Got rollered!

[Vasco DG]

I don't think every time, only if you are replacing barrels and pistons.

In reality the very accurate squish setting is principally for emissions reasons, oxides of nitrogen mainly.

Pete

[roofus]

So I take my 2012 Norge in for it's 20,000km service. I make a note with the service manage to have the mechanic check to see if the motor has flat or roller tappets. The mechanic has to change the plugs and adjust the valves so it's not a big reach from there!

According to Piaggio, and based on the engine serial number, my bike has roller tappets, but I want to be sure . . .

When I get the bike back, there is no note on the work order as to the kind of tappets the motor has and the mechanic who worked on my bike is off for the day. The service manager has no idea what kind of tappets I have either!

I ride the bike home and it is running very nicely!

The next day I drop back to talk to the mechanic who worked on my bike. He is the head mechanic at the dealership. When I ask him whether I have roller tappets or flat tappets he looks at me blankly and says "What?"

So I take a different tack and ask him what valve clearances he used in tuning the bike because the clearances are different for flat and roller engines. He says I can't remember!!!! He must have used the correct setting because the motor is purring!!!

Should I be looking for a new dealer for service? It's a rhetorical rant not a question.

If this dolt had used the valve clearances for a roller tappet motor on  motor with flat tappets, I presume the engine would not be running very well at all . . . am I correct in assuming this?

[Vasco DG]

The difference in clearance will make little difference to the way the engine runs if you are running a closed loop map. Open loop? Different matter. If the clearances are set at the wider settings it will make the top end fractionally noisier.

Pete

[roofus]

The difference in clearance will make little difference to the way the engine runs if you are running a closed loop map. Open loop? Different matter. If the clearances are set at the wider settings it will make the top end fractionally noisier.

Pete

I am running the most recent map from MG but I don't know if is open or closed.

[lucian]

I believe all the factory maps are installed closed loop for emission reasons.

[Vasco DG]

Yup, that's why you have a couple of O2 sensors in the 'zorsts.

Pete

[Xlratr]

Look, I'm rollerising Mark's bike on Tuesday. .

Pete, Mark, how did it go? 
John

[Vasco DG]

Went good, but clear evidence of wear. I'll post pics tomorrow.

Suggestion? If you have a flat tappet bike? Get your shop to look at it. Pulling a camboxes costs an hour. Trashing your engine will cost a lot more.

Pete

[Xlratr]

Went good, but clear evidence of wear. I'll post pics tomorrow.

Suggestion? If you have a flat tappet bike? Get your shop to look at it. Pulling a camboxes costs an hour. Trashing your engine will cost a lot more.

Pete

Very interested to hear the first ride reports with rollers and fuelling feedback! :-)
John

[Xlratr]

Been busy this evening working on the mapping and after a couple more iterations, the "bite" is now back. Can't feel any performance drop vs the way my flat tappets performed anymore. All's good!

My theory is that the cylinder fueling balance is really important, and I tried to get that as close as possible. Here's a little view of running up through the gears. The Red line is RPM, the Green line is Throttle Position (4.15 is maximum throttle), and what looks almost like one thicker line is actually two separate lines showing air fuel ratio for left and right. They're pretty much exactly where I want them at different throttle loads. On the standard map you'll find some quite significant deviations between the two.

Anyhow, just wanted to say she's running really strong again!    :-)
John

[lucian]

  I have been experimenting with several maps since rollerizing my Griso. So far I have found that beetle's map ran well but lacked the kick in the pants in the higher rev's. I then tried the factory 03 and it had tremendous power throughout but totally lacked smoothness at 2 to 3500 rpm and just felt unrefined, but definitely radical under accell. I now have the factory 68 map in and it fuels very well, smooth and linear delivery but lacks the radical pull in the higher rev's that the 03 offers. I guess it's a trade off, power or smoothness in the common cruise range, for now I'll stay with the latter but it sure would be nice to have the best of both. I re-checked with my dealer and they use the 03 map on all the ones they do. I am sure the guru's will get to the bottom of this.

[bib]

Hi All ... thanks for the postings, good reading. Am posting from NSW Oz.
My Norge is now at 33,000 kms. She runs really well on Mark's earlier map (have not installed the latest yet), starting and idle problem free.
I now notice a audible 'knocking' from the top end (screwdriver as sounding rod against cam covers) that has been slowly increasing in volume beginning from about 25000 kms.
This is an earlier 2012 AA model and I fairly certain (not positive) it has the flat tappets.
I did a valve clearance check a week ago and the exhausts had not moved but inlets were a wee bit tighter than specified L&R so adjusted them back to specs. Last check was at 25000 kms.
So in short the top end has progressively become noisier and I am becoming concerned, but the bike is fun to ride and going well.
Took the bike to a motorcycle mechanic who admitted was not conversant with Euro bikes but had a listen anyway and thought the top end noise was not 'exceptional'.

Do I disassemble the top end to examine because of the clatter and examine for tappet damage?
If I do this and find evidence of damage what are my chances of MG providing Roller replacements given the time of 4 years from new?
Bike has service history records. 

Do I continue riding the beast or forget that and strip the top end to check?

Not stupid question as I realise one cannot be sure unless visually examined BUT am seriously short of time and if I am to drop the top end I am considering the replacement kit anyway,
and that is way more expensive than can be taken lightly.

Wish I was close to a MG expert but alas .. so am really glad for the forum.

[Vasco DG]

Where are you in NSW? I've just bought a wrecked Griso in Queensland and will be going to pick it up soon. If you're anywhere on the way I could drop in and check it out for you.

[bib]

Where are you in NSW? I've just bought a wrecked Griso in Queensland and will be going to pick it up soon. If you're anywhere on the way I could drop in and check it out for you.

Hi Pete ... have emailed you on that ... "I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse" happily accepted!
If it works out you have a night's accommodation or at the very least a great home cooked meal.

[beetle]

Post roller logging run. It was running a bit rich. 




Right. Ignore this log. Found a error in the conversion during logging. Proper data log in new post.

[Vasco DG]

Hyuck, hyuck!

[Xlratr]

Post roller logging run. It was running a bit rich. 

Wow! Assuming it was running well before the conversion, the rollers have made a huge difference! Some of those numbers even look border line combustible!
john

[Vasco DG]

Big difference, I was really chuffed I'd picked it right!

Pete

[lucian]

8500 rpm's really? Would cutting back on co trim help with the rich fueling ?

[rbond]

Don't want to butt in, however, does the V7C small blocks have this potential problem too? I have a 2012 model, should I be looking out for 'rapid' valve clearance changes?

[Chuck in Indiana]

Don't want to butt in, however, does the V7C small blocks have this potential problem too? I have a 2012 model, should I be looking out for 'rapid' valve clearance changes?

That would be no.

[tonyduc]

Well, I am officially rollerized, Not a bad job thanks to Pete's well done instructions.

Can someone point to where Pete's instructions are for the kit install? My 2011 Stelvio just turned 4,000 miles, no symptoms yet but would like to have the tutorial for the swap in my back pocket. Thanks Pete!

[lucian]

Here ya go.



http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=78160.0

[beetle]

8500 rpm's really?

Yes. How do you think maps get built?

Would cutting back on co trim help with the rich fueling ?

Somewhat, but it in this particular case I think we are looking at a delta-fuel issue. The roller cams are sufficiently different (plus the narrower valve clearance) to cause a change of a magnitude I wasn't expecting. Don't forget, every pipe will be different. It's important to remember that the open-loop maps are customized to a specific tune of the pipe, valve clearance and intake. I reckon the 03 map wouldn't be tickety-boo either if we had an AFR map for it. My bike ran great like that. Why wouldn't it? Stupid-rich everywhere makes an 8V run buttery-smooth. Also makes them run cooler. It's not good for them.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Stupid-rich everywhere makes an 8V run buttery-smooth. Also makes them run cooler. It's not good for them.

So many don't realize this. Doesn't matter what kind of engine. Rich covers a lot of carburation sins. Washing down the cylinder walls makes you pay for that.

[Vasco DG]

Just a bit.........




 

Pete

[beetle]

After I found a conversion error in my logging setup, I did another run today. Note the difference! This is with the same map I ran post roller conversion. Pete, I'm sorry to say your brickwall doesn't exist. No idea what you experienced, but I  experienced no such phenomena, and the (proper) log shows no funnies. It needs a bee's dick more fuel in certain areas, but you could run this map without issue.

[pauldaytona]

Pete you didn't measure cam timing before/after, to solve all mystery?
Beetle, you see no other result as before as I understand?

[Xlratr]

After I found a conversion error in my logging setup, I did another run today. Note the difference! This is with the same map I ran post roller conversion. Pete, I'm sorry to say your brickwall doesn't exist. No idea what you experienced, but I  experienced no such phenomena, and the (proper) log shows no funnies. It needs a bee's dick more fuel in certain areas, but you could run this map without issue.

That looks much more plausible. I think petrol/air won't even ignite at some of the Lambda numbers in the earlier log you showed.

As Paul also asked, did you feel absolutely no difference pre/post conversion?
With my Stelvio there was, just a bit, and it needed some adjustments.
This is basically what I ended up with, Left and Right - although I did make a couple of small adjustments subsequent to this log. (I find it takes a minute to get your head around looking at a map with columns and lines reversed  . And my numbers are in AFR, not Lambda)



John

[Vasco DG]

Pete you didn't measure cam timing before/after, to solve all mystery?
Beetle, you see no other result as before as I understand?

Paul, we didn't have the time. I will, while I'm organising the engine swap on my bike, do a full graphing of both types of timing system, but this IS something I have to work in around my normal work schedule. I'm not retired yet, unfortunately!

Pete