Norge likely suspects for batt drain?

[brider]

On 8/27 I posted this thread about the RToD returning to my Norge:

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=123834.0

I parked the bike on that date, ordered a new oil-pressure-sensor based on the discussion (even though I have not sourced a GD cable yet), got the sensor in the mail yesterday.

Yesterday, I turned the key on and the batt was completely DEAD again, measured 6V, a mere 6 days after parking the bike.

I also posted here recently about this same batt drain, but the discussion devolved into tender vs no-tender:

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=123786.0;topicseen

So anyway, the first time this happened I took the batt to the place I bought it, assuming it was "bad" (even though I had a load-tester and did not check it myself) and hoping for a replacement, but they tested it and said it tested fine.

Back to the bike: The only elec mods are the SI 'fix" and a remote starter button on the dash that sends 12V from the batt to the starter solenoid activation post. Other than that it is bone-stock.

Someone in one of the previous posts mentioned attaching a 5w "globe"? to the batt + to check for current draw? What the heck does that refer to?

It would be easy enough to un-do the SI fix(es) to make it absolutely bone-stock, but I cannot envision how either of those could induce a current draw without frying a wire or blowing a fuse.

Any suggestion on how to pinpoint a phantom current draw?

[guzzisteve]

Sounds to me like a harness plug cleaningtime, all don't leave one unchecked. This is how the technology is, pins fail. I have replaced 2 and it takes 8hrs  to change out a harness. Little wires last less. My 67 has big wires & is still zapping stuff to life w/34AH big batt.

What you need to understand is your Norge is alive all the time, it does not shut off when you turn the key off. Your issue is in one of the live circuits. UNLESS the battery is bad. One reason I didn't ever buy one, just worked on & enjoyed someone else's. Your dash is alive too, could even be it. I quit before that era of models got old.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Drop the battery ground off then connect a small bulb between battery negative and chassis, it shouldn't light with the key OFF
Does the bike have ABS?
Quantify the battery drain by measuring with a meter. connect the meter the meter on Amps scale in place of the battery ground or in series with battery positive.
There should be zero current flowing with the key OFF. if there is pull each of the fuses one by one to identify which circuit has a load on.
Caution, don't try to start the bike with the meter installed or you will burn out the meter fuse.
Another owner had a pinched wire going to the rear speed sensor sending 12 Volts to chassis, check that out.
2007 Non ABS Norge
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2007_Norge.gif
2007 ABS Norge
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2007_Norge_ABS.gif

[Gliderjohn]

I don't have any suggestions but should not have happened in that amount of time. We moved to NM in fall of 2021. Everything was iffy then due to -. I had my 2011 8V Norge moved from KS to NM by a bike transport Co. Between everything at the time the Norge sat for four months without running with a three year old battery. When delivered it turned over as normal and started right up.
GliderJohn

[brider]

Drop the battery ground off then connect a small bulb between battery negative and chassis, it shouldn't light with the key OFF
Does the bike have ABS?
Quantify the battery drain by measuring with a meter. connect the meter the meter on Amps scale in place of the battery ground or in series with battery positive.
There should be zero current flowing with the key OFF. if there is pull each of the fuses one by one to identify which circuit has a load on.
Caution, don't try to start the bike with the meter installed or you will burn out the meter fuse.
Another owner had a pinched wire going to the rear speed sensor sending 12 Volts to chassis, check that out.
2007 Non ABS Norge
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2007_Norge.gif
2007 ABS Norge
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2007_Norge_ABS.gif

THIS is good stuff, will try to perform these checks today. Agree with John, 6V after 6 days sitting, SOMETHING IS WRONG.

[Wayne Orwig]

Drop the battery ground off then connect a small bulb between battery negative and chassis, it shouldn't light with the key OFF

Keep in mind, when power is first applied to this ECU even with the key OFF, it MAY turn on relays, maybe run the stepper motor home and such momentarily. Then it SHOULD power itself back off. This may light that bulb and keep it on for a while leading to confusion. Still worth trying.

I had something odd happen many years back with my Stelvio. I had a front turn signal fail, and it turned on an error on the dash. It was a known issue with the stupid turn signal in the mirror. Anyway, the next day in the garage, I could hear the stepper motor running back and forth, back and forth. Bzzzz, Bzzzz. No key, no lights, just the ECU running the stepper motor constantly. After fixing the turn signal, all was well. For some reason that fault was keeping the ECU awake. The battery would have been dead soon with that running. I idea why it would do such a thing but it did.

[brider]

Does the bike have ABS?

Yes, the bike has ABS

[brider]

Quantify the battery drain by measuring with a meter. connect the meter the meter on Amps scale in place of the battery ground or in series with battery positive.

This procedure SEEMS a no-brainer, and I'm not afraid to ask dumb questions, so can you clarify like I'm a 4-yr old? My DMM has (2) leads, black & red. do I just connect each lead to the respective batt leads, neg-to-neg & pos-to-pos?

[Wayne Orwig]

This procedure SEEMS a no-brainer, and I'm not afraid to ask dumb questions, so can you clarify like I'm a 4-yr old? My DMM has (2) leads, black & red. do I just connect each lead to the respective batt leads, neg-to-neg & pos-to-pos?

Just like using the light bulb.
For this test, NEVER touch the battery positive lead.
Lift the negative wire(s) on the battery. Attach the black meter lead to the negative on the battery. Attach the red to the wire(s) that you removed from the battery. Now battery power has to pass through the meter to run the bike.
You need to have the meter on a HIGH current scale. On MOST meters you will have to move one lead to a separate plug on the meter to handle higher current. That depends on the meter. Remember that all of the battery power is passing through the meter. One wrong step like pressing the start button, may damage the meter. Just turning on the key/headlight may be too much for the meter. Roy's light bulb idea is a great first step.

[brider]

Thanks for the clarifications, Wayne.

[brider]

UPDATE:

Performed the current-draw checks per Roy & Wayne's guidance, and there was definitely a "bulb-glow" for the bulb test.

Next, I set my DMM to the hi-current setting (10A plug & dial setting) and got a readout of .29 on the screen. This was my setup, maybe someone can reveal what that .29 was....I assume 29 amp? .29 amp?





Then I pulled every fuse there was, Accessories, then ABS, then the main fuses, and the current draw was linked to fuse J, from batt to key & C,D fuses:





Fuse D that feeds the starter relay coil seems suspicious, since the relay coil is the one that the SI fix services, right?

Not sure how to narrow it down further from here...or what to even look for.

[Tom H]

With all fuses back in, pull fuse D. If the .29V goes away, then it's something connected to fuse D. Put fuse D back in and pull the starter relay, see what you meter shows. There are a few other circuits on the fuse, if not the starter relay, check the other options.

Tom

[brider]

With all fuses back in, pull fuse D. If the .29V goes away, then it's something connected to fuse D. Put fuse D back in and pull the starter relay, see what you meter shows. There are a few other circuits on the fuse, if not the starter relay, check the other options.

Tom

Fuses A thru F were the first ones I pulled, and for each one pulled the .29 reading remained. I think I need to scrutinize the wiring diagram and see if I can learn the logic of those systems connected to J.

[Wayne Orwig]

If possible, connect the meter and let it sit for a LONG time. Maybe 10 minutes. It may just be the ECU waking up, and after a few minutes it will go to sleep.
Most ECUs have a connection directly to the battery, as well as the one that is switched. This is to keep the memory for fault codes and such. When the battery is first attached, the ECU often powers on a relay or such. After some amount of time, the ECU realizes the key is off and turns everything off. The keep alive for the memory still is on but such a low power that it is not a problem.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Fuse D feeds the Main Injection relay (29) Normally Open contact so how can you get 0.29 Amps, only if the relay contact is closed
Having said that 0.29 Amps would probably flatten the battery after several days. 20 Amp Hour/0.29 = 68.96 hours. 68.96/24 = 2.87 days
With the meter connected pull the relay it should drop to zero.
We need to figure out where that current is going.


https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2007_Norge_ABS.gif

[brider]

Fuse D feeds the Main Injection relay (29) Normally Open contact so how can you get 0.29 Amps, only if the relay contact is closed
Having said that 0.29 Amps would probably flatten the battery in after several days.
With the meter connected pull the relay it should drop to zero.
We need to figure out where that current is going.


https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2007_Norge_ABS.gif

By "pull the relay", I assume you mean pull the wire coming off Fuse D, correct?

[moto-uno]

  I believe they may be referring to the wiring connector on the actual starter relay itself .

[guzzisteve]

Pull the relay out of it's holder, so it's laying on the table and not plugged in. This is what "Pull the relay" means.

[brider]

There seems to be a discrepancy (shocker) between the owner's manual images and the actual wiring diagram. From the actual wiring diagram, it looks like that 30A fuse that services the offending circuit is feeding the power receptacle (under the seat) and then the Ign switch and a bunch of pins on the dash:





Follow the candy-strip (see red arrow at bottom) to Ign switch and dash pins:





I'd like to start with the easy stuff first...like the power outlet. Q: If there is current continuously flowing thru the outlet or any of the other pins, what keeps the current so low, and why doesn't it just ground out and blow the fuse?

Q2: Now that I know how to jump my DMM between the batt (-) cables and the batt (-) post to read current flowing thru the system, how to I read current at any of the suspected points in these 2 diagrams images?

Take the power outlet for example: I know that if I take my test probe and touch a contact within the outlet I'm going to find 12V, but that 12V shouldn't be grounding to the frame and conducting current....same with any of the other pins. And if it does, what limits it from escalating current until the fuse blows? The power outlet I can handle with my simple mind, I'll just dis-connect it (after removing the saddlebags & side-trim, THANK YOU MG for making everything so accessible...). But if that's not it and it's a pin up in the dash, how do I detect it, and how do I fix it?

[guzzisteve]

The colored diagrams are known to have discrepancies from original diagrams  they come in high def if you look around. you may have to read the colors.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Im wracking my old brain to figure out what circuit could possibly draw 0.29 Amps?

I seem to recall that these bikes don't have a flasher unit for the direction indicators but they have 4 individual circuits coming from the dash.
You don't have a graphic displayed on the dash do you? a picture that looks a bit like a bulb.
Check each of the direction bulbs to make sure ones not shorted or open circuit and they all operate normally.

0.29 x 12 is only 3.48 Watts, are there any lamps on the circuit around that value.
Roy

[brider]

You don't have a graphic displayed on the dash do you? a picture that looks a bit like a bulb.

Roy: Look (2) posts above, I posted the wiring diagram where the offending circuit feeds (what I think are) the dash connectors.

[Rebochi]

      My wild guess is the alternator diodes are leaking, easy to check just let the bike sit overnight with a charged battery and use a infrared thermometer and check for heat, If the alternator is above ambient temperature that is your problem, any electrical component that is above ambient is using power.

[brider]

      My wild guess is the alternator diodes are leaking, easy to check just let the bike sit overnight with a charged battery and use a infrared thermometer and check for heat, If the alternator is above ambient temperature that is your problem, any electrical component that is above ambient is using power.

Interesting, but the power drain HAS to be on the circuit I indicated in my posted diagrams, and the alternator isn't on that circuit.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Interesting, but the power drain HAS to be on the circuit I indicated in my posted diagrams, and the alternator isn't on that circuit.

0.29 x 12 is only about 3 1/2 Watts, hardly enough to create any heat'
I do remember the lamp test for the direction indicator bulbs passes some current but not too much

[Rebochi]

Interesting, but the power drain HAS to be on the circuit I indicated in my posted diagrams, and the alternator isn't on that circuit.

     The alternator is absolutely on the battery circuit with the Diode Bridge separating the battery circuit from a ground through the windings. Not just a crack pot Theory but real trouble shooting. My 1200S had this same problem last year.