Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest

[Huzo]

You need to focus on the word "initiate"  Countersteering is used to initiate any turn where the bike is leaned over.

Too late , you’re quoted.
And 100% correct IMO...

[Rough Edge racing]

Too late , you’re quoted.
And 100% correct IMO...

Ah, it's not over till it's over.... In response to what Wayne asked me to do I said the following from actual observation on a motorcycle a few hours ago...

        My reply;   

Well, I did as you asked....Rolling at a speed just fast enough to be stable....Pushing with an open hand on the left bar makes the bike do a quick  very slight left lean as expected but it turns to the right  . It does not want to turn left while I'm doing this, not at all....This old dirt bike with knobby tires may steer a bit different?

[Huzo]

As long as no one becomes rude, I can’t see a barrier to a prolonged thread.
“How was your day” is a good example.

[wirespokes]

The push bike is countersteering all the time if you provide no inputs. We have all seen a pushbike or motorbike , continue on alone if a rider falls off.

Actually, that's not countersteering. What you're talking about here is a normal function of motorcycle steering geometry that steers the wheel the direction the bike's falling towards. It makes minute corrections constantly running down the road. That's why tight steering bearings or a tight steering damper results in the bike wandering - not holding a straight line.

Countersteering is the action of turning the wheel in the opposite direction to the turn.

Just because we don't normally countersteer at slow speeds doesn't mean it can't be done. If you countersteer at slow speed be ready to hit the gas otherwise you'll fall over. It's the best way to make a quick and tight U turn, but you will need to counter-lean! (sit up straight, not leaned with the bike)

[Huzo]

Actually, that's not countersteering. What you're talking about here is a normal function of motorcycle steering geometry that steers the wheel the direction the bike's falling towards. It makes minute corrections constantly running down the road. That's why tight steering bearings or a tight steering damper results in the bike wandering - not holding a straight line.

Countersteering is the action of turning the wheel in the opposite direction to the turn.

Just because we don't normally countersteer at slow speeds doesn't mean it can't be done. If you countersteer at slow speed be ready to hit the gas otherwise you'll fall over. It's the best way to make a quick and tight U turn, but you will need to counter-lean! (sit up straight, not leaned with the bike)

All right then, I’ll take that on board..
My suggestion was, that as the pushbike goes to fall left, the wheel flops that way and throws the bike to the right.
The wheel then flops to the right and over she goes to the left and on and on...
This effect is amplified with each cycle until...Bang, and she crashes.
I wasn’t suggesting this was the same as a human input, but your point is well made and I’ll withdraw
the comment.

[tris]

What happened? I go away for  a couple of days and the MOTHER of all discussions appears to have broken out 

I'll say this

Simplistically:-

I know that if I'm pushing the bike around in the garage the gyroscopic/counter steering effect is minimal and I point the front wheel where it want the bike to go

When I'm riding the bike the gyroscopic/counter steering is greatly increased with speed and becomes the primary means of steering the bike

At what point it changes from one to the other I don't know, but the clever bit IMO is that my brain (and all of yours) can seamlessly transfer across as the speed increases   

That is all I have

[wirespokes]

All right then, I’ll take that on board..
My suggestion was, that as the pushbike goes to fall left, the wheel flops that way and throws the bike to the right.
The wheel then flops to the right and over she goes to the left and on and on...
This effect is amplified with each cycle until...Bang, and she crashes.
I wasn’t suggesting this was the same as a human input, but your point is well made and I’ll withdraw
the comment.

I think what you're talking about - the bike continuing on, riderless, all the while self-correcting for road irregularities and staying upright - continues as long as there's enough momentum and gyroscopic force. Unless something forces the front wheel radically to the side, it'll keep going until it's too slow and falls over.

It's not a thing of oscillations finally getting out of hand causing the bike to go down. What's cause here and what's effect?

In a sense, the front wheel correcting for unbalance is being the affect, but on the other hand, it is causing the bike staying balanced. Sort of a feed-back loop kind of a thing.

tris - ...but the clever bit IMO is that my brain (and all of yours) can seamlessly transfer across as the speed increases   

Yeah, isn't it??? Now if we could just understand how we manage to do that!

[Old Jock]

I cannot resist, despite my earlier post

I am with the "bike steers in the direction the front wheel is pointed" at low speed (around walking pace).

IMHO (and it's only the way I see it) what countersteering is all about, centripital (or centrifugal if you prefer, 2 sides of the same coin really) throwing the bike out, the front wheel is a gyro and wants to remain stable in  the direction it is moving. Opposite input forces an instability and precession pushes the bike over and down the bike goes into the turn

At low speed, centrpital force is minimal, as is gyroscopic, the only significant forces are gravity and contact patch, so the bike steers where you point it, as Tris and others have stated.

You don't countersteer when wheeling it around the garage why are the phyics different if you are astride it?

[Rough Edge racing]

 There are two equally strong opinions expressed in this thread...The video I shot yesterday and more riding around slow on the dirt bike convinced me of my opinion...It may just be the dirt bike but later on I'll try it on the 79 Triumph 750....My 96 Ducati 900 Monster definitely steers in the direction of the turn at low speed because the limited steering comes into play...But I can not  say that a bit of countersteer is not used prior to the start of the Ducati low speed turn...
  Perhaps some of you guys need to do slow speed experiments, yes?

[twowheeladdict]

You don't countersteer when wheeling it around the garage why are the phyics different if you are astride it?

Because you are holding the bike upright.  If you are astride it and can hold the bike upright while progressing slowly you can steer the bike but you have to adjust your weight to counterbalance it. 

We generally don't go around corners with the bike upright.  I have done this on the trials bike to avoid a tree trunk but it is not natural. 

If you are leaning the bike over, you are initiating that lean by countersteering. 

Have you ever seen someone come to a stop and have to quickly remove their right foot from the brake and put it down because the bike wants to fall to the right?  They could have avoided that by countersteering as they come to a stop (pushing on the left handlebar grip) to force the weight to shift to the left.  Try it and you will see. 

How do I unsubscribe to this thread?

[Rough Edge racing]

How do I unsubscribe to this thread?

  By not reading it and sticking to what you said yesterday. ......

Now I see why the first couple posters called this another oil thread.  LOL!  Please don't quote me again because I am done with this discussion.  :)

[Tusayan]

Take your motorcycle off the stand, turn the steering full lock to the left and let go.  Which way does it fall over?  That's how the bike can be leaned at very low speed.

None of this stuff is really rocket science, it's just two effects operating simultaneously, superimposed.  Only one effect (countersteering) fades to nothing as speed slows to nothing, and in that circumstance the very weak effect of trail shows it head.

[wirespokes]

twa - don't confuse front end geometry with countersteering. When the wheel is turned to the right, it kicks off centerline to the left. The bike is unbalanced to the right and will lean that direction.

Like Old Jock said, different forces are at play between under 10mph.

Well said Tusayan - beat me to it!

[Wayne Orwig]

Take your motorcycle off the stand, turn the steering full lock to the left and let go.  Which way does it fall over?  That's how the bike can be leaned at very low speed.

That explains low speed lean with little or no counter steer.

[Tusayan]

What's interesting to me is that if you lean the bike at close to zero speed using a large steering angle and trail, with the bike now falling over in the direction you turned the bars, you can remove the lean by just accelerating a little bit and letting countersteering pick it up again.  You can initiate the lean with one effect and remove it with another. 

[oldbike54]

 ^^^ When in doubt , gas it .

 Dusty

[rocker59]

I think we need to call a conference at Cedarvale and consider adding "counter steering" to the contraband list, along with religion, politics, and gunz.

 

[oldbike54]

I think we need to call a conference at Cedarvale and consider adding "counter steering" to the contraband list, along with religion, politics, and gunz.

 

 Or we could do some field experiments , they won't solve anything , but they could be worth a few laughs 

 Dusty

[twowheeladdict]

twa - don't confuse front end geometry with countersteering. When the wheel is turned to the right, it kicks off centerline to the left. The bike is unbalanced to the right and will lean that direction.

Whatever.   

[PJPR01]

I think we need to call a conference at Cedarvale and consider adding "counter steering" to the contraband list, along with religion, politics, and gunz.

 

Hear Hear...I second the motion!

If you hold a bicycle, keeping it as completely vertical as possible, let it go and it falls to one side, did the bike "self initiate" its own counter steering? 

As they used to say on SNL...Discuss!  :)

[PJPR01]

Or we could do some field experiments , they won't solve anything , but they could be worth a few laughs 

 Dusty

Cedar Vale:  Moto Guzzi's Center for Counter Steering & Control, aka known as CVMGCCSC to be a bit cryptic from henceforth.

Almost as impressive as SPECTRE from James Bond lore!

[Darren Williams]

Round profile tires, rake/trail on the steering end, centrifugal force, gyro effect and balance all based on the afore mentioned changing parameters. Isn't physics fun! I enjoy reading these type of threads.

I have heard it said that most drops occur at slow speeds because the operator turns the handlebars without realizing what will happen.   

[Darren Williams]

Hear Hear...I second the motion!

If you hold a bicycle, keeping it as completely vertical as possible, let it go and it falls to one side, did the bike "self initiate" its own counter steering? 

As they used to say on SNL...Discuss!  :)

No such thing as "completely vertical" in the scientific world. If that could be attained, along with zero outside forces (again impossible), it wouldn't fall over. In the spirit of your question, the forks would most probably turn to the countersteered position when it fell over, whichever way it fell.

[kirby1923]

Good chance I'll make CV this year and most likely it will be a ride from SoCal.

I'm going to put a note on top of my tankbag.."countersteer log" .

I'm going to see how many countersteers it takes to go from CA to CV.

:-)

[PJPR01]

Good chance I'll make CV this year and most likely it will be a ride from SoCal.

I'm going to put a note on top of my tankbag.."countersteer log" .

I'm going to see how many countersteers it takes to go from CA to CV.

:-)

We could start a poll and guess.  I'll take a gander at 4,238,982 individual inputs on counter steering from start to end! 

[oldbike54]

Good chance I'll make CV this year and most likely it will be a ride from SoCal.

I'm going to put a note on top of my tankbag.."countersteer log" .

I'm going to see how many countersteers it takes to go from CA to CV.

:-)

 Well...

 

We could start a poll and guess.  I'll take a gander at 4,238,982 individual inputs on counter steering from start to end! 

 ...if it is windy it might be one 1,500 mile long counter steer 

 Dusty

[Huzo]

 
 ...if it is windy it might be one 1,500 mile long counter steer 

 Dusty

Is that windy as in..
“...The Long and Windy Road...?”
(Lennon, Mc Cartney)

[kirby1923]

Well...

 
 ...if it is windy it might be one 1,500 mile long counter steer 

 Dusty

Good point, but...

If the wind is in the right direction it might be almost none!