAC but they are way priceyer...while you are in there it's worth checking * greasing the steering bearings as they are lighterweight than my bicycle steering bearings..

[DoubleGuzzi]

For front end I think Gutsibits can still get the (cheaper) SEBAC front dampers..... worth checking * greasing the steering bearings ..

Agreed, though I haven't on this occasion. The dampers are still doing something and the bearings are notch free currently. TBH, I daren't look at the steering head bearings, given the various other discoveries.

Once I venture a little further and gain confidence in the running of the bike, I'll be more inclined to spend money and time on it. 

In other news, I discovered why there's copious amounts of oil spewing out of the now cleaned up gearbox breather. You guessed it, PO had significantly overfilled the gearbox. Removing the level plug produced approx. 60ml of oil - I'll see how much that improves things, then take it from there. I have a M10x1.5 barb tail connector incoming, should a breather hose be needed.

I know that I have to look at the air filter side of things but I'm not looking forward to that adventure. 

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

In other news, I discovered why there's copious amounts of oil spewing out of the now cleaned up gearbox breather. You guessed it, PO had significantly overfilled the gearbox. Removing the level plug produced approx. 60ml of oil - I'll see how much that improves things, then take it from there. I have a M10x1.5 barb tail connector incoming, should a breather hose be needed.

When you write "gearbox" do you mean the 5 spd transmission or the rear drive? The transmission should have 1 liter of oil in it, otherwise bad things happen. Don't rely on the level plugs at all - drain thoroughly, measure the correct amount and refill. You may need to refill it on the sidestand. With 1 liter of gear oil, a fitting and breather hose will be necessary.

[DoubleGuzzi]

The transmission should have 1 liter of oil in it, otherwise bad things happen.

The very man that I was thinking of! I was inspired by your banjo bolt breather mod. 
Yup, gearbox (where one finds different ratios) as opposed to bevel (or rear) drive. AFAIK and from reading all over forums etc., MG revised this to 900ml, to alleviate the oil venting. Points taken with respect to the actual capacity and level plug, though I was only following the manual, sir. 

BTW, your turn of phrase above sounds too close to a certain presidential muppet figure. 

[Tom]

You could also burp the transmission and rear end after filling with correct amount of gear lube. 

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

You could also burp the transmission and rear end after filling with correct amount of gear lube.

They both have vents from the factory, so burping is unnecessary.

[Tom]

If the vents aren't clogged. 

[DoubleGuzzi]

If the vents aren't clogged.

Both were seriously crudded when I got the bike: one of the first tasks was to remove and clean them. It's kinda surprising that seals hadn't been breached, well at least I haven't seen that so far. Touch wood.

[DoubleGuzzi]

On the subject of gearbox/transmission oil.
The owner's and workshop manuals differ on the specification of oil to use - quelle surprise! 
Owner's: "«Agip F.1 Rotra MP » SAE 140"
Workshop: "Agip F.1 Rotra MP (SAE 90)"
Could explain why the PO included an unopened can of Miller's 85W140 (to cover both/all eventualities?). Tempted to use it, 'cos it's free but veering towards buying a litre of 80W90 if not monograde, instead. The multigrade tends to be cheaper and readily sourced.

Thoughts from Uncle Bob Antietam?

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

On the subject of gearbox/transmission oil.
The owner's and workshop manuals differ on the specification of oil to use - quelle surprise! 
Owner's: "«Agip F.1 Rotra MP » SAE 140"
Workshop: "Agip F.1 Rotra MP (SAE 90)"
Could explain why the PO included an unopened can of Miller's 85W140 (to cover both/all eventualities?). Tempted to use it, 'cos it's free but veering towards buying a litre of 80W90 if not monograde, instead. The multigrade tends to be cheaper and readily sourced.

Thoughts from Uncle Bob Antitam?

80w90 in the transmission and 85w140 in the rear drive.

[DoubleGuzzi]

.. 85w140 in the rear drive.

I hope that it doesn't mean the '50 will go slower in the summer, with that heavyweight oil!   

Cheers! 

[DoubleGuzzi]

Well Uncle Bob Antietam made me feel guilty. 
I've added a barbed spigot bolt to the gearbox (£3.95 or ~5.39 bucks), replacing the original breather. To maintain spring tension, I needed to insert a spacer; I snipped the tangs off a hose clip and squeezed it in. Being spring metal that should be secure enough. I've routed silicon hose up and back, to the rear of the Bosch ignition box then down to vent below the centre stand pivot.
For now, I have a small petrol filter in place on the section at the rear, to monitor mist levels if nothing else. I've filled the gearbox with a litre of 80W90 and for peace of mind, also filled the rear drive with 750ml 170ml of the aforementioned 85W140. Both existing oils had recently been changed by the PO but at least I now know how much is in them.




 
[Edited due to eternal wisdom of esteemed Charlie.  ]

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Well Uncle Bob Antietam made me feel guilty. 

I've filled the gearbox with a litre of 80W90 and for peace of mind, also filled the rear drive with 750ml of the aforementioned 85W140. Both existing oils had recently been changed by the PO but at least I now know how much is in them.

The name is Charlie...

750 ml? The rear drive capacity is only 170 ml.

[DoubleGuzzi]

The name is Charlie...

750 ml? The rear drive capacity is only 170 ml.

Sorry, Uncle Charlie. My bad: no offence intended 

Yup, was a typo/senile moment; 170ml it is, measured out with a big syringe.

[DoubleGuzzi]

The brake light stopped working but I eventually found out it was the large block connector behind the right-hand side panel. I carefully unclipped the pins, individually cleaned them up, then reassembled with copious amounts of petroleum jelly at the cable entry points. Probably the best that they've been in decades.

I'm venturing further afield now, having been out for a 30+miles run today.

Got a slight oil seepage from somewhere between the top of the carbs - I suspect the breather from the airbox. I'll try moving the clip up a bit.
The new right-hand front brakes are shedding a lot of material, so I'll need to keep a close eye on that. Perhaps the EBC DMX Organic pads don't play nicely with the old disc and I'll need to revert to sintered ones. That would be a shame, as these have much better feel.

I've noticed that the swingarm, rear bevel box and brake disc get really hot, which is of some concern. I can't say that the same thing has caught my attention with the bigger machines.

I think that'll I'll spend some more time trying to sync the carbs again - not the easiest to do with the screw adjusters atop the bodies, whilst keeping the revs steady at say, 3000rpm. The bike is running well enough in the indicated 50-75mph range but perhaps a bit 'lumpy'. Good enough for considered overtaking though.
The throttle is kinda heavy going (I know, not compared to some old bikes!) and I'm considering snipping off 1/2" or so, from the slide return springs! 

[DoubleGuzzi]

Picked up a set of stainless steel pipes, for a great price. They've had the cross-pipe removed and replaced by welded in slugs - not ideal. They have a few dings and scratches: patina. Though the bike is overall tatty, it has lifted the looks and more importantly allowed me to be rid of the loathed pipe wrap.
Before:



After:







What really amazed me is that Keihan exhausts are seemingly still on the go and can provide pattern stainless pipes (systems, headers, silencers, parts) for a range of bikes. I remember them many moons ago for BMW exhausts, for some reason - not that I needed them.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Picked up a set of stainless steel pipes, for a great price. They've had the cross-pipe removed and replaced by welded in slugs - not ideal. They have a few dings and scratches: patina. Though the bike is overall tatty, it has lifted the looks and more importantly allowed me to be rid of the loathed pipe wrap.
Before:



After:







What really amazed me is that Keihan exhausts are seemingly still on the go and can provide pattern stainless pipes (systems, headers, silencers, parts) for a range of bikes. I remember them many moons ago for BMW exhausts, for some reason - not that I needed them.

I have a full system on my V65SP and bought one years ago for a customer's V50 III. Good stuff, always fits like it should.

[DoubleGuzzi]

Hi Charlie!
One silencer didn't come with the mounting bracket, so I made one to match the other out of some aluminium that I had lying about. Lateral flex of the softer metal will hopefully be OK. I actually struggled to get the pipes fitted and wonder if they are for a different model of V50 (though not the Monza as I believe they are considerably different).. The silencers get mighty close to the rear wheel spindle and the left one is ever so slightly touching it! That silencer is sitting a bit higher than the other, so something's not right. The header pipe gets whacked by the sidestand when retracted but that also happened with the scabby headers that I removed. I was thinking about loosening all the nuts (head clamps & pillion footpegs) and giving it all a good "shoogle" to see it it might improve alignment etc.
Went out for a local spin to try them out and for standard pattern exhausts they sound pretty rorty :-) Unlike the silencers I removed, there's no rattles so I assume the baffles are good. People do turn heads at the distinctive note.  I can't say that I noticed any odds from not having the headers linked but hardly surprising as the old sickle doesn't seem to run at its best anyway - topping out at an indicated 85mph allegedly. 
A pair of really cheaply priced Mikalor W2 silencer clamps arrived today - I hope that I got the right size - they look awfy wee. Should find out tomorrow.