Author Topic: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest  (Read 43036 times)

Offline kirby1923

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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #120 on: April 23, 2019, 09:18:53 PM »
Watch any Motor Officer competition and you will quickly see that that is wrong . At slow speeds you steer into the turn .

 Dusty


This!

« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 09:46:37 PM by kirby1923 »
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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #121 on: April 23, 2019, 09:37:43 PM »
This is why it’s all going to end badly.
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Offline BRG-BIRD

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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #122 on: April 23, 2019, 10:06:59 PM »
On my very first ride with my first motorcycle on the very first curve at speed I figured out counter steering thankfully before the motorcycle went off the curve. Later the realization hit that I had been counter steering for years on my bicycle and didn’t realize it.

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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #123 on: April 23, 2019, 10:09:16 PM »
Ok...everyone, out of the pool!  5 minute break!

Counter Steelers on the left, Leaners on the right!!

Everyone...start your engines...and begin TURNING!!
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Offline Tusayan

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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #124 on: April 23, 2019, 10:56:55 PM »
Turning into my driveway at a slow speed, 7 -10 mph, I am definitely turning the bars into the turn just like a three wheeler.

The reason for that is below a very low speed, I would judge 5 mph or slower versus 7-10 mph, centrifugal force is not a major player.  However, when you turn the steering in a certain direction, geometric trail moves the contact patch away from the centerline of bike in the opposite direction.  The bike then falls into the turn in the direction the bars are turned.  Above the very low transition speed where centrifugal force starts to act, the effect of trail in this regard is negligible and counter steering works.

Offline wirespokes

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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #125 on: April 23, 2019, 11:11:50 PM »
 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :violent1: :popcorn:
Below a certain speed you are actually steering the bike instead of leaning , thus countersteering doesn't come into play . Think about it , when you are moving a bike around in the garage you steer it in the desired direction of travel .
Good point!

I forget now where the article was published , or the exact details , but above a certain speed (300 MPH maybe) , car steering reverses , then above a certain speed (400 MPH ?) it returns to normal . Explain that , go ahead , we'll wait patiently  :laugh:

 Dusty

I never noticed that effect - maybe I was holding on too tight for dear life. Have to pay more attention next time!
The reason for that is below a very low speed, I would judge 5 mph or slower versus 7-10 mph, centrifugal force is not a major player.  However, when you turn the steering in a certain direction, geometric trail moves the contact patch away from the centerline of bike in the opposite direction.  The bike then falls into the turn in the direction the bars are turned.  Above the very low transition speed where centrifugal force starts to act, the effect of trail in this regard is negligible and counter steering works.
I think you're right - centrifugal force is the key player here.

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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #126 on: April 24, 2019, 12:24:05 AM »
I think it’s become less about who is right and more about who do you want to upset the least..
When someone with a solid explanation based on physics enters the argument, it’ll be time to sit up again and take notice.
At the moment, the core WG respondents remind me of the first divisions of a single called organism.
A fair bit of jostling for sides before hostilities commence.
Most people have figured out by now where the strength lies. I can’t reach the dump button from my side..
Bugger..!
BTW
If initiating a turn a very low speed requires no countersteer input as popular opinion suggests, how is the lean inwards in the direction of the  turn generated, to counteract the centrifugal force ?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 12:33:00 AM by Huzo »

Offline Mr Revhead

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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #127 on: April 24, 2019, 12:30:35 AM »
I love the stories where someone says "I was counter steering as hard as I could around the turn" Still haven't figured out how you counter steer the full corner   :shocked:

It clicked in my head when "as at least one mentions above" you push the arm/shoulder/hand on the side you want to turn as you lean. Until then I couldn't get my head around it. Only, like several also mention, that I was already doing it! But once you understand it, you can refine it.


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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #128 on: April 24, 2019, 12:34:51 AM »
I love the stories where someone says "I was counter steering as hard as I could around the turn" Still haven't figured out how you counter steer the full corner   :shocked:

It clicked in my head when "as at least one mentions above" you push the arm/shoulder/hand on the side you want to turn as you lean. Until then I couldn't get my head around it. Only, like several also mention, that I was already doing it! But once you understand it, you can refine it.
You only need to apply a force to deviate a mass from it’s direction of travel.
Once the force is removed it will tend to remain in that plane of motion. A bloke in Cambridge said so while eating an apple.

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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #129 on: April 24, 2019, 12:54:42 AM »

This!
There is no one one these pages that knows more about balance of forces in a turn than you.
You know that there has to be a component of bank to keep the ball in the middle. In a left turn, how is that left bank initiated in an a/c...?
And a bike...?
In both cases once the turn is properly established the forces are in balance.
How would you get the bike to lean to the left initially ?

Offline kirby1923

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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #130 on: April 24, 2019, 02:30:08 AM »
Actually centrifugal force has very little to do with what makes the bike lean, its the Gyroscopic forces that do that.
The spinning wheel is like a gyro,  and at lower rpm the forces  are very small but are proportional to rpm and become quite strong.

Turning a spinning gyro (w/handlebars) will cause it to tilt resulting in the lean. It will tilt around a point 90 degrees in the direction of the spin opposite to direction of the turning force applied.

:-)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 02:39:04 AM by kirby1923 »
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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #131 on: April 24, 2019, 02:41:02 AM »
Actually centrifugal force has very little to do with what makes the bike lean, its the Gyroscopic forces that do that.
The spinning wheel is like a gyro,  and at lower rpm the forces  are very small but are proportional to rpm and become quite strong.

Turning a spinning gyro (w/handlebars) will cause it to tilt resulting in the lean. It will tilt 90 degrees in the direction of the spin opposite to the turning force applied.

:-)
Yes Kirby.
At no stage did I suggest that centrifugal force causes the lean. No one can find a quote where I intimated that.
We both know that it is the resolution of the vectors of gravity (vertical) and centrifugal (horizontal), that resolve to produce a resultant down through the contact patch.
Or if we didn’t, we do now.
My point was (and still is)..
If you are entering a left turn at very low speed, there is still an angle of lean that the bike must achieve to give a horizontal vector equal and opposite to that supplied by centrifugal force.
This is apparently not in dispute.
But my question (still) goes like this.
For a LEFT turn, how is the angle of bank to the left, initiated ?
That is a 14 word sentence that, if answered will put one side or other back in their place.
What you state regarding gyro’s is not in dispute, but it does not address the above question. If it’s possible to confine ourselves to this issue, can I be informed beyond my current level of understanding.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 02:43:31 AM by Huzo »

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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #132 on: April 24, 2019, 03:39:20 AM »
In most AC it would be the ailerons or the rudder...causing to AC to bank, which that alone would not result in a turn without using the elevator (pitch control). Your operating in 3 dimensions  no? Motos do not.

Gyroscopic forces cause the moto to lean (bank?) and due to the dynamics of a single track vehicle leaning will cause the machine to turn. However that is only at speeds of 10mph or so normally. Under that you Steer the moto with the bars.

And your point ?, as I can see no connection to a moto's turnings physics and an aircraft...

:-)
Yes some of your point is well made.
My point regarding the a/c is that although I understand the primary and secondary effects of the controls, I was trying not to stray into other areas that do not translate seamlessly.
Suffice to say, that it is the balance of forces in both cases that are to achieve equilibrium for a steady state situation.
I entered that topic because I knew that I would not have to thrash out some trifling little technicality that would steer us away from my question.
We both know that the lean angle needs to be present to counteract the force trying to throw the bike towards the outside of the turn.
No one will address this question in isolation, so mercifully for the reader I’ll make this my last attempt without sounding too sarcastic.
For a left hand turn, how is the bank angle of the bike initially achieved ?
Are you saying that turning the bars left, will result in a left lean at low speeds ?
If you are, then how do you account for the fact that reaching out with your single finger and pushing on the right bar on your pushbike at low speeds, will result in @ RIGHT turn.
Pushing on the right bar, is turning the handles to the left.
Countersteering at work I suggest.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 03:45:07 AM by Huzo »

Offline Old Jock

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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #133 on: April 24, 2019, 03:50:35 AM »
I'm with Chad, I knew I shoudln't have posted this even if I did think it informative  :boxing:

Kirby is the member I think that has it pinned down and IMHO it's nearly all Gyroscopic, with a bit of Centripital force thrown in and is proportional to speed.

At low speeds I have my own opinions but it's staying that way.

Anyways this post is primarily to apologize to Dusty and Rocker  :embarrassed:
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 06:40:07 AM by Old Jock »

Offline earemike

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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #134 on: April 24, 2019, 04:13:55 AM »
[quote author=Pizza Guzzi link=topic=100674.msg1591608#msg1591608 date=1556065530
I think the reason a rider who doesn't acknowledge the existence of counter steering but claims they steer by simply leaning does so because as they drop their shoulder say to the right this causes the right arm to extend forward slightly pushing the right grip forward - push right, lean right, go right.

[/quote]

This was me  :grin: used to turn my body a little as I set up for corners. I’d read about countersteering but had never tried (apart from the evasive manoeuvre), never noticed even when thinking of it.

After time off the bike with a knee injury I just couldn’t ride my favourite road at the same pace - everything felt stiff & I couldn’t put my finger on it...

One day I tried consciously counter steering & the bike felt great - it wasn’t until then that the coin dropped!

So those that say it’s not so can claim to not consciously do it - as was said, the physics is quite clear.  :popcorn:
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Offline fossil

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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #135 on: April 24, 2019, 05:31:11 AM »
It is quite simple if you try to test it. We did it at our last ADAC curve training because the question surfaced. You are counter steering all the time - except when you are very slow. Then you steer the bike into the turn directly. Just try it. Roll along in a pedestrian´s pace and steer into a turn. Try to observe all the actions you normally execute automatically. Then try the same at "normal" speeds. This is what convinced me that counter steering does exist and that I don´t steer the bike by leaning into the curve. But not when you are slow. Kirby did hint to the correct explanation.
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Offline Zoom Zoom

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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #136 on: April 24, 2019, 05:34:59 AM »
Wow, two pages in 24 hours or less.....

Someone posted he had been doing this in a bicycle for years and just didn't realize there was a name for it.

It's really quite simple. Next time you're riding down a decent piece of road without distractions, say 60 miles per hour in a straight line, relax the grip on the bars. In fact take your left hand off the grip completely. Now, you're traveling along relaxed and happy. Take your index finger and push on the left grip. Just a little, you don't need to go nuts right away. Remember, you're pushing the left handlebar forward, in effect trying to turn the bars to the right.

Come back and tell us what the bike does. :popcorn:

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edit: You beat me to it Fossil :bow:
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 05:36:20 AM by Zoom Zoom »

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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #137 on: April 24, 2019, 05:39:24 AM »
 
  Watch this short video....Steering into the turn is part of a slow speed turn. Is the rider counter steering before turning into the turn? Is it too subtle to see?

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SxLkRNpoRw

   

         
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 05:50:13 AM by Rough Edge racing »

Offline Darren Williams

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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #138 on: April 24, 2019, 06:34:12 AM »
Centrifugal force increases as speed in the turn increases. Therefore does it make sense that an extremely slow turn would have very little centrifugal force to deal with? If so, the need for lean would be decreased, which is what counter steering accomplishes.

And in a turn with oil, steer with the throttle!   :evil:
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Offline twowheeladdict

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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #139 on: April 24, 2019, 06:53:52 AM »
Watch any Motor Officer competition and you will quickly see that is wrong . At slow speeds you steer into the turn .

 Dusty

The only way you can do that is if you keep the bike vertical and they don't.  You always initiate the turn by countersteering.  Once the bike drops into the turn, then the wheel follows the turn. 

If you are going along at any speed including crawling along and you try and turn the handlebars to the left thinking you are going to go left you will find yourself laying on the ground on your right side.   
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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #140 on: April 24, 2019, 07:33:31 AM »
The only way you can do that is if you keep the bike vertical and they don't.  You always initiate the turn by countersteering.  Once the bike drops into the turn, then the wheel follows the turn. 

If you are going along at any speed including crawling along and you try and turn the handlebars to the left thinking you are going to go left you will find yourself laying on the ground on your right side.

  Watch the short video in my #53 post and tell me the rider isn't leaning the bike into the turn and steering into the turn at the same time..

Offline earemike

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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #141 on: April 24, 2019, 07:45:43 AM »
  Watch the short video in my #53 post and tell me the rider isn't leaning the bike into the turn and steering into the turn at the same time..

About 2:40ish coming from middle sized to large you see the countersteer on transition - slight jostle on the bars.

The small input needed would be hard for an external observer to see - for me it used to be a slight pressure on the bar.
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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #142 on: April 24, 2019, 08:00:20 AM »
About 2:40ish coming from middle sized to large you see the countersteer on transition - slight jostle on the bars.

The small input needed would be hard for an external observer to see - for me it used to be a slight pressure on the bar.

 The main point is the rider is maintaining the turn by steering and leaning into the turn...This is my point and it's something that does not happen at higher speeds when countersteering opposite the turn alone maintains the arc of the bike into the turn...

Offline Tusayan

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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #143 on: April 24, 2019, 08:16:05 AM »
If initiating a turn a very low speed requires no countersteer input as popular opinion suggests, how is the lean inwards in the direction of the  turn generated, to counteract the centrifugal force ?

I explained that in my post above - the front wheel contact patch moves sideways due to trail when the handlebars are turned. Gravity acting straight downward then leans the bike from the vertical.  This only dominates at very low speeds.

Re gyroscopic forces, they exist but if you build a bicycle with skis instead of wheels it steers and balances exactly the same way at speed, by countersteering and centrifugal force: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=phT4fVnCJ0U
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 08:35:48 AM by Tusayan »

Online Huzo

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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #144 on: April 24, 2019, 08:55:47 AM »
The only way you can do that is if you keep the bike vertical and they don't.  You always initiate the turn by countersteering.  Once the bike drops into the turn, then the wheel follows the turn. 

If you are going along at any speed including crawling along and you try and turn the handlebars to the left thinking you are going to go left you will find yourself laying on the ground on your right side.
Well allrighty then...!!!
That will do nicely.
A succinct and accurate explanation.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 09:08:31 AM by Huzo »

Offline rocker59

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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #145 on: April 24, 2019, 08:59:52 AM »
The only way you can do that is if you keep the bike vertical and they don't.  You always initiate the turn by countersteering.  Once the bike drops into the turn, then the wheel follows the turn. 

If you are going along at any speed including crawling along and you try and turn the handlebars to the left thinking you are going to go left you will find yourself laying on the ground on your right side.

 :bike-037: :thumb:
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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #146 on: April 24, 2019, 09:11:36 AM »
I think it’s become less about who is right and more about who do you want to upset the least..
When someone with a solid explanation based on physics enters the argument, it’ll be time to sit up again and take notice.
At the moment, the core WG respondents remind me of the first divisions of a single called organism.
A fair bit of jostling for sides before hostilities commence.
Most people have figured out by now where the strength lies. I can’t reach the dump button from my side..
Bugger..!
BTW
If initiating a turn a very low speed requires no countersteer input as popular opinion suggests, how is the lean inwards in the direction of the  turn generated, to counteract the centrifugal force ?

 You mean like Kirby ?

 No one is arguing counter steering , it might be good to actually read what some are saying , fair enough >

 Dusty

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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #147 on: April 24, 2019, 09:18:17 AM »
Well allrighty then...!!!
That will do nicely.
A succinct and accurate explanation.

 Except isn't , sorry Huzo , pay attention to what Kirby is saying .

 Dusty

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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #148 on: April 24, 2019, 09:31:08 AM »
You mean like Kirby ?

 No one is arguing counter steering , it might be good to actually read what some are saying , fair enough >

 Dusty
Just be nice Dusty and no need to answer my PM.
You just did.
I have read every word of each person’s post and agree with some people completely, some a little bit and some not at all.
The ones that say they steer directly into a turn at very low speeds ARE disputing the countersteering argument and it is the only aspect I fundamentally disagree with. There are a myriad of views expressed here (including my own) that could well do with a good going over by someone who has a sound knowlege of Physics, not a bunch of crusty old riders who have digested a lifetime of experiences and come up with a sometimes flawed set of beliefs which are offered up as truths.
I was thinking of admitting that I’m no different, but I may be worse than most on this.
We all love Kirby and I place a hell of a lot of faith in his take on things and have been put back in my place on one occasion by him when spruiking  on a topic that I had become a little vague on, so no need to sing his praises to me, I’m aware of his credentials..
I’ve obviously been given more than a fair go on this topic, so I should just leave off.
I have learned a lot though and not all the knowlege gained was about countersteering...

Offline Tusayan

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Re: Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest
« Reply #149 on: April 24, 2019, 09:42:48 AM »
The ones that say they steer directly into a turn at very low speeds ARE disputing the countersteering argument and it is the only aspect I fundamentally disagree with.

Both the countersteering and trail effects exist simultaneously, but countersteering dominates strongly once you are above walking speed. 

When you are riding very slowly you typically turn the bars through large angles, moving the front wheel contact patch to the right and left of the bike's CG which generates a leaning moment in the same direction the bars are turned. That works at low speed.  When you are going faster, you can initiate lean by turning the bars only through a small angle in opposition to the intended direction, and centrifugal force leans the bike.  The interesting thing is that there is a speed at which the two effects balance and in theory turning the bars has no effect.  In practice if that occurs we accelerate slightly to make the bike countersteer.

Gyroscopic forces don't play a  huge role except in stabilizing the bike & steering at speed.  If you want to design a motorcycle to steer very responsively when at speed, at the cost of stability, you reduce the size of the front wheel to minimize gyroscopic forces and the bike countersteers with less rider effort.

Most of the above is easily demonstrated with a bicycle.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 09:53:45 AM by Tusayan »

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