V7 Classic with 4 valve heads, Dyno run

[Aaron D.]

That sounds REALLY great!

[Chuck in Indiana]

That sounds REALLY great!

Thanks! It *does* sound bitchin.. I like everything about it, the idle, on throttle, and overrun makes a little wee come out. (Roper content) 

[zedXmick]

That sounds great Chuck,bet that grin inside your helmet on twistie roads is a mile wide!    

[Chuck in Indiana]

Ok, here's mixture at 4500 on the left cylinder

 
Rats.. Photobucket is screwing up again.. it will only show one of 4 printouts for what ever reason. 

[Chuck in Indiana]

That sounds great Chuck,bet that grin inside your helmet on twistie roads is a mile wide!    

There's no twisty roads around here, but I'm having more fun with this engine than a guy ought to be allowed. 

[kevdog3019]

Interesting Chuck.  Still trying to bring up that video for viewing; won't load up for me.  Anyhow, yep, we're pretty close in numbers and you see how differently your ass dyno feels it.  What is the torque you're pulling?  Interesting to compare that.  Amazing you were close to perfect on the jetting out of the gate.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Interesting Chuck.  Still trying to bring up that video for viewing; won't load up for me.  Anyhow, yep, we're pretty close in numbers and you see how differently your ass dyno feels it.  What is the torque you're pulling?  Interesting to compare that.  Amazing you were close to perfect on the jetting out of the gate.

No torque reading.  It has some.  I was looking for mixture.

[kevdog3019]

My take overall is that converting stock V7 heads to 4-valve is a good bang <I'm assuming> for the buck.  39 to 55 is huge gains.  If he gets it to 60 with another tweak or two that's incredible.  I'll tell you what, with the difference in how big my engine feels, I can't imagine 55-60 ponies.  Guzzi should wake up and take notes here.  These are pushrods we're talking.  Imagine some kind of high cam design like on the BB.   

[Kev m]

My take overall is that converting stock V7 heads to 4-valve is a good bang <I'm assuming> for the buck.  39 to 55 is huge gains.  If he gets it to 60 with another tweak or two that's incredible.  I'll tell you what, with the difference in how big my engine feels, I can't imagine 55-60 ponies.  Guzzi should wake up and take notes here.  These are pushrods we're talking.  Imagine some kind of high cam design like on the BB.   

Well, we just received (via a journalist review of the latest Racer when he visited Lake Como to ride it at Guzzi's behest) the verification that there is a test mule V7 in the 65 hp range running around Italy... so MAYBE that's just what the factory has already done.

we were gossiping to Guzzi staff and one mentioned that the factory does have a rather special V7 currently wandering around northern Italy. This engine knocks out 65 hp, with even more torque

In case you missed the thread:

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=78584.msg1234436#msg1234436

[Chuck in Indiana]

Dogwalker mentioned in passing that soon I may not be the only one in the world with a hemi small block.. 
I personally think it would be a GREAT move for Guzzi.  Probably won't happen..

[Kev m]

Dogwalker mentioned in passing that soon I may not be the only one in the world with a hemi small block.. 
I personally think it would be a GREAT move for Guzzi.  Probably won't happen..

Actually this journalist, Dogwalker, and EDIT LEAFMAN60 Lowryter (when he visited the factory last year) have all professed to how reps at the factory have said they are aware of the V7 power levels and are working on it (and maybe Galluzi or the Piaggio guys that were showing off the Bagger and the Eldo mentioned it to one of the members herer as well).

So I'm thinking it seems more likely than not something is in the works and coming...

MAYBE THAT is the "new mid-sized" motor they're talking about - i.e. an 850 4V or something like that.

Makes more sense than an "ALL NEW" mid-sized motor.

[Chuck in Indiana]

We can only hope. I remember the Ippo..that would have been a killer bike.

[kevdog3019]

More than likely it will be based off the BB platform.  I hope I'm wrong.  What I'm liking most about my Super Lario is the weight.  It's very light and I personally wouldn't trade that for HP. 

[Kev m]

More than likely it will be based off the BB platform.

I don't know why you are saying that.

Dogwalker, EDIT LEAFMAN60 Lowryter, AND AUTHOR OF THIS ARTCILE seem to each have clearly stated they have been told about a specific variant of the V7 line with more hp in the pipeline.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I don't know why you are saying that.

Dogwalker, Lowryter, AND AUTHOR OF THIS ARTCILE seem to each have clearly stated they have been told about a specific variant of the V7 line with more hp in the pipeline.

Yep. The line forms behind me. Unless it's a cruiser  of course..

[Vasco DG]

They wouldn't of bothered designing and re-tooling the gearbox for a model they were only expecting to sell for a couple of years.

If you look at product development Guzzi style going back to the advent of the very earliest V-twins, (and probably beyond if you need to go to ancient history.) you will see very, very few 'Clean Sheet' designs. What tends to happen is that to a greater or lesser degree one or several of the major components will be changed and a product line developed that will continue much longer than other manufacturers will persist with a design. Why? Because Guzzi, even when part of a larger manufacturing organisation, is too small to endlessly spit out brand new designs and tool up for them and then only produce for a few years. Whenever that pattern has been broken the result has usually been very risky if not catastrophic for the company but let's look at the evolution. First of the Big Blocks.

V7-700cc loop frame four speed, then taken out to 750cc for the Ambo. From there it gained another 100cc and an extra gear. After this the next major change was to the frame and suspension with the adoption of the Tonti frame. That had minor changes to both engine and driveline but remained essentially the same for decades but the next major change was the Early Hi-Cam and swap to the Spine Frame. This was an utter disaster and nearly did for the company once and for all, the engine sucked every lire the company had and was, unfortunately, still a disappointment, it also over-taxed other components and introduced reliability problems with both driveline and ancillaries. Unfortunately the Hi-Cam was abandoned and the engineers further refined the old 2V donk but the next major components to get a freshen up were the gearbox and bevelbox which were greatly and significantly improved for the V11 Spineframe series. That package, coupled with the venerable but now horribly dated Tonti series enabled the BB to soldier on until finally the company got *Some* money and was able to design and build the early CARC bikes. While these were being sold, finally, the Hi-Cam was re-visited and all that was good about it was incorporated in the Nuovo Hi Cam while the bad was dumped. The new engine being lighter, more powerful and easier to both build and work on than its predecessor. That essential motive package has been the backbone of BB production for almost a decade and despite the problems with the flat tappet design has proven overall to be a popular and satisfactory design.

Small blocks have had a similar although less varied development history, the main changes apart from bore and stroke being the change to the ill fated 4V heads of the Lario, Imola/Targa series. With the outstanding success of the design after its adoption of 'Retro' styling though it is obvious that if the cash cow is to continue to be milked then it will need to have its perceived issues addressed. First among these is its 'Lack of Power' which is all very well but the fact remained that any increase in power would still be being pushed through the same crappy old gearbox designed to be cheaply built for a poverty pack machine in the mid 1970's. The design had already been asked to take a 50% hike in cubic capacity with the associated torque. There is a limit to what you can do to keep things reliable. Realising this and knowing the popularity of the platform it was imperative that before any major re-design or upgrade to the powerplant the gearbox and quite probably the clutch and bevelbox were going to need a re-design and what happened last year? We got the V7-II whose major, if generally unappreciated, change was the Nuovo Six Speed for the smallblock. Yes, lots of folks are saying "I don't need an extra gear." Well, maybe not now, but if the next evolutionary step is going to be a higher reving, shorter stroke, 4VPC motor adopting more of Piagio's modern technology, (I can hear the corn cob pipe stems splintering from here! ) like Tri-map, ABS, TC in its more sophisticated RBW form all controlled by either the 5 or 7SM or a new controller altogether then you will appreciate another ratio, and anyway, the market expects it!

If and when this new engine does make an appearance I'm hoping that as well as it being installed in a 'Classic' styled bike for Hipster/Dinosaur consumption it will also be, eventually, coupled with a modern frame and suspension. Maybe even, like the Big Block motive package, being included in a range of packages from 'Sporty Lightweight' through to 'Mini Stelvio'. Now THAT would be cookin'

We'll see.

[Chuck in Indiana]

  That was really good, Pete. I hope it comes to fruition.

[Vasco DG]

Oh so do I! A Nuovo Small Block, little, light, 75/80 HP, proper forks, reactive rear drive and decent rising rate suspension at the back, short wheelbase with the weight carried low? I'd be all over it like a rash!

Needless to say someone would want to stick a Windjammer on one and there will be a host of complaints about how the alternator doesn't put out as much power as Chernobyl just before the meltdown but you really can't help some people. No doubt there will also be complaints that it won't have knobbly tires or a beard and goggle rack but I'm sure the aftermarket will rise to the challenge.....

Pete

[mwrenn]

Thanks! It *does* sound bitchin.. I like everything about it, the idle, on throttle, and overrun makes a little wee come out. (Roper content) 

She really sounds good Chuck!!  Man, I think I did pee my pants a little....
Good job on the jetting, she's dialed in good, she's making some good power too!
I'll post up a video of mine on the dyno...fun stuff!

[mwrenn]

Oh so do I! A Nuovo Small Block, little, light, 75/80 HP, proper forks, reactive rear drive and decent rising rate suspension at the back, short wheelbase with the weight carried low? I'd be all over it like a rash!

Needless to say someone would want to stick a Windjammer on one and there will be a host of complaints about how the alternator doesn't put out as much power as Chernobyl just before the meltdown but you really can't help some people. No doubt there will also be complaints that it won't have knobbly tires or a beard and goggle rack but I'm sure the aftermarket will rise to the challenge.....

Pete

+1!!  A nice light bike like that, I'd buy one...
It would have to have a coffe cup holder though...LOL

[mwrenn]

So here's a cell phone vid...not the best, but you get the idea.

[Vasco DG]

+1!!  A nice light bike like that, I'd buy one...
It would have to have a coffe cup holder though...LOL

Beard and goggle rack could double as cup holder, but only steam-punk type cup covered with brass fittings and barnacles!

Pete

[Vasco DG]

Dogwalker, Lowryter, AND AUTHOR OF THIS ARTCILE seem to each have clearly stated they have been told about a specific variant of the V7 line with more hp in the pipeline.

I've also heard rumblings from various sources but whether it will be based on BB or SB I have NFI! The fact remains that common sense dictates that they produce something more 'Competitive' to stick on the front of the Nuovo SB gearbox. With the impending demise of the Griso in its current form it would seem to be sensible to produce something to at least attempt to fill that niche. Maybe something even 'Sportier'?

The only thing currently missing from the rumours is actual evidence. Long before the 8V 1200's and the Cali 14 were available pics were surfacing of bikes under development. Unless the average punter and oportunistic photo-journos are too gormless to pick a new motor we have, as yet, no evidence that such a beast exists. They will be road testing it around Mandello with a P plate on it.

Pete

[Kev m]

Well, the 1400 was easy to spot. But I don't recall Guzzi being a prime target for the motorcycle paparazzi. And perhaps if it really is just a motor upgrade to the existing platform it may not be all that easy to spot.

<shrugs and remains optimistic>

[Chuck in Indiana]

She really sounds good Chuck!!  Man, I think I did pee my pants a little....
Good job on the jetting, she's dialed in good, she's making some good power too!
I'll post up a video of mine on the dyno...fun stuff!

Can't see your video (or mine). Must be because I have flash disabled. Yeah, it *was* fun stuff to do. I must have looked harmless enough because the dyno operator bent the rules and let me be in the dyno room.  Both guys really seemed to like the Lario, and the story behind it.
I wouldn't have done it except I was wondering whether I should go to the 268 AB instead of the AR atomizer to fatten up the mid range, and was wondering about whether the 130 mains might be a little small. Apparently no changes necessary.  Got my $37.50 worth.  (Guzzi content)  Max hp was never on the radar when I built this, I was looking for reliability in my touring bike after the problems with the 4 valve. When it turned out that it is every bit as much fun as the stock engine..and more powerful.. it was just icing on the cake. 

[Vasco DG]

Chuck, one thing Mark and I have found is that quite often Dyno operators try and dictate what *You* need. Thing is, while we may be deficient in knwoledge of how to get what we want in terms of info its  US Who are paying the piper and therefore we will call the bloody tune!

We ain't that smart, but we are Guzzi owners, (Cue suspenders snap!) so we like to get our stretched penny worth!

Dyno is a great tool but real world data logging seems to produce a better 'Road' motor in my experience. (Cue cries of 'Heresy' from those with no idea and a vested interest!)

Pete

[Chuck in Indiana]

Well, <snapping suspenders myself> go ahead and hook that data logger up to my DelOrtos and Dyna.. I'll give it a try.

[sign216]

if the next evolutionary step is going to be a higher reving, shorter stroke, 4VPC motor adopting more of Piagio's modern technolog

I am not looking for a high reving short stroke that narrows the powerband. 

It's the only bike out there with a Heron head, which gives good torque down low and I like it.

Of course the market place (or more usually, the magazines) demand something different for their perceived "needs."

[kevdog3019]

I am not looking for a high reving short stroke that narrows the powerband. 

It's the only bike out there with a Heron head, which gives good torque down low and I like it.

Of course the market place (or more usually, the magazines) demand something different for their perceived "needs."

It won't narrow the band but rather expand the band (upward).  If you think they will significantly increase hp and keep torque where it currently is then you're mistaken. Everything will rise together and that pull you feel off the BB will come more into play on the SB (relatively speaking). 4-valve heads will keep it fueling in the upper rpm's better than 2-valve heads and it won't start giving up as quickly as the current Sb tends.

[kevdog3019]

I've also heard rumblings from various sources but whether it will be based on BB or SB I have NFI! The fact remains that common sense dictates that they produce something more 'Competitive' to stick on the front of the Nuovo SB gearbox. With the impending demise of the Griso in its current form it would seem to be sensible to produce something to at least attempt to fill that niche. Maybe something even 'Sportier'?

The only thing currently missing from the rumours is actual evidence. Long before the 8V 1200's and the Cali 14 were available pics were surfacing of bikes under development. Unless the average punter and oportunistic photo-journos are too gormless to pick a new motor we have, as yet, no evidence that such a beast exists. They will be road testing it around Mandello with a P plate on it.

Pete

Right on!  I'm not getting my hopes up about anything yet.  No leaks and talk is cheap.  A true "small block" is all that interests me, and a big block is just that... whether it has a shorter stroke or not; it still adds weight.