Electronic Ignition replacement for 1978 T3 850 ??

[Madness MC]

Hello !!  I'm a new member (as of 7 PM E.S.T.), having joined on Jan. 15th, 2013.  I own a motorcycle repair shop in Elgin, SC and have recently had several (potential) and existing customers interested in having their various year & model MGs worked on at my shop.

I'm currently in the process of "restoring" a 1978 T3 850 for one of my customers and would like as much information as possible in regards to eliminating the dual-point ignition system in favor of a more reliable electronic ignition system.  I am also asking this information so that I may eventually perform a similar upgrade to my personal (circa 1970) G7.

If anyone has any information pro or con, regarding this possible enhancement, I'd like to get all of the information possible.  I have previously checked with 123Ignition USA and they have informed me that there is no direct replacement available through their sources.

So if anyone out there has additional info, please share what you have been able to find out regarding a solution to my quest.

Thanks.

Madness MC

[Chuck in Indiana]

Welcome to WG. Search is your friend, here. Dyna will fix you up.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

For the T3, as Chuck says, a Dyna is the most popular unit:
http://www.mgcycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=1592

Use these coils with it:
http://www.mgcycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=2330

"Circa 1970 G7" - do you mean a V750 Ambassador or a later V1000 G5? The G5 would use the same Dyna and coils. An Ambassador doesn't need an electronic ignition IMO - the single point distributor is dead simple to set and maintain and very durable. If you just gotta' have an electronic ignition though, Harper's sells a Pertronix-made unit: http://www.harpermoto.com/harpers-high-output-electronic-ignition.html . Less reliable than points in my experience. YMMV.

[Madness MC]

Thanks for the "Welcome" and the information.  Charlie, I believe that you have put me on the correct track for where I want to be.

Thankf for all of your assistance.

[Madness MC]

If anyone else is interested, ALL Drag Specialties / Parts Unlimited dealers can get the Dyna III Hi-Performance Electronic Ignition for you.  The part number is D37-1 and the SRP is $224.95.

This unit fits all 1974 - 1987 750cc and larger with dual point distributors.

The unit that I installed in my customer's Guzzi works great. Hope this helps other out.

[Vasco DG]

Make sure the customer understands the importance of keeping a good battery up to the Dyna. They are reliable but if the battery voltage is allowed to drop they can get spiked when the motor starts. Usually its the left hand side circuit that goes from memory?

Personally I nowadays prefer points. The twin point system is very easy and stone axe reliable as long as the points heel is greased from time to time.

OOMV

Pete

[jacksonracingcomau]

Make sure the customer understands the importance of keeping a good battery up to the Dyna. They are reliable but if the battery voltage is allowed to drop they can get spiked when the motor starts. Usually its the left hand side circuit that goes from memory?

Personally I nowadays prefer points. The twin point system is very easy and stone axe reliable as long as the points heel is greased from time to time.

OOMV

Pete

That's interesting Pete, what happens when they spike ?
I've got an LM 3 here with Dyna has intermittent 1 cylinder drop out for owner, will not do it for me, not certain if I've fixed it or problem waiting for owner.
He is a FIFO rock doctor--bike gets left for months, flat battery certainly an issue with him. Possible it only does it with low battery, heals when charged / replaced ?

Twin points the most reliable ignition for sure, you can set them up perfectly and they last indefinitely, what's not to like ?
They even provided a felt wick to oil, 2 squirts from an oil can once a year, hardly a major chore.

[Vasco DG]

That's interesting Pete, what happens when they spike ?
I've got an LM 3 here with Dyna has intermittent 1 cylinder drop out for owner, will not do it for me, not certain if I've fixed it or problem waiting for owner.
He is a FIFO rock doctor--bike gets left for months, flat battery certainly an issue with him. Possible it only does it with low battery, heals when charged / replaced ?

Twin points the most reliable ignition for sure, you can set them up perfectly and they last indefinitely, what's not to like ?
They even provided a felt wick to oil, 2 squirts from an oil can once a year, hardly a major chore.

Some times you'll get an intermittent drop out for a while but it usually becomes terminal after a short period of time. Leaving the ignition on for any length of time will cook the coils too, even if you use 5 ohm ones. The dyna system essentially energises them permanently apart from the very short interval they are turned off to collapse the field so even when the engine is running they get much hotter than a points triggered system.

Pete

[mtiberio]

adding jumper cables to a bike with the ignition on can spike it as well. after my dyna failed while I was on vacation, I am a points man again. this is after running dyna for 30 years and staunchly defending them against all negative press... if you run them, carry a set of points.

[rjamesohio]

I've installed Dyna systems on my personal bikes as well as customer bikes over the years. On Tonti-frame Guzzis, the Dyna system works famously and I found it to be a great upgrade over the dual point setups.

There will be people who will argue for points on EVERYTHING; note I've distinguished the Tonti frame Guzzis here. Points are fine on an Eldo where you can get to them without taking the gas tank off, AND they are single points. On Tonti-era bikes, Guzzi buried the points down in the V Valley, plus the dual point setup ofter required tedious filing of the points plates to get the timing just right on both sides.

Guzziology has an excellent writeup on this topic if you want another opinion, but I've been down this road enough to feel pretty confident this is the way to go.

[canuck750]

Does the 850 T3 electronic setup work for the 73' V7 Sport 750 motor / dustributor as well?

Thanks
Jim

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Does the 850 T3 electronic setup work for the 73' V7 Sport 750 motor / dustributor as well?

Thanks
Jim

Yes, all Tontis with dual-point timers. I have a used one that I'm selling for a customer.
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?action=classifieds;sa=view;id=1305

[canuck750]

Thanks Charlie!

Jim

[T in NC]

I have been thinking about trying one of these for year, but never pulled the trigger. What is the advantage of this or the Dyna over the other?
http://www.jefferies-au.org/MyECU/MyIgn.html

[jacksonracingcomau]

I've installed Dyna systems on my personal bikes as well as customer bikes over the years. On Tonti-frame Guzzis, the Dyna system works famously and I found it to be a great upgrade over the dual point setups.

There will be people who will argue for points on EVERYTHING; note I've distinguished the Tonti frame Guzzis here. Points are fine on an Eldo where you can get to them without taking the gas tank off, AND they are single points. On Tonti-era bikes, Guzzi buried the points down in the V Valley, plus the dual point setup ofter required tedious filing of the points plates to get the timing just right on both sides.

Guzziology has an excellent writeup on this topic if you want another opinion, but I've been down this road enough to feel pretty confident this is the way to go.

Actually the twin cb housing is in exactly the same position as the distributor was, it's the chassis that's different.
the advantage of twin points is in getting both sides perfect, requires a little skill but only like being able to time two singles. I just alter gaps, no filing.
3 dizzy V12 Ferraris are a little trickier but is not a daily task, once all mechanics could set ignition timing, lost art perhaps ?

To each his own, but one day when all the black boxes have gone west from "spiking" or whatever, Tonti contact breaker users will smile politely and raise one licked finger

adding jumper cables to a bike with the ignition on can spike it as well. after my dyna failed while I was on vacation, I am a points man again. this is after running dyna for 30 years and staunchly defending them against all negative press... if you run them, carry a set of points.

welcome back mtliberio,  you're not the only one, I've refitted a few now, guess the dyna on mk3 LM on my bench is going in the bin too, hard to trust it

[Vasco DG]

Actually the twin cb housing is in exactly the same position as the distributor was, it's the chassis that's different.
the advantage of twin points is in getting both sides perfect, requires a little skill but only like being able to time two singles. I just alter gaps, no filing.

Single point distributor, (And cam gear obviously.) are different between the two points systems but I'm wholly in agreement about the points plate filing. I've never found it necessary, just set it up by gap. As long as there is sufficient dwell for the coil to make a fat enough spark to light the fire all the way to red-line who gives a shit if the gaps are the same? Nice thing is that as the points heel wears, and they do eventually, all you do is open them up again until the timing is correct and you can go again.

In my experience as long as you throw a new pair of condensors at the system every now and again the points faces will last pretty much forever. Eventually the heels wear down but it takes a very long time if they are lubed.

Pete

[Aaron D.]

Is it possible to put the "real" distributor on a Tonti engine, or is the camshaft different?

On Dyna coil temps-I can rest my hand on the coils of my bike with Dyna and standard Tonti coils. I was surprised. Not all that hot at all.

[jacksonracingcomau]

Single point distributor, (And cam gear obviously.) are different between the two points systems but I'm wholly in agreement about the points plate filing. I've never found it necessary, just set it up by gap. As long as there is sufficient dwell for the coil to make a fat enough spark to light the fire all the way to red-line who gives a shit if the gaps are the same? Nice thing is that as the points heel wears, and they do eventually, all you do is open them up again until the timing is correct and you can go again.

In my experience as long as you throw a new pair of condensors at the system every now and again the points faces will last pretty much forever. Eventually the heels wear down but it takes a very long time if they are lubed.

Pete

couldn't swear to it but think my condensors are the ones that came on the bike in 78, I did have one come loose once soon after, cleaned and loctited on, problem gone.
Won't change them if they don't fail

ditto heel, if my gap changes by .001", I abuse myself for being slack with maintenance. Can't remember last time that happened and I only lube wick around 10K miles at same time as fuel filter clean, tank comes off for this anyway. Only time it ever does.

But we did have some Facet points once that were crap, they broke in half on some customer bikes, I should never have changed from the orig Marelli ones.
I had to refit them as warranty anyway
Anyone buying points ONLY use OE Marelli ones (written on them)

[Vasco DG]

You can fit a single point dizzy to a Tonti or a twin point to a loop by swapping the shaft gear. Any cam with a Tacho drive won't fit in a loop I don't think? Charlie will correct me I'm sure if I'm wrong?

Pete

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

You can fit a single point dizzy to a Tonti or a twin point to a loop by swapping the shaft gear. Any cam with a Tacho drive won't fit in a loop I don't think? Charlie will correct me I'm sure if I'm wrong?

Pete

You're correct. You can use a Loop dizzy in a Tonti engine with a swap o' the gear and vice versa. Tonti gear on a Loop dizzy prevents you from pulling just the dizzy out for work - the dizzy and it's "base" both have to come out as a unit since the Tonti gear is larger diameter. 

Cams with a tach drive will need to have the drive bit removed.   

[Rainman]

One thing electronic ignition can do that points can't is idle stabilization.
Notice the graphs shape near idle for the Boyer & TriSpark.

 
http://www.accessnorton.com/commando-timing-advance-curves-compiled-reva-t6488.html

I'm pretty sure Guzzi used it with the 15m and probably other ECMs before the stepper motors to control the idle.
To bad it doesn't appear dyna or the other electronic units available for Guzzi's use idle stabilization. 
It's a simple idea, advance the timing below the target idle speed & retard it above.
Anyone that has timed a distributor by ear knows as you slowly advance the timing the idle speed increases to a point. And vice versa.

[jacksonracingcomau]

One thing electronic ignition can do that points can't is idle stabilization.

To bad it doesn't appear dyna or the other electronic units available for Guzzi's use idle stabilization. 

maybe why I like points and carbs, setting the idle is done with minor adjustments, stabil is the word, sub 900 rpm, yes, I know yanks don't like low idle, I do.

Only thing that'd make my Guzzi idle unstable is extreme heat and I'd rather kill the engine than fix that.
Without water cooling and a fan I don't think it can be done
Pete's story of 8V with EFI and IE that melted itself idling the proof of that. No air flow on air cooled engine !
Idle stabilized itself to destruction, do you consider that a good thing ? Wasn't idiot proof.

[mtiberio]

while you can run a single point dizzy in a "tonti" motor, I wonder if the single point dizzy (cap actually) wouldn't hit the tank if fitted in a tonti frame...

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

while you can run a single point dizzy in a "tonti" motor, I wonder if the single point dizzy (cap actually) wouldn't hit the tank if fitted in a tonti frame...

Yep. Maybe the frame too?

http://www.antietamclassiccycle.com/v7_sport_restoration/V7_Sport_01042011_002.JPG

[Paul in NZ]

I like the dyna on my mk2 because I still have the side fairings and its damn near impossible to do anything with them in place - I like fit and forget...

'says paul who is now worried that his timing is off (it isnt) and has an odd desire to check it!"

[C5Performance]

Joe, I called you tonight & left a message at your shop. We have a new Moto Guzzi ignition kit that uses dual light beams to track crank/cam position and trigger coil saturation and spark trigger. It's the only full rpm multi spark ignition that i know of in the world. You might be done with your customers restoration but wanted to see if we could help offer a new option besides the mediocre hall effect ignitions we've all been stuck with until now.

We have Ace Mallott testing one right now to help us fine tune ignition curves if necessary. The mounting adapters are in stock and we will be shipping the first ones very soon!
www.c5ignitions.com if you want to read more about the technology. We do not have them for sale on our website yet but contact us if you have further technical questions.

Paul

[Matt Story]

I was doing some searching a year or so ago. 

I found this company http://www.powerarc.com/ids/development.htm  They don't list a Guzzi ignition kit on their site currently.  If I remember correctly, the Guzzi dual point replacement had been developed and some units had been installed in customer bikes.  I inquired by email.  To my surprise I got a phone call from someone there who was very helpful & knowledgeable about the product line. It may have been the owner or lead engineer.   I was impressed overall.  No experience with the product yet..

There are these guys who offer an alternative for Guzzi point igniions  http://www.cajinnovations.com/MyECU/index.htm  Don't know much about them.

This German Company http://www.silent-hektik.com/MG_Bosch.htm looks to have some high quality offering, although they all seem to be drive by pulse wheels mounted to the crankshaft.  I don't speak German, so it's hard for me to tell much

No affiliation with any of these co,panies.  Just sharing what I found.

Matt

[JoeW]

Joe, I called you tonight & left a message at your shop. We have a new Moto Guzzi ignition kit that uses dual light beams to track crank/cam position and trigger coil saturation and spark trigger. It's the only full rpm multi spark ignition that i know of in the world. You might be done with your customers restoration but wanted to see if we could help offer a new option besides the mediocre hall effect ignitions we've all been stuck with until now.

We have Ace Mallott testing one right now to help us fine tune ignition curves if necessary. The mounting adapters are in stock and we will be shipping the first ones very soon!
www.c5ignitions.com if you want to read more about the technology. We do not have them for sale on our website yet but contact us if you have further technical questions.

Paul

Paul, I just visited your web site, very interesting stuff. I'm doing a few early 70s restorations and customs. Always looking for new goodies. I bookmarked your page and will be contacting you soon. Does the Guzzi kit include coils?
Joe (different Joe than madness MC)

[Matt Story]

Turns out I posted about the PowerArc ignitions the day I talked to them.  Her are some photos of an installed unit and a video of one on a bike running.

https://picasaweb.google.com/111067627485055009519/MotoGuzziPowerArc#

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-lkhk0cDrs

[sparrowhawwk]

I was doing some searching a year or so ago.  

I found this company http://www.powerarc.com/ids/development.htm  They don't list a Guzzi ignition kit on their site currently.  If I remember correctly, the Guzzi dual point replacement had been developed and some units had been installed in customer bikes.  I inquired by email.  To my surprise I got a phone call from someone there who was very helpful & knowledgeable about the product line. It may have been the owner or lead engineer.   I was impressed overall.  No experience with the product yet..

There are these guys who offer an alternative for Guzzi point igniions  http://www.cajinnovations.com/MyECU/index.htm  Don't know much about them.

This German Company http://www.silent-hektik.com/MG_Bosch.htm looks to have some high quality offering, although they all seem to be drive by pulse wheels mounted to the crankshaft.  I don't speak German, so it's hard for me to tell much

No affiliation with any of these co,panies.  Just sharing what I found.

Matt

  I am working with Paul at Power Arc to refine the ignition curves for my heavily loaded 76 Convert.  Over the years I have used Dyna ignitions in my Guzzi's and older Goldwings.  They were a great upgrade at the time.  I put a lot of miles on my bikes.  I think the longest a Dyna lasted was a little over two years.  I don't remember where I was the last time one failed in my Guzzi but the one in my 78 Goldwing failed starting up the north side of the Grapevine in Southern California.  At that time I decided I wasn't in to carrying the old points and tools with me to change on the side of the road the next time one failed so I went back to points.

   Recently I was contacted by a friend that is an old GL guru and told about the C5 ignitions.  He was helping to develop a version for the GL's which they have completed with amazing success.  To make a long story short I now have one in my Convert.

   The first time I started the bike after installation I was suprised how fast it started and seemed content to idle without the chokes on.  Also, as it warmed up I had to turn the idle down some.  Of course playing with a new product I had to see how far I could turn the idle down.  I have not seen the charge light with the bike running since I installed the Duralast alternator.  Now I was able to slow the idle until the light came on and my sidecar equipped Convert was not trying to run away.  Of course this was too low to leave like that but it showed how much better the new ignition was working.  The thing here is a more complete burn of the fuel.  This system fires three times instead of only once at all RPM.

   Obviously I am very happy with this ignition and could turn this into a long post talking about it.  I have received amazing support from Paul at C5 refining the ignition curves.  It comes with four different curves installed and can be switched from one to the other easily.  While these ignitions are new to the Guzzi scene the bonus is that they are not new to motorcycles.  Turns out one well know Norton shop here has been using them for a long time.  They can supply models for Harley back to the thirties.  Where c5 comes in is the development of versions for other bikes, cars, snowmobiles and on and on.

   I have over 100,000 miles on my Convert pulling a sidecar.  They work quite well in the snow.LOL    Recently I have been considering putting a five speed in it to improve performance some.  Yesterday I was doing a test ride (any excuse for a ride) and found myself grinning.  For the first time in years the bike was performing closer to how I always thought it should.  I bought this one from BJ a long time ago and his work with the transmission has kept it going without problems other than over time it seemed to be down on power.  Now it's back with more to come.  Paul is making up a new set of ignition curves  (yes it's programmable )  just to suit my use of the bike hauling a heavy sidecar.   Now, back to getting the valves adjusted. >:(

  More info at c5performance.info