*California 1400 Merged Threadfest*

[Matteo]

V7 Scrambler! I'm a happy man!

[rocker59]

Upon futher review of the Nuova Cali photos, that engine sure looks tall.  And, there is something dark between the frame tubes.  Radiator?

The valve covers look like vaporware.

I'm guessing this is a mockup of the liquid-cooled 3v mill...

[guzziboy66]

I think that I read somewhere that Piaggio has stated that they want Guzzi to compete with BMW.  (Don't shoot me if I did not get that exactly correct)  I think that is a good goal for Guzzi.  I do not think that it means the end of sporting Guzzis.  So I'm wondering why not follw BMWs lead and make an air/oil cooled engine. Design a 4-valve oil cooled head for the engine.  I'm not an engineer and don't pretend to understand to all the challenges involved and so this might not be a good idea but... Why not?  Seriously.

Eric

[Greg Field]

Greg said,

"I agree Danilo. Those new folks aren't going to by transverse-V engines that are water-cooled any more than they bought the air-cooled versions.

It's time to move on to—or at least add on—another engine architecture that has chance of bringing success. The transverse-V has been a sales loser for 40 years. The architecture is what keeps Guzzi stuck in the past, not the fact that it's air-cooled.

Guzzi has been bankrupt almost continually since the V7 engine's inception."



Hmmm, I might be wrong, but I don't think that's the point Danlio is trying to make.

I realize that. Danilo realizes that Guzzi needs to draw in new people to survive. I agree with that. That's where we part company, though. Danilo and others think that modernizing and water-cooling an unpopular motor will suddenly make it popular and make it appeal to all these "new" people Guzzi needs to attract. Further, they think the old-school guys like me are suggesting that modernizing the old lump is folly because we're resistant to change. What I'm really suggesting is that modernizing the old lump is the worst possible course of action because it will drive off the traditionalists and will not draw in enough new converts to pay for the effort. The transverse-V twin motorcycle engine has too many drawbacks to ever really gain popularity. So, I'm suggesting scrapping the old Guzzi motor and finding a new architecture to carry the company forward. Is that more clear?

[dgurovich]

+1

[rocker59]

I guess Honda has yet to get the memo that says longitudinal liquid-cooled engine architecture doesn't make sense...

 ;)

[Greg Field]

I guess Honda has yet to get the memo that says longitudinal liquid-cooled engine architecture doesn't make sense...

 ;)

How many are twins? When you make fours, sixes, or eights, the whole game changes because, displacement for displacement, the stroke will be much less on the multis. Folks here are talking about water-cooling the Guzzi twins. That won't give any sales advantage over the air-cooled motor Piaggio (Guzzi is dead) already has.

[FGO]

A company that Harley sold for one dollar made this sucker, looks pretty sweeeet to me.... but at only 140 bhp, its a bit down on power for a 675....

[Rainman]

I guess Honda has yet to get the memo that says longitudinal liquid-cooled engine architecture doesn't make sense...

 ;)

It would seem BMW got the memo about longitudinal twin cylinder engine architecture. With their other 1,2,3,4 & 6 cylinder models. But...

On 27 July 2007, the BMW R1200GS and R1200GS Adventure reached a production record of 100,000 units since its launch in 2004, making it the most popular BMW motorcycle.

Oilhead production history

From the start of oilhead production in 1994 until 27 July 2007, a total of 219,468 oilhead GS bikes were produced.[6] Oilhead GS models are listed below together with production figures where known:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_GS

IMHO the Guzzi 90° V is a better layout than the flat BMW Boxer motor.

And as far as water cooling it's just a matter of time and time is running out.

BMW is in the early stages of making an all-new, super-efficient, Euro4 compliant water-cooled replacement for its iconic Boxer engine.

The new engine is being developed because of tough Euro4 emissions which come in to force from 2012, and the current air-cooled engine doesn’t meet the new standards.

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/New-bikes/2010/April/apr2310-bmw-gears-up-for-liquid-cooled-gs/

[Pescara]

Folks here are talking about water-cooling the Guzzi twins. That won't give any sales advantage over the air-cooled motor Piaggio (Guzzi is dead) already has.

+101

Greg, a lot of these guys have never learned what you have, they don't know what you know, and they never will.  In 10 years they'll be preaching some other transient point of view for some other transient organization.  It's not worth caring.

The funniest part is 5-10 years of abject failure by Piaggio and Aprilia in the motorcycle biz, millions lost, propped by their 50 year entrenched GM-style but slowly fading scooter business, characterized as success.

[Big Block Jon]

Folks here are talking about water-cooling the Guzzi twins. That won't give any sales advantage over the air-cooled motor Piaggio (Guzzi is dead) already has.

People love the look of a Guzzi, many would be willing to buy on that basis.  But then they find out that the bike they're ogling is 40 hp down on the competition. They don't like that. Period.

We talk a lot of squat on here about most people not being able to use big horsepower, or not really needing big horsepower.  Maybe so, but they want it.

So the question is, will water cooling get the existing lump 30 or more extra HP?  If so, I believe it would generate a significant sales boost.

[Rainman]

In 10 years they'll be preaching some other transient point of view for some other transient organization. 

???

Transient?  I'm a youngster in Guzzi years and bought my first one about 30 years ago. And Moto Guzzi has been building unusually configured motorcycles since 1921. That would be about 90 years.

[Pescara]

In 10 years they'll be preaching some other transient point of view for some other transient organization. 

???

Transient?  I'm a youngster in Guzzi years and bought my first one about 30 years ago. And Moto Guzzi has been building unusually configured motorcycles since 1921. That would be about 90 years.

Piaggio isn't Moto Guzzi.

[Murray]

. Folks here are talking about water-cooling the Guzzi twins. That won't give any sales advantage over the air-cooled motor Piaggio (Guzzi is dead) already has.

Water cooling will have one advantage over aircooling, in years to come you will be able to sell a water cooled motor for road use. They are not doing because they want too, they are doing it because they have too.

[rocker59]

Sadly, I do not believe that having the likes of Tamburini design an F4-beating LeMans, or Marabese design a Goldwing-beating V-4 uber-tourer could/would "save" Moto Guzzi, or bring it into "the mainstream".

 :-\

[Greg Field]

. Folks here are talking about water-cooling the Guzzi twins. That won't give any sales advantage over the air-cooled motor Piaggio (Guzzi is dead) already has.

Water cooling will have one advantage over aircooling, in years to come you will be able to sell a water cooled motor for road use. They are not doing because they want too, they are doing it because they have too.

Murray: No disrespect intended, but can I tell you when I first heard this sentiment?

1980. Yep 1980. 31 years, or 210 dog years ago. The guy who said it was as certain of its truth as you are now. Sure, because of the passing of decades, you are probably more right than he, but still, the fat lady ain't sung yet.

[Rainman]

Piaggio isn't Moto Guzzi.

Moto Guzzi hasn't been Moto Guzzi since the 60s. And Triumph isn't Triumph & Chrysler isn't Chrysler & Jeep isn't Willys & Oldsmobile...isn't.
Even Harley has changed hands a couple of times.

[Greg Field]

In regards to Moto Guzzi, the above statement is not factual.

There was always an old guard and always a spirit holding on, until very recently. Now, they realized that there is nothing left and have dissipated. Poof. Gone. Believe it or not. It is factual.

In an analogy that should resonate with Americans: Moto Guzzi is Oldsmobile.

Guzzi could possibly be resurrected, but only by an Italian entrepreneur with more romance and money than sense, and it would be a huge undertaking.

[Kev m]

I don't hate it...

[Unkept]

Ducati is doing pretty well with their new designs... and Guzzi has one that is very similar aesthetically . Why not bring the MGS-01 into production for street use?

[JohninVT`]

I still don't see why liquid cooling would make the bike any less a Guzzi.  Hell, why not source a Rotax single and make a shaft drive, KLR style Guzzi for that matter?  Put a fricken' baloney slicer on the side and call it good.     

[guzziboy66]

Love me that MGS-01.   ;-T  Sadly, it will never happen.  (Just my opinion)

What makes a guzzi a guzzi?

Essentially: Engine, Clutch/ trans and Shaft drive. Then add in historical models of the lineage like: V7 Sport, Le Mans, Eldorado, California, etc.

So what I think I see here is that Guzzi should not be able to survive as is.
There is great reluctance to change, but change is needed.
The engine is recognized as both - the best part and the part holding the brand back.

I think a two part strategy is needed.

1. Retain the air cooled twin for several more years and keep ministering to the faithful
2. Introduce new engine architecture and transition to it over time using historical names and styling cues.

One of many caveats - It will never work if there are no dealers to support it.

Eric

[SRX6]

I remember all of the same arguments being made in the nineties when the rumor mill indicated that Harley Davidson was developing a liquid cooled engine. It arrived to great fanfare as the V-Rod in 2001 and was going to be the future of the HD v-twin. Guess what? It is now ten years later and the V-rod is no great success and I do not believe that anyone considers it the future of HD. Nor does anyone consider it a "real" Harley Davidson.

As for Moto-Guzzi, I believe that there is nothing we can do to prevent this fabulous marque from slowly disappearing into the history books. Let's enjoy it while it lasts. Scrape up some cash, buy a left over model (I see that there are still "new" 2004 Stones available among many others). Soon, they will be gone and so will Guzzi, its memory kept alive by the faithful.

If you don't believe it, I challenge anyone to mention a "healthy" motorcycle company with a clear product strategy. They have all lost their way. I mean, Honda is building "choppers" for goodness sake. Suzuki didn't even bring any 2010 models into this country. Kawasaki, Yamaha? Who knows. BMW's best seller is now the S1000RR. Certainly a great bike, but what does it have to do with BMW? The "real" beemer guys lust after the "airhead" models that ended production in the eighties. Triumph are probably the smartest guys around, but the Hinckley Triumph has nothing to do with the Meriden Triumph except the name. I "like" the new Triumph but I "love" the old Triumph.

The Triumph analogy is kinda where we stand with Guzzi. I still "love" the current Guzzi, but in a few years when Piaggio is finished with them, I fear I will just "like" Guzzis. I wonder if those left over Stones were still built in Mandello del Lario?

[Lannis]

. Folks here are talking about water-cooling the Guzzi twins. That won't give any sales advantage over the air-cooled motor Piaggio (Guzzi is dead) already has.

Water cooling will have one advantage over aircooling, in years to come you will be able to sell a water cooled motor for road use. They are not doing because they want too, they are doing it because they have too.

Murray: No disrespect intended, but can I tell you when I first heard this sentiment?

1980. Yep 1980. 31 years, or 210 dog years ago. The guy who said it was as certain of its truth as you are now. Sure, because of the passing of decades, you are probably more right than he, but still, the fat lady ain't sung yet.

I really wish there had been an Internet in 1966-67 so we could go back to the archives and hear the "Real Guzzi Is Dead" prognostications when they went from a horizontal exposed-flywheel 500 chain-drive single to a 700cc shaft-drive twin ..... !  Talk about a CHANGE!   Talk about the Soul of Guzzi .... !

[blackcat]

I put the photo in iPhoto and enlarged it to full screen. Looks like dual exhaust and a regular non-carc swing arm with huge valve covers and something suspiciously large between the headers. Radial calipers up front on some massive fork legs and a well proportioned headlight. The tank has some chrome details on top; maybe some additional clocks,etc? Those look like cast, non spoke rims.   I am not a big fan of cruiser's but this looks like a very good direction for the new Cali.  

[bpreynolds]

First thing I thought of when seeing the Cali, this before reading any of the propaganda, was Ambo.  Frankly I would like to see better pics, but on the whole I love it and commend them for trying something other than the eggplant tank that I have a love/hate relationship with.  I could be wrong but it vaguely appears to have chrome head covers?  If so, I'm not much on bling and never grew to like the chromed ones on the Cali Special I used to have.  Still, these couple photos look kinda sexy, modern and new.  Obviously, would like to know more about the new mill and other aspects of the bike.

I don't care for Scramblers, so the V7 version here does not appeal to me.  

[leafman60]

BMW's best seller is now the S1000RR.

Nope.  Sales of the BMW crotch rocket are far from the top of their line.  The GS holds that title by a wide margin. The S1000 gets a lot of press play because of it's power etc but sales have not been huge at all.

[Pfaff!]

$$flaccid whale penis shape$$

Pete?
Izzat you ???  ;D

[Gabe EV]

Let me start with the negatives, I am not a fan of "Scramblers", so the V7 is not for me. BUT that Cali, I would buy that one in a New-York-Minit. It looks like they have done all the things I would like in a new Cali.....Lower, longer looking, sleek, ( I think the pipes do that ) ,,, and I like the cut outs in the tank, it shows what is truly at the center of each Guzzi, the engine.....at least people won't confuse it with HD. It also looks like there were no changes in rake and trail at the steering head so it should handle as good as or better than the current Cali's, I would like to see the other side to see if they changed the brake pedal system, and went to a more traditional pedal assy .........Regards   GabeEv

[falcone]

What about an 850 Scrambler? Apologies if people have seen this before but I've only just come across it I like it!!!