Aero engine rescue

[ruote]

Never been sorry for buying a tool, except when I should have gotten a better one . 

[Chuck in Indiana]

Time for an aero engine update. I was talking on the phone with Dusty today and told him I'd fixed the Aero Lario until it broke.  I'd just put my new used front brake discs on, opened the hanger door, started it up with lots of choke.. the long intake runners require a fair amount of choke until they warm up. Fuel drops out of suspension, and.. oh well..trust me, it requires choke to idle until the runners warm up. I was keeping it running with the choke and it just quit. Dead. Nothing. Wouldn't fire a lick.
I thought, "What's the chance of carburetors stopping carbureting?" None.
What's the chance of both plugs failing at once?
Slim.
What's the chance of the Siemens relay I put on the ignition (removed from the Centauro years ago) failing?
Pretty darn good. 
I thought at the time that I was adding a failure mode to the bike that wasn't there, but wanted to take every electrical load off my kool Tron switches possible. Just in case, I wrapped another relay in foam and threw it in the tool kit. I figured that would cover it.   
So. I just knew it was a relay failure. Imagine my surprise when I checked for power at the coils..
2016-05-10_02-51-28 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
Thought, WTF? and pulled the plugs. Checked them on my antique (naturally) tester, and they were dead.
2016-05-10_02-46-46 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
They were fuel fouled, so took them to the solvent tank, cleaned them up, blasted them dry with air, checked them on the tester, and they tested ok. Not great..blew out at about 90 psi. but ok.
Naturally, it started right up, and I rode it up to the Guzzi Garage, but thought.."Maybe a little high speed blast will clean them off better.." Ran down to the next crossroad, in full squid gear; Tennis shoes, jeans, T shirt, and no helmet. In front of me was a mile of pretty fresh pavement, no crops on either side for deer to run out of, places for cops to hide  etc. Laid on the tank, pinned the throttle and to quote HST "with my balls on fire.."
It was like being a kid again, and it was good for me.   
The next order of business: Since this is the only engine like this running, maybe I should take a look at the heat range of what Guzzi is using in the V9 engine. Maybe 1 heat range warmer would be good. It's presently running

. New plugs NGK BR9EIX iridium.

That was 6K miles ago. Maybe BR8s are in order? After all, we're experimenting here.

[jacksonracingcomau]

Can you keep it running with enricheners off ? Even with really long inlet runner on sons XR120 (with Dell Orto) we only used it to start, flicked off, warmed up before riding by using throttle.
Might just be a jetting thing ?
Other than that, I'd try non iridium before buying exy plugs (Guzzi content) in different ranges.

[Muzz]

I have reread your post Chuck and I don't see just what range you are running.

By inference, is it a 7? I would have thought that would have been a bit cold.

As a matter of interest, are they the plugs that were used when it was still being used in a done?

edit. Assuming 7=cold, 9=hot.

[ITSec]

BR8s are everywhere in the 1200s, both the single and dual plug bikes use them...

[Chuck in Indiana]

Can you keep it running with enricheners off ? Even with really long inlet runner on sons XR120 (with Dell Orto) we only used it to start, flicked off, warmed up before riding by using throttle.
Might just be a jetting thing ?
Other than that, I'd try non iridium before buying exy plugs (Guzzi content) in different ranges.

Yeah, you can, but you can't let it drop much below 3000 rpm. I just hate doing that to a cold engine. The plugs I'm running are what I found as a direct replacement for the OEM unavailable in the US plug. As an aero engine, though, I would expect that plug to maybe be a little too cold? Until now, I haven't had any real problem except it seems to be getting harder to cold start. Maybe it's just telling me to put new plugs in it?
Jetting? It acts to me that it could be a little richer on the idle jet. The needles are 3 turns out.
Naturally, it needs new plugs. In my experience, once a plug is fouled for whatever reason it's never the same.

[pauldaytona]

I had similar experiences with the small iridium plugs in the daytona. When they are drowned in fuel they stop quick.  Then put more siimple ones in bike starts. After that the iridium worked again.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Ok, the V9 aero engine  uses a CPR8EB-9. That's one of those sissy 10mm plugs. I'll get me some manly 14mm BR8ES or EGs.

[kevdog3019]

You can gap the plug more to help with rich situations.  It won't foul as easily.  This from EM.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Ok, we're experimenting here, but I think we can safely say that these plugs are too cold unless you are running at near WOT as the Aero engine was designed.
2016-05-12_02-50-03 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
Installed one heat range warmer, and we'll experiment with them a while. Looking back through my maintenance logs, the 07 Norge was 3 heat ranges warmer, so this should be no problem at all. I just used the heat range that came in it at first to be safe.

I know this is pretty basic, but I have seen friend's bikes come in to the  Guzzi Garage with loose plugs. If you are putting in new plugs with crush washers, bring the plug up to the crush washer and turn the wrench 3/4 of a turn more. That'll be just right. If you tighten it until it feels right, the crush washer will continue to crush with cylinder pressure and end up too loose after running a while.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Time for an update..
First major service completed today. Compression is 80/79. (!!) Torqued the heads for the last time. The new cylinder hold down studs I made are ok.
2016-10-07_04-22-47 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
Changed fluids, new plugs, etc.
Hmmmm, I wonder if the valve cover gaskets for the V9 would fit? I'm being *really* careful not to tear the unobtainium ones.
I would say this experiment has been a total success.  I'd ride it anywhere.

[Steph]

80/79 psi? 
That seems a bit low...no?

[Chuck in Indiana]

80/79 psi? 
That seems a bit low...no?

A leakdown tester. Put 80 in, the second gauge reads leakage. 10% leakage is considered pretty good.  That would be 80/72. I *have* seen a cylinder that was 80/80.. but  that was once in a lifetime of doing leakdown tests. 

[IceBlue]

Hi Chuck
The aero mill was my dream some years back. I'm glad you were the one to live it. I'd had no chance of getting that mill here in Dk. Thanks for sharing your thrills and lessons learned on this project.

Ciao
Brian

[sign216]

Hi Chuck
The aero mill was my dream some years back. I'm glad you were the one to live it. I'd had no chance of getting that mill here in Dk. Thanks for sharing your thrills and lessons learned on this project.

Ciao
Brian

Hi Ice,
Haven't seen you in a while.  And yes, the drone engine is the Holy Grail of the Guzzi smallblock.
I con't believe someone actually got one.
Joe

[Chuck in Indiana]

Hiya Brian.. don't be a stranger..

[Triple Jim]

Ok, we're experimenting here, but I think we can safely say that these plugs are too cold unless you are running at near WOT as the Aero engine was designed.

What plugs are those?  They look almost as cold as a set of Champion L55Gs I tried briefly in my '72 H2.

[Chuck in Indiana]

What plugs are those?  They look almost as cold as a set of Champion L55Gs I tried briefly in my '72 H2.

Those are BR9ES. They cross reference to the OEM plug which is a weird euro plug..Bosch W3CS . I went with a BR8ES, but at the KY rally, it was getting cranky with about 5K miles on them. I put them in my aircraft plug checker, and sure enough they were bad. Looked good, though, so I put a new set of BR8s back in. I'm (sorta) scared to go to a hotter yet plug..

[John A]

I remember talking to a tech rep when we were raceing who said that with modern pump gas additives when the insulator gets soaked, the plug is junk for high performance applications because it will cause weak spark and possibly a misfire. Cleaning the plug is of little use as you cannot get the insulater to release whatever chemical has penetrated it and it won't burn off like it did with the old generation of fuels. That's what I remember from late last century.

[flangeman_70]

Some inspiration for you others that might want to try this
http://www.centauro.de/NTX/V82/V82-START.html

[Chuck in Indiana]

I remember talking to a tech rep when we were raceing who said that with modern pump gas additives when the insulator gets soaked, the plug is junk for high performance applications because it will cause weak spark and possibly a misfire. Cleaning the plug is of little use as you cannot get the insulater to release whatever chemical has penetrated it and it won't burn off like it did with the old generation of fuels. That's what I remember from late last century.

That has been my experience. Normally, I start the Lario with choke, and ride off keeping it running with throttle as best I can until the intake runners warm up. Takes about a half mile. If I leave the choke on too long, it'll fuel foul the plugs. That happened at the KY rally when I was waiting for Dorcia to do whatever wimmens do  when we were going for a ride. It ran poorly the rest of the weekend, and wouldn't burn off no matter how hard I ran it.  The plug tester showed all. Weak spark at low pressure, and none at over 90 psi.
FWIW, I was talking to Jim Barron at Rose Farm this summer, and he says if a plug comes out, he puts a new one in.

[John A]

That is good advise from Jim at Rosefarm, I think I'll replace plugs at a shorter interval. I was thinking that maybe you could put little 12 volt heaters on the intake runners. What do you think?

[Chuck in Indiana]

That is good advise from Jim at Rosefarm, I think I'll replace plugs at a shorter interval. I was thinking that maybe you could put little 12 volt heaters on the intake runners. What do you think?

I'm thinking you're overthinking it. 

[twhitaker]

I'm thinking you're overthinking it. 

Then, by definition, you're underthinking it.   

[John A]

you just don't wanna do it, Chuck

[IceBlue]

Hiya Brian.. don't be a stranger..

Hello Chuck
Trying not to. Quite busy these days.
Still a Guzzi lover 

Looking forward to retirement giving me more time, but still 4-5 years to go 

[Chuck in Indiana]

It's been a while.. time for an update. I've been extremely happy with the Aero engine, and have put several thousand miles on it.
However.. 
It is cold natured at startup. I'm guessing that it is from the longer than normal intake manifold runners. I'm using the "all or nothing" stock Lario flip choke, and that is either too much or not enough. Sooo.. I found a Magura choke lever on Amazon. It was set up to put on a handlebar, but there's no room on the Lario for that. I have a lathe and mill and know how to use it.. and made a mount for the lever using the mirror location.
2017-07-08_10-38-32 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
A trip to the bicycle store got a cable and housing. Did a little figuring, made an end out of steel .120" in diameter, .125 long, with an .063" hole through it countersinked on each end. Sorry, I forgot to take a picture.
My friend Andy gave me an old loop frame splitter. I cut it apart to just use one side of it. Left the bolt hole, but couldn't find any place to mount it that didn't cause the cables to be unnaturally bent, so zip tied it to the frame rail.
2017-07-08_10-30-53 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
Even a blind hog finds an acorn every now and then..  measuring twice and cutting once worked this time. 

[Unkept]

  The Aero engine story has become one of my fondest memories.

-Joe

[Chuck in Indiana]

Back to the experimental department.. 
2017-06-20_07-48-17 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
We currently have a thread on your favorite motorcycle going on.. I have my three "wind up" bikes.. you know the bikes you wind up with? When I had the Mighty Scura out in California, it was my favorite, but back here in Indiana, that Ohlins suspension is wasted. The little Monza is a hoot.
But.. I find when I just want to go for a put the AeroLario generally gets the nod. I was out roaring around today, and coming back through the metropolis of Elwood, Indiana.. it started to idle poorly. I thought, "crap.. it's trying to foul a plug." Sure enough..
2017-07-18_03-21-21 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
Those of you that have followed this thread know that the Aero engine had a very cold plug when used as an airplane engine. It roughly translated to a BR9ES, so I tried that one first. Fouled it. I've been running a BR8ES since, but this is the second one it's fouled. You don't need to tell me 3 times, so I just put in a pair of BR7ES, and will experiment with them for a while.
Synced the carbs and set the idle.
2017-07-18_03-21-46 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
I love this thing.. 

[Chuck in Indiana]

Had a look at the new plugs after several hundred miles going to the Wisconsin rally. They look much cleaner, and cold starts are a piece of cake.
Gave her a bath..
2017-08-18_04-08-49 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr