My California Vintage handles like a dog.

[Lou Snuts]

I've had my Vintage for over a year and 7000 miles but can't get it to handle like my old '96 Cali' did.

The Vintage weaves in a straight line above 75mph, and bucks and weaves through bends if pushed even a little. I've checked all the usual stuff like wheelbearings, headstock bearings, wheel balance and alignment, I've changed the tyres, adjusted pressures, fitted 'Koni's', adjusted front and rear suspension, changed the fork oil and double checked it's quantity. I've stripped screen, panniers and footsheids off - and still it weaves!!!

The official Guzzi web site under 'specifications' states that wheelbase is 1560mm - mine is 1580mm. fork 'rake' should be 29 degrees, mine is correct -  but the 'trail' is listed as 116mm !?, this must be a mistake as mine is 165mms (the Belagio is listed as 28degree - 165 combination, which is much more realistic).

Any one had similar problems with a California?
Any suggestions for a fix?
Anybody be kind enough to check their wheelbase and 'trail' and post the result.

It's spoiling an otherwise lovely bike.
Much obliged.

Lou' UK.

[HDGoose]

You are on the wrong side of the road? :)

[twhitaker]

Changed your tyres to what? I made the mistake of changing the tyres on my '96 to radials. ::) Never again.

Have you looked at the swingarm bearings?

[FGO]

Not to start a tire thread, but something is wrong if you removed the shield and it still handles poorly.  As for radials, at least with respect the now discontinued Dunlop 205's in our sizes, they were the best tire you could put on a cali from a southern california perspective, I've run many sets as have most of the tonti owners in socal, including many, many track days.  your bike should handle perfect. have you checked the centering of the rear and front wheel, several methods are mentioned on guzzitech.com.   Your vintage should have near sportbike handling, so something is surely amiss

[Wayne Orwig]

The Vintage weaves in a straight line above 75mph, and bucks and weaves through bends if pushed even a little.

Sounds exactly like what my EV does if I put radials on it.

What tires?

If you have a radial on the rear, air it up to about 55PSI and see if that helps. If so, look for a stiffer tire.

[Lou Snuts]

Ta for the prompt responses.

Yeh checked the swingarm bearings and wheel alignment, both okay.

It weaved on the original Metzler Lasertech's and on the replacement Bridgestone BT45's - both of which are rated highly by other Cali' owners. Bridgestone recomend 38psi front and 40 rear - but I've experimented with pressures too, to no avail.

Yeh Goose, right side of the road, left, right!

Lou.

[NC Steve]

It's a long shot, but bent frame, or forks?
Has the bike even been dropped? Did you buy it new? Is it still under warranty?  :-\

[Wayne Orwig]

Have you tried to tighten the steering head bearings a little, even though they appear fine?

I assume the spokes are all fine.

You may want to pull the caps and give the swingarm bearings a little touch tighter.

Pretty odd .

[lti_57]

having had a 1999 bassa with BT45's on it and  Mikes XS 650 $75.00  shocks and a 2001 cali EV with Metzler Lasertech's works performance shocks. The Bassa would out handle the EV even 2 up. I have since put Michliens on the EV and this past weekend found the head set to be loose, I have not had it out on the road yet .
My past experience is my 2001 EV handles like crap it does not want to go thru a turn. does not realy wobble just requires more body then the Bassa. 
Hopefully this weekend i can up date this with a positive report on my 2001 EV

[Matt F]

The Vintage weaves in a straight line above 75mph, and bucks and weaves through bends if pushed even a little.

Sounds exactly like what my EV does if I put radials on it.

What tires?

If you have a radial on the rear, air it up to about 55PSI and see if that helps. If so, look for a stiffer tire.

+1.  Rear radial will do this.  Ask me how I know.

[pjb]

My vintage used to weave terrible at anything over 75MPH

Raise the forks about half an inch through the tripple tree that will cure the weaving, it did on mine.

Let me know how you get on

[Lou Snuts]

It's a long shot, but bent frame, or forks?
Has the bike even been dropped? Did you buy it new? Is it still under warranty?  :-\

The bike was three months old with just 900 miles on the clock when I bought it - looked spotless, and with the time Guzzi spares take to get I doubt if it has ever had a repair. The story was that the original owner was too small for it, he couldn't reach the side stand! The warranty is now out.

Thanks
Lou

[Lou Snuts]

having had a 1999 bassa with BT45's on it and  Mikes XS 650 $75.00  shocks and a 2001 cali EV with Metzler Lasertech's works performance shocks. The Bassa would out handle the EV even 2 up. I have since put Michliens on the EV and this past weekend found the head set to be loose, I have not had it out on the road yet .
My past experience is my 2001 EV handles like crap it does not want to go thru a turn. does not realy wobble just requires more body then the Bassa. 
Hopefully this weekend i can up date this with a positive report on my 2001 EV

My old '96 California was a great handling bike, perhaps I'm expecting too much of the Vintage - though it's bordering on 'dangerous' if you push it - shouldn't be that bad.

The swing arm looks quite weak compared to the old bike which had 'beefy' round section arms instead of the narrowed flat section of the newer type (non shaft side) - modified to accomodate a wider tyre I believe. Does any one know if they are they interchangable?

Thanks
Lou.

[Dilliw]

Since you are out of warranty, the cheapest first step is to target the tires.  Swap the rear out for an 880 in 160/70 and see if that helps.   My bike came used with the BT-45 on the back and it was snake bit in the corners and wouldn't hold a line.   The Marathon cured it completely.  If that settles it down, the next move is to go to the 110/80 on the front (BT45 has that size).  

Also, about 5 clicks down on the left fork adjuster (I think it's the "c") makes a difference on the higher speed "swoopers".  

Seems like it would have to be a tire or wheel problem if its that bad.  I've got the wider rear wheel on my 03 and I've "tried" to keep up with Wayne on his 04.  It's not the swingarm  ;D

[Wayne Orwig]

My vintage used to weave terrible at anything over 75MPH

Raise the forks about half an inch through the tripple tree that will cure the weaving, it did on mine.

Let me know how you get on

Just to clearify. You mean for the tubes to go down 1/2". Correct?

[Tom]

Throwing this out there.....tires.  Take a look at them especially the bead.  See if they match up all the way around the rim.  Also rub you hand over the sidewalls to feel for any imperfections...bum ps etc.  For the heck of it check your spokes to see if they need tightening.  See you can eyeball the rims after all of that to check the truing of the rims and spokes.

[Atavar]

I would be interested to see if the bike handled better if you tested it *before* happy hour...   :-X

[Lou Snuts]

Thanks again guys for the input;

I've tried just about all combinations of fork settings - including draining and refilling to check for correct oil and quantity.
The spokes, rims and tyre bead all seem fine too, nice and true with the rim - the rear is begining to flatten off in the centre as they always do, but there is no other damage, wear or whip in them. No tyre sealant in the tubes either.

I don't think 'Marathons' are available in the UK. - I read about them here before fitting the BT45's but my tyre guy couldn't get 'em. I'll look into it again.

Thanks once more for the help.

It's 'happy hour' now Atavar and I'm off to bed - it's midnight here.

Cheerzzzzzzzzzzz... .....
Lou.

[JJ]

QUOTE:  "...My California Vintage handles like a dog"

What is up with that?!? :o  I thought these CalVin's were supposed to be "rock solid" in the twisties! ??? ???
That would drive me nuts! ::) - and this should not happen on these models - as I understand it..... :-\

In fact, my '07 Road King exhibited the same, dreaded, "rubbery-cow", flexi-frame issues (now corrected on all '09 models) in the turns when going in too fast!

If not a tire issue, I like the guys suggestion about the triple-clamp.  Good luck with that!

After some research and installation of a "Pro-Glide-Stabilizer", that took care of the problem (Big Time) on my  RK and I believe it was leafman here (?) who turned me onto this fix, so THANK YOU for this leafman! 

After test riding an '09, I was seriously thinking about selling / trading mine in, but now, problem solved! :)

[Mark West]

Lots of possibilities mentioned. Might be a good idea to find a local Guzzi guy to take it for a spin. Someone with a lot of experience with newer Tonti bikes. If you don't trust the local dealers, perhaps get in touch with the UK guzzi owners group and see if you can find someone nearby.

It definitely sounds like there is a flaw in your particular bike that needs attention. Good luck. Hope it works out well for you in the end.

[hareynolds]

Assuming it isn't tires or headstock bearings (already checked, i believe), then this sounds to me like "vortex induced vibration" or VIV, the engineering term for a (generally) transverse sinusoidal vibration caused by vortex shedding off of a bluff body in a fluid stream.

That is, I agree with Eldo John "Not to start a tire thread, but something is wrong if you removed the shield and it still handles poorly."  As a diagnostic tool, try removing the windscreen and see if you get the same symptom. If it wobbles without the screen on, it's likely not the screen (duh)  OR the dampener.

Since this has made me curious, if I think about it tomorrow, I'll guesstimate the Reynolds Number (Re, no relation) for the windscreen at 75-85 and see if it doesn't fall into the vortex shedding region (like high 10^5 or low 10^6).  Patenthetically, this is why those "laminar lips" on the top of windscreens can be helpful; they tend to move the boundary layer separation point (like a helical strake on a smoke stack does) which suppresses VIV.

We see this in offshore drilling with riser pipes (seabed to vessel) in a 1-4 knot current. It happens at much lower fluid velocities with risers as we're dealing with denser fluid (seawater), but of course at about the same Re number (which is the ROLE of the nasty dimendsionless constant, is't it?)

Now my 09 CalVin had a minor wobble at about the same speed, which I attributed to the bluff-body windscreen. I adjusted the screen back about half to one degree, and then went to adjust the steering dampener, only to find that my particular bike has an non-adjustable gas dampener; BUT I did discover that the frame-mounting widget for the dampener was loose.  Loctited it, problem disappeared. The slightly more-canted windscreen does spill more air over the top lip, but that's nice for Houston summertime. Might change the angle back for winter, then will see if the dampener alone was the fix.

See Danilo's review of the CalVin at http://danilogurovich.wordpress.com/2008/10/23/moto-guzzi-california-vintage-commuting-and-first-impressions/
about steering dampener adjustment:

"The Cal’s narrower than current vogue tires allow for the bike to turn in beautifully.  I had to adjust the steering shock for high speed turns, as it tends to have an uncomfortable wobbling frequency around an indicated 80-90 in the big sweepers without it.  Once dialed in it all disappears. The adjustments of the suspension are also welcome, giving me a very comfortable ride with dynamic handling capabilities."  If your dampener is "loose" (either underadjusted or actually physically loose like mine was) you may get earlier onset, at say 75 mph.

A Hobbs mentioned, Guzziology does recommend considering raising the forks in the triple tree by 1/2" to 1". This apparently makes for slightly easier turn-in and sprightlier handling. See page 20-38, last edition.

Not sure why that would help a 75 mph wobble, however; I'd sooner expect it's the coincident change in the windscreen angle which alters the "vortex shedding" off the screen. Perhaps somebody can explain why the raised fork genometry wold help the wobble (the higher rake geometry has a higher dampening coefficient, maybe? I've got no clue so now I'm making stuff up..

Guzziology says "The bikes that should really benefit [from raising the forks]are all the big twins with 18 inch front wheels as the combination of wheel diameter and severe fork rake [~29 degrees on CalVin] makes for fairly slow handling." 

[Lou Snuts]

Mornig All, thanks for your input over night.

The bike misbehaves even without screen, panniers and foot sheilds.

I don't use the standard screen any more, it caused too much buffeting for my liking even with a laminar lip fitted (i used a road king lip, slightly too wide but didn't help). I modified the screen clamps to rake it back, tried turning the clamps upside down to raise the screen - non of it helped for me, still too much buffeting. Had no effect on the handling either. I run no screen or a small flyscreen depending on the season.

I have, in the past, tried sliding the forks through the clamps, you get about half an inch before they touch the handlebars - made very little difference to the ride. To my mind this shortens the wheelbase, therefore making it LESS stable in a staight line.

I'll double double check the head bearings, and may just nip them up to see if it helps - I can always slacken them again if it doesn't.

The standard steering damper is a very cheap item, it is as tight as I can get it - maybe I need to replace it with a better one.

I belong to the Moto Guzzi Club GB, but can reach far more Guzzi owners on this forum (greater input). Good Guzzi dealers are few in the UK and non are local to me, many are just selling the bikes and know very little about them. My mate just bought a new Stelvio locally, it came with the wrong side stand (too short, which they missed in pre delivery inspection) the springs fall off when you flick it down, headlamps dipping right instead of left (they wanted to send for new ones when it only needed adjusting) - he asked how to adjust the rear suspension and they couldn't tell him! They couldn't remove the oil filter at the first service because they didn't have the appropriate tool. These are Guzzi trained!? mechanics!! I've got no confidence in them - I have an engineering background and thirty five years 'in the saddle experience' - I'd rather sort it myself.

Thanks again

Lou

[guzzijack]

I don't think 'Marathons' are available in the UK. - I read about them here before fitting the BT45's but my tyre guy couldn't get 'em. I'll look into it again.

Marathons not available in the UK? That tyre guy can't have tried very hard. I've got a Marathon rear and a Lasertech front on my '97 EV and they are shaping up to be a very good combination for handling v mileage. Did you look on the Metzler UK website?

http://www.metzelermoto.co.uk/web/catalog/moto/moto_catalogo_schedaDescription.page?uri=/metzeler/en_GB/browser/xml/catalog/moto/Custom_ME_880_Marathon.xml&vehicleType=MOTO&menu_item=/products/catalog/custom



GJ

[Lou Snuts]

 Thanks 'GJ',

Yes I looked at so may web sites at the time that I got info' overload!

I remember a tyre that was recommended by the guys on this forum (as were BT45's) but had just become obsolete here in the UK - my tyre guy did try to get one but couldn't (I'm probably mistaken about the name).

I'll give the marathon a go next tyre change.

Ta.
Lou.

[Dilliw]

I don't think 'Marathons' are available in the UK. - I read about them here before fitting the BT45's but my tyre guy couldn't get 'em. I'll look into it again.

Marathons not available in the UK? That tyre guy can't have tried very hard. I've got a Marathon rear and a Lasertech front on my '97 EV and they are shaping up to be a very good combination for handling v mileage. Did you look on the Metzler UK website?

http://www.metzelermoto.co.uk/web/catalog/moto/moto_catalogo_schedaDescription.page?uri=/metzeler/en_GB/browser/xml/catalog/moto/Custom_ME_880_Marathon.xml&vehicleType=MOTO&menu_item=/products/catalog/custom



GJ

Are you using the 110/80 in the Lasertech?  I would assume going to the lower profile tire has some of the handling properties as adjusting the forks 1/2" maybe?  If so then that adjustment won't be a cure for the problems here but will make the bike turn in better. 

Center out the BT-45 rear was horrible on my bike (wobbled, wouldn't stay on line) but the lower profile front made it turn in better than my 110/90 Marathon (they don't come in the 110/80).  I didn't think about adjusting the tubes....

[mtiberio]

I'd check that the bike wasn't originally assembled with the axle spacers screwed up or missing, and even though you have dutifully reassembled the bike after every tire change, it is still screwed up. I'm not talking about front to rear wheel alignment, my race bike had 10mm (.4") offset to get the 140 rear to fit in a lemans I swingarm, and it handled fine. I'm talking the wheel actually being able to move side to side. I'd also check the swingarm bearing adjuster set screws, once again not for alignment, but looseness.

[Morizzi]

Another thought.  8)

Being a Tonti frame the 7 bolts that hold the battery plate to the frame and gearbox need to be tight otherwise the frame isn't rigid.

Check all other frame bolts too.

Hope its something as simple as this.

Cheers.

[Murray]

Have you noticed its worse with a pillion or not? Simple road check when it gets a tendance to weave move you wieght forward, sit on the tank if you have too. If the bike "settles" it means the front tyre doesn't have enough wieght on it. Try cranking up the rear preload (i'm assuming it adjustable) to at least what they recommend for two people. Then you can try pulling the forks through the tripple tree's. 5mm is a big adjustment here so just a bit at a time. The other suggestion is make sure all the sapcers for the fron wheel are assembled in thier correct order if the forks are splayed they might not be compressing properly.

[Wayne Orwig]

The swing arm looks quite weak compared to the old bike which had 'beefy' round section arms instead of the narrowed flat section of the newer type (non shaft side) - modified to accomodate a wider tyre I believe. Does any one know if they are they interchangable?

Just an FYI.
This is the same flat box section as on my 04 EV. It is solid towing a huge camper and overloaded bike. I think the design is fine.

I have my steering damper backed all the way off. Never liked having it on.

Did you new rear shocks raise the rear any? What length are they?

[pjb]

My vintage used to weave terrible at anything over 75MPH

Raise the forks about half an inch through the tripple tree that will cure the weaving, it did on mine.

Let me know how you get on

Just to clearify. You mean for the tubes to go down 1/2". Correct?

The fork legs protrude through the top of the triple tree by half an inch