Rollerisation of the 8V.

[Scottv8]

Well......that wasn't too bad at all, 4 hours from taking the first spanner out of the tool box, to putting the last one back in.....good times 

Didnt even need to take the heads off as my valve spring compressor works directly on the spring, was a bit of a faff, but easier than taking the heads right off.
Of course, I haven't done a compression check yet, so I don't know if the head gaskets have sealed again, so I may still have to strip it right down if they haven't, but fingers crossed, all will be well.

Now to drop the sump and check the big end bearings But as at least 60% of the DLC had gone off all tappets, not to mention the 37k miles, i'm expecting there to be a good bit of wear, so I will be changing them out anyways, but the dealer tells me there are 2 different types so I need to find out the 'colour' of my crank 

[Wayne Orwig]

Now to drop the sump and check the big end bearings But as at least 60% of the DLC had gone off all tappets, not to mention the 37k miles, i'm expecting there to be a good bit of wear, so I will be changing them out anyways, but the dealer tells me there are 2 different types so I need to find out the 'colour' of my crank 

My bearing shells were 'pitted'. No real wear, and they even measured correctly. But there was a slight knocking at idle with hot oil.
And I never did find any paint marks on the crank. Gave me an excuse to buy a larger micrometer.

[pete roper]

Paint mark is on the crank web. If you look at the old shells there may be a lick of paint on the side of them as well which makes them identifiable.

How did you prevent the valves from dropping into the bore if you left the head on?

Pete

[Kev m]

Paint mark is on the crank web. If you look at the old shells there may be a lick of paint on the side of them as well which makes them identifiable.

How did you prevent the valves from dropping into the bore if you left the head on?

Pete

Maybe he pressurized the cylinder.

[Wayne Orwig]

Paint mark is on the crank web. If you look at the old shells there may be a lick of paint on the side of them as well which makes them identifiable.

The shells also have part numbers stamped in them, but they aren't translatable to Guzzi numbers as far as I know.

[Wayne Orwig]

Maybe he pressurized the cylinder.

I was going to try that, or a rope in the cylinder, but I needed to make a custom spring compressor, so I gave up on that shortcut..

[pete roper]

Maybe he pressurized the cylinder.

Once you have the rocker gear/cambox off the only thing left to hold the head on are the two long bolts that clamp the back of the camchain tunnel and these should be loosened to prevent the risk of warpage when the tension is taken off the main studs. You can't pressurise the cylinder with air or do the rope trick because the head would just lift. This is why I'm fascinated as I can't work out how it could be done, at least not in a way that wouldn't be more time consuming and difficult than simply taking the head off?

Pete

[Kev m]

Once you have the rocker gear/cambox off the only thing left to hold the head on are the two long bolts that clamp the back of the camchain tunnel and these should be loosened to prevent the risk of warpage when the tension is taken off the main studs. You can't pressurise the cylinder with air or do the rope trick because the head would just lift. This is why I'm fascinated as I can't work out how it could be done, at least not in a way that wouldn't be more time consuming and difficult than simply taking the head off?

Pete

Ahhh, gotcha.... then maybe it was elves... 

[Muzz]

I had purchased one of those spring compressors when I ran an automotive class as a teacher, I believe KD made them. Very ingenious. If we could not use compressed air we would put the piston at TDC and use a cunningly shaped bit of alloy to reach in the plug hole and push the edge of the valve up. We usually found some way as that particular room did not have compressed air.

[Scottv8]

Yes, i had the pistons at TDC and the valves pretty much stayed there, if they fell they only went about quarter inch so i gently pulled them back up to put the collects back in (they are tricky little buggers ain't they).
It was taking all the tank and plastics off that I considered was a particular pain in the arse which I managed to avoid.

Had a look at my shells and they are showing typical 37k mile wear so i'm quite happy with that.
My dealer is having trouble matching them up though, as has been said, the part number on the back of the shell didn't help him and the colouring that I found didn't help either. Not sure where to go with that really 

I think I am going to put it all back together and run it for 1k miles or so while I sort out the right bearings, then strip it out again to replace them.
Wont be a bad thing to have another change of oil to make sure as much DLC is out of the system as possible.

Will give the oil cooling system a clean out tomorrow, then put it all back together and see if it runs 

[Scottv8]

Paint mark is on the crank web. If you look at the old shells there may be a lick of paint on the side of them as well which makes them identifiable.

Pete

I have one dab of black paint on one web and two dabs of peppermint green paint on the other, white and blue on the side of the cap / rod join.
The dealer cant match any of that so I am going to have to look into it a bit more i guess

[Kiwi Dave]

I had purchased one of those spring compressors when I ran an automotive class as a teacher, I believe KD made them. Very ingenious. If we could not use compressed air we would put the piston at TDC and use a cunningly shaped bit of alloy to reach in the plug hole and push the edge of the valve up. We usually found some way as that particular room did not have compressed air.

Moto Guzzi supplied one with their kit to change the cam and valve springs on the hydro motors.  Worked a treat.  However, I think the instructions were to use BDC, not TDC (otherwise the piston would simply move, I'm surmising).

[pete roper]

Nah, it has to be TDC, you just have to be very precise or lock the crank. At eithe BDC in the cycle one or other of the valves will be open.

I'll try and grab some pics of crank and rods for you.

Pete

[pete roper]

It was taking all the tank and plastics off that I considered was a particular pain in the arse which I managed to avoid.

Just re-read this. If you didn't take the tank off how did you manage to get th the tensioner plug on the right hand head? I'm assuming this is a small tank Stelvio?

Pete

[Scottv8]

Yes it is a small tank version, i just slipped the sprocket off the cam shafts and back on again without touching the tensioners.

[pete roper]

But as soon as the sprockets are off the camshaft the plungers will extend and there won't be enough slack in the chain to get them back on again. If the chains are absolutely knackered it might be possible but I can't understand how you did it otherwise? As the plungers extend they'll fill with oil and then hydraulically lock. Unless you've collapsed the left one or removed the cap over the right one I can't see a way to easily depress them once the sprockets are off the cams. I'm glad you managed it somehow but I would strongly advise others not to follow your example.

Pete

[Scottv8]

yeah i did it that way when i first stripped out the left side to take pictures of the wear for the warranty claim.
did it before i read that your supposed to drain down the plunger.

Do they not charge off the oil pump? So wouldnt extend until the engine was running?

I gently levered the sprocket off with a screw driver and then partially screwed the bolt back in to centre the sprocket going back on and again gently levered it back on with the a screw driver. Wasnt really hard, but didn't just slip on without a bit of work.

Bear in mind, I still haven't ran it up yet, things could go horribly wrong when I do, will let you know 

[pete roper]

They don't 'charge' as you say directly off the oil pump. The way it works is that the tensioning plungers are a sort of tube within a tube, like a telescope if you like. At one end there is a hole and inside the assembly there is a ball that seats on the hole and a spring behind it to keep the ball seated.

This sits in the wall of the cylinder with the valve end sitting in a reservoir. On the left hand side this is in the cylinder casting itself and on the right hand side it is on the valley side of the casting and covered by a plug.

The way they tension is that when the engine is started, if they have bled down while sitting, (Some are worse than others, I have no idea why?) when the engine starts the chains flap about causing the tensioner blade to oscillate on its pivot and this in turn causes the tensioner plunger to telescope in and out rapidly.

Every time it extends it will draw oil into the inside of the tensioner from the reservoir but when the oscillating tensioner blade tries to push it back the ball seats inside the tensioner plunger so the oil can't escape back out. After a few cycles the plunger 'fills up', the slack is taken out of the chain and the rattling stops!

The problem that will occur when you pull the sprockets off without physically bleeding down the left tensioner and removing the cap over the right one is that when the tension is taken off the chain the spring inside the plunger will extend the 'Telescope' and residual oil from the reservoir will fill the plunger. This in turn pushes the blade out but because the plunger is full of oil it means that there will be insufficient slack in the chain for the sprocket to be slipped back onto the end of the camshaft. With the left hand side it will be particularly difficult to then bleed that plunger down again as the chain will be in the way and there will be great difficulty in finding something to lever against. You also risk damaging the tensioner blade and replacing that is an engine out job!

If you got yours back on again OK then you're probably golden but it really isn't the way I'd recommend going about it. Turn your engine over by hand a view times and double check the cam timing but I reckon you've probably nailed it. It's a bit like playing Russian Roulette with several chambers loaded though.

Pete

[Scottv8]

Ah right I understand.

I always have been unorthodoxed in my approach to things, lets hope i am lucky this time.
All seems fine, but the start up will confirm i guess.......

[Phang]

regarding the use of the new valve springs (#B013517) instead of the old spring+shim, is there any reason NOT to use it on the exhaust valves?

I ask because I have extra new valve springs B013517.

[pete roper]

No reason I can think of. The final 1200 bikes all have the same springs on all valves I think. Same as Cali 14 I'll bet.

Pete

[Phang]

thanks Pete, that's reassuring.

I have checked the parts diagram of late 1200 engines, all four valves using the same B013517 spring but at the same time the cylinder head has a different part number too. So I thought I better ask before I replace all the valve springs with the B013517 springs.

I am quite amazed that Scottv8 can put the camshaft sprocket back without releasing the tension on the chain. It was a tight fit even with slack in the chain, lots of swearing when me and my mate did it a few months ago

Phang

[Wayne Orwig]

I have checked the parts diagram of late 1200 engines, all four valves using the same B013517 spring but at the same time the cylinder head has a different part number too.

That would make me nervous, putting the new springs into and old revision head.
I think I would measure them, then decide.

[Phang]

That would make me nervous, putting the new springs into and old revision head.
I think I would measure them, then decide.

I will measure and compare the two springs when I get my hands dirty. I did compare the two springs with naked eye few months ago when I helped out a mate to rollerised his bike, can't tell there is a visible difference.

I think the difference in part numbers could be due to the fact that the later rollered cylinder head came with valves installed instead of bare cylinder head in early parts catalogue.

[Scottv8]

Set of rollers on the bay if anyone is interested 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/camshaft-MOTO-GUZZI-STELVIO-1200-4V-2008-2009-2010-2011-2012-2013-2014-2015-2016-/282247499002?hash=item41b7430cfa:g:Y1sAAOSwHMJYIGYx

[pete roper]

Set of rollers on the bay if anyone is interested 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/camshaft-MOTO-GUZZI-STELVIO-1200-4V-2008-2009-2010-2011-2012-2013-2014-2015-2016-/282247499002?hash=item41b7430cfa:g:Y1sAAOSwHMJYIGYx

'B' or 'C' kit bike only. While they will fit any 1200 head if you own a later model with the 'Floating' rocker covers you'll need new, expensive, rocker covers and long plug tubes as well. It would also do early 1200 Sport but with them and 'C' kit bikes you'll also need shims and seals etc.

Pete

[pete roper]

Sorry, just getting back to this. I've been as busy as a dog with three dicks so apologies for the delay.

Crank is marked so.



This is obviously a 'Black' crank.

Bearing shells?

Red mark on side of shell.



I this has washed off in service you can check the bearing identifying # which is NOT the Guzzi part # on the back of the shell. In the car of the red bearing this is 0315A and corresponds to Guzzi part# 875243.

Blue mark on side of shell.



Bearing identifier-blue bearing is 0215A which corresponds to Guzzi part #875244

Pete

[Rat12]

I'm just about to "rollerise" my Stelvio but I'd appreciate some advice before I start. I've taken off the tank to get better access to the chain tensioner plug(s).

The RHS plug is 36mm (looks enormous)? 

I assume the answer to my next question is no but I'll ask anyway. Instead of de-pressurising the LHS chain tensioner with a screwdriver can one use the same technique as the RHS by removing the LHS plug? 



 

John

[pete roper]

No, you can't. The tensioner for the left hand chain sits on the outside of the barrel. The only reason there is a plug on that side at all is because they have to machine the bore for the tensioner in the barrel.

[Rat12]

Pete, many thanks for the reply.

John