Quickshifter for V85?

[YellowDuck]

For me it's only sensible / useful under full throttle acceleration.  It definitely decreased your zero to 60 (or to whatever) time compared to clutching the upshifts.  Nobody uses the clutch while accelerating on a race track. 

[Huzo]

For me it's only sensible / useful under full throttle acceleration.  It definitely decreased your zero to 60 (or to whatever) time compared to clutching the upshifts.  Nobody uses the clutch while accelerating on a race track.

Using Casey Stoner as an example.
One of the on board cameras he had on the Ducati showed his left hand, he used the clutch on downshifts.

[Bulldog9]

The last few responses are very encouraging, because at least they acknowledge that there are factors at play that deserve addressing.
Yellowduck says that he has done this practice over many years on multiple bikes.
This I suggest is where the problem resides…
It is not an issue where you do it on many bikes over a number of years, because each bike has a (relatively) minimal exposure to the torture, it’s when you do it on one bike over many years.
The potential damage is cumulative.
I do like the post that talks about the time between disengagement and engagement of the next gear, as when the alteration of the flywheel rpm must occur.
This is what I’ve been banging on about all along.
It is the almost total lack of cushioning of the shock through the gear train when the new gear is slammed home, that I suggest is the source of the potential damage or wear.
This is over tens of thousands of cycles.
 Now y’all may say that there is cushioning in the springs within the clutch body that “soaks up” the shock.
Garbage…
Those springs compress about 4 mm maximum before they coil bind, that is going to be around 3 or 4 degrees of crankshaft rotation and at 3,000 rpm (50 revs per second), y’all can do the math and tell me how long it takes to rotate 4 degrees at those rpm..
It comes down to thousandths of a second..
You can safely call it zero time that you are smashing those revs down or up. Deceleration shock is the same as accelleration shock, it is a cruel force that is instantaneously applied either way and the energy has to go somewhere.
Imagine you have a flywheel of equal mass in a test rig and it’s rotating at 3,000 rpm, you have a one metre lever on the supporting shaft to which you can apply an instant brake so as to drop those revs by 1,000 in less than 0.1 seconds.
How much force will that apply to the end of your one metre lever ?
A shitload would be an acccurate assessment and that is over ONE metre, now consider the RADIUS of your gear in the ‘box..
It’s about 25 mm, so that force that you felt on the end of the one metre lever in the test rig, can be multiplied by 40, because torque is force x distance.
This my friends, is what you are asking your gearbox to endure, many many tens of thousands of times in it’s life, just so you can “save yourself the trouble” of “pulling in the clutch….” 
I’ll leave y’all with the elephant in the room question regarding changing without the clutch…..Why ?

I understand your 'theoretical concerns', and I don't disagree that improperly done it could and would do damage, but done properly, as I have stated before, no damage, no spooge on the magnetic plug, and no issues at all.

Yamaha XS1100 - 132K miles
Yamaha XS750 - 48K miles
Norge - 55K miles
1200 Sport - 72K miles +/-
Stornello 13K miles
Griso 15K miles
Baby Breva 22K (?) miles

No issues ever.

Lightly preload the shift lever up or down.............. blip the throttle gear shifts smoothly, then back on the throttle. As I said before, the CARC big blocks are the toughest to make smooth, but it is doable.

Have done, will do PROPERLY when I am in the mood, NOT when accelerating hard, is for easy relaxed riding and my borderline crippled increasingly arthritic and tendonitis filled left hand thanks me......

But that infirmity is only the last 5 years, I have been doing this on my XS11 since 1986, and the GRiSO since 2015..... Stornello since 2016. Again ALL without issue, without ANY evidence of abuse, wear or chuncks/spooge in the transmission.  I do it because I want to, like to, and will continue to.

[Huzo]

Good answer Bulldog, not to the question I posed, but good answer.
No one is going to try to understand my point…
No one.
The concern is not how well or otherwise you can make the shift…..Does everyone get that ?
It is what the dogs are being asked to do when they engage, absolutely sweet bugger all to to with “technique”. Donald Duck could shift the gear and the dogs would still have the same task to perform.
As an aside, when you blip the throttle, is that on an upshift or downshift ?
On an upshift, what is the process you do for the blip and when you blip for the downshift, what do you do then ?
Can you detail what you do with the throttle for each ?
That is your hand, not foot.

[SIR REAL ED]

The last few responses are very encouraging, because at least they acknowledge that there are factors at play that deserve addressing.
Yellowduck says that he has done this practice over many years on multiple bikes.
This I suggest is where the problem resides…
It is not an issue where you do it on many bikes over a number of years, because each bike has a (relatively) minimal exposure to the torture, it’s when you do it on one bike over many years.
The potential damage is cumulative.
I do like the post that talks about the time between disengagement and engagement of the next gear, as when the alteration of the flywheel rpm must occur.
This is what I’ve been banging on about all along.
It is the almost total lack of cushioning of the shock through the gear train when the new gear is slammed home, that I suggest is the source of the potential damage or wear.
This is over tens of thousands of cycles.
 Now y’all may say that there is cushioning in the springs within the clutch body that “soaks up” the shock.
Garbage…
Those springs compress about 4 mm maximum before they coil bind, that is going to be around 3 or 4 degrees of crankshaft rotation and at 3,000 rpm (50 revs per second), y’all can do the math and tell me how long it takes to rotate 4 degrees at those rpm..
It comes down to thousandths of a second..
You can safely call it zero time that you are smashing those revs down or up. Deceleration shock is the same as accelleration shock, it is a cruel force that is instantaneously applied either way and the energy has to go somewhere.
Imagine you have a flywheel of equal mass in a test rig and it’s rotating at 3,000 rpm, you have a one metre lever on the supporting shaft to which you can apply an instant brake so as to drop those revs by 1,000 in less than 0.1 seconds.
How much force will that apply to the end of your one metre lever ?
A shitload would be an acccurate assessment and that is over ONE metre, now consider the RADIUS of your gear in the ‘box..
It’s about 25 mm, so that force that you felt on the end of the one metre lever in the test rig, can be multiplied by 40, because torque is force x distance.
This my friends, is what you are asking your gearbox to endure, many many tens of thousands of times in it’s life, just so you can “save yourself the trouble” of “pulling in the clutch….” 
I’ll leave y’all with the elephant in the room question regarding changing without the clutch…..Why ?

The trick is to release the load on the drivetrain, which is the purpose of hitting the kill switch or blipping the throttle.  If you don't release the load, it will not be a smooth shift.  Just like switching from 4WD back to 2WD in a truck.  No need to be in neutral just punch it and shift between the "acceleration" and the "engine braking" mode.

My Dad's construction company had lots of beat up old vehicles that needed more maintenance than they got.  One driver shifted a truck so smoothly, that was notorious for shifting poorly.

"George, how are you getting that useless POS to shift so smoothly?"
"I either don't use the clutch at all, or I double clutch it!  Plus you need to rev it up a bit between gears.  As long as the transmission shaft is spinning the same speed when you leave one gear and enter the next gear, it will engage smoothly."

I've been in the cab with him when he was driving that hunk of junk, and he was not lying.  He made shifting without the clutch smooth and effortless.

[SIR REAL ED]

I asked the same question at the end of my response also and even though I do it quite frequently I don’t have a reasonable explanation. Possibly because on my bike it’s always just so smooth and trouble free. I don’t have to move anything except my left foot about a 1/4”.
In my case maybe just to lazy to move more body parts than necessary 🤔🤣

Give yourself some credit Dan, some day you might need that minute amount of movement in your left hand and luckily, that hand will work like brand new.

[SIR REAL ED]

Lightly preload the shift lever up or down.............. blip the throttle gear shifts smoothly, then back on the throttle. As I said before, the CARC big blocks are the toughest to make smooth, but it is doable.

There you are folks!  That's the technique!

Works for motorcycles, dump trucks, and pick up trucks.

Operator skill and mechanical sensitivity is required, other wise, stick with using the clutch!!

[PeteS]

Good answer Bulldog, not to the question I posed, but good answer.
No one is going to try to understand my point…
No one.
The concern is not how well or otherwise you can make the shift…..Does everyone get that ?
It is what the dogs are being asked to do when they engage, absolutely sweet bugger all to to with “technique”. Donald Duck could shift the gear and the dogs would still have the same task to perform.
As an aside, when you blip the throttle, is that on an upshift or downshift ?
On an upshift, what is the process you do for the blip and when you blip for the downshift, what do you do then ?
Can you detail what you do with the throttle for each ?
That is your hand, not foot.

I doubt you will get an answer here. It appears the only group that might help are road racers who use quick shifters all the time.
We have learned that apparently no one has put one on a V85 yet which was the original question, and the only Guzzis that have them are a few V100s. I doubt any of those have had their gearboxes opened up yet.
Add to that there are as many gearbox designs as their are bikes. So while most of us actually understand the question, few have the answer.

Pete

[Bulldog9]

Good answer Bulldog, not to the question I posed, but good answer.
No one is going to try to understand my point…
No one.
The concern is not how well or otherwise you can make the shift…..Does everyone get that ?
It is what the dogs are being asked to do when they engage, absolutely sweet bugger all to to with “technique”. Donald Duck could shift the gear and the dogs would still have the same task to perform.
As an aside, when you blip the throttle, is that on an upshift or downshift ?
On an upshift, what is the process you do for the blip and when you blip for the downshift, what do you do then ?
Can you detail what you do with the throttle for each ?
That is your hand, not foot.

I thought I answered you concern on 'wear and abuse of the dogs' by showing clearly that I have never seen an ounce of evidence that there is increased or significant wear of the dogs as evidenced in the fluuid changes over many miles and many bikes. Surely you would agree that if there was sever or significant wear on the dogs, it would be evidenced by metallic debris or residue (AKA spooge) on the drain plug magnet.

The fact that Donald Duck is a total klutz and famous for being uncoordinated aside , My technique is generally the same.

Light pressure on shift lever up or down, adjustment of throttle to find that 'neutral' spot to let the dog slide easily, and you are in the next gear up or down.

As for throttle action, on upshifts, I release or let off the throttle just enough so that the lever moves easily. Once shift is complete, the throttle is reapplied and acceleration continues. Hard to describe downshifts, and frequently, the transmission easily cooperates by snicking into the lower gear. Its an instinctual thing, but I will often raise the throttle a bit to again, take pressure off the dogs so the shift happens smoothly.

For ME, this is for casual easy riding and ac/de-celleration, and key is setting the throttle so that the gear shift lever easily selects the next gear up or down.

I should also restate several other factors.
1. Properly adjusted throttle cables. Slack makes this messy and difficult
2. Properly adjusted shift lever. Efficient control is essential as this is a 'by feel' exercise. A loose or poorly adjusted shift lever with too much play, or poor toe engagement makes it more difficult.
3. CARC bikes are more difficult and can be a bit lurchy. Of my 4 CARC oriented bikes, they all have a very different personality and response.
4. I dont ALWAYS shift this way, but do so frequently enough, especially while moving at speed and shifting gears on non technical roads.

I've also stated that the CARC bikes, likely due to the large flywheels are the most difficult to do smoothly, especially on upshifts. The gear lever easily slides to the next gear, but if I dont feather and let off the throttle enough the bike will lurch or jump forward just as if you let off the clutch too fast on acceleration. It's not as big of a deal on downshifts.  The Stornello and Baby Breva are no drama up or down.

I have friends who have and will never try clutchless shifting. That's fine by me, I'm not looking to make converts. But my experience in 40 years and high mileage riding has shown no deleterious effects on longevity or function. That's all I am saying.

I understand your concerns, and you are not wrong in principle, but you are also not right in your assertions that this is death and abuse to a transmission.