Gravel riding technique

[YellowDuck]

I bought the Strada version of the V85 because I had no intentions of ever doing any "real" off road riding, and so the skid plate and wire spoke wheels seemed like cosplay for my use case.

However, dirt roads are not out of the question.  Specifically, the last 7 km of the 250 km trip to the cottage consist of winding (TIGHT turns), hilly dirt road, with random sections of it covered in very fresh, loose gravel.  My 40 years of riding include approximately zero experience on such roads.

I braved it this weekend (multiple times in and out that road, including once in the wet), and find I am improving, but still have much to learn. 

The most important thing was learning to lean the bike underneath me while keeping my body upright.  I successfully installed this subroutine into the old meat computer, but WOW was it counter-intuitive at first.

Before attempting it the first time, I also programmed myself to stay off the front brake (also very counter-intuitive for a 100% asphalt rider), relying on engine braking (first or second gear) and sometimes the rear brake.

I also tried to stay loose on the bars and let the front wheel wander about a bit.

Any more advice for me, from those of you with lots of off road experience?  I never really scared myself because I was going pretty slow (20 - 40 kph), but sharp corners on steep downhills of piles of loose gravel were not what I would call comfortable.

I posted this question to a FB V85 group as well, and someone suggested getting the offroad and/or custom ride mode unlocked on my bike, so I could turn off TC and rear ABS.  That seems like a pretty good idea. I also wonder how much benefit I might get from changing out the Meridian tires for something like the Anakee Adventure 2.  Really don't want to give up much pavement performance though.

[Tkelly]

Despite 60 years of riding I dread gravel or dirt roads,my fear is of dumping the bike,especially my 14 Stelvio,in the middle of nowhere.Many yeas ago I rode dirt and had no fear on gravel but quit that long ago and lost the knack.

[Perazzimx14]

I bought the Strada version of the V85 because I had no intentions of ever doing any "real" off road riding, and so the skid plate and wire spoke wheels seemed like cosplay for my use case.

However, dirt roads are not out of the question.  Specifically, the last 7 km of the 250 km trip to the cottage consist of winding (TIGHT turns), hilly dirt road, with random sections of it covered in very fresh, loose gravel.  My 40 years of riding include approximately zero experience on such roads.

I braved it this weekend (multiple times in and out that road, including once in the wet), and find I am improving, but still have much to learn. 

The most important thing was learning to lean the bike underneath me while keeping my body upright.  I successfully installed this subroutine into the old meat computer, but WOW was it counter-intuitive at first.

Before attempting it the first time, I also programmed myself to stay off the front brake (also very counter-intuitive for a 100% asphalt rider), relying on engine braking (first or second gear) and sometimes the rear brake.

I also tried to stay loose on the bars and let the front wheel wander about a bit.

Any more advice for me, from those of you with lots of off road experience?  I never really scared myself because I was going pretty slow (20 - 40 kph), but sharp corners on steep downhills of piles of loose gravel were not what I would call comfortable.

I posted this question to a FB V85 group as well, and someone suggested getting the offroad and/or custom ride mode unlocked on my bike, so I could turn off TC and rear ABS.  That seems like a pretty good idea. I also wonder how much benefit I might get from changing out the Meridian tires for something like the Anakee Adventure 2.  Really don't want to give up much pavement performance though.

I am no Pol Tarres when it comes to dirt riding but have 100's of miles of gravel roads around the house and the biggest things i can tell you are ride loose and relaxed. The bike is going to move under you no matter what you do so let it. In deep gravel like boating you gotta get the bike up on plain. Sit back far in the saddle to unload the front and give it the beans. Deep gravel you either float on top or duck walk through it, not both.
Other than that, take your time relax and enjoy.

My bikes I can turn off the ABS/TC and select from several ride modes and 99% of the time when hitting the gravel I forget to do it. You're going to get all kinds of suggestions like more off-road oriented tires, different ride modes, disable the ABS etc and in the end they will enhance about the last 10% of you experience once you master the 1st 90% and that 90% is all you. I've ridden with guys on full dress Harleys and another on a Ducati monster with super sport tires and they handles gravel and even stream crossing just like everyone else. Theri enemy was ground clearance not tires or ride modes. Its the indian not the arrow. 

[MikeP996]

For several years I rode on a gravel road the last 7 miles to work.  This was on my regular street motorcycle/street tires at the time, not any sort of dirt oriented machine.  I found that contrary to my initial concerns, being in as high a gear as possible for whatever was a safe speed AND, as you noted, NOT trying to keep the front wheel aligned, allowing it to wander was best.  ALSO, and this may sound counterintuitive, going as fast as safely possible kept the ride much smoother.  The slower the speed and the lower the gear, the more uncomfortable/difficult was the ride.  Obviously the speed has to be within safely controllable limits depending on the situation. 

Additionally, as is always true on a motorcycle but even more in the gravel/dirt, look where you want the motorcycle to go.  Other than initially seeing an obstacle (ruts, large rocks, etc), do NOT keep looking at the obstacle(s) you are trying to avoid. 

You will probably find after a bit of such riding that it becomes "gravel road" muscle memory and you don't worry about it at all!!

[Dirk_S]

Outside of the occasional unmaintained dirt/gravel road that I’ll seek here in New England, I’m also fairly inexperienced to unpaved riding compared to my total miles ridden, but in 2024-25 I rode about 1,000 km of gravel in Argentina, and I just returned from riding about 1200 km of un-paved roads/paths in Mongolia. Two big factors stand out—the heavier the bike, the harder it is to learn and unlearn techniques, and tire tread really makes the difference. I high-sided in Argentina, and I blame it on a growing lack of confidence in the wearing tires I had on the KLR, which were 70/30 at best. Ideally on gravel, the faster you go, the more stable and predictive you’ll be; if you’re going to be experiencing turns and tighter maneuvering, I think 70/30 tires are the minimum. 50/50 would be better, and I noticed a lot of success from riders who had tires with the paddle-style block tread with uninterrupted gaps between blocks going across the tire. The blocks also need to have some depth and space inbetween for best grip. That tire style works for sand and mud as well.

In Mongolia, I dealt with gravel, dirt, mud, rocks, and some deeper sand occasionally, in which case the need for that paddle-style usurped by pure solid off-road grip.l for the varying terrain.

Getting your butt off the seat helps in gravel and sand because you’re not weighing the rear tire down, instead bringing you body mass more toward the center of the bike’s own mass while still allowing the front to not dig into the terrain too much. Keep that front loose.

And yes, avoid leaning your body into the turn, keep your balance on the outside, otherwise the inside of your tire has all the more impetus to slip. Weight should be on the outside peg. I’d personally turn off the ABS and traction control when possible.

[wirespokes]

Keep the bike upright, not leaned over, as much as possible. I found that dirt oriented tires gave up nothing on pavement.

[SIR REAL ED]

Years ago, I was riding on a gravel road with my buddy on his 650 V-Strom (has there ever been a stupider name for a motorcycle?).  Since he was a fairly new rider, the wandering of the bike on the gravel was freaking him out.

I told him to stand up and the bike will be more stable.  He said:  "You are nuts!"

I said: "Stand up for the next couple miles!"

Two miles down the road we pull over and he is all smiles.  He said "Wow!  You were right!"

My reply was appropriate for the situation!   

[PeteS]

Some 18 years ago or so many of my riding buddies got into off pavement riding. Then planned an Alaska trip all the way to Prudhoe Bay. They were mostly riding 650s and 690s so I got a KLR. Next year they moved up to 990s and 1200s and I knew I couldn’t keep up on the KLR so got a Triumph 800. I always sucked in the dirt but did many rides on gravel and even a bit a single track. Thankfully never crashed but was usually the last to catch up. Decided I was OK on gravel roads but single track, big rocks, sand, and streams were out so I would never be a true adventure rider but the occasional dirt road was OK of which there and many around here as well as out west where I had to turn around too many times because of the touring bike I was on. I feel confident the V85 will handle any of those roads.
As for technique, just ride slower and with a lighter front brake. Mostly common sense works.
Pete

[faffi]

I always despised gravel roads until I fitted 50/50 tires to my old Virago mongrel. It would track straight at 90 mph on loose gravel. And after a 2-hour crash course that usually took two days to complete, where we had to stop in deep, soft gravel with both wheels locked from 25 mph and rear wheel steer, putting weight on the outside peg while pressing the outside knee firm against the fuel tank, I felt like a champ. Standing on the pegs all the time, mind you. And instead of riding in the wheel-tracks made by cars, I began riding solely in the loose stuff because it was fun and felt safe to hang the rear end out.

Important to note: Tires matter a lot, with street tires on the same bike the rear wanted to come around at the slightest provocation. Also, all things being equal, longer wheelbase make the bike more stable at speed and less nervous. It also takes more effort to turn. I tried a KTM 690 Enduro and it was weaving constantly, but not alarmingly, above 50-60 mph all the way to 80, which was the fastest I went since it was not my bike. FWIW, last weekend I rode my BT1100, with well worn 17in sport-touring tires made back in 2019, on gravel, and it was rock steady doing 60 mph in the loose gravel that always tend to form between wheel-tracks. Great fun, but I slowed early and went gently on the brakes - if 555 lbs starts to slide out, catching it with the tires fitted will take a much better rider than me.

Final advice: If somebody offer a gravel-riding course for beginners near you, enlist!

[draco_1967]

However, dirt roads are not out of the question.  Specifically, the last 7 km of the 250 km trip to the cottage consist of winding (TIGHT turns), hilly dirt road, with random sections of it covered in very fresh, loose gravel.  My 40 years of riding include approximately zero experience on such roads.

I braved it this weekend (multiple times in and out that road, including once in the wet), and find I am improving, but still have much to learn. 

The most important thing was learning to lean the bike underneath me while keeping my body upright.  I successfully installed this subroutine into the old meat computer, but WOW was it counter-intuitive at first.

Before attempting it the first time, I also programmed myself to stay off the front brake (also very counter-intuitive for a 100% asphalt rider), relying on engine braking (first or second gear) and sometimes the rear brake.

I also tried to stay loose on the bars and let the front wheel wander about a bit.

Any more advice for me, from those of you with lots of off road experience?  I never really scared myself because I was going pretty slow (20 - 40 kph), but sharp corners on steep downhills of piles of loose gravel were not what I would call comfortable.

Loose gravel on top of a hard-packed surface sucks, even on a lighter bike with aggressive tires. It's like riding on marbles. It sounds like you have the techniques down. Easy on brakes, lean the bike under you, let the bike dance around. I would caution that standing alone isn't going to make the bike handle better. It will help you have a little more control over the bike if you are in the proper position. Don't be a meerkat, but get into "attack" position. 

[Huzo]

Please don’t go through the rest of your life thinking that taking your weight off the seat and standing up “lowers your centre of gravity”.
It does not, it actually raises your centre of mass marginally but changes your point of support, if you had 6’ long legs and stood up on the pegs with 3’ gap between your ass and the seat, do you still think you have lowered your centre of gravity ?
Again, you have not.
I promise you this is correct, Newton said so…
(That’s Isaac Newton, not Wayne..)
Same with “putting your weight on the outside peg…”
If you stand up and put more weight on your right foot, you will be putting more weight on your left hand.
Try it today…!
The tyre does not know the difference.

[Dirk_S]

Huzo, not sure if your reply was in response to my comment, but a couple notes for clarification:

I didn’t say that standing up raises or lowers the center of gravity with you or the bike, but instead moves *your* mass forward toward the bike’s center of mass, adding more harmony and responsiveness between you and the bike. Standing also adds your body into the suspension conversation, which I didn’t mention.

Also not sure why you’re arguing against the peg weighting bit. For off-pavement, going into turns or riding on an incline certainly requires some shift in balance, and those instances are what I was referring to. In those cases, you will not be ‘counter-balancing’ forces onto the other side with the handlebar.

 And if I’m wrong, I suppose so are the enduro and dual-sport riders who rode with me in Mongolia and were absolutely axing the loose stuff, deep ruts, and riding on hill angles for so much of our trip.

[moto]

If your legs and arm were completely rigid so that your torso was solidly coupled to the motorcycle body, then Huzo's point would be apt. The motorcycle and rider combo is properly analyzed as a loosely coupled system here. Appeals to Newton are in vain. Newton never rode a motorcycle and never analyzed it as a dynamical system.

One thing I would add is the importance of steering the bike with the throttle in loose conditions. Even more than on the street. You open that throttle, the rear steps out, you give it some gas and you're on your way. The other comments about being loose on the controls are OK but instead of just being passive, it helps to be active.

[SIR REAL ED]

If your legs and arm were completely rigid so that your torso was solidly coupled to the motorcycle body, then Huzo's point would be apt. The motorcycle and rider combo is properly analyzed as a loosely coupled system here. Appeals to Newton are in vain. Newton never rode a motorcycle and never analyzed it as a dynamical system.

One thing I would add is the importance of steering the bike with the throttle in loose conditions. Even more than on the street. You open that throttle, the rear steps out, you give it some gas and you're on your way. The other comments about being loose on the controls are OK but instead of just being passive, it helps to be active.

Exactly, if we want to get the Newtons involved, we should be asking Wayne's opinion, not Isaac's opinion!!!

[PeteS]

Exactly, if we want to get the Newtons involved, we should be asking Wayne's opinion, not Isaac's opinion!!!

If Wayne has a clue he will be standing on the pegs for better control and his bike will like it better too. Easier if its pivoting on the pegs rather than trying to lift butts off the seat.

Pete

[LowRyter]

+1 on the front brake, won't tell you how I know.

[SIR REAL ED]

"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, in practice, there is!"

Stability while riding on a gravel road standing up vs. sitting down, is the simplest technique in the world to test. 

Hopefully, Yellowduck will give it a try and find out one way or the other.

[Huzo]

Huzo, not sure if your reply was in response to my comment, but a couple notes for clarification:

I didn’t say that standing up raises or lowers the center of gravity with you or the bike, but instead moves *your* mass forward toward the bike’s center of mass, adding more harmony and responsiveness between you and the bike. Standing also adds your body into the suspension conversation, which I didn’t mention.

Also not sure why you’re arguing against the peg weighting bit. For off-pavement, going into turns or riding on an incline certainly requires some shift in balance, and those instances are what I was referring to. In those cases, you will not be ‘counter-balancing’ forces onto the other side with the handlebar.

 And if I’m wrong, I suppose so are the enduro and dual-sport riders who rode with me in Mongolia and were absolutely axing the loose stuff, deep ruts, and riding on hill angles for so much of our trip.

All I’m saying Dirk is that we have no power over where the balance point is and therefore we cannot “shift balance”. Balance is when all the forces arranged around the centre of mass are at zero. You can put your weight in a different place, but the bikes weight will be consequently moved to put the C of M back to over the point of support.
I agree that our hero does all sorts juxtapositioning to achieve the result he seeks and does so to good effect, but referring to his extraordinary skill and success does not mean you can randomly assign reasons as to why that success was achieved.
Marc Marquez can eat a strawberry donut then go out and win a Moto GP race, but that is not WHY he won that race.
Also Newton did not ride a bike I agree and Einstein did not travel at the speed of light, but they had more than a working man’s comprehension of the factors involved.

[SIR REAL ED]

I LOVE THESE THREADS!!!!!   

Go out to the garage.  Sit on the bike and try to balance on two wheels.  Now stand on the pegs and try the same.  Is there a difference?

Trials riders while at a stop, when they start to lose balance will kick one leg or the other out to the side to regain balance.  They will often do it when riding down a log.

I think Rossi was the first MotoGP rider to start throwing one leg out to the side when braking for a turn.  I remember thinking "That looks odd.  Is he trying to psych them out?"  Almost all of them do it now.

We now know why Isaac Newton never won even a single trials event or MotoGP race......  What a loser!

[MikeP996]

Over dinner one evening I asked a former world champion Moto GP racer (his parents are good friends) "Why do current Moto GP riders put the leg out to one side for a turn?"  He responded, "I have no idea! If it would have helped, we would have done it!"  In further talking he said he thought it was initially done more to "get attention" on camera rather than actually being useful for cornering.

[Perazzimx14]

Over dinner one evening I asked a former world champion Moto GP racer (his parents are good friends) "Why do current Moto GP riders put the leg out to one side for a turn?"  He responded, "I have no idea! If it would have helped, we would have done it!"  In further talking he said he thought it was initially done more to "get attention" on camera rather than actually being useful for cornering.

I always heard that being folded up like a deck chair on a GP bike this is a quick opprutnintiy to give the ole gam a stretch. Urban legend, old wives tale, hot dogging for the camera, reality......who knows??

[Dirk_S]

All I’m saying Dirk is that we have no power over where the balance point is and therefore we cannot “shift balance”. Balance is when all the forces arranged around the centre of mass are at zero. You can put your weight in a different place, but the bikes weight will be consequently moved to put the C of M back to over the point of support.
I agree that our hero does all sorts juxtapositioning to achieve the result he seeks and does so to good effect, but referring to his extraordinary skill and success does not mean you can randomly assign reasons as to why that success was achieved.
Marc Marquez can eat a strawberry donut then go out and win a Moto GP race, but that is not WHY he won that race.
Also Newton did not ride a bike I agree and Einstein did not travel at the speed of light, but they had more than a working man’s comprehension of the factors involved.

I'm curious if you're applying pavement riding skills, along with the accompanying myths, to gravel/dirt riding? If so, I think that's a mistake. At the end of the day, of course forces counter one another--the earth pushes back, yada yada. But when you're turning or on an angle, more forces can and should be applied to one side to help the tire grip. After all, the countering forces change direction, as does friction. I'm not sure there's a dual-sport or adventure professional/expert out there who'll say otherwise.

But I'm so confused, because I thought all Aussie dudes came out of the womb wearing goggles and learned to ride dirtbikes before they could walk.

[SIR REAL ED]

Over dinner one evening I asked a former world champion Moto GP racer (his parents are good friends) "Why do current Moto GP riders put the leg out to one side for a turn?"  He responded, "I have no idea! If it would have helped, we would have done it!"  In further talking he said he thought it was initially done more to "get attention" on camera rather than actually being useful for cornering.

Interesting!  I don't remember if it was Kenny Roberts or someone else who first started hanging off their race bike to allow the bike to stay more upright while cornering.  That is easy to understand.  Soon all the racers were doing so.

IIRC, Gary Nixon was still straight up in the saddle while other racers were hanging off.

I've done the leg out while cornering a dirt bike.  It does seem to add stability.  Never tried it on a street bike.  Doubt I ever will try it on the street.

[faffi]

Saarinen was the rider that Roberts learned hanging off from.

I am pretty shure that the point(s) of contact matter when it comes to CoG. This would indicate a lower CoG from standing on the pegs instead of supporting most of the weight through the seat via the bum. But perhaps the greatest benefit from standing up while riding on gravel is being able to move about.

[MikeP996]

Frequent standing is useful/necessary in off-road riding for obstacles, fording streams, mud, etc.  But it is not necessary - or even possible - for extended periods such as riding for miles on a gravel road.  Riding on a gravel road is initially disconcerting because of the front wheel's tendency to "hunt" and the rider's tendency to apply a death grip to stop it. Once you relax and allow that normal movement, riding down a gravel road is just...riding down the road.  ;)

Of course, "gravel road" may mean different things.  To me the term means a graded road that is covered with gravel instead of asphalt - the old Alaska Highway, for example.  It was all gravel for 1000+ miles when I traveled it in 1980 but you could maintain fairly high speed on it with no trouble (it's all paved now).  However if "gravel road" is taken to mean a road that is largely gravel but also full of large rocks, many ruts, tree limbs/other such obstructions that need to be dodged/jumped, that's a different deal and closer to "off road!"  ;)  I have been on such roads in Mexico and they are a serious challenge for a rider on a road bike/street tires - to the point of (me on my R9T) saying, "No, you guys go on, I'll go around via the highway and meet you [wherever]."

[mechanicsavant]

It has been my experience to not only stand on the pegs ,but also grip the tank with your knees . That’s what the tank pads are for . As for road racers hanging a leg when going into a corner. When braking so as to unload the rear wheel the leg act as a bit of an air brake and keep the wheel from stepping out to the wrong side .Though I have noticed a few GP racers airing out the up side leg your results may vary!

[MG_rider]

Keep the bike upright, not leaned over, as much as possible. I found that dirt oriented tires gave up nothing on pavement.

This ^^^

Keep the bike vertical, hang off to the inside, clamping tank with outside leg. Stay in the seat.  Steer the bike like a car (steering, no counter steering).
This works because the front wheel stays vertical vs. leaned into the turn as on pavement.  When the front is vertical, it won't tuck, avoiding to a lowside or worse.  It might slide, but it won't tuck.  Yeah, turnoff traction control too.

I use the front brake going into the turn with above technique.  That loads the front tire which adds traction, allowing one to "steer" as needed. It also gives data point on how much traction is available to the front going in, and allows reducing speed with the front brake as needed.

Start rolling on past the slowest part of the turn, let the rear come around a bit to finish the turn.

Pushing a big bike down going in is asking for a front tuck with a heavy street bike on street tires.  Can do that with a light 250 on knobs (I do) but can't recommend it, especially for negative camber left turns.

[faffi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unaRkye1OBk&pp=ygUicGV0ZXIgZWdhbiBjeWNsZSB3b3JsZCBkZXNlcnQgc2xlZA%3D%3D

[Perazzimx14]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unaRkye1OBk&pp=ygUicGV0ZXIgZWdhbiBjeWNsZSB3b3JsZCBkZXNlcnQgc2xlZA%3D%3D

https://youtu.be/EMrxee_fazo

[faffi]

He is very funny and very skilled, well worth watching.