Project Live Wire - Electric Harley Davidson merged threadfest

[oldbike54]

Interesting how this forum makes us tip toe around social issues but it is open season on Harley bashing and stereotyping Harley owners.  Is this what is called hypocrisy? 

Well gentlemen living in the past, the face of the Harley owner is changing.  At least among those buying new machines.  A large percentage of the Road Glide riders I have met wear modular helmets, kevlar gear with armor, gloves and boots. 

Of course I know this post will probably get deleted because I am not piling on with the hate talk.   

  I literally have no idea what you are carrying on about ??? No one is bashing the MoCo , we are simply saying they are making a really poor business decision by offering a product that isn't competitive with the Zero , and at a much higher price . The Harley mystique is fading , this ain't gonna be a success .

 Dusty

[Moto Fugazzi]

  I literally have no idea what you are carrying on about ??? No one is bashing the MoCo , we are simply saying they are making a really poor business decision by offering a product that isn't competitive with the Zero , and at a much higher price . The Harley mystique is fading , this ain't gonna be a success .

 Dusty

The main thing to think about is battery technology. IIRC, the HD bike battery pack is good for 1200 charging cycles. That probably equates to about 1200 miles of riding, give or take. Many of these batteries loose 20% capacity after 500 charging cycles, and some variations can go bad if fully discharged. After a few years, that battery pack will need to be replaced, and if batteries change in that time, you may not be able to retrofit a new pack into the old bike. This would be another expensive lawn ornament for someone. Even if the new battery packs are compatible, what's a first generation electric bike going to be worth in 5 or ten years? My 2009 V7C isn't worth a lot, but at least it will always run as long as we have gasoline.
Ken

[oldbike54]

The main thing to think about is battery technology. IIRC, the HD bike battery pack is good for 1200 charging cycles. That probably equates to about 1200 miles of riding, give or take. Many of these batteries loose 20% capacity after 500 charging cycles, and some variations can go bad if fully discharged. After a few years, that battery pack will need to be replaced, and if batteries change in that time, you may not be able to retrofit a new pack into the old bike. This would be another expensive lawn ornament for someone. Even if the new battery packs are compatible, what's a first generation electric bike going to be worth in 5 or ten years? My 2009 V7C isn't worth a lot, but at least it will always run as long as we have gasoline.
Ken
Ken
[/quote

 Dunno , that's where the aftermarket might come in , similar to the way a car from 1960 can be updated with current tech . No problem is insurmountable if people are interested .

 Dusty

[Shorty]

I still got yer dot com right here...     I cannot bitch too much about electric bikes, being a proud fanboy of the BMW K75..     Smooth and quiet is ok with me. I just ain't paying a premium for a bike with a limited range.

[LowRyter]

Considering that there have been electric cars available for sale over 100 years ago, I'm guessing a lot of people thought about it.  Just figuring out where to put 1000 lbs of batteries was the problem.

\


really? hmmm, it does sound familiar.

[Moto Fugazzi]

The main thing to think about is battery technology. IIRC, the HD bike battery pack is good for 1200 charging cycles. That probably equates to about 1200 miles of riding, give or take. Many of these batteries loose 20% capacity after 500 charging cycles, and some variations can go bad if fully discharged. After a few years, that battery pack will need to be replaced, and if batteries change in that time, you may not be able to retrofit a new pack into the old bike. This would be another expensive lawn ornament for someone. Even if the new battery packs are compatible, what's a first generation electric bike going to be worth in 5 or ten years? My 2009 V7C isn't worth a lot, but at least it will always run as long as we have gasoline.
Ken
[/quote

 Dunno , that's where the aftermarket might come in , similar to the way a car from 1960 can be updated with current tech . No problem is insurmountable if people are interested .

 Dusty

Good point, Dusty as there are already companies that rebuild batteries for these things. As technology moves ahead, I can see these lithium batteries becoming outdated, and retrofitting these bikes being very costly or next to impossible. Since I already own an electric lawn mower, electric skateboard (built it myself, including the battery pack) and an electric bicycle, I like the technology, but I also know how limited they are. On very hot days my lawn mower shuts down as the electronics get too hot. I hope these electric motorbikes don't have the same issue on a hot day. I hope HD has added many heat sinks and cooling fans to the bikes!
Ken

[fossil]

Make no mistake...electric cars / motorcycles / bicycles are in our future...whether we like it or not.   

A neighbor of mine just ordered one of these...RAD electric bikes...I told him I want to ride it when it arrives!!

Things like these are booming here in Germany in a way nobody has anticipated. My sister just bought a new KTM with a Bosch engine with 60 N m torque! The same as my V7 Stone! Of course the power is only about 600 W. But anyway!

[Moto Fugazzi]

Things like these are booming here in Germany in a way nobody has anticipated. My sister just bought a new KTM with a Bosch engine with 60 N m torque! The same as my V7 Stone! Of course the power is only about 600 W. But anyway!

They're selling great in Milwaukee as well. Mine has the  power assist "cut off" as 28mph and up to 80Nm of torque. We have some great curvy and hilly bike trails along Lake Michigan, and these bikes really make it enjoyable. I don't have to worry about any idiot riders on the trail (except for me).

[Mr Revhead]

they build a superior product for less money

Ah that's pretty much any Motorcycle make with any model already.

[marcdavo]

yeah, nah..cant see EV's replacing IC motors on a large scale any time soon. Not with current tech.
We need to retrofit all homes with charge points, build new homes with same. Then lotsa new charging stations scattered everywhere (300km range?). So now we need to upgrade the , transformers, lines etc, all the way back to the switch yards. And probably more power power supply for the extra current and amperage every night when we plug our EV's in to charge. Hmm.
We wont be driving from Brisbane  to Melbourne and back in a week. Not with 15hr or so charge times to go 300 km.
I think EV's will work in urban areas with lots of public transport. Not much use out back.
And Then !! Where do we get all the lithium etc from to build enough batteries to replace however many million (billion?) IC vehicles ? Then replace them every ten years or so?
Yeah, nah..cant see EV's replacing IC motors on a large scale any time soon. Not with current tech.

Or maybe only the rich and important people will be doing EV's. The rest of us plebs will be riding donkeys 

[marcdavo]

lol..maybe HD and MG should get ahead of the curve and start building donkeys...oh, wait..... 

[molly]

Of coourse for £90k/$108k you could always have one of these.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqmXC5fH_oA

You do get a HUD helmet and a jacket that is linked to the bike's brain.

[Rough Edge racing]

Cam , I'll be dead in 20 years , so there will be no way to prove or disprove your assumption . I will say this , when cordless tools first came out , every old school carpenter laughed and said "Those will never catch on" . Go to any job site now , the only corded tools will be a table saw , a miter saw , and the combination radio battery charger .

 Dusty

 Not exactly from my experience from a carrer in big construction...The first cordless tools appeared in the 1980's...Very little power and short battery life, limited use for the home owner..They were ignorored by tradesmen because they were useless...That changed when battery technology improved and the introduction of the multispeed Dewalt...

  I took a ride last night on the endless two lane roads around where I live...A beautiful 70 degree evening..downing shifing into the corners then accelerate with the rpm rising and falling on the upshifting....The sound and vibration from the engine....An internal combustion experience, it's why I ride...I am not alone thinking like this....But technology marches on and electric stuff will makes for less rider involvement and skill.... I'll be gone long before that...

[Darren Williams]

I've ridden a Zero dual sport and a Zero sport naked street bike. They were both fun. And with the sporty street bike, it was odd how you were able to concentrate on cornering technique more with no clutch/shifting. The brake to throttle transition, along with proper body position made it a quite fun ride. The dual sport off road was pretty good too.

Our manufacturing facility has been replacing pneumatic and electric plug in hand tools with DeWalt cordless tools (Impact drivers, drills, grinders, saws) for a couple years now and it was funny how the old guys resisted the change, but now are fully on board with them as much better.

Earlier I think someone said about range that "most" motorcyclist need more than 100 miles. Ponder that a bit and we might realize most motorcycles are not used for touring and 200+ mile day rides. Our company is redoing our parking lot, along with building expansion. How to accommodate charging stations for EVs was a major topic. Urban EV commuting will probably be a big deal in the not to distant future.

Dusty, I'm shocked you forgot Polaris bought Brammo, what with your superb marking idea of the "Plugindian" name!   

[tazio]

I imagine many folks who don't ride a motorcycle today don't do so because they've know, or can imagine, the stats.  Motorcyclists are at least 25x more likely to be injured or killed in a confrontation with a car than someone else in a car.

The fact that the motorcycle would no longer be powered by an internal combustion engine but by an electric motor will probably elicit a big yawn from the already-non-riding public, and an even bigger yawn from their current customer base.

Bob

I think you are on to something here, the general public perceptions of motorcycle safety (and regardless of how statistics can be bent to make an argument) will most likely make e-motorbikes a hard sell to the masses.
It's going to take legislation (NO IC Engines within these City parameters!)
to significantly increase e-motorbike sales.
Personally, I would love to see the masses choose to use e-vehicles for work commutes..but again it will probably take legislation.

[twowheeladdict]

  I literally have no idea what you are carrying on about ??? No one is bashing the MoCo , we are simply saying they are making a really poor business decision by offering a product that isn't competitive with the Zero , and at a much higher price . The Harley mystique is fading , this ain't gonna be a success .

 Dusty

Funny how you focus on the MoCo where I was referring to the derogatory description of the owners.   

[Dilliw]

Some of you guys believe the IC engine has been around since the beginning of civilization , when in reality it is just a blip . E vehicles are coming as surely as the IC engine replaced the horse , which I might remind you caused great consternation among the horse loyalists . Change is the one constant , how many of you saw the personal computer revolution ?

 Dusty

I am sure of change as a constant, but I'm less sure of E vehicles as the solution.  It's all about generation, storage and transmission and E vehicles only solve 1 of those (although they transmit very well).  The IC competes with E and with improvements in transmission could even surpass its thermal efficiency.  Mazda's second gen Skyactiv-X (out next year) and 3rd gen (in design) are examples.  E vehicles will fight back with improved storage but both technologies will fall or survive history based on how we generate energy.  It will never make sense to power a bunch of E vehicles by burning coal.

[alanp]

Wow, you get it!  Well said, sir.

Well actually, neither one of you get it.  The main point of electric vehicles is that they require about 25% as much energy as a comparable IC engine vehicle.  It's not where the energy comes from, its that there is so much less of it needed to accomplish the same task. 

[oldbike54]

Funny how you focus on the MoCo where I was referring to the derogatory description of the owners.   

 Dude , no one has said anything worse than what we say about Guzzi riders , it's part of the culture .

               

I am sure of change as a constant, but I'm less sure of E vehicles as the solution.  It's all about generation, storage and transmission and E vehicles only solve 1 of those (although they transmit very well).  The IC competes with E and with improvements in transmission could even surpass its thermal efficiency.  Mazda's second gen Skyactiv-X (out next year) and 3rd gen (in design) are examples.  E vehicles will fight back with improved storage but both technologies will fall or survive history based on how we generate energy.  It will never make sense to power a bunch of E vehicles by burning coal.

 I agree George , but even here in Oklahoma we are producing almost 25% of our electricity with wind , a smaller portion with solar , and those technologies are improving everyday .

 Dusty

[Ncdan]

While reading all these great responses I still think my assessment may be close to reality, which is. In regards to the EV vehicles, motorcycles, cars, trucks etc, our generation, 60 to the grave, will not except this mode of travel. That being said, our grandkids is a different story. I thinks acceptable electric vehicles are still 10-20 years out. Why, three reasons, RANGE RANGE RANGE:)

[oldbike54]

While reading all these great responses I still think my assessment may be close to reality, which is. In regards to the EV vehicles, motorcycles, cars, trucks etc, our generation, 60 to the grave, will not except this mode of travel. That being said, our grandkids is a different story. I thinks acceptable electric vehicles are still 10-20 years out. Why, three reasons, RANGE RANGE RANGE:)

 Young folks are so far out in front of us geezers on this , kinda funny to watch old guys claiming it won't happen , while kids have already moved on . Way of the world I suppose .

 Dusty

[LowRyter]

               
 I agree George , but even here in Oklahoma we are producing almost 25% of our electricity with wind , a smaller portion with solar , and those technologies are improving everyday .

 Dusty

........and the remaining 75% is largely natural gas.

[Tusayan]

Young folks are so far out in front of us geezers on this , kinda funny to watch old guys claiming it won't happen , while kids have already moved on . Way of the world I suppose

I think few kids are among the buyers of the 2% of US new car sales which utilize electric propulsion...  Teslas are bought by people who are both trendy and rich, and the latter is the more relevant factor when it comes to buying something extravagantly expensive, and only a few kids are rich.

I don't personally think 'believing' is at the same level of importance as 'doing', but I do think that understanding the difference becomes more natural with age.

[oldbike54]

I think few kids are among the buyers of the 2% of US new car sales which utilize electric propulsion...  Teslas are bought by people who are both trendy and rich, and the latter is the more relevant factor when it comes to buying something extravagantly expensive, and only a few kids are rich.

I don't personally think 'believing' is at the same level of importance as 'doing', but I do think that understanding the difference becomes more natural with age.

 We continue using the Tesla as a benchmark , ignoring the fact that most major manufacturers are developing affordable E vehicles . I tend to think of the early E vehicles as the De Dions of the late 1890's , more just an experimental phase of development .

 Dusty

[Tusayan]

Developing and selling are two different things. The former is about hope. In terms of sales Tesla has most of the 2%, indicating that those who have "moved on" are wealthy, and therefore not often young. Fiat sold some electric cars at a huge loss in California and although they are highly range limited, they would be a good choice for somebody on a budget who does not need much utility: about $9K value today for a used one - they depreciated like rocks.

[Testarossa]

Well actually, neither one of you get it.  The main point of electric vehicles is that they require about 25% as much energy as a comparable IC engine vehicle.  It's not where the energy comes from, its that there is so much less of it needed to accomplish the same task.

[oldbike54]

Developing and selling are two different things. The former is about hope. In terms of sales Tesla has most of the 2%, indicating that those who have "moved on" are wealthy, and therefore not often young. Fiat sold some electric cars at a huge loss in California and although they are highly range limited, they would be a good choice for somebody on a budget who does not need much utility: about $9K value today for a used one - they depreciated like rocks.

 You are only observing the market here in the US , worldwide Tesla delivered over 95,000 new vehicles during the last reported quarter .

 As for depreciation , have you been paying attention , any new vehicle's value drops like a rock now once it has left the dealership . Even the once vaunted HD resale value has disappeared .

 Dusty

[kirby1923]

Well actually, neither one of you get it.  The main point of electric vehicles is that they require about 25% as much energy as a comparable IC engine vehicle.  It's not where the energy comes from, its that there is so much less of it needed to accomplish the same task.

But define "task". Unless you live in an urban area or it is used for recreational purposes  the task can't be accomplished for the vast majority of people traveling by over the road. vehicles.

Totally unusable for my required "tasks"...

And 'till the battery tech is develop a BUNCH more is almost fantasy and considering all the trade offs to produce the mechanisms that make it possible at all as in manufacturing and the fact the batteries of today don't last for very many cycles considering the investment  of a high end automobile or a scoot, depreciating very fast as the "new models show up.

Might be a business opportunity for somebody "recycling batteries and cars/motos. Might be big.

Not anywhere near ready for prime time..\\ for the masses.

[oldbike54]

But define "task". Unless you live in an urban area or it is used for recreational purposes  the task can't be accomplished for the vast majority of people traveling by over the road. vehicles.

Totally unusable for my required "tasks"...

And 'till the battery tech is develop a BUNCH more is almost fantasy and considering all the trade offs to produce the mechanisms that make it possible at all as in manufacturing and the fact the batteries of today don't last for very many cycles considering the investment  of a high end automobile or a scoot, depreciating very fast as the "new models show up.

Might be a business opportunity for somebody "recycling batteries and cars/motos. Might be big.

Not anywhere near ready for prime time..

 Mike , that sounds a lot like the arguments made when IC powered cars first started appearing . There were actually people who said that the human body can't breath when traveling any faster than 12 MPH .

 Dusty

[kirby1923]

Mike , that sounds a lot like the arguments made when IC powered cars first started appearing . There were actually people who said that the human body can't breath when traveling any faster than 12 MPH .

 Dusty

My great grandmother in West Texas never took a ride in one of those new fangled death traps. She believed that God didn't intend the human critter to move any faster than it could run...(Or fly if he didn't have feathers.)

:-)