My California Vintage handles like a dog.

[rocker59]

The Vintage weaves in a straight line above 75mph, and bucks and weaves through bends if pushed even a little.  

Have you considered the possibility of rider input causing this?

What does the bike do when you take one hand off the bars?

If taking a hand off the bars causes the weave to cease, it's simply rider input and you're riding with stiff arms.

Loosen your grip and relax your arms and see if that helps...

[Don Ivey]

What Wayne said about the steering damper.  I think too tight is worse than too loose, or completely loose.  Whatever is causing it, do one fix at a time and ride to be able to evaluate what the problem was.  Good luck,

Don Ivey
'83 1000SP

[Wayne Orwig]

My vintage used to weave terrible at anything over 75MPH

Raise the forks about half an inch through the tripple tree that will cure the weaving, it did on mine.

Let me know how you get on

Just to clearify. You mean for the tubes to go down 1/2". Correct?

The fork legs protrude through the top of the triple tree by half an inch

I never understood the steering angle/trail stuff much. But that sounds opposite of what you would want.

Always worth a try though.

[guzzijack]

I don't think 'Marathons' are available in the UK. - I read about them here before fitting the BT45's but my tyre guy couldn't get 'em. I'll look into it again.

Marathons not available in the UK? That tyre guy can't have tried very hard. I've got a Marathon rear and a Lasertech front on my '97 EV and they are shaping up to be a very good combination for handling v mileage. Did you look on the Metzler UK website?

http://www.metzelermoto.co.uk/web/catalog/moto/moto_catalogo_schedaDescription.page?uri=/metzeler/en_GB/browser/xml/catalog/moto/Custom_ME_880_Marathon.xml&vehicleType=MOTO&menu_item=/products/catalog/custom



GJ

Are you using the 110/80 in the Lasertech?

No, I've stayed with the O/E sizes on my '97 EV - 110/90 Lasertech front and the 140/80 Marathon rear.

Whenever I first get on the bike it does feel as if it wants to drop into corners more readily than the other Guzzis but after a couple of corners that goes away. Might be due to the tyres or big bars giving more rider input?

Straightline and all other aspects of handling are fine and the bike has the big Guzzi barndoor screen.

My steering damper is backed right off.

GJ

[pjb]

having had a 1999 bassa with BT45's on it and  Mikes XS 650 $75.00  shocks and a 2001 cali EV with Metzler Lasertech's works performance shocks. The Bassa would out handle the EV even 2 up. I have since put Michliens on the EV and this past weekend found the head set to be loose, I have not had it out on the road yet .
My past experience is my 2001 EV handles like crap it does not want to go thru a turn. does not realy wobble just requires more body then the Bassa.  
Hopefully this weekend i can up date this with a positive report on my 2001 EV

My old '96 California was a great handling bike, perhaps I'm expecting too much of the Vintage - though it's bordering on 'dangerous' if you push it - shouldn't be that bad.

The swing arm looks quite weak compared to the old bike which had 'beefy' round section arms instead of the narrowed flat section of the newer type (non shaft side) - modified to accomodate a wider tyre I believe. Does any one know if they are they interchangable?

Thanks
Lou.

The bike should not weave the way it does above 75mph the problem, I think,  is something associated with the weight on the front wheel when you reach 75mph, if you lean forward when the bike starts weaving it reduces the effect. I had thought that a "firmer" set of rear shocks might cure the problem (they would stop the rear end of the bike squatting down and reducing the weight on the front wheel) but you have replaced your standard shocks with Koni??????

I raised the forks through the triple tree in order to alter the bikes centre of gravity and it does raise the speed at which the bike starts to weave to around 90 mph, so I may be on the right track. My old T3 handled much better than the Vintage does, your bike is the only other Vintage, that I know of, that has this problem.

At 75mph why does the front wheel get lighter, it must have something to do with the back end squatting down.

I have also checked the head bearing etc etc

[mtiberio]

broken frame or triple clamp?

[Steve Scott]

having had a 1999 bassa with BT45's on it and  Mikes XS 650 $75.00  shocks and a 2001 cali EV with Metzler Lasertech's works performance shocks. The Bassa would out handle the EV even 2 up. I have since put Michliens on the EV and this past weekend found the head set to be loose, I have not had it out on the road yet .
My past experience is my 2001 EV handles like crap it does not want to go thru a turn. does not realy wobble just requires more body then the Bassa.  
Hopefully this weekend i can up date this with a positive report on my 2001 EV

My old '96 California was a great handling bike, perhaps I'm expecting too much of the Vintage - though it's bordering on 'dangerous' if you push it - shouldn't be that bad.

The swing arm looks quite weak compared to the old bike which had 'beefy' round section arms instead of the narrowed flat section of the newer type (non shaft side) - modified to accomodate a wider tyre I believe. Does any one know if they are they interchangable?

Thanks
Lou.

The bike should not weave the way it does above 75mph the problem, I think,  is something associated with the weight on the front wheel when you reach 75mph, if you lean forward when the bike starts weaving it reduces the effect. I had thought that a "firmer" set of rear shocks might cure the problem (they would stop the rear end of the bike squatting down and reducing the weight on the front wheel) but you have replaced your standard shocks with Koni??????

I raised the forks through the triple tree in order to alter the bikes centre of gravity and it does raise the speed at which the bike starts to weave to around 90 mph, so I may be on the right track. My old T3 handled much better than the Vintage does, your bike is the only other Vintage, that I know of, that has this problem.

At 75mph why does the front wheel get lighter, it must have something to do with the back end squatting down.

I have also checked the head bearing etc etc

  Weight shifts off the front and onto the rear due to the fact that the aerodynamic center of pressure is above the ground, and the shift is dramatic because the wheelbase is short.

  Your comment about shifting forward reminds me of a high-speed weave my Jackal had years ago, which I found to be caused by me. I was supporting myself against the wind with my arms out straight, and at 80 mph or so the bike would weave, and leaning forward stopped the weave. The problem was  completely rider induced, and since learning not to impart any forces onto the bars besides steering inputs It hasn't resurfaced, even with 97,000 mile on the stock shocks.

  A slight weave when leaned over at 90+ mph might be normal on a stock Cali though. Mine doesn't like that much either.

[rocker59]

   ...reminds me of a high-speed weave my Jackal had years ago, which I found to be caused by me. I was supporting myself against the wind with my arms out straight, and at 80 mph or so the bike would weave, and leaning forward stopped the weave.

...The problem was  completely rider induced, and since learning not to impart any forces onto the bars besides steering inputs It hasn't resurfaced, even with 97,000 mile on the stock shocks.

 

My thoughts exactly.

Stiff-arming a bike with wide bars will impart a weave due to the wind hitting the rider's upper body...

[Lou Snuts]

Okay - update, I've spent all evening in the garage and checked;

Engine and frame bolts are tight, battery tray too, looked for breaks/cracks in the frame - all okay.

All spokes 'ringing' nicely.

The wheel spacers look to be in the correct sequence on the spindles, and there is no sideways drift. (Front spacers are mudguard stay brackets on this model so they must be right)

I've nipped the head bearing nut down aprox 60 degrees - it felt okay before, and it still feels okay (so maybe it was a tad loose?) checked all fork bolts as I was doing it.

The Koni shocks are 368mm centres (same as the Sachs they replaced). They have improved things over the stock Sachs. Koni are now marketed as Ikon (anagram) they have progressive springs with three tension settings and four way damping adjustment. They are marketed for this bike and model (part 7610 -1607).

I hope to get out and try it tomorrow if it ever stops raining - and I'll try all the 'rider input' stuff thats been suggested -relax, arms bent, lean forward to stop weave etc.

I haven't moved the forks up yet (one thing at a time (and it didn't help much last time I tried it)).

It's been suggested I nip the swingarm too (though it too feels okay) How do I do this please? mine has a 30mm nut with a hole in the middle and an allen screw inside the hole. I'd guess that I slacken the nut and wind the allen screw in, and nip the nut up again - correct? any tourqe values or is it done by 'feel'?

Many thanks once more for the input.

Lou.

[Lou Snuts]

Oh yeh, I took the steering damper off too to clean up, and I've left it off for now to see the effect.

Lou.

[Sheepdog]

My vintage used to weave terrible at anything over 75MPH

Raise the forks about half an inch through the tripple tree that will cure the weaving, it did on mine.

Let me know how you get on

Wow, I have to try this.  My Vintage wobbles a bit (only over 85 or 90), but I assumed it was because of the larger than stock Rifle windshield.  As for the other problems listed by the original poster; I had a bike years ago that had wheel alignment problems (caused by improperly marked chain adjusters).  Checking and correcting the alignment with a couple of straightedges fixed the problem for me.  I realize that the shaft drive complicates this, but at least you can check it.

[Morizzi]

It's been suggested I nip the swingarm too (though it too feels okay) How do I do this please? mine has a 30mm nut with a hole in the middle and an allen screw inside the hole. I'd guess that I slacken the nut and wind the allen screw in, and nip the nut up again - correct? any tourqe values or is it done by 'feel'?

Lou,

The pins need to be home, not tensioned. You are right, the 30mm lock nut is just that and the allen head is 8mm. Make sure the swing arm is in the centre between the frame. screw the pins in until they are just firm against the bearing. Give the swing arm a bit of a sideways tug to feel for any play.

Hope it helps.

[Aaron]

FWIW, I never had a wobble on my 2002 EV, but I was always aware that I could not take my hands off the bars and coast.  I'd see guys from time to time ride by hands off like I used to do as a kid on my bike.  It bothered me that the bike didn't track straight, even though I never had any intention of riding in the "Hey Mom look at Me!!' hands free position.  
 
 It has disappeared and this is what I did.

1)I balanced my throttle bodies and did the TPS.  This reduces the vibes and I feel allowed the bike to track better.  

2)I switched the bars to Dirt bike bars.  This moved my weight forward. It gives, to ME, a much more confident riding postion.  I never liked the EV fat bars.

3) I learned to steer with my feet. Thank you Todd Eagan and Rich Rodriguez. So I agree with rider input as a possible issue.

4) Taller seat - more comfortable better riding postion.  

I did this all at once so I can't say what did it, but my EV is now a Sport bike.  of course with half the power and twice the weight of a current sport bike, but I love it.  

I also previously, upgraded the front and rear suspension, opened the air box, punched the mufflers, added H-pipe, PC3, raised the front fork in the triple tree 1/2"( lowered the front end), advanced brake pedal and changes to the Sport wind shield.  I endorse all these changes, but none changed the why the bike tracked.

I run Metzler 880 marathons front and back.  I have never had an issue with them.

I bring this up because if the bike doesn't track straight that could be a wobble at high speed.

a final thought, If the weight is the issue as suggested above i would suggest you loose the heavy metal hard cases and test ride.  That would shift the over mass of the bike forward with out you having to move.

[LowRyter]

I have a 98 EV V11 with windshield and ME 880 tires.

I recently road the new Cal Vin at the test ride at the National Rally.  My impressions: better power, better shifting, less leg room, wider bars (too wide), and not quite as stable handling.  I didn't check the tires.

also regarding tires.  I recently replaced the tires with new 880s.  The rear first, didn't seem to effect the handling.  Then did the front, it must've have taken 200 miles before it felt right.  Seemed to run wide at every turn (totally the opposite of all profile radials I've ridden).  After they wore in, drove fine.  Must explain why they get such good mileage.

[luthier]

I'm none too happy with my 93Cali3  for handling either. I've rebuilt the internal fork dampeners twice, fitted Ikon shocks, lowered the front end by dropping the forks in the triple tree, fitted new wheel bearings front and back, including having the hub on the back machined and sleeved with steel to repair the bearing housing, thrown away the steering damper, changed the bars to almost straight ones, I run standard Metzler Lasertechs front and back and so on. However I am just about to fit progressive fork springs and I think that could change everything. All the other things made a slight improvement but with soft springs I don't think it could ever work properly. I believe these springs were bad from day 1 according to many stories I've heard.
Just wondering if that could be an issue with the new bikes.
Hope you find the problem.

[Hal]

Just throwing this out there, as all are more knowledgeable. Is there a possibility of a rear shock being defective? Don't know if there adjustable on the Cal Vin,

H

[Dave Swanson]

OK, anyone have a Vintage that doesn't handle like a dog?

[John Ulrich]

I have a 98 EV V11 with windshield and ME 880 tires.
  Must explain why the get such good mileage.

I found a slice across the thread of my front ME880 last weekend.  Prying around it with a screwdriver I saw it hit the cord and the tire showed signs of cracking around the threads..... my first thought was damm..... there's plenty of thread left on it to write this one off so soon. I looked up when I put it on...... 6 years and 16,000 miles ago.   :o
The two sets of OEM ME55's(?) lasted me 6,000 & 8,000 miles for comparison.
JU

[Sheepdog]

My CalVin handles quite well...despite running the shocks with only a little preload.  Its intuitive and quick steering, without being twitchy.  I'm shocked that something this big handles so well.

[Wayne Orwig]

lowered the front end by dropping the forks in the triple tree,

Isn't this going to make the steering more twitchy by reducing the trail and exaggerate a handling problem?

[luthier]

lowered the front end by dropping the forks in the triple tree,

Isn't this going to make the steering more twitchy by reducing the trail and exaggerate a handling problem?

Hasn't everyone been suggesting this [whether you call it raising or lowering the forks, it is in fact lowering the front end] and doesn't Guzziology also endorse this, to shorten the wheelbase slightly which quickens up the steering?
And no Wayne, it actually helps the handling and feel but as I said, with poor original springs nothing will make enough difference. Are the new Calvins fitted with good quality progressive springs or not?
Why do you always pick on me Earwig?

[hareynolds]

My CalVin handles quite well...despite running the shocks with only a little preload.  Its intuitive and quick steering, without being twitchy.  I'm shocked that something this big handles so well.

+1
Although it could probably tolerate raising the forks a little bit, if only for slightly easier turn-in at slower speeds.
Above ~30 mph it practically corners by itself.
2-up it's excellent.

Since I am relatively light, I backed off the forks several clicks (both compression and rebound); afterwards, accidentally went over a speed bump way too fast, and just launched, completely off the ground (must have looked hilarious- hey, that funny looking cop just launched off that speed bump!) but landed smooth as a baby's butt. LOVE the Marzocchi.

[Morizzi]

I'm none too happy with my 93Cali3  for handling either.

I've just picked up a 88 Cali III. I've only done 2,200 km on it in the last 3 weeks but I've got to say it has impeccable manners.

I'll even go so far to say that due to its steering geometry, 40mm forks and extra weight that I would be faster on it than my MK III Lemans in bumpy road conditions through moderate corners.

I've had it up to 162kmh (100mph) and not a twitch but I don't ride like that normally. In the curves it is planted and able to roll over bumps and undulations that would unsettle the much lighter Lemans and much, much lighter Monza.

Its a heavy lump of lard though.  ::) Over 60kg heavier then the Lemans and 110kg heavier than the Monza. 110kg!!?  :o I've never dated a pillion that heavy.  :D

[pjb]

My vintage used to weave terrible at anything over 75MPH

Raise the forks about half an inch through the triple tree that will cure the weaving, it did on mine.

Let me know how you get on

Wow, I have to try this.  My Vintage wobbles a bit (only over 85 or 90), but I assumed it was because of the larger than stock Rifle windshield.  As for the other problems listed by the original poster; I had a bike years ago that had wheel alignment problems (caused by improperly marked chain adjusters).  Checking and correcting the alignment with a couple of straightedges fixed the problem for me.  I realize that the shaft drive complicates this, but at least you can check it.

Sheepdog
My Vintage also has the larger Rifle screen, peoples comments bear out my own thoughts:

At speeds above 75mph the wind acts on the riders body, due to the riding postion, lifting the front end. I have a long body and am fairly "well built" there is a lot of my body for the wind to act upon, despite the screen. When you think of it there must be a lot of leverage lifting the front end from the wind and the riding stance.

Raising the forks does help.

I wonder if attaching some sort of weight to the front forks (purely to prove the point) would raise the speed at which the weaving occurs, if it does than we would know we were on the right track.

[frans belgium]

I can not help on the Vintage, but used to have quite bad wobbling problems with my former 2002 EV, to the point of almost being killed at one time.  (Terrible speed wobble on the autobahn).

It scared the sh….out of me, so I wanted it to happen NEVER again !

I had several things done, so I do not know what in fact solved the problem (and it WAS solved)

Tyre change (the Michelin Mac 50 replaced with Battlax 45)
Steering head bearings greased
Front wheel bearings replaced
Swing arm bearing greased
Stock steering dampner replaced by hydraulic one (not that I ever needed it after all the other changes)
Rear Sachs shocks went for Fournales air shocks.

After all that, I had a completely different bike.  I still think tyres and lack of grease on the bearings were the original problem.  Of course, the new shocks improved handling drastically.

But it seems you had all that done, so perhaps something is wrong with your bike (framewise)?

[Dean Rose]

FWIW, I never had a wobble on my 2002 EV, but I was always aware that I could not take my hands off the bars and coast.  I'd see guys from time to time ride by hands off like I used to do as a kid on my bike.  It bothered me that the bike didn't track straight, even though I never had any intention of riding in the "Hey Mom look at Me!!' hands free position.  
 
 It has disappeared and this is what I did.

1)I balanced my throttle bodies and did the TPS.  This reduces the vibes and I feel allowed the bike to track better.  

2)I switched the bars to Dirt bike bars.  This moved my weight forward. It gives, to ME, a much more confident riding postion.  I never liked the EV fat bars.

3) I learned to steer with my feet. Thank you Todd Eagan and Rich Rodriguez. So I agree with rider input as a possible issue.

4) Taller seat - more comfortable better riding postion.  

I did this all at once so I can't say what did it, but my EV is now a Sport bike.  of course with half the power and twice the weight of a current sport bike, but I love it.  

I also previously, upgraded the front and rear suspension, opened the air box, punched the mufflers, added H-pipe, PC3, raised the front fork in the triple tree 1/2"( lowered the front end), advanced brake pedal and changes to the Sport wind shield.  I endorse all these changes, but none changed the why the bike tracked.

I run Metzler 880 marathons front and back.  I have never had an issue with them.

I bring this up because if the bike doesn't track straight that could be a wobble at high speed.

a final thought, If the weight is the issue as suggested above i would suggest you loose the heavy metal hard cases and test ride.  That would shift the over mass of the bike forward with out you having to move.

Your EV sounds like a copy of mine or mine is a copy of yours. It just made a good bike better.

Dean

[motorcycleinfo]

Mine handles great.  I don't usually ride over 70mph, and I'm not rough on it, but it handles with ease an no wobbles at all.  I adjusted the steering damper slightly, and adjusted the compression and rebound slightly on the front, but the rear shock adjustments are exactly as I received the bike brand new.  This entire issue seems very weird to me.  Has the owner ever tried a different Vintage?  I'm still on the original Lasertechs (only at about 2800 miles) and have made no modifications except for addition of a Givi top case.
Also, I don't think anyone discussed rider size or weight, or how loaded down the bike is.  Just wondering if that could be an issue, but probably is not.

[Wayne Orwig]

lowered the front end by dropping the forks in the triple tree,

Isn't this going to make the steering more twitchy by reducing the trail and exaggerate a handling problem?

Hasn't everyone been suggesting this [whether you call it raising or lowering the forks, it is in fact lowering the front end] and doesn't Guzziology also endorse this, to shorten the wheelbase slightly which quickens up the steering?
And no Wayne, it actually helps the handling and feel but as I said, with poor original springs nothing will make enough difference. Are the new Calvins fitted with good quality progressive springs or not?
Why do you always pick on me Earwig?

I wasn't picking on you, I was asking a question.  :P
Thanks for the answer.

[luthier]

lowered the front end by dropping the forks in the triple tree,

Isn't this going to make the steering more twitchy by reducing the trail and exaggerate a handling problem?

Hasn't everyone been suggesting this [whether you call it raising or lowering the forks, it is in fact lowering the front end] and doesn't Guzziology also endorse this, to shorten the wheelbase slightly which quickens up the steering?
And no Wayne, it actually helps the handling and feel but as I said, with poor original springs nothing will make enough difference. Are the new Calvins fitted with good quality progressive springs or not?
Why do you always pick on me Earwig?

I wasn't picking on you, I was asking a question.  :P
Thanks for the answer.

Allright Wayne, sorry for getting stroppy. And yes lowering the front end is generally a good thing. I'll let you know what new springs do for me. The quickening of steering has been very nice and the forks are only dropped about 12mm. I think the setup is quite crucial and I wonder if there ought to be a weight/drop rate scale worked out.
I know Greg Field has a weight versus fork deflection formula pretty well worked out. Have you got that handy there Greg? You know the one with the percentage of deflection versus the unweighted setting etc.???

[hareynolds]

I'm none too happy with my 93Cali3  for handling either.

<snip>
Its a heavy lump of lard though.  ::) Over 60kg heavier then the Lemans and 110kg heavier than the Monza. 110kg!!?  :o I've never dated a pillion that heavy.  :D

LOL Excellent standard for The Pillion (60 kg). I must weigh mine to see if she makes the cut