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Actually centrifugal force has very little to do with what makes the bike lean, its the Gyroscopic forces that do that.The spinning wheel is like a gyro, and at lower rpm the forces are very small but are proportional to rpm and become quite strong.Turning a spinning gyro (w/handlebars) will cause it to tilt resulting in the lean. It will tilt around a point 90 degrees in the direction of the spin opposite to direction of the turning force applied.:-)
Ok Dusty.This is where the problem lies for me.I did not say that centrifugal force tilts the bike and have never believed it to be so..So I am not at odds with Kirby on that.The one and only point that I dispute is that “at low speeds, (say 10 mph and under), countersteering is not used to initiate a turn.”Now I don’t care if you wheel out a hundred disciples that’ll hold hands and swear I’m full of crap, or Kirby has won the Nobel prize for working Man’s Physics for Dummies..It is only the above statement in quotes regarding the lack of necessity to countersteer at walking pace that I need educating on, (or someone does).If you bring any other point into the debate...?You’re answering the question I didn’t ask..
Are you saying that at slow speeds, a left turn begins by counter steering right and then the front wheel turns left into the turn as the bike also leans to the left ? This is all very interesting and I'm learning something...
At slow speeds you may initiate a turn by a slight counter steerI don't indulge this activity.
One more point to clarify would be that a bicycle can be balanced while stationary by moving the front wheel contact from left to right with the bars. This is the same trail effect that allows you to steer left, go left at very low speeds. Centrifugal force and counter steering, with or without wheels and gyroscopics as per a ski bike, takes over above walking pace.
Right, kids are usually pretty sharp and figure things like that out on their own, even if they don't realize it.
Here's a short video I just took.....Me on the old Honda...Watch as I go onto the lawn and head back towards the camera and then jerk the bars to the left...Bike turns left...I was trying really hard to avoid counter steering....Could it be I still was pushing the bars ever so slightly to the right but it's not noticeable? The bike flying by is good special effects.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nalPASnb1b4
The force of gravity is a constant , the other forces involved in cornering vary with speed . Try this experiment , at slow speed initiate a turn by counter steering and observe what happens . Yep , if you don't put a foot down you will fall down because the force of gravity will be pushing down . The other forces aren't great enough to overcome the force of gravity at really slow speeds . Go ahead , we will wait patiently Dusty
Yep, you can see a quick right before the left turn.
Now we need to expand in to "counter leaning", when rolling speed drops below walking speed...
A mod that promotes controversy...Trouble in paradise..?
I've been promoted from "diplomatico di moto" to "agente provocatore"
I was reluctant to get involved in this discussion however I am going to venture out into the unknown here. After I offer an explanation based on my experience as a motor officer and having to qualify twice a year on a Precision slow speed course, I will remain silent and possibly learn something. Counter steering does not apply here. You only apply this technique at speed. If one is making a sharp left turn around a cone you MUST turn the bars to the left as well as leaning the entire bike sharply to the left side. Dragging the floorboards is common in these extreme maneuvers. If there is any way a rider can make a sharp left turn by turning the bars to the right, and visa versa, please send a video executing this maneuver so I can learn a new technique in precision riding.
It is amazing to watch a really talented motor officer maneuver a large motorbike thru an obstacle course . Dusty
I agree Dusty. I still go to the competitions to watch the young guys, some of which are two generations from me, to see if any techniques has changed, they have not. I must admit I can no longer ride at that degree of perfection. One must ride that way all the time to continue riding way.
Motor officers need to have a very particular set of skills that don't come into play much under normal riding conditions . Have had the chance to ride one of the courses set up at the OHP training center at Burns Flat OK , negotiating the course requires a different mind set than normal street riding , very challenging . We have a small contingent of pursuit troopers here that employ Hayabusas , watching those guys toss around a Busa was entertaining . One of those guys lives here in Muskogee , have ridden with him a few times on his regular street bike , the man can ride a motorbike . Dusty
I don't see it on the last sharp turn..And I did yank the bars.....Must be very subtle......Interes ting we both see the same scene and have different points of view
Repeat the experiment. Only this time let go of the bars. Then, avoiding any other input, make the left turn by pressing with an open hand on the left side. It will be hard to avoid other inputs at low speed, like moving on the seat.Report back what you find.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLzB5oriblk
The main point is the rider is maintaining the turn by steering and leaning into the turn...This is my point and it's something that does not happen at higher speeds when countersteering opposite the turn alone maintains the arc of the bike into the turn...
Since we're talking about bicycles here, I'm surprised no one has mentioned it, but don't most people here remember riding their bike as a kid or adult with no hands and once you mastered riding in a straight line at a reasonable speed or faster, you learned how to ride going around a corner with NO hands also. You can gently (not police style competition) get a bike to follow a curve (pedaling or not) w/o any input from the hands at all, now tell me how that translates to counter "steering" without input in the handlebars, rather than leaning and "controlling" the turn using body shifting. P.D. Riding a unicycle you can easily turn hard corners or gentle corners, and there are no handlebars to "push on" either. It's body lean and input thru the pedals...so I'm guessing you'll say we are counter steering thru the pedals.By the way, I do agree that the counter steering of push left, go left is a very easy and fun way to ride when going thru extreme twisties, but for general riding, it doesn't seem to be as conscious a required decision to stay in the right spot on the road, but for sure it's happening intuitively.:)
