Norge RTOD AGAIN?!

[brider]

.07 Norge is suddenly displaying the red ! symbol on the christmas-tree of dash lights, along with the same symbol and SERVICE msg where the ODO usually displays.

The dash light came on, then went off, then came on, etc, across the span of 2-3 rides, now it's on all the time along with the SERVICE msg.

I went thru this ~4k miles ago and replaced the oil pressure sensor, and made sure the connection was good. Solved the problem.

Now what? Is it the OP sensor or connection AGAIN? I can get eyes on the sensor connection in front of the left cyl with a pair of looong tweezers to push back the rubber boot over it, looks tight and secure. Does this combination of lights/warnings mean it IS related to oil pressure or the pressure sender, or could it be something else?

There goes another day of riding and who knows how many hrs to re-diagnose it. I've been tolerating Guzzi "finickiness" like this for 30 yrs or more and it's getting OLD, as I am. Zero patience for it anymore.

[guzzisteve]

Plug bike in w/cables & run GuzziDiag to see issue.

[73 sport]

 A meter beats electronics any day.

[Tom H]

 I do not remember the year of the Norge (2009, 2011??)I was working on.  GD only connected to the FI ECU and read it's codes, it will not connect to the dash and read the dash error codes. I had to go into the dash via the LH toggle switch and enter the "Service Code" (not the owners PIN for starting the bike) and read the codes.

It has been a while so bear with me, but on that bike there were two oil warning Light symbols and their codes. One was for the pressure switch and the other was for the oil pressure. When the key is turned on, the dash ECU does it's checks, one of them is the pressure switch. If the ECU shows oil pressure when the engine is not running it throws a code number. If the engine is running and shows no oil pressure then it throws a different number.

With the symptoms again, I would say the oil pressure switch is crapped out again, seems a common issue. With the symptoms of the bike I mentioned, the OP switch solved the problem after clearing the codes.

Hope this helps a bit,
Tom

[blackcat]

Yeah, I’d pull the switch and test it before flipping out. I installed this switch and tested it before installing:

https://www.autozone.com/external-engine/oil-pressure-switch/p/duralast-engine-oil-pressure-switch-ps486/261395_0_0

[Bulldog9]

.07 Norge is suddenly displaying the red ! symbol on the christmas-tree of dash lights, along with the same symbol and SERVICE msg where the ODO usually displays.

The dash light came on, then went off, then came on, etc, across the span of 2-3 rides, now it's on all the time along with the SERVICE msg.

I went thru this ~4k miles ago and replaced the oil pressure sensor, and made sure the connection was good. Solved the problem.

Now what? Is it the OP sensor or connection AGAIN? I can get eyes on the sensor connection in front of the left cyl with a pair of looong tweezers to push back the rubber boot over it, looks tight and secure. Does this combination of lights/warnings mean it IS related to oil pressure or the pressure sender, or could it be something else?

There goes another day of riding and who knows how many hrs to re-diagnose it. I've been tolerating Guzzi "finickiness" like this for 30 yrs or more and it's getting OLD, as I am. Zero patience for it anymore.

Have you replaced the **UPPER gasket? NOT the sump gasket, but the next one up. It has pressurized oil journals and the thin factory gasket on some can fail causing a loss in oil pressure. Solution is to replace with the upgraded green gasket which is thicker. Also, I believe the 07 Norge had an Oil pump issue, but most were replaced under a recall. 

**It could be as simple as the connector came off the sensor, or a bad sensor. It's been known to happen.

**Image for illustration, not sure it's the right one

[brider]

Thanks all. I forgot about the upper gasket issue but yes, on the first go-round I replaced both gaskets, and the upper was still
Intact so that was not a cause.

I am negligent on ordering a GD cable but I do have the software on my laptop. Still, I'd rather get my hands dirty installing an analog guage on the acres of open black dash plastic.

Still, an analog guage is worthless if the sender keeps failing, and I don't understand how a sender can go bad so frequently. Is that the world we live in now, where something so simple as that now has such a high failure rate?

[brider]

Back to one of my original questions: The manual suggests that the combination of the red triangle and SERVICE message is related to oil pressure. For any of you who HAVE used GD under these conditions, is that the issue GD reveals, or could there be non-OP related issues?

I seriously doubt there's a reduction in OP, there is no stalling at extended red lights from overheating, no noise, no indications of seizure, and I rode home 5 mi with that warning on, sat in the drive and idled perfectly.

If an analog guage were installed, I guess the dash lights and SERVICE warning would still be triggered by a bad sender. I'm talking myself in circles.

If I go old-school and take my long tweezers and pull off the lead to the sender, the light should go out, no?

[guzzisteve]

If you pull L/H header pipe you can get your hand in there and switch out. Have you read codes on dash?  I would get cables for GD. If you ride new tech you have to read new tech. OR pee in the wind.

[Bulldog9]

Back to one of my original questions: The manual suggests that the combination of the red triangle and SERVICE message is related to oil pressure. For any of you who HAVE used GD under these conditions, is that the issue GD reveals, or could there be non-OP related issues?

I seriously doubt there's a reduction in OP, there is no stalling at extended red lights from overheating, no noise, no indications of seizure, and I rode home 5 mi with that warning on, sat in the drive and idled perfectly.

If an analog guage were installed, I guess the dash lights and SERVICE warning would still be triggered by a bad sender. I'm talking myself in circles.

If I go old-school and take my long tweezers and pull off the lead to the sender, the light should go out, no?

I believe it's the opposite. If I recall, the oil pressure switch is normally open and closes when the oil pressure is up. So grounding the lead should make the light go out. Unplugging it would keep it on.
GD will not give you much more information, But you are able to read and clear codes easier than going through the dash and putting in the code.

It's been a while since I changed mine on the 1200 sport, but I remember there being some discussion about some of the vendors supplying crappy switches so I bought a cross reference part. I think it was a BMW sensor. It's lasted at least 5 years. It didn't have a spade connector on it It had like a top hat style terminal where you slid the wire over it parallel to the engine rather than perpendicular.

[blackcat]

I don't understand how a sender can go bad so frequently. Is that the world we live in now, where something so simple as that now has such a high failure rate?

I bought a brand new sender from MG Cycle and it worked for a day:



That's when I went with the one from autozone which cost more but so far so good. I also changed the sump gaskets and one of them was broken but I don't think that is why I got the Red Triangle. And those were the original gaskets from when I bought the bike new in 07. 

[brider]

I'm 98% sure I bought my sender from MG. Guess I'll chalk it up to the sender before I freak out anymore. Gettin' REAL fast at removing the tank & airbox now!

[brider]

Or maybe this time I'LL try removing the header.

[PJPR01]

Red Light on dash + SERVICE is not automatically an oil sender switch issue.

You need to connect Guzzidiag and read the Faults.  It will tell you specifically the fault...right now you're just assuming it's the oil sender switch.

It could be many different types of error messages...faulty temperature MAF on the airbox for example, a leaky hose on one of the throttle bodies...

I'm afraid there's no way around it until you connect GD and read the fault(s).

[Tom H]

Per the manual for a 2 valve per cyl. Norge, the dash is where you can read the error codes. It will show the ECU and the dash. The dash is where the OP codes are kept. If there is an X in the left check box, it's a current issue, if it's in the right box, it's stored in memory IIRR. If  do a search for DSB 07, you should be able to find a pic of the dash showing the error codes.

Read from page45, note the Service Code,

https://cadrecycle.com/manuals/technical/Norge%201200.pdf

Tom

[blackcat]

“The dashboard receives from the central computer only actual faults
Vcc = + 5Volts.
Gnd = Ground or Frame
C.C. = Component connector

ECU Error Code 10 - Error throttle valve C.C. Vcc
ECU Error Code 11 - throttle valve C.C. Gnd
ECU Error Code 12 - Some analog channel functions do checks on the input signal to make sure it is changing as expected (i.e. RPM and MAP are increasing but TPS did not change or engine idling but TPS at 100%)
ECU Error Code 13 - Temp Sensor disconnect?
ECU Error Code 14 - Engine temperature C.C. Vcc
ECU Error Code 15 - Engine temperature C.C Gnd
ECU Error Code 16 - Air temperature C.C. Vcc
ECU Error Code 17 - Air temperature C.C Gnd
ECU Error Code 20 - Low battery
ECU Error Code 21 - Lambda sensor (02 Sensor)
ECU Error Code 22 - Ignition coil 1 C.C. Vcc
ECU Error Code 23 - Ignition coil 1 C.C. Gnd
ECU Error Code 24 - Ignition coil 2 C.C. Vcc
ECU Error Code 25 - Ignition coil 2 C.C. Gnd
ECU Error Code 26 - Injector 1 C.C. Vcc
ECU Error Code 27 - Injector 1 C.C. Gnd
ECU Error Code 30 - Injector 2 C.C. Vcc
ECU Error Code 31 - Injector 2 C.C. Gnd (This is not listed but I suppose that this is the function)
ECU Error Code 36 - Pump relay
ECU Error Code 37 - Local Loop-back
ECU Error Code 44 - Relay starter C.C. Vcc
ECU Error Code 45 - Relay starter C.C. Gnd
ECU Error Code 46 - Canister C.C Vcc
ECU Error Code 47 - Canister C.C. Gnd
ECU Error Code 50 - Battery high
ECU Error Code 51 - ECU general
ECU Error Code 54 - Instrument panel
ECU Error Code 55 - Autoadaptation Tito I (I have no idea what this is.)
ECU Error Code 56 - Vehicle speed
ECU Error Code 60 - Stepper C.A.
ECU Error Code 61 - Stepper C.C. Vcc
ECU Error Code 62 - Stepper C.C. Gnd
ECU Error Code 00 - Unknown

DASHBOARD ERRORS

DSB 01 - Immobiliser fault: key code read but not recognised or key code not read
DSB 02 - Key not present or transponder broken
DSB 03 - Immobiliser fault: Antenna broken (open or short-circuit)
DSB 04 - Immobilizer fault: internal controller fault
DSB 05 - Fuel sensor fault
DSB 06 - Air temperature sensor fault
DSB 07 - Oil sensor fault DSB
DSB 08 - Oil pressure fault

C1100 = Front speed sensor missing signal or speed measured too low in relation to the rear wheel.
C1102 = Front speed sensor: missing signal or speed measured too low in relation to the rear wheel.
C1104 = Front speed sensor: missing signal or different speed measured at the two wheels.
C1106 = Front speed sensor: missing signal or different speed measured at the two wheels.
C1108 = Front speed sensor: the signal works irregularly
C1110 = Front speed sensor: the signal decreases periodically
C1301 = Failed CAN reception from instrument panel
C1301 = Failed CAN reception from instrument panel
C1302 = CAN line mute mode
C1302 = CAN line mute mode
P0105 = rear cylinder air pressure sensor
P0106 = front cylinder air pressure sensor
P0107 = rear cylinder air pressure sensor
P0108 = rear cylinder air pressure sensor
P0110 = air temperature sensor
P0115 = engine temperature sensor
P0116 = engine temperature sensor
P0120 = potentiometer 1 sensor, rear throttle position
P0121 = potentiometer 1 sensor, rear throttle position
P0122 = potentiometer 2 sensor, rear throttle position
P0123 = potentiometer 2 sensor, rear throttle position
P0124 = rear throttle position potentiometer
P0125 = potentiometer 1 sensor, front throttle position
P0126 = potentiometer 1 sensor, front throttle position
P0127 = potentiometer 2 sensor, front throttle position
P0128 = potentiometer 2 sensor, front throttle position
P0129 = front throttle position potentiometer
P0130 = Oxygen sensor
P0134 = Lambda probe - voltage without variation.
P0135 = Lambda probe heating
P0136 = Right lambda sensor heating
P0141 = Lambda shorted to positive / open circuit,
P0150 = Blue lower connector throttle grip position sensor - track A
P0151 = Blue lower connector throttle grip position sensor - track B
P0152 = White upper connector throttle grip position sensor - track C
P0153 = White upper connector throttle grip position sensor - track D
P0154 = Blue lower connector throttle grip position (tracks A-B) - illogical signals.
P0155 = White upper connector throttle grip position (tracks C-D)
P0156 = Throttle grip position
P0160 = Rear throttle Limp Home self-acquisition
P0161 = Rear throttle mechanical springs self-acquisition
P0162 = Rear throttle minimum mechanical position self-acquisition
P0163 = Detection of the rear throttle Recovery conditions (air temp., water temp.)
P0164 = Rear throttle power supply voltage during self-learning
P0165 = Front throttle first self-learning NOT performed
P0166 = Rear throttle control circuit
P0167 = Rear throttle position error
P0168 = Throttle body learning procedure can not be executed
P0169 = Starter switch LOGIC ERRORS
P0170 = Starter switch ELECTRICAL ERRORS
P0180 = Front throttle Limp Home self-acquisition
P0181 = Front throttle mechanical springs self-acquisition
P0182 = Front throttle minimum mechanical position self-acquisition
P0183 = Detection of the front throttle Recovery conditions (air temp., water temp.)
P0184 = Front throttle power supply voltage during self-learning
P0186 = Front throttle control circuit
P0187 = Front throttle position error
P0190 = Exhaust butterfly valve position
P0191 = Exhaust butterfly valve stop research
P0192 = Exhaust valve engine
P0193 = Exhaust valve potentiometer
P0195 = Engine Oil Temperature (EOT) Sensor Malfunction
P0210 = Error for unexpected air intake in the rear cylinder manifold
P0211 = Error for unexpected air intake in the front cylinder manifold
P0215 = Estimation error for rear cylinder intake manifold pressure
P0216 = Estimation error for front cylinder intake manifold pressure
P0217 = Pressure too low at rear cylinder manifold error
P0218 = Pressure too low at front cylinder manifold error
P0230 = fuel pump relay control
P0335 = Crankshaft Position Sensor A Circuit malfunction
P0336 = Engine speed sensor
P0351 = Coil 1
P0352 = Coil 2
P0410 = Secondary Air Injection System
P0446 = Secondary air valve control
P0461 = Gear sensor
P0501 = Front wheel speed/ABS signal/sensor
P0502 = Rear wheel speed/ABS signal/senor
P0505 = Idle Control/Stepper Motor
P0510 = Rear wheel radius acquisition
P0512 = Starter switch
P0560 = Battery voltage
P0601 = EEPROM Error
P0604 = RAM Error
P0605 = ROM Error
P0607 = A/D converter
P0608 = Level 2 safety reset
P0609 = Safety Engine Stop
P060B = A/D converter
P060C = Engine safety stop
P0610 = Stop lights relay error
P0611 = Saved data file (for safety)
P0615 = Starter relay
P1301 = Stop lights relay error
P1601 = CAN bus
P1602 = Cylinder bank intake manifold pressure estim. Error
P1607 = Data file saved (for safety)
P160C = Level 2 safety reset

The dashboard maintains memory of old errors.”

[brider]

Thanks for posting the error-code list, I'll print that out.

About that GD cable: Does it plug into this mystery plug under my seat, shown here with the cap pulled off? If not, what is this thing, and where DOES the GD cable plug into?

[guzzisteve]

That may be it, usually back by the other fuses. That looks like it though.

[drdwb]

You want the plug under the seat near the fuse box.
The one on the right goes to the ABS system, so I’ve been told.

Last year I tried to hook up my 07 Norge to GD. After many failed attempts and a text to Beatle we realized I was hooking up to the wrong plug. DUH I’d connected many times before, but during the lapse in years I’d forgotten that.
But in my defense, the Californias, my 03 EV and my wife’s 04 Stone are both on the right side under the brain box, so it just seemed logical for the plug to be there. By the way, the plugs are identical, haven’t verified pins,but the GD plug will connect to both.

[Bulldog9]

Thanks for posting the error-code list, I'll print that out.

About that GD cable: Does it plug into this mystery plug under my seat, shown here with the cap pulled off? If not, what is this thing, and where DOES the GD cable plug into?

Not super positive, because I have an 8V Norge, but that is the ABS connector. THe GD is up higher at the small fuse box near the seat latch, and the plastic tool bag carrier cover thinggy.

[Huzo]

The one with the blue/yellow wires.

[blackcat]

[guzzisteve]

That's it. Same as on all CARC's

[brider]

That's when I went with the one from autozone which cost more but so far so good.

Any idea what P/N or application that Autozone version was?

[brider]

That's it. Same as on all CARC's

In that latest image, can't tell how many pins/wires it is.....mine is 3-pin/wires. Does that sound correct?

[guzzi ride]

Two wires/pins

[guzzisteve]

In that latest image, can't tell how many pins/wires it is.....mine is 3-pin/wires. Does that sound correct?

Yes, 3 pin plug with 2 wires going to it.

[blackcat]

Any idea what P/N or application that Autozone version was?

And the part shipped to me had the nail head connection, not the spade bit as shown: 

https://www.autozone.com/external-engine/oil-pressure-switch/p/duralast-engine-oil-pressure-switch-ps486/261395_0_0

Once again, check the one you have in there right now before ordering a new one.

[Speedfrog]

“The dashboard receives from the central computer only actual faults
Vcc = + 5Volts.
Gnd = Ground or Frame
C.C. = Component connector

ECU Error Code 10 - Error throttle valve C.C. Vcc
ECU Error Code 11 - throttle valve C.C. Gnd
ECU Error Code 12 - . . . . . . . .

Thank you BC for posting the error codes list, do you know if it applies to all CARC bikes?

[PJPR01]

What the heck does RTOD mean anyway? 

Have you figured out how to clear the dashboard errors yet by going into the diagnostics menu?   Easy enough to do so, but take a picture so you can see which ones have been triggered.

By the way, how's your battery condition?