The New Indian Chief Thunder Stroke 111 merged threadfest

[bad Chad]

Low, the older RKs I've ridden were much slower but we're talking EVOs and TC88s, pretty different from the current iterations.

Chad, anyone with the slightest knowledge of motorcycles would know a range of 3 seconds in 1/4 mile times of a single model must implicitly include non stock examples. My point was just about not assuming too much.  :BEER:

No, I'm not letting you get away that easy.   It makes no sense at all to compare a motorcycle that has had no chance to be played with, to a substantially modified RK!   We all know how you love a good pissing match brother.  But you would be better off just saying, "Yea, your right, the 11 sec didn't belong in the narrative".

[oldbike54]

 :pop
Dusty

[bad Chad]

:pop
Dusty

I know, righ?  I had the same thought as I was typing! :D

[bad Chad]

Found a european site comparing the Soft Tail Slim, to the 14 Custom.  Interesting, they liked much about each and vis versa.  However, they did conclude that that the HD 103 could not come close to matching the Guzzi.  Oh, and Guzzi won overall, easily.

http://www.moto-station.com/article17135-harley-davidson-softail-slim-vs-moto-guzzi-california-1400-custom-custom-retro-contre-cruiser-moderne.html

[Kev m]

No, I'm not letting you get away that easy.   It makes no sense at all to compare a motorcycle that has had no chance to be played with, to a substantially modified RK!   We all know how you love a good pissing match brother.  But you would be better off just saying, "Yea, your right, the 11 sec didn't belong in the narrative".

It makes perfect sense, because it reflects reality...i.e. what you might find or can have. My point in mentioning a range was don't assume you're going to walk away on the Cali, it might not be true.

And it might not be true even stock...we'll know more when we get some data on the current production models.

As for your personal statement regarding pissing matches, that was uncalled for and inaccurate. Just because I don't shy away from them doesn't mean I like them, or that this is one.

[Kev m]

Found a european site comparing the Soft Tail Slim, to the 14 Custom.  Interesting, they liked much about each and vis versa.  However, they did conclude that that the HD 103 could not come close to matching the Guzzi.  Oh, and Guzzi won overall, easily.

http://www.moto-station.com/article17135-harley-davidson-softail-slim-vs-moto-guzzi-california-1400-custom-custom-retro-contre-cruiser-moderne.html

You know that's a dramatically different chassis and a different motor to the RK, right?

[bad Chad]

Ok Kev, you can make an argument that you don't like them, but you cannot denny that you get into them more than anyone else on this board.   That's not necessarily   a bad thing, it's just a fact.   I like that you don't dive under the table as soon as someone calls you up.   You do a solid job of defending your positions.

[LowRyter]

Found a european site comparing the Soft Tail Slim, to the 14 Custom.  Interesting, they liked much about each and vis versa.  However, they did conclude that that the HD 103 could not come close to matching the Guzzi.  Oh, and Guzzi won overall, easily.[/size][/size]
http://www.moto-station.com/article17135-harley-davidson-softail-slim-vs-moto-guzzi-california-1400-custom-custom-retro-contre-cruiser-moderne.html

abso- fukin- lootly

let's kill this thread now.               :

 :beat_horse

[gclark8]

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https://www.facebook.com/pages/Bikes-Only-Transport/217230934970742

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Regards,
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Logistics & Supply Chain Manager
Polaris Industries Australia & NZ

[Kev m]

abso- fukin- lootly

let's kill this thread now.               :

 :beat_horse

MIGHT be true, but still facts not on evidence, or do you not recognize the TCB is a different motor, especially from the new high output TC 103?

I still suspect it's not the slam dunk some seem so certain to declare it.

Looks like

103" TCB = 97 ft. lbs.
103" TC HO (new King) = 105 ft. lbs.
110" TC CVO = 117 ft. lbs.

Now the important thing is these are all stock and HD leaves a much higher % of cheap/easy hp on the table (to sell accessories). Harley generally claims that pipes alone can add up to 10% more power, nevermind an intake and tuner.

Now weight is the one thing that will hold the RK back, but those numbers demonstrate it is probably closer than many are assuming.

[LowRyter]

hell Kev- you couldn't even tell us if the Cal would run the Indian.  I strongly suspect that the Cal 14 would absolutely stomp that Indian.

then you started talking about 11 sec RKs.  Just a simple seat-of-the-pants answer for the Indian would've been nice.  Most of us have ridden big Harleys.  been there, done that.

The French mag already confirmed what we ALL know: the Harley won't keep up with the Cal in a straight-line much less the twisties.

[Kev m]

hell Kev- you couldn't even tell us if the Cal would run the Indian.  I strongly suspect that the Cal 14 would absolutely stomp that Indian.

then you started talking about 11 sec RKs.  Just a simple seat-of-the-pants answer for the Indian would've been nice.  Most of us have ridden big Harleys.  been there, done that.

The French mag already confirmed what we ALL know: the Harley won't keep up with the Cal in a straight-line much less the twisties.

How about you post some facts and experience then instead of just giving me bs. You have not ridden the new TC HO right? How about the Indian? Did you at least ride the Cali?

Yes, I can't say with any certainty if the Cali or Indian is faster or the better handler because my test rides didn't involve a drag strip, race track or stop watch.

What I did say, and stand behind, is that they felt close enough the differences probably mean jack dick in the real world.

As for my RK comments I posted a wide range of times I found which reflect what might be possible. If you can't grasp the context and are genuinely confused by it sorry, but I give you more credit than that which means you're just trolling.

Ps and the French mag tested a different chassis, with a different motor, and at a glance I see opinions, but no hard facts. I'm not gonna bet the farm on that (or most) "journalist" reviews thanks.

[LowRyter]

the french mag had the 103 motor.

 :beat_horse

dead parrot thread

[Kev m]

Low, I thought you knew something about Harleys?

A Softail uses a TCB motor with counterbalancer and different cams from a rubbermounted motor, especially the Touring models.

For 2014, Harley just released a new version of the TC103 called the "high output" with higher figures used only in Touring models.

So the French mag tested a different motor, in a different chassis. Not very applicable to this conversation.

More inportantly, did Chad post this (inserted in my quote in his post):

But back to merky facts, MCN puts the 1400 custom at 13.3 sec in 1/4.

And older RK TC96 mcn numbers:

Here are some MCN numbers

TC88 Rk - 13.94
TC96 RK - 13.44

CVO (TC96?) Fat Boy - 12.6

So MCN said they are in the same ballpark, before power was upped in the latest edition.

[youcanrunnaked]

Well, they tested a Softail, which has the 103B engine.  It doesn't rev quite as freely as the non-counterbalanced 103 engine, but considering the Big Twin(TM) barely revs at all, we are talking about an incremental difference.

[Kev m]

Well, they tested a Softail, which has the 103B engine.  It doesn't rev quite as freely as the non-counterbalanced 103 engine, but considering the Big Twin(TM) barely revs at all, we are talking about an incremental difference.

That's possible, but it's still rated for less power and has a different torque curve from the previous 103, never mind the brand new 103.

Maybe just as importantly, did they give any hard numbers or just impressions?

I'm not claiming to have all the data, but at least I'm presenting some here. Look at the MCN times and the factory torque ratings and at least admit this isn't black and white.

[oldbike54]

Goodness , what a fun thread , don't kill it yet , let's see if we can find some real performance figures . Kev M , I do think you enjoy the "debate" , as do I , but the 10% HP increase that HD advertises with a muffler change has always seemed dubious at best . Any dyno figures ?
Dusty

[Kev m]

Goodness , what a fun thread , don't kill it yet , let's see if we can find some real performance figures . Kev M , I do think you enjoy the "debate" , as do I , but the 10% HP increase that HD advertises with a muffler change has always seemed dubious at best . Any dyno figures ?
Dusty

Actually the 10% is easy, but probably takes the intake too more often than not..

But start here:

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/

Some of this is a bit outdated as it's from the original TC96 intro, buy it's a good example of what Harley usually leaves on the table (purposely).

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/hd2007HD_performance.htm

This gives a large range of results on different HD BT TC motors

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/hplist_twin_cam.htm

[oldbike54]

 8) Thanks . As you know , I am not a real basher of the motor company , or any brand . A Harley riding buddy told me HD guys don't care about outrunning other brands , only other Harleys . Some truth to that I do believe .
Dusty

[youcanrunnaked]

I have no doubt the new H-D H.O. 103 makes more torque than the old TC 103, 96, 88, etc., as well as slightly more torque than the nuovo Cali 1400.  Here are the numbers that I have seen:

2013 103ci has 9.7:1 Compression Ratio with 100ft. lbs of torque @3250 rpm
2014 103ci twin cooled has 10.0:1 Compression Ratio with 105.5ft lbs of torque @3750 rpm.
2014 103ci non twin cooled has 9.7:1 Compression Ratio with 104.7ft. lbs of torque @3250 rpm.

(I believe these are "at the crank.")

However, the 1400 out-revs the H.O. 103 by quite a bit.  Since hp is the product of torque and rpm, divided by a constant, the Cali should best the H-D in hp.  Then consider the Cali weighs nearly 100 lbs less than the comparable RK, and the Cali should beat the new RK in most acceleration tests, although the H-D might run even or better just off the line, and possibly in a 60-80 mph roll-on contest.

As the H.O. 103 is already in what could be considered "Stage 2" tune, I doubt there are big gains to be had with aftermarket tuning.  Besides, that would not be comparing apples-to-apples.  If we were to compare a new RK with aftermarket tuning to a Cali 1400 with the full-boat GuzziTech treatment, I think the 1400 would still best the Harley.

[Kev m]

Those are mostly some good points.

But judging from what we've seen on other Guzzi 8V motors I doubt you'd see much or any peak gain on a Cali, whereas I don't accept that Harley hasn't left their usual gains on the table for dealer and parts/ accessories profit. It would go against what they've done for decades now. Besides they are still beholden to spa standards when they leave York.

And if we want apples to apples isn't MCN putting only a tenth of a second between the bagless Caki Custom and an RK with a tc96?

Did MCN not test the Touring Cali?

No matter, those numbers suggest same ballpark.

[Kev m]

More data
 
Cali 1400 according to CW:

Crank HP 96 @ 6500 rpm (that's only 1k more rpm than peak Harley TC HP )

Crank torque 90

Interestingly enough cw put rear wheel figures at 88 HP / 79 ft. Lbs. though the peak torque they listed at about 4500 rpm and not the 2500 rpm the factory published.

It will be interesting to see the rear wheel figures for the new Harley 103 HO.

I wonder if they're in the SE catalog as usual?

[youcanrunnaked]

Kev, I am guessing that the H.O. 103 engine will not see big gains through further tuning, because it is already "tuned."  H-D says the H.O engine has a more free-flowing air intake and a more aggressive cam, so what's left to do?  Add a non-EPA pipe and you have, in effect, a Stage 2 engine, no?  (Look at how little power was gained by adding water cooling.)

Meanwhile, Polaris puts both H-D and M-G in their place.  The new Indian 111 engine is rated at 119 lbs/ft of torque at 3,000 rpm.  Yowza.  It's also a gorgeous piece.  Too bad the new Indian bikes weigh so much, despite the aluminum frame.

[Kev m]

I understand your logic, but history suggests otherwise. And even if it takes a non epa pipe that's still historically going to yield the results. You're not seeing much more stock cause of spa and they are leaving something more for dealers to sell. They still have SE pipes available (legal ones) that they advertized gains with on previous iterations.

Butt we'll see.

 Oh, on the out revving, I think we're forgetting the Cali is no Griso.

Guzzi claims peak HP at 6500 and tque 2500

I'm seeing rev limiter listed at 6200 for Harley and peak torque at a higher than Cali 3250.

[youcanrunnaked]

^^^  Good points.  I am looking forward to seeing some comparison tests in the coming months -- Guzzi vs. Harley vs. Indian -- maybe throw in a Victory, the Triumph Thunderbird, and a Japanese cruiser or two.

Meanwhile, I think what I REALLY want is the tech package in the nuovo California installed across the Big block Moto Guzzi line.  A lot of people seem to want a Griso with ABS, but imagine if all of the 8V bikes had ABS plus ride-by-wire with traction control, electronic cruise control, and switchable engine maps.  Mmmmmm.  As much as I like the nuovo Cali, I think a Stelvio NTX with cc and tri-map would be my choice for next bike.  

Is it unreasonable to think that Piaggio might do this for 2014?  I don't think we have heard anything about the 2014 Moto Guzzi line-up.  (Is the California 1400 considered a 2013 model or a 2014 model?)

[LowRyter]

Low, I thought you knew something about Harleys?

A Softail uses a TCB motor with counterbalancer and different cams from a rubbermounted motor, especially the Touring models.

For 2014, Harley just released a new version of the TC103 called the "high output" with higher figures used only in Touring models.

So the French mag tested a different motor, in a different chassis. Not very applicable to this conversation.

More inportantly, did Chad post this (inserted in my quote in his post):

And older RK TC96 mcn numbers:

So MCN said they are in the same ballpark, before power was upped in the latest edition.

 :beat_horse

[Kev m]

It's funny, but the tech package isn't a big draw for me.

But I can see why a Stelvio owner might be interested.

And jeeze, even Sportys have ABS brakes now, so yeah, I get it.


Low, thanks for making my point. I kinda figured you had no facts or experience to back up your attitude.  ;-T

[oldbike54]

Dog , are we still fighting ? If they throw a 1700 T-bird in the mix as suggested earlier , well, all else will be revealed for what they are  ~;
Dusty

[Kev m]

Dog , are we still fighting ? If they throw a 1700 T-bird in the mix as suggested earlier , well, all else will be revealed for what they are  ~;
Dusty

Oh REALLY? Well, it does appear to be a hair quicker than the Cali 1400 (again, going by MCN's numbers):

2010 T-Bird - 93 rwhp / 74 ft. lbs. / 801 lbs wet (within pounds of the Harley and Indian) / 13.31 1/4 mile.

[oldbike54]

You guys were beginning to get along , just stirring the pot .  **C  ;) I am waiting for some head to head testing , so I might ignore that also . ::) Are we really arguing performance figures on a bunch of barges , what next , a roll on comparison between riding mowers . Most of these bikes will be ridden in parades at 45 MPH .
Dusty